CALLING ALL HONEST LIBERALS

I'm a fairly conservative guy, but have some liberal beliefs. What I'm concerned about, however, is that liberals are burrowing into deeper echo chambers and are, on youtube, twitter, and reddit, for example, not just failing to address and acknowledge criticism, but are actually shutting it down and doing everything they can to make it disappear.

If there are any liberals out there who are also troubled by this phenomenon (and it's not exclusive to liberals, they just do it more blatantly and seem to have most support from social media companies), let's talk.

Here are issues I would love to debate with liberals but don't want to be banned from social media for starting a thread about it:

1. If a person gets to decide what gender they identify as, what is stopping them from deciding what age or colour they identify as? Each of those have observable, scientific classifiers.

2. During the 2016 election, why did most liberals try to brush off Clinton's egregious and well-documented lies, including her destruction of emails following the congressional subpoena and her FBI investigation which showed that she was both grossly negligent and had lied about the classification of said emails? Does this not make liberals disingenuous when it comes to corruption and lying, even if they were just trying to win the election?

3. Do you find it at all troubling when a gay or lesbian couple seems to be pushing their child towards living a gay or lesbian lifestyle, or when a transsexual (or otherwise very left-wing) parent seems to do the same to his/her child? Are conservatives the only ones who think it's ridiculous to intentionally interrupt a child's puberty on the off-chance that they have genuine insight about a concept they almost certainly don't understand (sexuality and attraction)? Is there harm in letting them reach puberty before facilitating things like hormone treatment and testosterone blockers?

Honest replies appreciated.

Other urls found in this thread:

scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

I'm a liberal
But I'm a conservative

Us vs them mentality.

Please explain.

I'm liberal on drugs, and being anti-war, and hating corporate dominance of the middle-class (but accepting it as a necessary evil). But fairly conservative on everything else.

In the land of the free, you have the liberty to raise your children how you see fit. Federal government should stay the fuck out. Aren't conservatives afraid of Trump's legal issues and is rampant dishonest business deals? Why do THEY brush it off. You identify as user, that is who you are and makes you YOU. Jiggaboos don't call themselves black, but they identify with the culture of said black people. There lies the difference, being part of the culture but not necessarily being part of the ethnic group it stems from.

>raise your children how they see fit.

People lose custody of their children because they do things that are generally accepted to be harmful to them. These includes withholding medication. Permanently disrupting their natural development, I think, should fall under that same category.

>conservatives afraid of Trump's legal issues

Yes, I think they are. Now some of them are stubbornly clinging to the illusion that Trump is a good president. He's not. An honest conservative will admit that. But an honest conservative might also settle for saying that he's still better than Clinton. But putting all that party loyalty aside, Clinton's corruption pre-election was much more frightening to me than Trump's pre-election issues (including is apparent ignorance of what being president entails).

>identities

Points of self-identification are vast. But biological facts about oneself are observable, well-documented, and scientifically meaningful.

You're conflating the left with liberal which is the first fuckup.

You're second fuckup is to imply that liberals appear to be the more onerous practioners of being trapped in their bubbles when I think it is fairly easy to show that this phenomenon is occurring across the ideological spectrum and Sup Forums is an easy example of it.

As far as honest debate goes, you will hardly find it. I've found the more righteous a person is in their politics the less you ought to try and persuade them because generally it will only be through a personal experience that one will begin to change their views.

Lastly, I'll attempt to touch on your question about Clinton b/c your questions about gays / trans and all that bullshit is essentially shit tier identity politics that I couldn't care for.

Anyway, this goes back to what I identified as your first fuckup. If I were to define an American Liberal, I'd argue it bends center right, not left. Sure, social policy may run to the left but their is a strain of this that a leaf like you may recognize - 'progressive conservative'. Otherwise economically they run very much to the right.

The reason they do not want to recognize the faults of Clinton's campaign is that it would mean having to actually turn the democratic party to the left. And anytime someone to the left of a liberal emerges they try to drown them in the bathtub ala Bernie Sanders.

I'm drunk right now and just popped a benadryl for my shit allergies but I would definitely recommend reading Thomas Frank's 'Listen, Liberal' or even listening to him on YouTube about the failure of Liberals and why they have wiped out the left.

Good night anons

>conflating the left and liberals.

How is that a conflation? Anyway, night, night.

>Aren't conservatives afraid of Trump's legal issues and is rampant dishonest business deals
well when you've made thousands upon thousands of honest deals, that enable 30,000 plus people to have a livelihood
its a rather hard sell to paint someone as dishonest when their new jersey casino fails or they have no idea how to create a university for realtors

Quick Cole note before I pass out listen to Phil ochs love me I'm a liberal .


Just like the right, the left has a lot of flavors. Calling anyone on the left a liberal is a mistakew

I don't classify myself as anything, but I get called a liberal, leftist and a commie here all the time.

1.If they want to add definitions to accommodate gender to mean levels of femininity or masculinity or whatever they fuck they've done, that's ok. It's irritating, but ok. There are only three sexes, though:male, female and mutation. There's no biological benefit to producing non-reproductive transsexuals in a population whatsoever. They shouldn't be shunned or anything. I wish them health, happiness and social acceptance to live they way they feel best, but they need to be realistic. They deserve every right and privilege as everyone else and zero oppression, but I don't have to date one, and I'm not committing one fucking second to remembering an almost religious spectrum of gender definitions. I know it's not just a fetish. I don't think they're deviants or degenerates; I believe it's a mental illness where the cure is so impossible, and the sickness so un-harmful (aside from social stigma) that it's better for the happiness of the patient if they're allowed to live as they believe they should. I also believe that gender "roles" are socially dictated, so go ahead and shave your legs and wear a dress. Take hormones and pamper yourself like a woman. I'm happy for ya, but you're still male. No further ambiguities need surface.

2. Unlike many liberals, I don't latch onto a candidate just because I'm being told to. I think Clinton sucked just as hard as Trump, but for totally different reasons. I defend nothing she did and am glad she's not our president. At the same time, Trump is indefensible, but conservatives would pull out some 4d chess silver lining bullshit if he shit his pants. I don't get the blind loyalty to that prick. Be objective.

3. Long comment. Next post.

Anyone who thinks USA Liberalism is Left needs to go back to fucking school.

US Dems are the definition of Laissez-fair Right wing. I hate it when these things are pooled together.

3. I don't think that happens. I think they try as hard as they can to make sure that their children think it's ok to be gay, but they don't actively push them to be gay. Most likely, they all had such a hard time coming out, that they wouldn't wish it on their children. It's just not logical. Exceptions exist, I'm sure, because some people are fucking garbage in every part of society, but it's just not a widespread problem. It's more likely that the number of times that has happened this century all across the globe is negligible. If it does happen, it's 100% wrong and should not be allowed. The child will choose for him/herself, just like everyone should.

Children should be allowed to develop first. They should be able to choose for themselves at some age, but no kid knows what the fuck is going on before puberty.

>I'm liberal
A LEAF

Clinton was a shitshow. The most honest definition of neocon US jewdom.
But the only real reason she lost, unlike so many r_donnies think here, was not addressing the white middle class workers. Period.

And that was Sanders' real base, not SJWs, millenials, or whatever trash people say. Which most likely switched over to Donald.

The US democratic party is a joke.

>1. If a person gets to decide what gender they identify as, what is stopping them from deciding what age or colour they identify as? Each of those have observable, scientific classifiers.
Honestly with race I don't really care, if a black guy wants to call himself white he can do that, it really doesn't affect anyone else. That's why I don't care about transgender shit either, for the most part a man calling himself a woman doesn't hurt me or anyone else. As for age, that's a problem because it can have very harmful consequences, like a 60 year old pedo claiming to be a mental 10 year old to justify fucking prepubescent girls (which is exactly what Sup Forums came up with as a Twitter troll campaign last year). To me, when it comes to gay dudes, or dudes who want to be women, or dudes who want to be attack helicopters, if the biggest harm they cause is minor discomfort to me then I don't mind. When they force it down my throat I draw the line, and I'll get to that with your 3rd question.

>2. During the 2016 election, why did most liberals try to brush off Clinton's egregious and well-documented lies, including her destruction of emails following the congressional subpoena and her FBI investigation which showed that she was both grossly negligent and had lied about the classification of said emails? Does this not make liberals disingenuous when it comes to corruption and lying, even if they were just trying to win the election?
The same reason a lot of Trump supporters easily shrugged off his flaws, they were already cemented in their positions and since this election was "the lesser of two evils" they would vote for anyone over Trump even if their candidate was a literal criminal. Personally I voted against Clinton (for Bernie) in the primary and against Clinton (for Trump out of spite) in the presidential election. I wanted Clinton to lose at all costs so that DNC would realize they can't just fuck us over with shitty candidates and win.

I used the phrase to refer generally to the left-wing which voted Democrat, supported Hillary, loves to shut down opposition, wants speech codes on college campuses, hates everything about Trump, and probably loved Bernie.

It's an umbrella term.

The American left is currently calling for free gov't funded tuition, free government-funded health care, free gov't funded contraception, free gov't funded abortion, and open border.

How in the fuck is that laissez-fair right wing?

Sup Forumslacks don't feel right if they can't immediately categorize you, and therefore be able to predict your even viewpoint without asking. The more extreme the label, the more they feel they're winning the argument, simply because they believe that just by applying the label, they've divinely discredited you as a heretic to the truth in politics. I may mention a benefit of a relatively socialist program, and I'll be called a fucking commie and a leftist within three posts on here. The USA outside of Sup Forums is a very different place.

That's a good point. Just the ones that do happen get blown up and talked about more so it appears to be more common than it is.

But with the hormone therapy and things like that, there are several high-profile examples of that and it seems like there was never any debate or legislative discussion about parents interrupting the natural development of their children.

>3. Do you find it at all troubling when a gay or lesbian couple seems to be pushing their child towards living a gay or lesbian lifestyle, or when a transsexual (or otherwise very left-wing) parent seems to do the same to his/her child? Are conservatives the only ones who think it's ridiculous to intentionally interrupt a child's puberty on the off-chance that they have genuine insight about a concept they almost certainly don't understand (sexuality and attraction)? Is there harm in letting them reach puberty before facilitating things like hormone treatment and testosterone blockers?
Yes I find this extremely troubling but it's also more complicated than that. I consider a gay couple raising a kid and pressuring him to be gay, on par with a straight couple pressuring their kid to be straight. Let the kid like what he likes, whether it's boys girls both or neither. So I completely agree with you there, that's fucked up. However, the transgender thing is a lot more complicated. If your son tells you that he's transgender and he wants to be a girl, you're put in an extremely difficult position. If you give your kid hormones, put him through female puberty, and essentially turn him into a 90% biological woman with a penis, he could end up realizing that it was just him being a dumb kid going through a phase. Then he's stuck as a feminine lady boy for his whole life because you let him make that decision. However, on the other hand, if you don't let him transition into a girl during his childhood, he'll end up being a man in a dress that can barely pass as a drag queen, and if he still feels that he's transgender he'll hate you forever for not letting him go on hormones and turn into a cute girl. In the situation of a transgender child you're faced with a decision that could ruin your kid's life no matter what you choose. But yes generally I agree with you that people forcing their kids to be gay/trans should lose custody of their kids.

Both parties are jokes. It's a charade.

hate to cast a pearl before a swine but your entire ideology CAN be categorized in a belief of surplus theft
which has never been proven

I'm not liberal. I stated that in the OP explicitly.

My liberal beliefs:
>all drugs should be legal
>US shouldn't intervene in foreign countries' internal affairs
>corporations and government should not be in bed with each other

Conservative beliefs:
>there should be no impediments to free speech
>there should be no hate crime laws
>abortion is wrong (still not sure on how to address that from a legislative perspective)
>secure the border, evict illegal immigrants
>no government subsidies for corporations
>private health with a public option for veterans, the disabled, and the elderly
>low taxes
>no nation building/foreign aid except for natural disasters

Come at me kiwi

What does that make me, then?

I come from /leftypol/ so im not a liberal but I'll give you my view
1) I don't give a shit if dude's wanna pretend to be girls. If this is an issue about toilets, I really don't think this people using this as an excuse to be perverts will be happening en masse.
2) Fuck everyone of the Clintons. Neoconservative trash
3)Yes, I do find it troubling. SRS and HRT should be left off until after 18 when they are adults. After that, let them do as they please.

Hormones during or before puberty is very common in Thailand. It prevents them from ever developing male features in the first place.

1. I think people should be able to identify as a robot dog if they'd like to but that doesn't mean anyone else has to acknowledged it including the state who doesn't need to change anything about someone's legal ID if it's too retarded, just like how you can't legally change your name to Adolf Hitler as a joke if the judge thinks you're taking the piss too much.

2. American politics is off the charts retarded and people would still vote democrat if Hillary admitted to being a serial killer because there are only two options and they just want their party to win no matter what individual it involves, right wingers do the exact same thing every time.

3. I've never encountered gay or trans parents pushing it on their kids, the parents doing this are ironically always straight cis liberals trying to virtue signal as hard as possible and should be getting visits from CPS.

>1.
There are laws coming into place on college campuses making it discrimination to not address a person by their arbitrary pronouns. This is why anyone has heard of Jordan Peterson. And it's not going to become less and less of a problem. It's going to become worse and worse.

>2.
Fair enough.

>3.

>he'll end up as a man in a dress that can't pass as a woman

Yes, because he is a man in a dress. Not a woman. That is the entire point. If it takes an explicit, intentional intervention in the natural development of his body to make him "pass" for a woman, that's proof that gender isn't just mental, it's physiological too.

And to be clear, I'm not referring to parents "forcing" their kids to be trans. I'm referring to them letting their child dictate these life-changing actions which will have permanent effects on him, when we know and have always known that children have neither the mental capacity, the maturity, or the experience to make well-informed decisions about anything. So I'm opposed to parents (no matter how well-meaning) facilitating a child ruining his own life.

Former liberal and I couldn't agree more, which is why I know longer identify myself as left wing or liberal.

That's my point. It's a permanent interruption of their development.

(I'm a little disturbed that your example country was Thailand. Surely, it is done there for the lucrative ladyboy market).

liberals are like a disease, only progressive with no end in sight rotting away society gay/lesbian couples should not have kids and they should not screw with a child as far as hormone treatment and testosterone blockers sick fucks

Ha! I met one from Thailand. Puberty was interrupted at eleven years old, and the transition into a lie was begun immediately. I was told it's the norm. In terms of sexual orientation, they're very progressive. The ladyboy thing over there isn't nearly the upset that it is here. They do often end up as prostitutes, though.

Wow, agree completely.

>1. If a person gets to decide what gender they identify as, what is stopping them from deciding what age or colour they identify as? Each of those have observable, scientific classifiers.

Honestly, who cares? How does this affect me at all? If someone wants to identify as a 65 year old, that doesn't impose on anyone an imperative to follow it. There have always been people who didn't fit traditional gender roles, the only difference is now they're using the concept of gender to define themselves in opposition to it. But I don't know any trans people personally so I feel like it's mostly an abstract discussion that I can take or leave.

>During the 2016 election, why did most liberals try to brush off Clinton's egregious and well-documented lies, including her destruction of emails following the congressional subpoena and her FBI investigation which showed that she was both grossly negligent and had lied about the classification of said emails? Does this not make liberals disingenuous when it comes to corruption and lying, even if they were just trying to win the election?

I just don't care about the email thing. It's a non issue to me. Like pussy grabbing comments were a non-issue. And that's a totally separate concept from corruption. Corruption is where you engage in quid pro quo (like Trump and the chinese trademarks) or engage in conflicts of interest (like trump funneling money to his family businesses).

>Do you find it at all troubling when a gay or lesbian couple seems to be pushing their child towards living a gay or lesbian lifestyle, or when a transsexual (or otherwise very left-wing) parent seems to do the same to his/her child?

Again, this seems like something I don't really encounter IRL. It seems like a fringe might do this, similar to how some ultra-religious parents might homeschool their children to be anti-science fundamentalists.

I grew up Rush-Limbaugh-conservative and moderated in college, but my tastes and comfort levels are still very informed by my evangelical upbringing. So I think I'm a good person to take a stab at this.

First off, echo chambers (aka confirmation-bias-chambers) are universal. No one can avoid them, because damn if it doesn't feel great to be agreed with. Sure, all sides claim that the other side is worse about it, but we are all of us at fault.

1. In theory, there is nothing stopping this. Part of me agrees with your implied point that all of it is ridiculous. Sometimes I feed that part of me, because frankly I do find the whole thing kind of ridiculous. But at the same time, even though MtF transgenders (in particular) take me way out of my comfort zone, I hope I'm rational enough to realize that my reaction is purely emotional and that they should be free to live as they choose. To specifically answer your question, which aspects of identity society finds fluid enough to be self-defined are currently (and perhaps always) in flux. Race was very much a flexible social construct before the institution of American slavery, and still is in many parts of the world. Age itself may not be questioned, at least to my knowledge, but certainly the ways in which age limits or empowers an individual vary widely among cultures and change over time. Is a mixed race man who can pass as white denying an obvious, objective, scientific reality if he chooses to do so? Perhaps. But looked at another way, he is merely choosing which outwardly-imposed social constructs to embrace. When I put on my academic glasses, I view gender the same way. So much of gender is socially imposed that I often wonder to what degree most transgenders are seeking different social gender roles rather than true physical difference.

I'm a "liberal", I guess. So I'll rebuttle these arguments.

The first comment I make will generally be speaking from the opinions other liberals I speak with, the second will be my personal opinion.

1a) We think of gender as the social interpretation of a person's masculine/feminine traits. I'm not too avid on the whole many genders thing, myself, but I understand and interpret gender separately from sex. Gender is social interpretation, sex is biological. We don't think that you can identify as a different sex. But we, as a collective mass, don't give a shit what gender you are. Makes zero difference to us.

1b) Personally, the reason I think that you should be able to choose is because there's little to no telling whether or not someone's hormonal balance directly or even slightly correlates to their birth sex, (being an individual, not a doctor.) If I were assuming that they were just attention seeking, I could be wrong, and I could be being a bigot. Some people ARE born with gender dysphoria, and I have no right to assume that they're not.

2a) During the 2016 election, for the most part, we despised Hillary Clinton. The majourity of us did not want Hillary Clinton, and she was only nominated because of the rigged superdelegates. Nevertheless, the reason we brushed off the negligence and dishonesty was because we didn't want Donald Trump as our president. We just wanted someone other than Donald Trump, so we ignored all of her negative qualities and actions in favour of qualification, ability, and policy.

2b) I didn't. I just weighed my options after Bernie Sanders lost and thought Hillary Clinton was less dangerous than Donald Trump.

3) I didn't even know this was a legitimate issue. I've never heard this and have zero experience. I suppose I would have a problem if they forced it onto the child. But if you're referring to parents being more encouraging to express whatever sexuality the child feels, and referring to that as pushing, I don't.

Sorry to burst your bubble user, but there IS no end in sight. Every society constantly changes ideas about things. No one and nothing has ever stopped that from happening. This isn't a liberal view, but objective fact - completely irrefutable. No exception exists to the contrary ever in history. Conservatives want to slow that evolution down and liberals want to speed it up, but society can't not change. There is no end in sight. There never will be. There never should be. There is no goal post to reach where you never have to work at it again.

I'm a centrist who's definitely more liberal than conservative, so I'll give this a go. The identity politic questions are a turn-off, though.

1. Personally, gender to me is something that is psychological, where biological age and race are different. That doesn't mean that some behaviors from either genders aren't biologically-influenced, because they are.

2. Siding with your fellow party, defending Hillary, etc etc. I voted for her and was well-aware of the suspicious shit with her, but I didn't want Trump winning, simple as that. She may have been "corrupt" in some ways, but I agreed with her on issues much more than Trump, so that was the bottom line for me.

3. You're painting LGBT families with a very broad brush, and I can assure you this isn't how the majority of LGBT liberal families think. But yes, I think it's silly for the handful of those people to push whatever ideologies they have on their kids. However, that's the way things are. Whether we like it or not, most peoples' political opinions are formed by their parents. If transgendered parents really were as liberal as they claim to be, they'd respect whatever their kid chooses to identify as at an age where they actually have an idea of what the terminologies actually mean. Yes, there is definite harm in using hormone treatments and such BEFORE hitting puberty. This can throw a lot of things off as well as not letting the kid make a well-thought decision before going into something that's nearly impossible to totally reverse once started.

People on the left are retarded. People on the right are retarded.

If you're a liberal, you can't be a leftist. If you're a leftist, I want nothing to do with you. That is all.

>majourity
Brit posing as an American detected.

>There are laws coming into place on college campuses making it discrimination to not address a person by their arbitrary pronouns
I agree that's a problem because I'm against any form of censorship or punishment for free speech. I don't support that. However I do also have no problem referring to people by their preferred arbitrary pronouns, whether they pass as the gender of their choice or not.
>Yes, because he is a man in a dress. Not a woman. That is the entire point. If it takes an explicit, intentional intervention in the natural development of his body to make him "pass" for a woman, that's proof that gender isn't just mental, it's physiological too
Sure but transgender dysphoria is a real thing, it's been documented for a long time and from my personal experience talking to legit trannies it's a significant thing in their mind. Of course you could argue that's a mental disorder that should be treated instead of encouraged, and I can understand that. But if it can't be treated or cured medically, then the only way to make these guys happy is to turn them into cute girls. And they have to actually pass as cute girls (which if you've spent any time on Sup Forums you should know that's completely possible) to feel validated, the ones who just look like very obvious men in drag are always the least satisfied.

That's what leads me to the part about the kids choosing their own gender. If you let a kid transition early he'll grow up to be a completely passable woman and much happier if he really is transgender. But of course he probably isn't transgender, he's probably just a dumb kid. So like I said you could be making your kid's life worse with either decision and I honestly don't have an answer for that dilemma. I just hope I never have a transgender kid so I don't have to make that decision.

I'm sorry? I'm sorta new here, honestly. What does that mean?

>What I'm concerned about, however, is that liberals are burrowing into deeper echo chambers and are, on youtube, twitter, and reddit, for example, not just failing to address and acknowledge criticism, but are actually shutting it down and doing everything they can to make it disappear.
>posts this unironically from Sup Forums

>If a person gets to decide what gender they identify as, what is stopping them from deciding what age or colour they identify as? Each of those have observable, scientific classifiers.

Sex is not gender. Gender is how one interacts in society. Transgender people literally have the brain of the sex they 'identify' as.

scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Liberalism=/ modern leftism.

People forget liberalism was invented when conservatism basically meant going back to a monarchy. That's not even remotely in the realm of possibility anymore.

Liberals fucked up by adopting SJW/race dividing/communism bullshit. Most of the left are subversive cunts that should be thrown out of the 1st world countries they occupy. Libertarian is the true redpill

2. Liberals backed Hillary Clinton because she was Team Captain, because their peers and the media told them it was okay, and because she held at least some easily-promotable views that they agreed with. Also, for what it's worth, my friends that got to meet with her in person for a roundtable came away with very positive opinions. There are no perfect people, and liberals voted for Hillary because, while flawed, she gave them the closest thing to what they wanted of the candidates that were available without threatening as much Change as Bernie. Because on the whole Change is Scary.

3. Of the two people I know with lesbian moms, one is a gay man and one is a straight woman. Both are incredibly intelligent and successful. I have a far greater sample size of people with straight parents, and let me tell you, they run the gamut from Rhodes Scholar to 58 and working at Walmart. If this is specifically supposed to be about kids being encouraged to question their gender, yeah, I guess I'm not on board with that, but to suggest that it's endemic to the entire gay community and makes them incapable of parenting...that's pretty shitty. Don't be shitty.

1. I'm most troubled by it because it is premised on something that is untrue, and tries to vilify people who maintain that there is such thing as inherent biology

2. The email thing showed that she mishandled classified documents (a crime), she lied under oath (a crime), and she destroyed subpoenaed materials (a crime). Further, the Clinton Foundation was shown to be used for exactly the thing you describe: quid pro quo, conflicts of interest, or "pay to play" if you will.

3.
>ultra-relgious parents homeschooling their children.

That's a very good analogy, actually. Good point.

I think both sides are locking themselves in echo-chambers. The reason I bring up the liberals is because when I was younger and debating politics, even when I wasn't a liberal, the liberals were always the more rational of the two. They always at least had a fairly consistent line of reasoning and argument. They've lost that in the nine years since I started debating politics online. They've surpassed the right-wing in their ability to ignore valid criticism and shut down opponents without actually making a valid point. It's scary to me that now both sides are digging into these corners.

>1. in theory...

I'm not particularly concerned with behaviours or fashion choices or sexual activity. My concern is how they are claiming something that is self-evidently untrue and not factual, and imposing a tolerance of said falsehood on everyone in polite society. I couldn't care less about a man acting, talking, dressing, and fucking as a woman, but to demand legal protections on the basis that he *is actually a woman* is wrong to me.

As far as what one identifies with race or age, it is totally reasonable to claim not to care about race or age (because neither of those things is particularly good at determining the quality of one's character or actions), but to deny outright that you are a certain age or of a certain race is, to my earlier point, simply false.

Proud liberal Obama Leaf here. You right wing retards are such hilarious pathetic failures.

I love that list. You retards are such failures in life, you literally count failed businesses as success.

LOL

>Trump Marks Toronto corp
>Trump Marks Toronto LLC
>Trump Marks Toronto LP

oh and please reply so I can btfo you with many many more examples from that list you retarded failure conservashit retard loser

I was joking. Brits add the letter "u" unnecessarily to words. You accidentally misspelled that word in a similar manner that brits misspell many of their words with the letter "u". It was just a wisecrack.

Now I'm gonna wait for a pissed-off brit to tell me that we're the ones misspelling their words by leaving the "u" out, and that they did it first for millennia, then we revolted and ruined their language, and blah, blah, blah...

By please reply you mean you won't really wait for anyone to before you spam the thread with 50+ replies like always you autistic fuck?
K

murk loar

Hey liberals, why are you all nothing but walking stereotypes? Why the shit are you all nothing but 1 dimensional may may's? Why is it that i can summarize your entire existence as something as simple as liberals or conservatives? Why can't you all think for yourselves? You creatures are not people, because people have the capacity to think; Sentience is a requirement to being human and you all are clearly not, you all might have the ability to talk, but that's no better then a parrot taught to repeat words. I don't get it, i simply do not get how you all instead of going out of your own way to learn about things and forming your own opinions you all stick your heads in the sand and scream in your hug boxes. Can someone explain to me why you are all like that and use your own thoughts? Even though all i'm going to get is buzzwords and recited lines given to you by your overlords, I simply don't get it.

dont give him any (You)s its the quebec nigger who hates canada and falseflags as a caricature of a liberal leaf to give liberals and leafs a bad image

>Proud liberal Obama Leaf here.
Are Canadian politics so terrible that you live vicariously through ours?

Yes, there's "classical liberalism" and there's modernism. My point isn't the terms. But when I say a liberal or a left-winger today, in 2017, I think we all know who I'm talking about.

>turning them into cute girls...

Except the statistics show that suicide rates among transgender people do not improve post-op. It seems to be uncorrelated with "passing" or being accepted. This suggests to me that it may be a mental disorder. But mental disorders don't make a person not a person anymore. It just means that they can be treated.

I mean, depression is a mental disorder and who doesn't have depression? It doesn't make you a piece of shit. It just means you can take medication and your life will probably improve. Facilitating the fantasies of someone with a mental disorder, I think, just sets them up for a bigger fall later on.

Why do you right wing retards count inactive/failed/bankrupt companies as success stories? The truth is that u right wing retards worship failure.

Answer the question you globalist cock holster.

>Trump Marks Toronto corp
>Trump Marks Toronto LLC
>Trump Marks Toronto LP

No, obamaleaf is an autistic fuck that posts 50+ times in every thread and repeats the same buzzwords/one liners every time.

Apologies. I just prefer and was initially taught that spelling. It's more natural than anything.

lol implying trudeau doesn't trigger the shit out of u right wing retards

As a Canadian, I believe that coloured people should have rights, the city centre is a good place for people to gather, and my favourite sport is hockey.

Seehe is already throwing unfounded accusations around, enjoy the thread filled with obamaleaf autism. 50+ posts of it coming this threads way.

>1.

It's about definitions. Nobody disagrees that sex is biological or based on chromosomes. But gender has to be a social construct, otherwise the male/female sex would manifest itself identically across all cultures, but there are similarities as well as differences. The non-bullshit lexicon relates to gender allows us to have a language to describe these social differences. If you say "japanese men are little pussies" you're not making a statement about their XY's, you're making a statement about their gender, how those XY's are expressed in a particular context.

>The email thing showed that she mishandled classified documents (a crime), she lied under oath (a crime), and she destroyed subpoenaed materials (a crime). Further, the Clinton Foundation was shown to be used for exactly the thing you describe: quid pro quo, conflicts of interest, or "pay to play" if you will.

All you're doing is making an argument (i.e., that its a crime). I could easily argue that the intent didn't exist and that since intent is a required element of the crimes, no crime occurred. And I never really saw any "fire" coming out of the CF's leaked emails, at least not anything I wouldn't expect out of literally every politician on the planet. That's basically the bottom line for me - in the end she was found guilty of being a politician. Everything else was just look at this bitch eating crackers who does she think she is.

>TFW you know these creatures are evil and will continue to spam up every thread like the living robots they are
>TFW these creatures cannot comprehend anything outside of the small areas they were told to learn
>TFW these creatures are sad and pitiful but they will destroy all you love and hold dear all because that is what they are programmed to do
>TFW this is the future of humanity
>MFW

fuck off you aboslute cunt

Again, go back to school.
Being right wing has never meant zero social programs. It's about how it's done. American health care and education industry are just massive businesses. Left-wing governments don't pay for tuitions because universities are fucking public.

>dodges the question

I'm referring to this right wing retard fake news pic You're just butthurt because I annihilate u right wing retards every single day and call u out on your bullshit.

1. sex and gender are different.

2. because we didn't have a choice. like of course it blows that the primary was rigged and shit but no matter how twisted Hillary's past was, she wouldn't have made rape a pre-existing condition. she also wouldn't be a global embarrassment. she also, ya know, would've done something in the office instead of just using adjectives every sentence. next time Trump speaks count the amount of times he says "everyone's talking about it." a good businessman, questionably. a babbling fucking retard? most definitely. that's not who I want my children to view as "the president"

3. yes, 100% that's wrong. it's the child's choice, in the same way their parents were able to choose their sexual preference. a parent forcing their child to be gay is 100% as terrible as a gay child being forced to be straight.

I'm something of an independent or whatever they call 'em nowadays, but I've noticed in my short lifetime that what people used to complain about conservatives all around me now apply 100% to the left. I've never believed in the pendulum idea so strongly until the past few years. It's like the whole world was inverted in the past 20 years.

That's what scares me most - is that there are people much older than me who don't seem to recognize this pattern, and are happy to just swing back the other way without ever wondering if there's a bigger structure at play here.

He's a garbage business man

>Even though all i'm going to get is buzzwords and recited lines
That's all you've provided, too.
Smart people think for themselves. Anyone who can only identify as part of a political ideology, and attacks the opposite as heresy is not a smart person.

USA has no "Left". Stop polarizing people beyond how bad it is already.

>being THIS autistic
>STILL throwing unfounded accusations that I am right wing
Thanks for confirming my earlier point you utterly stupid fucking cunt. Enjoy spamming the thread with the same one liners and buzzwords as always, I guess it's better than you tying your eventual noose.

I'm not right wing in the least, but I understand.

Fine, use whatever word you want, but you know who I'm talking about.

How is it the same one liner when I'm specifically referring to this pic? You really are retarded.

also for number one, this is why i dont give a fuck when people say there are two genders.

there are two sexes. that is what they mean, they're too rock-brained to know the difference. Anyone can run around yelling "im a woman!" and i don't really care. all public resources, though, should be based on sex, not gender.

in the end though i don't really understand what makes rednecks so upset about someone identifying as quasitechnicintrospectiveelonihlezentovic.

to me kinda seems like suppressed homosexuality that they're mad they never got to express. kinda like jealousy. yes i do believe this and have the "homophobes are more likely to be gay than the average person" studies to back it up.

>Pose question
>Thats what you are but what am I?
user plz.

>1.

It's important to have a vocabulary to describe what is happening, yes, but the movement isn't stopping there. It is demanding that we ignore the biological sex of the individual while claiming it's just an expression of "gender." Furthermore, this is a major example of something I find very troubling about society at large, not just liberals or conservatives: people are learning and being rewarded (with attention) for identifying themselves based on things they cannot change. They're getting pride and satisfaction from things outside of their control, and the vanity that it entails is coming to be the central part of our existence. I'm frequently disturbed by how many pictures my friends take of themselves and of each other, as if the only way to be a valuable individual is to be seen online, and to have that image positively acknowledged. I think this is harmful to humanity at large.

>making an argument that it's a crime

The mishandling of classified documents is a crime without intent. Criminal negligence, by definition, does not require intent, because if there was intent, it moves from negligent to malicious.

Destroying documents after they've been subpoenaed is a crime in itself. Intent is implied if the destruction occurs after the subpoena. Trey Gowdy discusses this. The term is spoliation.

>she was guilty of being a politician

That you see it that way is just a symptom of how normalized political corruption is in the US. That a politician can set up a non-profit organization, collect "contributions" from foreign diplomats, heads of state, whatever, who then are given tangible, material, and influential appointments as an obvious result, is sad. That is the definition of political corruption. What's even more sad? The FBI is so entangled in the political landscape of America, that they withheld their prosecution for crimes like that because they felt it would be undue interference in the political process. How fucked is that?

If the universities are public, then the government IS paying for them through tax dollars and grants and whatnot. Yes, they are a business with costs, incomes, and profits. But if they're publicly funded, they're publicly funded.

You presented angry bait. I tossed it back. You obviously aren't open to any ideas; you just want to come here and furiously swear at and insult those with opinions that differ from yours, and I'm not arguing that with you. I did however add my opinion of you in the kindest terms you deserved while refusing to banter ideologies with someone who is only here for a fight. Thanks, no thanks.

That's the Canadian take on it. That's the McGill/UofT model of being public/private. Doesn't have to be that way.

Also that's beside the point. Things are not black n white. Of course right-leaning countries may have left-leaning policies.

I was correcting the erroneous ideas that Americans have of the Left/Right dicotomy. You can tell how it impacts their understanding of foreign politics. Take the French election as best example.

1. If a person gets to decide what gender they identify as, what is stopping them from deciding what age or colour they identify as? Each of those have observable, scientific classifiers.

why does it matter to you? a lot of rightwingers believe there's a fairy that lives in the sky.

they may be willing to bring on the end of the world.
doesn't that bother you?

...trannies?

How will trannies bring on the end of the world?

>a lot of rightwingers believe in a fairy

Yes, and we see what happens when a religious person's false beliefs are imposed on others. We have what is called theocracy.

If the US did not have a legal basis for separation of church and state, the right-wing's belief in god would be seriously troublesome. But America, God bless her, still has the first amendment.

It matters to me because by tolerating and supporting their belief, we are giving weight to something which is blatantly untrue. We are, in a way, facilitating their delusions. Truth is something were pursuing and maintaining.

no, religious fanatics

I am a liberal, though increasingly disillusioned with the Democrat Party. None of the opinions in your post seem all that conservative to me

1. My understanding is that gender dysphoria actually has a physical basis in the brain, whereas the others don't. Feel free to show me evidence to the contrary.

2. Mostly agree and I didn't vote for Clinton.

3. Yes, it is troubling, especially considering the relatively high number of children who simply stop believing they're transgender. It's a little strange how cavalier some lefties are about it. Transition is more complete and works better if started before puberty, but it's still kind of a grey area in my opinion.

Ah! Fortunately, they can't. They can want to all they want, but they can't do it.

3. I'm under the impression that if your identity requires you to permanently modify your biology and your body, then you are probably suffering from delusions.

as an independent (though I lean left on a lot of issues), I can tell you both the right and left have been polarizing a lot lately, since the increase of use of the internet and even worse with social media becoming a thing.

This place is largely a conservative echo chamber. It used to be a libertarian echo chamber for awhile it was an alt right echo chamber and now with some people still being loyal to Trump regardless of his policies, it has become a neocon echo chamber.

Anyway...

1. I don't believe in gender theory, You are whatever sex your chromosomes say you are. Now for gender ROLES and social aspects of gender like breadwinner vs homemaker, wearing skirts/pants, wearing makeup. That's all fine. I'm okay with stay at home dads taking care of the kids while the wife works, if she makes more money. I'm fine with guys who for some fucking reason, want to put on makeup and wear skirts. Okay. Transvestites.. I don't care about.

But for people who actually believe they are biologically a woman despite being a man, and feel they have to fuck with their hormones and go under the knife? That's just stupid.

2. The email shit was overblown, the opposing party is always looking for a scandal to discredit the other candidate rather than simply having a better platform and better leadership persona. It's just like the Russia shit against Trump, it's just like the sex Scandals with Bill Clinton, it's just like the Birth Certificate shit with Obama.

Instead of trying to just be the better candidate, they all try to eliminate the other candidate from being eligible to run. It's stupid. That said, Hillary really is a crooked candidate. Bernie was better.

3. Parents shouldn't be putting their kids on hormones, no, that's extremely damaging, permanently, I think it can make them sterile even if they decide later to reverse course. If someone really wants to decide that they want to be stupid and undergo that therapy, wait till adulthood.

there's not another effective way to treat it besides transitioning (which even then isn't all that effective) so I don't see any harm in letting them be delusional. So long as it's not wasting catastrophic anounts of tax money I don't care about it at all. I wouldn't care at all about trans-racials or whatever either but as far as I know, there's no evidence suggesting it's a real psychological condition

>2. the email shit was overblown

I have to disagree. The evidence shows quite plainly that the smallest crime she committed was gross negligence (which is actually criminal when you're in the state department). The evidence seems quite plain, also, that she knew her private server violated government protocol and she maintained it anyway. It is a known fact she and her lawyers destroyed emails after the congressional subpoena, and it is impossible to believe that she didn't know many of those emails were classified.

The biggest crime, and the one that would be the most obvious to prosecute and convict on, was lying to congress and to the FBI under oath. This happened. It's a matter of record. All politics aside, she lied to congress and she lied to the FBI.

>transitioning is the treatment

I've actually never looked at it that way, thank-you. I looked at it the opposite, actually, as a way of caving in to the condition.

OP, discussion is important, thanks for trying to facilitate it. Lemme answer your questions

1. Common sense stops them. Here's thing thing, transgenders were using whatever the fuck facilities they wanted before this shit blew up. I believe you should be able to live as the binary gender you identify as, so long as you pass. that's the thing: these transtrenders aren''t even trying to pass and noone wants to take a shit next to Frankenstein's Monster. My point is its not immpossible to pass as the other gender, it is hard to pass as another race/color. If it becomes an issue, outlaw it

2. I didn't. I typically go left, but this election we had the worst candidate fucking ever. Bernie isn't a bad guy but his policies were batshit crazy. Clinton's a racist, virtue-signalling piece of shit who rigged the DNC and did much more. People who brush this aside are in denial of reality, left or right. I would have loved to see either John Kasich, Gary Johnson, or even John McCain get to the generals, they'd have mmy vote. I won't even say anything about Trump, you've heard everything the left has to say about him

3. Don't try to push any lifestyle on your children. Yes, parent should give their kids good life lessons and habits but don't tell your kids how to live their life. This isn't even specific to LGBT ''lifestyles' being forced on kids. The reality is that over 95% of the population is cis-het, so assume your kid is cis-het but tell them its okay if they aren't.