Byzantium

What went wrong?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Palaiologos_dynasty
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velbazhd
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Crusade
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

serbshits kept trying to conquer it
supported anyone who fought them
even the last serb emperor was ready to march and taken Constantinople before he suddenly died young

Turks

Enrico Dandolo did nothing wrong.

They were attacked from everywhere until the venetian jews and the crusaders took over. Then turks came.

Venitian jew merchants.

Evil satanic tulmudic khazar jews

What went right?

read a fucking book instead of asking pol

Muslims

High taxes, corruption, decadence, endless civil war, the eternal mede, the Franks forging a new western rival... and of course the arabs followed by the turks

Who really started the greek/byzantine fire, Sup Forums?

The eternal merchant.

The Eternal Gondola.

it lasted 14 centuries what do you want more?

...

4th crusade

this. ever since they let us in, we've been trying to fuck it up from the inside.

venetians/crusaders did nothing wrong
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins
byzantines dug their own grave

Very few real allies

Shitty position

They survived a long time. Much longer than most regimes

Two main issues
1) plague
2) t*rks

The plague fucking ravaged the byzantine empire. It was like ground zero for it. By the time the turks came knocking on constantinople's doorstep, they were already in a very weakened state.

Byzantium was re-established after the Latin Empire folded (conquest of the Byzantine Empire via the fourth crusade, mainly a result of the Great Schism/Orthodoxy) and had a lot of problems after the reconquest of Constantinople occurred:

"From the start, the regime faced numerous problems. The Turks of Asia Minor had since 1263 been raiding and expanding into Byzantine territory in Asia Minor. Anatolia, which had formed the very heart of the shrinking empire, was systematically lost to numerous Turkic ghazis, whose raids evolved into conquering expeditions inspired by Islamic zeal. With a decreasing source of food and manpower, the Palaiologoi were forced to fight on several fronts, most of them being Christian states: the Second Bulgarian Empire, the Serbian Empire, the remnants of the Latin Empire and even the Knights Hospitaller.

The loss of land in the east to the Turks and in the west to the Bulgarians was complemented by two disastrous civil wars, the Black Death and the 1354 earthquake at Gallipoli, whose destruction and evacuation allowed the Turks to occupy it. By 1380, the Byzantine Empire consisted of the capital Constantinople and a few other isolated exclaves, which only nominally recognized the Emperor as their lord. Nonetheless, Byzantine diplomacy coupled with the adroit exploitation of internal divisions and external threats among their enemies, and above all the invasion of Anatolia by Timur, allowed Byzantium to survive until 1453. The last remnants of the Byzantine Empire, the Despotate of the Morea and the Empire of Trebizond, fell shortly afterwards."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Palaiologos_dynasty

forgetting about the massacre of the latins I see

>not turning it into the Roman Empire and reclaiming lost land
Why

>Shitty position
You mean geographically? That couldn't be further from the truth. Constantinople is one of the most geographically advantageous areas in the world. With the dardanelles and bosphorus straights, you simultaneously hold control over all movement from between europe and asia, as well as all movement between the mediterranean and the black sea.

The reason the Byzantines were able to hold on for so long was precisely BECAUSE of the location of constantinople. And once constantinople fell, it didn't take much longer for the entire balkans to get conquered by the t*rks.

Need the france region first

1204 mainly, nothing was right after that. Plus of course the successor states such as Epirus trying to fight Bulgarians rather than uniting with them or something to fight the Latins. Then in the 14th century as the Turks were coming, the Serbs rose, the Bulgarians had a brief renaissance too. Pre-1204 Byzantium might have been able to stave off the Turks, post-1261 couldn't. Plus, usual Balkan shit: no real co-operation. The Serbs were gallavanting around after their brief stint as top dog; the Bulgarians were dumb and split their diminishing kingdom into 3 smaller ones (plus local feudal lords), so like...who was there even left to unite? A strong Serbia, a united Bulgaria and a willing Byzantium, untied, would have ended the Turks quite easily. But nah, it's the Balkans.

Roaches

cool borders bro, your map turned out cuhrazy
because he needs the roman cores

Considering you're doing this without cheats, good luck.

>23 august 1948
>still hasn't conquered Rome's borders
wew

The Byzantine Empire was fucked way before that. Rightfully it should've been ended when the crusaders fucked them up. Catholics made way for the ottomans and indirectly caused the islamisation of the whole region.

I thought It was ck 2 for a moment and replied anyway cause I'm retarded. If it was ck 2. He would've been able to create the Empire by now. Never tried it in Europa 4.

Basically based crusaders raping the entire city in 1204.

Byzantines caused that by splitting off from the church in the first place.

this desu

But a summary would be that Byzantium was way too pacifist for its own good.

the only reason we had a short-lived empire was because those cucks teamed up with the bulgarians and wanted to invade us. we attacked the bulgarians and defeated them before they managed to meet up with the byzanthines, after the byzantines saw what happened they noped the fuck out. byzanthines and bulgarians wanted to attack us because they were threatened with a major regional power that was on the rise. after that we turned bulgarians into vassals, took macedonia, albania, parts of bosnia and half of greece etc. the only reason we now worship the byzanthine empire was because it was a major christian empire that went to shit., but it's a purely idealized version that doesn't take history into account. no one thought back then "oh, your're christian i don't wanna attack you", no one thought that the byzanthine empire is gonna perish, and it was just standard fighting that goes between countries/kingoms/empires.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velbazhd

What's up with your map bro.

>letmetellyouaboutvenice.jpg

Let's not forget 1204 is as much about money and payment for the Crusaders as religion, in fact - more. I know on Sup Forums we like to reduce things to big categories, such as religion, but historically, economics was more important. Orthodoxy just made it easier to contemplate the sacking of an imperial capital.

Venetians and Turks.

4th Crusade, so Venice in particular
Seriously, can any Catholic tell me anything went really right with that one?

Mikhail Shishman brings shame to Bulgaria. Especially after the Terters and Teodor Svetoslav before him, those were the guys who were on the way to restoring what Ivan Assen II could have done.

>year of lord 2017
>not knowing what mods are

Big Meme Mehmed besieged and took the city in 1493


I urge you to read 1453: The Holy War for Constantinople and the Clash of Islam and the West by Roger Crowley.

I mostly play CK 2, so I don't have much mods for EU4

Still wasn't worth breaking the entire bulk work of Christaindom in the east, leading to Turks raping their way into central Germany like Orcs from war hammer 40k

Everybody involved got excommunicated?
It really was a massive clusterfuck.

Merchants.

you know what's funny, battle of velbazhd is the most important moment in serbian history (it pawed the way for us into becoming an empire) but no one in serbia knows about it.

>1948
>Doesn't control the entire Mediterranean
>Hasn't even formed Rome
What the fuck are you doing?

>The religious differences between the two sides, who viewed each other as schismatics, further exacerbated the problem. The Italians proved uncontrollable by imperial authority: in 1162, for instance, the Pisans together with a few Venetians raided the Genoese quarter in Constantinople, causing much damage.[1] Emperor Manuel subsequently expelled most of the Genoese and Pisans from the city, thus giving the Venetians a free hand for several years.[7]

>In early 1171, however, when the Venetians attacked and largely destroyed the Genoese quarter in Constantinople, the Emperor retaliated by ordering the mass arrest of all Venetians throughout the Empire and the confiscation of their property.[1] A subsequent Venetian expedition in the Aegean failed: a direct assault was impossible due to the strength of the imperial forces, and the Venetians agreed to negotiations, which the Emperor stalled intentionally. As talks dragged on through the winter, the Venetian fleet waited at Chios, until an outbreak of the plague forced them to withdraw.[8]

>The Venetians and the Empire remained at war, with the Venetians prudently avoiding direct confrontation but sponsoring Serb uprisings, besieging Ancona, Byzantium's last stronghold in Italy, and signing a treaty with the Norman Kingdom of Sicily.[9] Relations were only gradually normalized: there is evidence of a treaty in 1179,[10] although a full restoration of relations would only be reached in the mid-1180s.[11] Meanwhile, the Genoese and Pisans profited from the dispute with Venice, and by 1180, it is estimated that up to 60,000 Latins lived in Constantinople.[1]
LATINS DIDNU NUFFIN THEY WEERE GOOD BOYS! THEY NEED MO MONEY FOR DEM PAPAL STATES

we happened :))))

While I'm sure you have truly virtuous godly reasons for defending robed liars operating a Cash4Heaven scheme and making up unbibilical nonsense that conveniently supports their institutions, the Orthodox were right in stepping away from the depravity of the Mother Whore.

Yeah, it is the moment when Serbia takes the mantle from Bulgaria as the other big power. We know of it here, as well as the puppet king after Shishman, strange that you guys don't study it more.

Shattered Europa 2 is really slow but fun in the beginning

Yarmouk and manzikert.

Kek,nice edited article shill.

In reality it was all the ebil Serbs.They wanted to conquer and genocide everybody and attacked the innocent sweet Bulgars,Greeks and Albanians who have lived in peace for billions of years.

And when the Heavenly Bulgar attacked the evil cunning Serb fought unfairly and has unfairly took an victory for the benevolent Bulgar and the generous freedom loving Greek.

And then the evil Serb gifted it all to the Turks because they wuz backstabbers.


Everything fucking wrong on he Balkans is because of Serbs,Bulgarians and Greeks are super human until dem Turks took away their special powers.

How are you liking your new dictatorship?

Byzantines were literally selling catholics as slaves to turks
They deserved what was coming to them for their eternal scheming

gorgeous map skin m8

>be turk
>realize your culture is so shit you wish you were roman
>beg the pope for rome status
>get told no
>chimp out and try to destroy europe
>fail
>breed your people out of existence with the greeks
>still not rome
>empire crumbles
>realize constantinople stopped being the city of the worlds desire when you moved in
>its a 3rd world shithole now
>brag about it anyway

>after that we turned bulgarians into vassals

Thing that never happened for 400.

We have defeated you in every war we have ever had, cuck.

Serbian backstabber shit

>no one thought back then "oh, your're christian i don't wanna attack you"

Pope Innocent III, to his credit, excommunicated most of the people involved in the 4th Crusade for that very reason. Furthmore, the Crusaders themselves suffered significant attrition specifically because they were attacking Christians and a lot of them went "this is evil, fuck this" and went away even though there was significant loot to be had.

Yes obviously a lot of the time it was purely secular shit that people were motivated by but do not discount religion being important, and often a significant driver.

>chimp out like niggers
>wonder why the natives dislike you
yeah ok you papal cocksucker, you don't bite the hand that feeds you

Also let's not forget the Venetian crusade where Venetians raided the Aegean and massacred its inhabitants

Das rite!!!!

Come on, we all know it is not quite like that. Just because the 1990s wars changed some Western perceptions of the past, doesn't erase previous Western views of the region and the "baddies" - for example, for George Bernard Shaw, it was the Bulgarians who were ebil in 1885. History and historical perceptions do not stay in one place.

/thread

The fourth crusade.

Your right that is the one good thing that came of it

Mate, Bulgaria has plenty of glorious medieval history, let's not twist things. Velbudzh was a big defeat, and the next tzar of Bulgaria, even if short-lived, was Ivan Stefan, who was a Serb puppet.

>he literally defend selling fellow christians as slaves to turks
greeks are just as bad as jews
dont be mad that you became turkish cum dupster ground for next 300 years

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire

>Bulgaria had never recovered since its defeat by the Serbs at the Battle of Velbazhd,[2] and the Bulgarian czar, whose sister Dušan later married, became his vassal,[3] the Second Bulgarian Empire being a Serbian vassal state between 1331 and 1365.[4] Dušan thus ruled over the almost the entire Balkan peninsula, with only southern Greece, Salonica, and Thrace escaping his authority.

Nah, even if they were doing it, still wasn't worth destroying the entire east

>one side causes shit to the other side
>other side causes shit in retaliation
>OY VEY REMEMBER THE GORRILION GOYIM
literally out of an alinsky book

>>realize constantinople stopped being the city of the worlds desire when you moved in
>>its a 3rd world shithole now
>>brag about it anyway

This.

I remember when studying about Constantinople, it seemed such a glorious city, an epitome of mankind.

Nowadays it's just a shitskin gloryhole, in the same category of places like bangladesh

No you guys were basically vassals for a time. Not like you didn't have times of glory in the Middle Ages though

>>beg the pope for rome status
never happened. mehmet the conqueror got an anti-latin orthodox leader as the head of the patriarchy of constantinople, who then gave him the title "caesar of rome" in exchange for more rights
he would have taken italy as well but got poisoned alongside with his good son
>>chimp out and try to destroy europe
>>realize constantinople stopped being the city of the worlds desire when you moved in
someone is butthurt :D

breddy good, erdoğan will not be president though
favorite and wait for 2019

>Byzantium
It survived in the form of Serbia. By mercy of God, Serbs are only legal descendants and representatives of Byzantium and whole Roman empire. Pic very related.

This post sounds more like a Jew than a Catholic, every Catholic I have met in real life has expressed regret with how the 4th crusade turned out

That poster is starting to sound like a Hebrew the more he speaks

Not quite accurate either. Serbia became the dominant power, but the vassaldom was short-lived, and Ivan Alexander - the tzar from 1331, had pretty big succeses in the 1330s and early 1340s in recovering lands, especially in Thrace. Bulgaria was not really a vassal later on, but an ally (sealed through marriage).

Everyone in the Balkans likes to pretend they were top dog all the time, but as usual, things are complicated. From the 1330s onwards Serbia was the bigger power in the Balkans than Bulgaria, but by no means were Bulgars the vassals after Ivan Stefan was sent packing to Naples.

Why didn't Yugoslavia invade turkey then?

Yeah, there it is. Not like Bulgarians didn't make that claim either as far back as 1205 and Kaloyan, or the Russians famously. Stop being a Balkan cuck, do you know how stupid all our countries sound when we make that kind of claim?

as if a fucking religious figure like a patriarch has any say to if someone is the successor of Rome

Lies.

Remember 800's when the HUGE Serbian state attacked the poor Bulgarians and tried to enslave them?Every fucking war was lead by the evil warmongering Serbs expect for for 1291 when the Bulgarians tried to take revenge.

And remember that the entire time the evil Serbs never had to fight poor Bulgarians.They could solely focus on Byzantine.

I mean just look at how the Serbs treat their prisioners.

Remember when that evil Serb dude made a fucking skull cup of the fallen Greeks corpse and drank from it?

Remember when the evil Serb blinded 15k Greek men and sent them back to the Greek emperor so he had an heart attack?

Meanwhile,look at this valiant Bulgarian,who praised God before the battle and after a glorious victory buried the Serbs body in a shrine,despite the evil he has done.

Truly everything wrong with the Balkans are Serbs.They should go back to Karphats.

>Thread about the Byzantine Empire
>degenerates into balkan banter

Speaking seriously:

-Rising Islamic powers in the East - both the Arabs and the various Turkic peoples whose existential threat was vastly underestimated

-Constant fucking infighting and backstabbing, if they fought invaders as hard as they fought each other theyd be unstoppable. Instead their empire slowly decayed and got picked apart

-The Rise of the Western Europeans

>
>no one thought back then "oh, your're christian i don't wanna attack you", no one thought that the byzanthine empire is gonna perish

This x100 religious unity was a joke for the most part even during the crusades. Same story with Islam even the Caliph couldnt keep shit together

I always find it hilarious when you guys make that claim

I mean Greeks at the very least participated in Roman society, but these barbarians are just Larpers

Twenty years before the crusade the Greeks massacred literally tens of thousands of Catholics in Constantinople.

Well Balkan banter is a major reason the Greeks never recovered, so it isn't that much of surprised

Any Serb or Bulgarian saying that they're the successors of the Byzantine Empire is a literal wewuzer.

Oy never forget the 6 million

Haha, man, you are typical Balkan кoмплeкcap, as we would say. You take the prism of what Western politics say about Serbs NOW and project it back as if this is how it was always seen in the world. Remember, there is history before 1990s, and the Serbs were NOT seen as the bad guys back then all the time. Read a little bit about perceptions around 1913 and the Second Balkan War, or the First World War. For god's sake, the Shaw example I gave you is about the 1885 war, when Serbia was the actual aggressor - and still he saw the Bulgarians as the bad guys.

Just accept it, Western perceptions of the Balkans don't matter that much as historical accuracy, as they serve a very particular geopolitical and cultural need for the West. Read Todorova's Imagining the Balkans, not just Wiki, news sites, and Serbian textbooks (or Bulgarian textbooks, or school textbooks of any country for that matter).

Catholics, basically. If the Crusaders had formed an alliance with the Byzantines (which was the original plan actually) they would have been unstoppable, Islam would have been eradicated and the Middle East would be under Christian control until the present day, and such a close geopolitical tie would have inevitably resulted in a resumption of communion between the two Churches. But the Catholics just couldn't get over their fucking God complex and decide to destroy the Byzantine Empire instead, and even though they eventually came back the hole was already dug too deep to climb out of.

Really the poison started with the split of the Roman Empire into East and West, but that was before the Byzantines were even a thing.

>be a culture made up by the arabized remainers of antiquity
>still not muslim
>has a very vague myth which is too far back so to create a new culture
It's time was just over.
Still definitely a great example how to keep a civlisation alive.

we should return to mars though
our home

see
and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Crusade

stop with the Jew tricks

Oh yeah, and the survivors were sold to Turks as slaves.

>National unrest + 100

what the actual fuck?

>erdoğan will not be president though
You still keep believing Perinçek I see