Do you still believe in Democracy?

Do you still believe in Democracy?

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No.

You don't believe a majority of people wouldn't reject such a headline?

No. Democracy was never an objectively good form of government. The only reason why democracies are so prevalent today are that democracies are a very stable form of government. Autocracies in their various forms collapse due to power struggles and succession crises. Democracies generally do not have this problem. Democracies also tend not to collapse into civil unrest and civil war, as the citizens are fooled into believing they have a say in governance. The average person is more likely to swallow poison given a choice of flavor.

I think it would be better if the bottom 80-90% of the people wouldn't get involved, especially women.

No, it's a purely sentimental concept with little practical value (or even idealistic value).

western people are gone

This was the case with the original form of the American republic. Only white male land owners could vote, which excluded the vast majority of people.

good summary. Policy-wise, democracy is just as shit as any other system tried (maybe even worse), but it's better at placating the masses.

>part of the solution
The final solution?

Kek

I like democracy tempered by republicanism

No. Democracy + Jews = bad news

No

There is other solution?

You can have a truly democratic system with also having a Republic?

>inb4 England

The UK is not a democracy.

Nope. I've pretty much lost all shred of faith in democracy.

there is only one solution for europe

I believe that democracy is only possible when all participants are fascists.

fuck no. Democracy=Jews play thing

I believe in it with strict immigration controls. It's ridiculous that if a party doesn't have enough voters, then can just import a bunch of immigrants and instantly gain voters. That is a clear violation of the principles of democracy, and yet no one seems to view it that way.

Also, I feel like the "voting" process is an overrated aspect of democracy, strange as that sounds. What people like the most about democracy is actually the debate aspect and always having to consider different viewpoints. But now that we live in a culture that doesn't even want to debate hot button issues (immigration for instance) then I feel we can hardly call it a democracy anyway.

In an ideal democracy, voting isn't as important as listening to everyone's voice, considering the options and having discussions and multiple points of view. Voting is something that helps that process, but you can't just say voting is the only element necessary.

No.

The only true democracy would be one where the people vote on every decision.

Demos = people
Krateo = to have power

People don't have shit to say in (((democracies)))

As long as only white land owning males get a vote like the founding fathers intended, yes.

you are all larping there is no place for the white man in eurpe

Rule by the idiot masses. Fuck no. Republicanism. The us isn't a democracy anyway.

human intelligence is magnified in groups, but only in certain configurations. democracy is not one of these configurations but it's better than not utilizing crowd intelligence at all.

If we have a Democracy, we should do like the Romans and Greeks and only allow citizens to vote. Requirements are debatable, you should have at least a high school diploma, have an IQ of at least 100, no retards, immigrants can not vote in that country for at least 3 generations having been born in that country.

Representative Democracy has always been an oligarchic system making the many think they have power they never had

After the Ron Paul elections it's hard to take American democracy seriously. There was just so much bullshit. That's why I was skeptical about Trump in the back of my mind, he only really had resistance from the media, but I wanted so badly to believe.

It has to be some pretty severe tempering in order to make it workable.

I've long favored the idea of a poll tax. Basically a significant fee you have to pay in order to vote. Nothing so large as to be out of reach for the average citizen, but large enough such that fools and those without the ability to delay gratification will choose not to pay it. You'd also have to make sure the fee scales with inflation. Maybe have it pegged at the market price of a certain basket of goods, like two cases of beer and a carton of cigarettes.

Let potential voters self-select themselves out of the voting pool by demonstrating their preference for immediate pleasure over civic duty.

In an all-white society wherein only men can vote? Absolutely. In 2017 America? FUCK no. Bring on Hitler part deux: electric boogaloo

Only college vote, what can go wrong? The citizenship requirement, should be military service, only those that know what motherland mean, to the point of dying for it, should vote.

The only democracy I respect is referenda, I guess that's why Switzerland has been so successful, they have referendums on everything.

>But now that we live in a culture that doesn't even want to debate hot button issues
>a culture

There's the problem. It's not a single culture anymore. It's two cultures. The leftist control of media for three generations has finally caused the American culture to undergo fission. Now you have two ideologically independent peoples sharing the same land. It's a recipe for disaster.

Only in a population with an average IQ of at least 95, preferably 100. Anything lower is the danger zone.

>Only college vote
Are you daft? More women then men have college degrees, and most of them are liberal arts degrees.

No

It was a joke about IQ fags.

but a college education doesn't affect IQ, not enough to matter anyway. IQ is the result of being genetically, mentally competent.

Democracy is pretty shit.

I could get behind something like in Heinlein's starship troopers where only people that have sacrificed for the state have a say in how the state is run.

I could also get behind only giving people that are net tax contributors the right to vote.

IQ don't show a thing, there are good based people with low IQ, and ilumati level jew with a fucking high IQ.
This guy understand.

>Democracy

Fuck no. No one with a brain does.
>US is a REPUBLIC.
>ROME was a REPUBLIC
>VENICE was a REPUBLIC (lasted 700 years)

Every one of these started with very restricted voting privileges.

Rome - Upper middle to upper classes had 2/3 of the voting power, even within the "Plebian" assemblies

Venice - Majority of the population had no say in the government, even nominally.

US - Even here there were originally property requirements among white men

No. Republicanism is better

>I could also get behind only giving people that are net tax contributors the right to vote.

Should be restricted even further than that. See my poll tax proposal:

Good people with low IQ yes, but they are less capable than you or I. The best solution to the voting question is the original American system, land owners only. They are the true citizens with a stake in the nation, and the requirement acts as a filter to keep out some of the chaff.

or better yet: have your vote be worth the total amount you've payed in taxes over your lifetime minus what you've taken out in benefits and services
instead of voting and paying taxes, you buy a share in the government, and that share is worth one vote, and you keep buying more and more shares each tax season
you pay for public services by selling the shares and vote with the ones you have left over. And shares you die with are passed on to your children.
>this system favors the industrious over the lazy
>men over women
>native born over immigrants
>families with deep roots in the nation
>high IQ over low IQ
>older over younger
>self made over system dependent
all things that point to fiscally conservative values and can reconcile libertarian/conservative principles with democracy

Military or land citizenship work for me, but IQ and education as bar are terrible.

I should probably keep this thread in the archive and then bring it up to prove Sup Forums are authoritarian hacks who are against the very concept of democracy

You guys literally share values with fundamentalist muslims and your beliefs have nothing to do with what makes the west great

In Greek City-States, where there were fewer restrictions on "Democracy", you will note they are in fact, the LEAST stable form of government.

They almost immediately degenerate into mob rule, which stops only when a monarch/dictator restores order.

Historically, Oligarchies tend to be the most stable. Republic of Venice lasted 700 years, and only ended because of Napoleon.

"Republics" are in the best conception, really oligarchies that are nominally democratic.

What about those with physical disabilities that prevent them from joining the military?

Why should they be denied voting rights?

First there are NC jobs in army, second if they are really that disabled, yes they shouldn't vote.

So a bunch of limousine liberals and celebrities, dedicated to tearing the country apart, outweigh hard-working middle class Americans?

Education for sure, any asshole can get an education. You're right about the land and military, but good luck getting it implemented. People don't realize that universal suffrage means that all ought to be able to earn the vote, not that all have it automatically.

Apparently, if you don't think rent-seeking proles should have equal say in the state as those willing to fight/die for its preservation, you're an authoritarian.

Universal suffrage is a VERY modern conception, and is proving to be a failure.

Something something existential validation.

Something something triggered.

Something something identity crisis.

lol wut?

They only have that ability because the proles are given equal power, and THEY benefit from the destruction of the state. Those you describe are only their enablers.

There's no political solution to our problems. Once the people realise this and start mobilising, we will have a Europe and world cleansed of niggotry and islamo-feminist anti-fascism

That's a really good point. For democracy to flourish it really needs to be a single culture.

I will never understand the modern love of multiculturalism. It does not make for a cohesive, well working society at all.

Yes. I never thought of Democracy as the perfect form of government but I do very much believe that every citizen should have the right to say what kind of government they want and what kind of policies they want to see enacted. Whether it be the lowest janitor or the highest earning CEO to the average scientist. Everyone gets their own say. Not everyone will agree on what's best for society, hell hardly anyone will agree with each other. But with discussion and compromise we'll get there eventually. I'm just not very fond of the idea of a group of people dictating what's best for me.

I'm not so sure. Germanic tribesman conquering (without a fight) the fat, demoralized, and lazy welfare state that became Rome comes to mind.

Like you said, education is a shitty metric. Joe Welder from North Dakota doesn't get a vote, but some Stacy with a BA in Intersectional Interpretive Queefing does.

Military service is hit or miss as well. Remember that for every combat arms soldier there are 10+ pogues who aren't exactly sacrificing anything sitting in an air conditioned office.

Net taxes paid is also a shitty metric, given that there are plenty of rich liberal idiots in the urban areas who have lived their entire lives in a leftist bubble, and plenty of great people living in rural areas who are just barely scraping by and haven't paid much in taxes due to low incomes.

The best way is a poll tax. Let everyone regardless of education, service, income, whatever, have the opportunity to decide whether or not the ability to vote is worth forgoing a significant part of their disposable income. Allow those willing to self-sacrifice for the good of the country to choose themselves.

Democracy in nothing more than meme government to placate the masses
Much like engineering something it has to many points of failure to be reliable
the shitty thing is that you relies there's no way to replace it either humans fuck every thing up
it's never the systems fault it's always user error

The Germanic tribesmen are still here, Romans aren't.

Besides, the national character of people does not change so easily. It just gets masked.
>All you need to do is scratch off the surface a little bit

youtu.be/BVoqAgoiXq4 -

No they should not. It is insane to give equal power to those who profit from the states destruction (welfare recipients) the same say as those who profit from its existence (ordinary citizens). No society on earth, with the exception of the Roman Empire, has done something this stupid.

As stated above, the Roman Empire was so degenerated by this welfare state, that Germanic tribesman conquered it WITHOUT A FIGHT.

I can see that getting abused too easily though, in the end it has to be tied to land ownership. Land is the only universal sovereign, ethnic, nationalist, moral currency and it represents the state at its most basic. The land and the people, inseparable symbol of a nation.

How much of your land is owned by foreigners or corporations?

I hope you are right. But Europe has a massive welfare state similar to the Roman Empire. Many of Europe's people are comfortable and specifically protected from hardship. Like Rome, they don't even defend themselves militarily (US does) .

Not given the current circumstances. Can democracy work when the ruling body can just invite in people that will be more likely vote for them and thus keep them in power? No, it's a failure then.

only in direct democracy and if women and ragheads can't vote.

Land + Pay taxes + Born in country or 25+ years of residence.

You can exchange 25+ more year for 5 years in a front-line.

>given that there are plenty of rich liberal idiots in the urban areas who have lived their entire lives in a leftist bubble, and plenty of great people living in rural areas who are just barely scraping by and haven't paid much in taxes due to low incomes.
on average, the people who vote for government expansion are the people who benefit from it the most
as long as it's ($ paid in-$ you've taken out) it will tend to get more and more conservative over time

If you want to get to the crux of it, land ownership requirements were a proxy for your ability and willingness to engage in military service.

No land
>Can't afford armor/weapons
>Won't give a fuck if state burns

Democracy has failed. Authority is force, etc. come on you apes you wanna live forever

citizenship is still a requirement, chinamen can buy it up but unless they immigrate and take the oath they can't vote.

...

Are there actual people on Sup Forums right now who don't believe all citizens about the age of conscription should have the right to vote?

I miss the European monarchs and autocrats. Where did the time go?

It has never worked.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep arguing over who to have for dinner.

Are there any democracies anymore? All of Europe are pretty much socialist countries, and the United States at least originally is set up to be a constitutional republic. When people try to say the U.S. is a democracy that is such a farce.

For civil matters, sure. Not so much for scientific ones, you can't vote to repeal the laws of thermodynamics.

pretty much, its the only logical system. those with a stake can make the decisions, all others can aspire to get to that point.

Why should a welfare recipient, who benefits more from destroying the state, have equal say to those who benefit from its preservation?

Conscription has always been an awful idea. Warfare has always been the province of the middle and upper classes. If you look at Vietnam, you'll see that low IQ retards were less than useless in warfare. They just held them in camps basically, as they would cause too much danger to others if let out on patrol.

>wut? there are people out there that don't think the fickle, selfish desires of the ignorant masses should be the ultimate deciders of a nations future
yes

democracy has failed the west

as one who descended from elites, NO. No matter the system... it's all down to a small group... an organized group associated with the same ideals... "Mob" for short. that calls all the shots for their benefit.

Regular people are peons to be used as canon fodder.

Terrorism ONLY HURTS THE POOR. The elite have private security and are comfortable in their high-walled, heavily guarded compounds.
Revolutions merely reset the game, the elite are nicely protected during entire revolution, ready to plunder your future society again and again.

This is the way it has ALWAYS been.

Never did to begin with. I believe in a Republic of Laws.

Of course, no society can function with universal sufferage, it's one of the most deranged ideas ever dreamt up in the minds of perverse leftists with sad childhoods.

Exactly. Additionally, if the state's power is from power we delegate, then how can those unwilling/unable to defend said state be given a say in its operation? That delegated power should serve those who delegated it IMO.

ummm...

barter economy?

ummm...

corporate boycott?

ummm...

assassinate narcissists?

What a piss poor understanding of Roman history. Stilicho and Majorian fucking suplexed the shit out of Germans their entire tenure in power. Honorius and Ricimer are the two most responsible parties for the Western Empire falling as everything they did ended in catrastrophe.

democracy failed, collective psyche hasnt accepted it yet

Which was the last time the government actually worked.

This is bullshit btw, when things go to to real shit the elites got slaughtered.

Look up the boston mansion massacre during the whisky rebellion.

there's nothing more corrupting than a wealthy narcissist.

No.

Explain.

hey kike, don't use white inventions like the internet, cultural appropriation is NOT okay.

This also serves to cultivate a decent population who aspire to become part of the nation by work, service, and learning. In microbiology, we use different media (petri dishes) based on the type of bacteria we want to isolate. We modulate the parameters of the media to select to promote one type of organism while inhibiting the others. A nation is the same way, egalitarianism has created a media too unspecified that allows p. mirabalis (gibs) to supplant the healthy, desired microbes.