Ok Sup Forums, discussion time!

Ok Sup Forums, discussion time!

Does Atheism cause one to have an unfulfilled life?

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no, why would you think that
Since the Christian God and the afterlife are no longer quite believable, immortality is attained via the preservation of one's culture, language, and genes.

>Worshipping the King of the Jews

Reminder sweden was 95% atheist a few years ago

No, but liberalism does.

Yeah, basically
>fall for atheism
>all objectivity drops out
>live as a degenerate since there's no moral grounding to keep you away from drugs, out-of-wedlock sex, porn, whathave you
>die when you could've just visited /x/ and gotten proof of god from beyond the veil yourself in like 20 minutes tops

WEW

Sauce on proof of God from beyond the veil?

> in4 killing myself to meet god

>never raised christian
>detest the way atheist evangelists act
>don't really care about religion one way or another
>no reason to believe or disbelieve
And that's how user because agnostic

Lacking any reasonably attainable truth will cause anyone to have an unfulfilled life.

If God does exist and you don't believe in Him, then you live an unfulfilled life because you deny the truth of His existence.

If God does not exist and you believe in Him, then you live an unfulfilled life because you deny the truth of His non-existence.

>Implying that living the neckbeard life in your mom's basement is even comparable to living life happily
kek

Mostly atheism tends to lead to nihilism then eventual misery.

No one in my family is religious, I've never believed in God or been to church, and I'd have to say yes

There's no way I can force myself to believe in anything supernatural at this point so it doesn't matter anyway, but I wish I did sometimes, the world would not be so bleak

What a pretentious way to say absolutely nothing at all

Don't look down now. Follow the path of stoicism and pantheism. Man is too sentient that we basically need purpose and a sense of duty. Things doesn't need to be supernatural, just don't be so dismissive around such topics for the sake of entertainment and info.

Anyone smart enough to be an atheist will always feel that this universe is a cold, indifferent place. Even after converting to religion, you would understand that your devotion to it is to cover for your uncertainty.

boring..

But what if I know that I have this sense of duty because it has conferred a survival advantage to my species, and is an illusion?

definately, just compare lives of atheists you know with lives of religious people you know

>smart enough to be an atheist

Bait this obvious is certainly not indicative of intelligence, user.

We'll pretend you're serious though. Can you follow the questions "why" and "how" to their conclusions?

No but it causes dangerously high levels of smug

>definately
That is a common misspelling. It should be definitely. The root in there is "finite", that's an easy way to remember it. Do not rely on Americans to spell things right.

Once I accepted and believed the lord Jesus was my god and savior. For my own reasons and purposes, I couldn't maintain my belief in such a specific higher power. I was irritated with my new seemingly directionless life, but after a while, i figured I am proud of what I am, and on the day of my death, I will test the strength of my own mortal resolve against that of whatever reward Im worthy of, or whatever punishment I must bear lies beyond. Until then, I will continue to strengthen that resolve and constitution.

it's the other way around. you are a miserable bastard and then you become atheist.

People in miserable conditions are more likely to be religious, are they not? Poor people are more religious than the upper class.

boring...and stupid

...

boring, stupid and self-flagellating.

What value does culture have in the vast expanse of the universe if there is no God? Is it worthwhile simply by existing? Or does the culture achieve value by being good in some greater sense? How would you judge a culture to be better than any other if there is no objective morality or standard by which to judge them?

yeah, OK

i think poor religious people become even more religious after tragedies, but they were already religious. i'm not saying atheist can't be happy but i found myself and other atheists bitter and being atheist didn't improve anything

Nothing awaits you in death.

It has value to humans.
It doesn't matter how big the universe is, for all we know it might me barren and without life, or even weirder.

People get this feeling of a greater purpose from religion and it makes them feel good.

Little do they know that what they actually crave is a strong "tribe chieftain". A good boss. Somebody to tell them what to do when they feel lost.
Feeling lost and without purpose is terrible for people. We can't stand not knowing what to do or how to react.

religion gives you a pretty decent mold with which you can shape your life an your decisions. It teaches you how to react to things in certain ways. That's why it's so popular with the less educated.

From a psychological perspective, religion, and especially christianity is a work of genius.

If there was no religion, they'd find something else bend the knee to.

As a side effect, it should be noted that it also gives you a little hope when you get the feelies.

So yeah, religious people are a bit less prone to misery and suffering because they just pray that God will fix it and then they'll be able to sleep soundly, putting their faith in a God and thanking them when everything sorts itself out(sooner or later, since most problems usually resolve themselves no matter what you fucking believe).

just try to enjoy the ride and try not to ruin it for others. don't waste time judging others.

I love atheist now.

If we assume that the universe is barren of meaning and life, and it's just us on a rock in the middle of a near infinite void, is the culture and authority, the "Chieftain", not just a distraction or pointless obsession that serves as a psychological crutch for a weak-willed species? What objective value does it have? Just that it makes you feel good?

Not only does an atheist presume to know how reality works, but to avoid falling into the pit of their own cognitive dissonance, they're required to grab anything not strictly within the realm of "religion" and fashion it into yet another addition to their collection of crutches to swing wildly at whatever difficult question or position makes itself present.

What is objective value?

atheists are red pilled

Objective value, morals, or purpose requires a standard to be held up against. If there is no God, nothing has objective value. If there is a God, objective value, morality, and purpose can be determined by His word.

but..but that's all so cringy. Can't they see that?

why can't you just pick your own purpose?
also, if there isn't another god that created god, god's values aren't objetive either.

Can it really? You are bound to your tools of perception. Can you trust that your imperfection is capable of understanding a divine word?

Let's not even go that path. If you think there is no objective value if there is no God, then who is God's God to give Him objective value? Does He just have it because you capitalize His name? This is circular logic, and it very accurately represents my first point -- if human logic is inadequate for understanding even this, then how can anything human be enough to understand something more?

Value can only be subjective.
A thing of value has value to SOMEONE.
A person can value a thing, but it may be of no value to another person.
Value requires a WHOM to be valuable to.
Therefore, value is always subjective.

No, it causes an unfulfilling afterlife.

True atheism is as irrational as religion. It's just having faith in nothing rather than something.

"Look how edgy I am for being an atheist!"

Neither side can prove shit.

I'm not the one who introduced "objective value" into the conversation. True objectivity is not possible with words to begin with. Language is too obtuse and inaccurate.

Apatheism is the way to go

Then he uses part of the wood to make a fire. With it he warms himself and bakes his bread. Then--yes, it's true--he takes the rest of it and makes himself a god to worship! He makes an idol and bows down in front of it!
t. atheist

my man

who the fuck argues about religion

No, but it causes them to replace the religion of christianity/islam/judaism etc. with the religion of statism.

It can sometimes lead to nihilism. When you believe everything you're doing in your life is completely meaningless in the end. Then you realize everything you do is just for your own enjoyment. After that you conclude that your own enjoyment is just a release of chemicals in your brain. You start to realize you don't actually care about anyone, and that you only care about others opinion of you. Even if you did ACTUALLY care about anyone or anything it would just be some instinctual pull that you cannot control. You are nothing but a myriad of complex algorithms happening quickly inside your brain. Every feeling you've ever had, anger, happiness, sadness, and etc are just a system that controls you. They make your decisions, every single one of them. Even if you were to completely abandon all of your emotions and turn completely to reason. It wouldn't matter, because it would just be another system that controls you, that still is completely instinctual.

Would you even want that? To be completely inhuman. Yes. you would make pragmatic decisions with no bias, but what would be the point? You can no longer envision a better world, because you have no idea what a better world would look like. All you see is a system that needs to work efficiently and effectively, but to what end? What would be the goal of this system, and would the others around you that you can no longer understand agree with what the goal should be.

So, on the subject of God. Some atheist believe the absence of God makes them free, but in reality it just makes you lost. The basis of religion tells you what to think, what to feel, what is immoral, and what is moral. It gives you a path to go down, and a goal to achieve. Following this path and seeking to achieve these goals will make you happy. Your entire life is built around this and you wont get lost or confused.

Nihilism is a pit you constantly have to crawl out of, only to be pushed back into it again.

unless of course that thing which gives things their value is the Omnipotent and Immutable God. Even if you could call Omniscience "subjective," to us mere mortals, It's subjectivity would be the objective, concrete, and immutable basis for all our subjectivity. Therefore, if it is valuable to God, regardless of how you want to classify it (objective/subjective) as far as we are concerned, it would be to us the Objective Truth from which we derive our subjectivity. Without this Immutable Being, the Foundational Fact if you will, there can be no value.

Don't pretend you think every action is subjective, even you believe in a Concrete Morality, a Concrete set of Principles from which you derive your philosophies. To do so is unreasonable.

Would [b]agnostic atheism[/b] make sense to you?

→ Agnostic answers the ontological question of whether we can know for certain that God exists.

→ Atheist: there is no reason to believe in God, as evidenced by, ya know, everything.

A purpose is why you exist. The existee doesn't get to choose why they exist, as they did not create themselves. Trying to be something you aren't is just deluding yourself.

God doesn't have to be created, that is the whole idea behind God. For the natural world to exist, there needs to be a beginning to cause and effect that was not itself caused. There needs to be something utterly transcendent, that does not exist within the confines of reality as we perceive it. God simply IS.
Value does not exist at all if we have nothing to judge it by. It is simply a temporary, fleeting illusion, as all life would thus be.

what if instead of nihilism we aim for absurdism? no need to be a pragmatic robot but no need to be a submissive believer. just try to embrace the absurd condition of human existence while also defiantly continuing to explore and search for meaning.

Atheism is not nihilism. Atheists want the smug satisfaction of being better than the fundies who don't think too hard about things they don't need to but still need to be included in "the group" to find satisfaction in their lives.

Atheism is what the coward and the fool turn to when faced with questions we don't like the answers to.

That depends on how you frame the experience. You could say that your value systems are rooted in biological entities that were established long, long before your existence became a possibility, but then you could also flip the camera around and say that this belief in "sense" is the morality itself. As I explained in reply to another user, this failure of circular logic only proves objectivity is a plane beyond human criteria. We only have things that are, in reference to other things, more objective.

got boring again

by that logic if no one created god then god has no purpose either

If you still use the word God at this juncture, it's either misleading or direct indication of some serious mental gymnastics. Some sort of transcendental existence makes sense from within the confines of our limited perceptions, but even this is not an absolute. Hence the limited part.

> able to make my own decisions
> can think independently on moral subjects
> mortality is real to me

vs

> your decisions have to take your religion's stupid book into account
> you must obey the holy stupid book to dictate your morality
> mortality is just a fun ride up to Heaven, then splat into Jesus' everlasting orgy

I'd prefer the former.

Atheism is worse than Christianity or Islam. Islam and Christianity make you slaves but athiesm makes you a slave to your own hubris

So your reasoning comes from chemical responses in your brain? That's pretty unreasonable. How could you possibly know that statement is true, how could you possibly know that your chemical reactions are any better than other's chemical reactions?

YOU only have subjectivity. We who understand our rationality is derived from Rationality itself have the awarness of Objectivity. It's why we can say "You are just simply wrong" (which you are) and you can only say "the chemical reactions in my brain give me the fealing that I am the right one, but of course if your's do as well, than you are the right one.

How can your chemical reactions give you faith in your senses, when we know the brain's chemical receptors can be damaged and yield unsound and untrue principles?

then you shall have it. Unfortunately for you, you too will be immortal.

chill, there are not many atheist crushing people with trucks these days

no

If you question everything you'll eventually start to question morality.

It just leads to that for some people unfortunately. I'm an agnostic and I struggle with nihilism frequently. I get out of it and just fall back into it.

That would be the best surprise of my life. Eons into eternity I think that will probably have been the biggest shock of my life.

why is it wrong to crush people with trucks? isn't your only possible response: "the chemical reactions that have been built up through the millennia cause a feeling in me that it's wrong."? That is NOT rational, that is emotional.

Evidence of the existence of God - Bogdanoff Brothers (subtitles)

youtube.com/watch?v=9xpqDdJ9k8Y

It's like you didn't read anything I said. Moreover, how can you think rationality can derive itself into something not limited by its own limitations and still make an argument about reasonableness?

>we who understand

You would have to be a monotheist to believe that having faith leads to a more fulfilled life.

I'm a monotheist, but my belief is structurally more like ancient polytheistic religions, in that I couldn't give a fuck what God is doing or what his plan (if there is one) is for me. His goal isn't to bring peace or justice; he's a god; he does his own things, whatever gods do, and I'll do whatever humans do.

If you rely on your belief in a god(s) to give you happiness, then you're controlled.

Modern atheists live structurally the same as Christians, because they're taught that way. They want to either live in a perfect society with a perfect god who only does good, or they don't want a god if they can't have that perfect life.

Modern worldwide religions started because empires needed their citizens' undying faith, which made it easy for Greeks and Romans to abandon their deities for the Christian god, because the Christian god existed much like their own law, in that the Christian god was omnipresent, just, and good. The fear of the sword was not enough; they latched onto fear of hell-fire.

No capitalist/atheist/monotheist/leftist/minority can tolerate aggression. We aggress to serve what we consider "justice", and this form of justice is based on the local collective. Modern times is the most aggressive times, lacking leisure, lacking humanity, because we've outlawed aggression. If a parent doesn't let their child walk into the street, they will never be afraid of traffic; they will never know what it means to be afraid of being hit by a car. Likewise, if you don't let a man serve his own justice, his unrequited aggression becomes a problem. Atheists (who tend to be loud-mouthed idiots) are like the child when he realizes that his parents are fallible; he never had fear of the road to begin with, because the law of his parents had replaced that, and now there's nothing stopping him from running into the road.

Oh, it will be shocking. And the odds are in that moment, you will cry out "Lord, How could I have known? Spare me!" and He will say "I do not know you, into the eternal fires that I have set aside your you and the devil."

Of course, you can turn to Christ now, and give up these silly, unreasonably, irrational faiths of this world. It's easy. Say this: "Lord, forgive me for my iniquities, grant me your mercy, and give me the strength to sin no more and avoid the near occasions of sin." Then live it. Then you wont be surprised when you die, you will be fulfilled.

This was me my whole life until I begged the lord for forgiveness over a year ago
I've stopped drinking, put myself together. Life is beautiful and meaningful now.

This is now an traditional art and beauty appreciation thread

Morality does not require any spirituality or other supernatural explanations. We can easily work out a moral code relevant to us, rather than as commanded by God.

Humanism

ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnizəm

noun

• an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

• a Renaissance cultural movement that turned away from medieval scholasticism and revived interest in ancient Greek and Roman thought.

>>all objectivity drops out

“Objective”, my ass. Stop pretending to be “objective”. You aren’t. No one is more subjective than you theists.

Typical christian hypocrite: The Bible is the inviolate word of god when I agree with it. The Bible is just a jewish allegory when I don't agree with it.

good
4 u

Ok, so when you mention biological entities that were established long, long ago, you are not referring to your brain function? So what, outside of your brain function, gives you you're rationality? It's like YOU didn't read what I was saying. If your belief in "sense" tells you right from wrong, than your right and wrong and determined by something that is changeable, damageable, and tiny in comparison to the questions of Morality, those which have boggled the minds of the great down through the ages, but are simply answered by a Christian child.

...

>you will cry out "Lord, How could I have known?
That hell is one hell of a place.
>Spare me!
I don't to be spanked Jesus don't put me over your lap.
>I do not know you,
Do you think i know you either.
> into the eternal fires that I have set aside your you and the devil."
Fuck yeah i am finally gonna meet my heros who all died and went to hell thanks Jesus.
>Of course, you can turn to Christ now
Why should i when all i have been presented is the carrot and the stick?
> give up these silly, unreasonably, irrational faiths of this world
I still don't have a reason too.
>and give me the strength to sin no more and avoid the near occasions of sin
Why should i still?

Give me evidence your bullshit is true.

why do those afairs have prime importance? What makes them important? Your feelings? that is not rational, that is emotional. And it's funny how that ends up, the great rationalists finally, in our lifetimes, admit their emotionalism. But of course they did back then as well, but they were much higher educated than we are today, and could better hide their ineptitude.

What makes you people think the Bible is true, but that the countless other religions are false?

>Atheism is worse than
>Islam

You would rather be beheaded by muslims than lose a peaceful internet debate to atheists. Pathetic.

>Christianity make you slaves

At least you admit it.

Cont'd

The atheist realized his old god is fallible, and so values perpetuated by the old god are seen as fallible as well. The problem isn't that the atheist loses traditional values because he's no longer religious. The problem is that we conflate traditional values with our religion.

This is why I like to live my life away from God, not out of hatred, but out of respect. If I grow values, it's not because of God. My meaning in life, I get from my own nature, from my loved ones; I don't get it from god.

Many atheists are unlike me, because they still need to derive meaning from their distractions (which replace religion), distractions like the atheist movement, video games, internet arguments, etc. And a lot of atheists have turned to social justice to derive meaning in life, by being "Just", replacing their fallible religion with fallible politics. I'm not saying leftist politics are fallible and that rightwing politics are not; all politics is fallible; the atheist derives meaning from it, regardless.

They replace deep love for their god with deep love for the polity, deep love for waifus and video game characters, and deep love for celebrities, idol worship.
They are no different than Christians.

The blind will not see the evidence, it is plainly there to see. The truth that you all are emotional, and deny rationality to the point of saying all thought is simply the feelings caused by a chemical reaction in your brain. Never wondering what it is precisely that "feels." Your body? That puts your rationality to an even lower level than emotion, it puts it to the level of taking a shit.

You don't have to user, but remember that the damned will not have the privilege of being haughty. You will be brought low, unless you let Him raise you up.

...

Sweet lord of your choosing....

I literally brought biology into this because of >a Concrete set of Principles from which you derive your philosophies

I was illustrating that there is not a perspective that is not tainted by the basic limitations of perspective itself. The reality we experience is a spectrum, with subjective and objective at either end, and no instance of perception exists wholly on one side.

Actually, the definition on Wikipedia is better.

> Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and affirms their ability to improve their lives through the use of reason and ingenuity as opposed to submitting blindly to tradition and authority or sinking into cruelty and brutality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Why wouldn't the prosperity of your own species be a worthy cause?
I see how this can get bad: it opens a door for collectivists.

that the Bible contains within it all the truths that can be known, that can be important. Islam allows you to lie about your faith to avoid pain. Buddhism preaches the lie that peace can be found through earthly acts and by ignoring the fact of your impending doom. Hindus don't really believe in Krishna, and will tell you this. Taoists accept that their faith is simply a way to live your life. Dualists think Evil as on the same level as Good, yet they fear evil and desire good just as the rest of us do. Diests believe that the thing which caused our existence, cuased all the good and all the bad, is something to be respected, even though it has caused all this suffering.

The Christian understands that all of these are false.

>The blind will not see the evidence, it is plainly there to see
There is no evidence just the carrot and the stick and faith is what you go by. You pretend to have evidence just because i went and mocked you when in fact you still have no evidence and no good reason why to believe what you do.
> all thought is simply the feelings caused by a chemical reaction in your brain. Never wondering what it is precisely that "feels." Your body?
I never implied that in the slightest Mr strawman for all you know i could believe in a totally different deity or some form of Deist God without accepting your God.
>you will be brought low, unless you let Him raise you up.
Prove him exists then i will accept his existence.

>spends his life believing in a non-existing magical jew.
Yeah, talk about unfulfilled.

I didn't fault you for bringing up biology, i faulted you for being incapable of defending yourself when I bring up biology.

If that perspective comes from the Omnipotent and Immutable God, (and this is the only way Rationality can be said to be Rational) than it is NOT subjective. Even if you called it subjective...(re-read that post, user, i already said this)

how can there be an emphasis on the value of a thing, if the question "does this thing have value" is not answered?

Why WOULD it be a worthy cause? Why is collectivism bad? you and I can agree that it is destructive to humanity, but why is humanity's destruction bad? because it FEELS bad? That is not rationalism, that is emotionalism.

Yes, you can create a moral code and follow it, but if you begin to question that moral code it sometimes leads to nihilism. You don't need religion to create a moral code, but religion sometimes can keep you from questioning it.

I'm in no way advocating for religion though, but it did keep us from coming across some shitty red pills that some people can't swallow..

God's existence can only be proved after you've accepted God's existence. If you assume form the start he does not exist, it is clear that even a great miracle from God would not convince you, you are already convinced that a great miracle would just be your flawed brain-function.


Ah, so I was mistaken. you didn't say that. ok, so what does your religion tell you that thought is? What does your religion preach about rationality?

He has blinded the nonbeliever. No one can prove it to you. There is only proof for the believer.

Nah. I can't be a Christian. Even take a Kierkegaardian leap of faith. There's no helping it, but I can still enjoy accomplishment and sunshine. Thanksgiving dinner and Lions football. Being contrary on the internet.

user.... why would you risk that feeling the pain of that stick, and risk loosing out on that carrot? If you would just OPEN YOUR EYES, and actually READ THE BIBLE and stop pretending that you, in your tiny short lifespan, can possibly realize Truth without the aid of those who came before you. TURN TO CHRIST. Or die the final death.

Oh I see. I think I've wasted my time with this discussion. The pursuit of self is not some mythical article only a few chosen minds are capable of. Your notions have bound you to their limitations.

Stop typing, you're making yourself look stupid.

You are using an inarguable point, an axiom from your own perspective, as backbone for something that cannot stand up to obvious scrutiny. You do this because you have to. Your mind's capable of seeing the void where truth would be if you had the tools, but you've decided to substitute it with something else more comforting and reliable.

A direct connection does not exist between two articles in the same system simply because they are in the same system. What we call reality had to generate somehow, and you can call that nebulous state of extra-existence God if you want, but forcing that to translate down into what we call rationality and form a neat little ring of logic is just a sweet nothing you've whispered to yourself.

I meant it in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way. It's self-deprecating humor, almost.

Many polls have found a mild difference in the IQs of the faithful and the atheists. But of course there are a lot of conservative geniuses, especially among the outliers.

As for the questions "why" and "how"…

WHY
if a being made the universe, it has the purpose given to it by the creator.
if the universe came from nothing, and to nothing it will return, then you have to find your own ways to fulfill your drive for purpose and meaning.

HOW
we have figured out the "how" from nanoseconds after the Big Bang up to now, in general, and thanks to science we can correct the answer if we find that the truth is otherwise.
genesis mythologies are just mythologies, you can appreciate them as literature but they're about as useful to you morally as a horoscope.