So let's talk about insurance. In America this is becoming a major issue. I personally believe insurance, like usury...

So let's talk about insurance. In America this is becoming a major issue. I personally believe insurance, like usury, is an inherent scam. It should be outlawed all together. This would bring prices back down to what the market would dictate an average person could afford. Also on the other hand, a welfare program for those who can't work to subsidize the costs should be instituted.
Insurance is gambling. Which is under prohibition. Perhaps maybe a loan program provided by the state without usury in order to cover said medical bills is the good option for the welfare I'm speaking of.

Theoretically I support universal healthcare. Take it out of taxes. It would cost a lot less than the insurance playing Middle man system we have in place. But...you just know the government would fuck it up and require mandatory 21 immunizations every year or some similar level of fuckery. When John Kerry was running for prez he floated an idea that any medical bill over 50k would be picked up by the government. I actually think this is a decent idea.

Insurance is not a scam, people are just to dumb to understand it.

1. Insurance is to recover financial losses that individuals/businesses cannot realitistically deal with.

2. People seem to think it's a savings account when it is actually a promise from an insurer to pay in the event of an anavoidable catastrophe

3. Health insurance has morphed into some kind of body maintaninence plan. If you used auto insurance every time you needed an oil change or home insurance every time your washing machine broke they would be outrageously expensive as well.

Insurance is not the solution to the healthcare problem, health care cost is the issue insurance does not lower cost

The problem with that is that it's going to still drive up the cost of Medical Care. Hospitals will charge what is willing to be paid. If the only option is to try to get money from an average person that cannot charge exorbitant fees. By outlawing insurance we bring it back to free market capitalism dictating the price. There are those who are unfortunate enough to not be able to work though. For those non-interest bearing loan from the government to pay the hospital in my opinion would be the best case scenario. The loan can be paid back with very low minimum payments. The money used for these loans would never really have to grow per se. Sans of course population expansion. But the worst case scenario is that these loans would go unpaid. In my opinion however this would not necessarily be a bad thing. The money text from the u.s. population would go directly back to it. we would basically be using the US government as a capacitor for monetary funds directed towards Healthcare. In fact the taxes paid by Health companies could go to fund this very thing.

>health care cost is the issue insurance does not lower cost
Some doctors will negotiate payments without insurance at more than 50% off. Insurance feeds into high healthcare prices. The doctors know the insurers will pay X, so they price at X. The cost of healthcare outside of drug prices, is pretty much dictated by the insurance companies.

Insurance is like betting the house. The House Always Wins. on one hand you're making a bet that you are going to be unhealthy and the insurance company is making a bed that you're going to be healthy. At the end of the day their risk-benefit analysis is significantly better than the average person . similar to loans and Usery this only adds a middle man that stands to profit and leech off of the very system it states that it benefits. Not only that but it drives the cost of healthcare up as it will be charged for what the market will bear. If insurance companies are willing to pay more because they're good at protecting themselves when they think they shouldn't have to pay to pad that loss then the cost of Health Care will reflect that by Rising dramatically. As it has done over the past years

This wouldmactually help in terms of a regulation, insurance companies shouldn't be charged less than individuals, why do I have to pay 4K for a cat scan out of pocket but an insurance company past 1300. That's nonsense

Insurance is a for profit industry and while it has similarities to gambling it really isn't gambling.

As I said the issue is how people have begun to use health insurance, it shouldn't be covering heck ups and small simple procedures that should the financed in other ways

Insurance should be catastrophe only, you pay every month or every year so that if you get cancer or break your neck you will be able to pay.

If you get bronchitis and go to the doc and get a z-PAC. That should be out of pocket.

It is not usery, student loans are usery. You don't owe insurance anything but the premium charge, you can cancel at any time and you are free to read over the terms and conditions of the contract it's all available to you.

AND legally if there is any ambiguity in an insurance contract courts always rule in favor of the insured because of the unfair advantage insurance companies have over the insured.

Insurance is not a trick, people for some reason believe it is a reserve and that they pay monthly now so that whatever happens they are covered like a big group fund

And that's not what it is

1, 2 and 3 are in my view correct. There is a push towards over-insurance today in Australia. It isn't to cover a house burning down. It is to cover a standard visit to an optometrist.

I was with a friend the other day and he was complaining that insurance didn't cover the cost of seeing an obstetrician. Why should it cover the cost of an obstetrician? If the baby came out and was tragically ill, insurance should cover that. The fact that a Dr was needed for a birth shouldn't be covered.

You described the bet that I described. Whether you use it for disaster coverage or common everyday bullshit doesn't really matter because ultimately the disaster coverage cost less because it's a safer bet for the insurance company. You're talking about the same shit in a different toilet.

Also the fact that you can cancel it anytime does not negate the necessity of having coverage. Insurance companies have driven up the cost of health care so much that without it it's not feasible to pay out of pocket.

Excuse my ignorance. How do they drive up the price of basic healthcare?

I can understand pushing towards more expensive stuff. But simple things in america seem expensive.

Bad laws that allow litigation drove prices up in australia, but then they were changed and our prices became better

It would bring the prices of what down? The health care?

And so everyone would magically start to have $5000 available standing by in case they get injured in a car accident, or when you cause a car accident you will magically have $20 000 standing by to pay for the damage and injury you inflicted?

Not saying the health insurance system in place in America isn't fucked and overpriced, by insurance as a concept is incredibly useful.

Loan providers are also in a for profit business. But both of these business are based on wagers. The banks wager that you'll pay it back and base your percentage rate off of that risk to offset the risk. Insurance companies do the same thing. They base your premium on the likely hood of illness. Which was the whole reason for the Obama care mandate here. We need to offset the risk they take insuring pre existing conditions by raising premiums for healthy people. Now everyone is forced onto the same shitty but level playing Field.

You must be a hoot at parties

You need to read the op. I stated the solution to the inability to afford in the event of disaster.

Ive been here a while. This bullshit about pol being nothing but one big joke is fairly new. It used to be concise with jokes in the mix. The laughs were secondary to discussion. Not the reason for it.

If you think insurance is a scam then self reserve, the fact is without insurance removing a major factor of risk very little would get done.

So go ahead don't buy any and have fun in bankruptcy court

That is exactly my point I can't not buy health insurance. If it didn't exist the prices would not be so goddamn exorbitant. Health companies are going to charge what they know a health insurance company is willing to pay

Not to mention that health insurance is such a scam that I can't even self reserve anymore were that my decision. That level of financial responsibility has been deemed illegal due to an irresponsibility of others

I'm not talking about just health insurance your view is myopic

The problem with health insurance is that it is being used like a spending account and that's not how insurance works

If you want affordable premiums health insurance needs to only be used like other types of insurance for large infrequent and fortuitous losses

Insurance is quite literally the opposite of gambling. It's a (supposedly) affordable hedge against a medical emergency. I realize you are 16 years old and still on mommy and daddy's insurance plan, but take 5 seconds to think about what you post.

This is incorrect. You spend more money on insurance than you would otherwise use in the event of catastrophy.

Lower risk of long-term financial ruin = lower care for avoiding certain easily-avoided mistakes despite knowledge of what can cause such ruin being spread very effectively today.

Insurance companies send out fliers on healthy tips constantly, and most people just trash these. The companies do it because they want people to be healthy so they pay their monthly without calling upon the insurance to cover it.

If you instead banked or invested the money you would otherwise spend on insurance you would have your own healthcare fund. On top of that, networking with friends and family can provide a safety net in the event of serious life-threatening illness or injury, such that these people do not want you to die due to how much you have helped them in the past and may continue to do so. This provides a near-guaranteed fundraiser for your cancer or whatever. There's also elderly care, where is where having kids and raising them right comes in so that they have the means and the will to move you in in your old age.

Insurance is not an usury scam, it's a redistribution scam. The companies will always take a cut off the top. If you have a network of people who you are in good relations with then you come out on top. This is why people who live in cities and are disconnected from their fellows love insurance and universal healthcare, because despite having so many potential deep interpersonal relationships they're socially split into those who are ready to backstab each other at a moment's notice and those who are social islands.

First of all you are talking about health insurance. Second of all what you're talking about leaves out the entirety of the purpose of the conversation I'm trying to have. Health insurance has driven the price of healthcare up. Yes if all that was covered by insurance companies as a whole was disaster then you are right that the health care cost would go down. But as you stated insurance companies are a for-profit business and anywhere a profit can be seen it will be pursued. They are making the same exact bet between disaster coverage and say a PPO plan. The difference is the odds and therefore the premium cost. And while yes the premium costs are getting to be exorbitant , this is only a result of insurance companies driving up the price of healthcare being reflected in the cost of said premium.

It is only affordable because of the people who pay for it and don't use it. That's why you join an insurance group. A for-profit company that stands to finance can only remove money from the system adding cost to the buyer. It is not a hedge it is a gamble. More likely than not stand to lose more than you will gain. You are quite literally betting bi-monthly via subscription that eventually you will be sick enough to require Health Care. The insurance company is gambling that within your group, the total some of premiums paid will be enough to offset the risk of having to pay out for healthcare in the event a couple of people in the group get sick. There is a good chance that you will never see a return on the investment of insurance especially with a disaster plan. In fact that actually needs to happen in order for a insurance company to be for-profit. This is precisely why they needed to mandate that everyone have insurance so that the healthy are also in the pool.

Please respond

Sorry man I'm driving it's easy to miss something. Because of the legwork involved with procuring payment from an insurance company, and the fact that they are, in the event the consumer is covered for a condition, required to pay whatever the cost may be, the price has gone up to meet what the market will bare.

Insurance will pay whatever the cost will be within a specific margin. Doctors and hospitals charge more money towards the top end of that margin and they provide a bill after services have already been rendered so comparison shopping is absurdly difficult. On top of this Doctors can try to justify the cost through their student debt payments and their value to society. It's a side note but I also think both student loans and government-paid university should be abolished with insurance.

Basically, Doctors charge what insurance will pay. Insurance pays it. Individuals' fees go up. Doctors increase cost. Insurance pays it. Individuals' fees go up. Etc.

Same happens with tax-paid/student loan-paid university.

Guaranteeing payment no matter what the service or product will be is a road to economic disaster as it causes runaway price inflation for that service or product (or industry).

> Muh nigga

>Good fuckin show

Speculate as to what would happen if we got rid of health insurance companies as a whole and instituted The Loan program that was mentioned in the op? 0% interest loan provided by government with the pool funded via healthcare distribution tax.

What is better saving up or health care?

*insurance

The root issue in this country is that we subsidize the lifestyles of the obese (40% of the population) through welfare and guaranteed healthcare. The cost multiple of an obese person with diabetes compared to a fit American is astronomical. These disgusting slob morons are dragging the entire country down with them while we incentivize them to continue gorging themselves.

The idea of insurance is works as long as we're dealing with healthy individuals who want to make sure they get treatment once they get ill in the future. Problem with depending on insurance is that there will always be people with pre-existing conditions. Example could be a person born with a defect. You're basically fucked.

The main problem you guys have with health insurance is the rule that insurers can't discriminate against preexisting conditions. So people can just not get insured (the fine from Obamacare is less than insurance and it's loosely enforced) then wait till they get sick and buy insurance after. That means there are fewer healthy people paying into the insurance pool which drives up the price for those that are (further incentivising people to not buy insurance until they need it).

Universal health care is the answer. It doesn't matter how Americans twist and turn their answers on the basis of "Muh individual rights". The only problem with universal health care in the US is that you have millions of illegals and a huge portion of the minority population that will contribute nothing to the universal health care fund.

Yeah it works for the insurance company. A healthy individual will pay monthly for something he will never use. The user who called it a redistribution scam hit the nail on the head.

As far as pre-existing conditions go there is no right way to work that. It breaks the scam. It literally makes it an unsafe bet. If we got rid of health insurance altogether the cost would go down and be affordable again and to boot for those who cannot pay a loan subsidized by the government with 0% interest and funded by medical distribution tax with low minimum payment would be in my opinion a decent enough solution

That is not a problem with health insurance. It is a problem that health insurance has when faced with the reality of having gained so much traction that it is a scam become status quo. It is now the standard and therefore must appeal to everyone. The reality is that it cannot and therefore should not be the standard

Health Care is already Universal. Anybody who needs Healthcare can go get it. The method of payment is what is in question. America is a capitalist Society and we believe in the individual's responsibility to pay their own way where possible. Universal Health Care is always paid for. It's a matter of how money is redistributed to do it. In my personal opinion socialism is not the answer because it deincentivizes doctors to do the job as well as they could because it fixes prices and at the same time guarantees job security

If you have ever been to a VA Hospital or been stuck in Canada's Health System you would know exactly how bad socialized medicine can really be. It's slow and it lacks quality.

On one hand insurance allows for more expensive treatment then a person could be expected to afford in any reasonable time. Expect people to save up in case shit and you will be dissapointed.

While this only helps the single person at the expense of everyone this does help drive medical development. Driving the technology that will help us all.

On the other hand it also likely causes over inflated prices all over the place. And other side effects basically fucking with how money is applied everywhere in the medical industry.

So its a tough thing to work out.

>3. Health insurance has morphed into some kind of body maintaninence plan. If you used auto insurance every time you needed an oil change or home insurance every time your washing machine broke they would be outrageously expensive as well.

Let me point out that a ton of insurance plans have gone up to 5k deductibles. Which basically in the US is only paying for catastrophes. And yet you still pay out the ass for it. At no point did it go down.

So why not use a 0% interest loan from the government paid for by healthcare taxes? Any amount due because of delinquency would come out of your tax return or neet bux. Also because of the lack of Interest the minimum payment could be anything as long as you are paying something towards it and making an effort to pay it off.

This is a good and well debated thread. Thanks OP.

Also just so you guys know in case you're new , this is what discussions on Pol looked like not that long ago. There are a few blemishes. Some people will always assume they are correct and assume superiority from that assumption. it used to take a little while but eventually people realized that there was no pecking order on an anonymous image board and the focus was on ideas not idealism. Galvanization of ideology only serves to subvert the process that used to make this place so great.

Beat me to it. Thank you

Dental plan