Libertarians answer this

Austin Miller
Austin Miller

What is the libertarian answer to automation?

You can't simply kill people off either, since those people are your customers.

Automation + less people in the workforce = less velocity of money = stagnant economy.

All urls found in this thread:

mises.org/blog/when-low-wage-workers-are-better-robots

Dominic Jackson
Dominic Jackson

8/10

Isaiah Scott
Isaiah Scott

democratic socialists have already got an answer btw, its UBI. Universal basic income, this will keep velocity of money in the economy.

Jason Ramirez
Jason Ramirez

deflation
not even a libertarian

Dylan Morales
Dylan Morales

this isnt bait, dont dismiss it as such simply because you cannot find an answer to it.

Gavin Phillips
Gavin Phillips

deflation
to what ends.
there is a certain point, especially with fiat money that it becomes unsustainable

Brody Sanders
Brody Sanders

to what ends.
until the price of labor come down enough
becomes unsustainable
Why is it unsustainable?

Zachary Stewart
Zachary Stewart

until the price of labor come down enough
the future lacks labor in all regards. even surgeons will be obsolete.
Why is it unsustainable?
due to the first point i made, its fiat money, it relies on belief alone. there is no labor backing it, no commodities such as gold. theoretically, in a libertarian society, there would be just 1 person left with all the wealth + robots.

is that a win for humanity? why should the average joe vote for that? to be euthanized?

Ian Bell
Ian Bell

*never mind the anarcho capitalists, that would literally be somalia

The only sensible solution is social democracy or technocracy.

Blake Edwards
Blake Edwards

no replies? seems i've won this argument. libertarians btfo

Ryan Wright
Ryan Wright

Jobs don't disappear, they just change.

Nicholas Mitchell
Nicholas Mitchell

"Why should freight be carried from New York to Chicago by railroads when we could employ enormously more men, for example, to carry it all on their backs."

We've been automating for years now, it increases production, creates jobs in other areas, and grows the economy.

Aiden Peterson
Aiden Peterson

change to what? the only jobs available would be electrical and electronic engineers.

Angel Hughes
Angel Hughes

The thing about libertarianism is that we don't pretend to have all the answers, but we KNOW, that someone have; about automation, it's highly unlikely that laubor become a past need, machines have a limit, it's not because we didn't reach it that it doesn't have, but let's say it have, a UBI seems good to me, you don't need a gov to do that

Jackson Clark
Jackson Clark

there is a limit. and i agree, if we did it slowly, it could work, but companies (in a libertarian society) wouldn't do that, since we are at the edge. we will automate nearly all jobs after we have a decent AI.

hundreds of millions of jobs disappearing at once, cannot be good for the economy.

Robots dont spend money either, only their owners will, and thus, the velocity of money decreases dramatically.

Jackson Cooper
Jackson Cooper

Not be a bitch
Buy all the robots
Build shit

.... seems like jobs and more output are in the future, OP. Possibly better global working conditions to boot. They said the same about the industrial and computer revolution. Its called evolving with the market, not regulating it.

Connor King
Connor King

ask someone to hypothesize the emergence of social media manager jobs before the creation of the internet or even before facebook/twitter. So what if everyone is engineers, the birthrate will decrease accordingly, natrually, and smoothly in capitalist countries, and socialist countries will shoot themselves in a foot trying UBI and add another chapter to the Gulag
Archipelgo

Jason James
Jason James

The libertarian answer to automation is that it's none of the government's business whether an industry automates or not. The free market will sort it out.

Carson Rodriguez
Carson Rodriguez

First of all, I doubt you know what velocity of money means.
Second, automation had been going on before your grandparents were even born. In 1870, almost 50 percent of the US population was employed in agriculture. As of 2008, less than 2 percent of the population is directly employed in agriculture. You don't see people complaining about that, because the modern American agriculture sector is a 100 times more productive.
Third, someone has to make the machines you know, even if you had machine making machines, you would still need a human to start the chain of production. You would still need a human who studies surgery to make a robot surgeon, there's no getting around that.
Some people lose their jobs with automation but others don't and society adapts in the end. Don't you think horse breeders bitched to high heaven when automobiles were fist introduced? Do you see people complaining about the loss of jobs in the horse breeding industry today?

Also 7/10 bait but I just felt like making a point.

Joseph White
Joseph White

a UBI seems good to me, you don't need a gov to do that

you need someone to collect taxes from the corporations + workers, build roads, hospitals, schools, and then to redistribute the money as the UBI, that basically is government,

Nicholas Brown
Nicholas Brown

Cientists, artists, psycologists, electronic engeneers, business men, besides, if we reach a point of complete automation, scarcity would probably be a past problem, no scarcity means no price, no price means no need for money.

Carter Cruz
Carter Cruz

Automation -> less people with money -> no product being bought -> no money for rich people

It wouldn't be in the best interest of manufacturers to increase automation, its an unsustainable business model. Only commies want automation

Jack Gonzalez
Jack Gonzalez

Taxes? How would taxes be a thing with no one having an income (besides de UBI)?

Julian Harris
Julian Harris

If everything is automated people will earn their living buy purchasing equity in automated businesses and also in information generation.

If you can't do those things, pls starve.

Sebastian King
Sebastian King

Automation also = more purchasing power. The less money spent in one part of the economy will go into another part of the economy and make jobs there.

Cameron Perez
Cameron Perez

Basically this. I'm exited to see socialist countries commit seppuku trying to adapt while America prospers as always

Grayson Hernandez
Grayson Hernandez

not this queer thread. automation = computerization. oooh scary. we've been automating jobs for 4 decades. big whoop. technology creates more jobs than it destroys. stop with this gay topic. its as if we will have conquered every single human "need" in 20 years. not likely......

Dylan Watson
Dylan Watson

This is incorrect because it is taking money from a necessarily more productive part of the economy and moving it to a less productive one. People don't just take profit and sit on a pile of cash. That money will be reinvested in more capital and the resources needed to utilize it. Even if it sits in a bank the bank will lend it out to further business ventures. UBI only works in a post scarcity paradise, which means we are no longer discussing reality

Lucas Murphy
Lucas Murphy

So it would automatically turn into utopian communism?

Gavin Roberts
Gavin Roberts

Yes since free time will not get people to think up new things.

6,795/10 bread

Luke Cruz
Luke Cruz

Have a read of chapter 7 of Economics in One Lesson, it explains better than I can here. I will try to paraphrase an example:
clothing manufacturer buys machine to make coats for half the labour, and drops half his labour force
machine itself requires labour to make and install
after the machine has paid for itself the clothing manufacturer is making more profits (else he would not have bought it)
he may use his profits in one or more of 3 ways:
1) expands operation and buys more machines
2) invests in another industry
3) increases his own consumption
whichever option(s) he chooses, he has increased employment

Lucas Murphy
Lucas Murphy

Its called evolving with the market,
evolving with the market means a culling of the average worker essentially. well, unless you want Neet revolutions popping up.

So what if everyone is engineers, the birthrate will decrease accordingly, natrually, and smoothly in capitalist countries

except we both know that isnt true, for one, not everyone will be engineers, and especially at the levels of the future, the average IQ of those people would have be extremely high. (and even then, one day they'll be automated by an AI they create).

secondly, it wont smoothly dcerease, it would be a mass starvation/genocide. whos to say it wont spawn the largest terrorist groups in human history.

socialist countries will shoot themselves in a foot trying UBI

UBI is the only sensible solution, both to pacify the population + keep the economy running, we need consumers to consume, if there's no consumer, who are the robots going to be making products for? does a robot need an iphone? or a watch? or a packet of crisps?

Henry Gray
Henry Gray

no price means no need for money.
no need for human beings

Lincoln Johnson
Lincoln Johnson

taxes on the corporations, they'll still be making an income to start off.

Joseph James
Joseph James

thinking that companies care more about long term sustainability(+100 yrs) than short term capital. Its a never ending race. Give me an example of a communist country were automation is a main priority of the government.

Wyatt Hernandez
Wyatt Hernandez

People don't just take profit and sit on a pile of cash
except thats exactly what happens. in a monopoly do you think the owner will see a need to expand?

(libertarian govt btw) (govt. cannot break up monopolies)

Jack Harris
Jack Harris

UBI could also be used to violate the NAP as a government could (and inevitably would) leverage UBI to coerce it's citizens (through threat of starvation)

What's the citizen? you were caught speaking badly about the government on a chinese cartoon forum? No UBI for you.

If a government can give something to it's citizens, sure as shit it can take it away.

Gotta have faith that people will find other avenues to sustain themselves with some creativity.

Kayden Collins
Kayden Collins

UBI is the only sensible solution
UBI is sensible
UBI

get out

Juan Garcia
Juan Garcia

Well said.

Also, obligatory fuck socialism.

Gabriel James
Gabriel James

Monopolies are the outcome of government intervention, not the outcome of direct competition. Basically the government creates a barrier to new competition through regulation and law that heavily favors the existing enterprise and stifles newcomers from coming in at a lower, competitive price point.

Jason Walker
Jason Walker

Again I didn't say that everyone would be engineers, I said that we won't be able to predict the what the emerging market centered around automation will look and by extension we can't anticipate the new jobs. Long term, birth rates will adjust for less jobs which is a big assumption that there will be less jobs.

Already we are seeing a shift towards artisan production of goods that can be acquired from the mass market. Shitty Heineken or artisan craft beer, target t shirt or naturally sourced sun bleached alpaca cotton.

Michael Allen
Michael Allen

negative income tax, look it up.

Bentley Campbell
Bentley Campbell

Crafticilture is the new thing

Luis Phillips
Luis Phillips

that would work for a year or two. then due to inflation the UBI would have to keep increasing exponentially. its the epitome of democratic policy, works great for a little while and gets you elected. fucks over everyone in the future.

Cameron Fisher
Cameron Fisher

In economics, a negative income tax (NIT) is a progressive income tax system where people earning below a certain amount receive supplemental pay from the government instead of paying taxes to the government.

Government

Connor Wilson
Connor Wilson

mises.org/blog/when-low-wage-workers-are-better-robots

Landon Johnson
Landon Johnson

exactly, why do you think that the pharma industry is the way it is. largely due to patents.

Lincoln Reyes
Lincoln Reyes

this isnt true in the case of mass automation that we are facing, something like 40 percent of jobs in Scotland are at high risk, 30% of jobs in america are at a high risk of automation, its basically between 30-50% everywhere else in the world as well, but these types of technologies are growing at a logarithmic rate, its being developed and rolled out faster than new jobs can be created and its spreading outside of just factory jobs and transport jobs, it encompasses almost all jobs because of the leaps and bounds being made in artificial intelligence, these highly versatile deep learning algorithms can pick up almost any human skill with in a matter of hours, and be better than any human in less than a day, and as they broaden their skillset, they can transfer knowledge and techniques learned from one skill to a completely new skill that they are picking up. This isnt luddite 2.0, its much worse than that.

Something like 80% of jobs we have today are going to be automated within less than 10 years.

In response to OP

As a libertarian, my answer to this is UBI. I think it will be a necessity, UBI would be easy to implement, and you wouldnt need to tax the general population to get it, you'd only need to install a small automation tax, this will stop the economy from stagnating, and give people more to create the jobs necessary to offset the market shock of mass automation.

In this case its more about pragmatism than simply principle, as a libertarian I think you need to have as little taxes as you are capable of having, this is one tax that I do support because its the only practical solution to a daunting issue.

Jordan Morris
Jordan Morris

Automation is a terrible thing for any economic system that hasn't solved resource scarcity issues.

This will naturally kill off several sectors of the population, education will become so fiercely competitive in a free market society to even get paid a shit wage and in a socialist society basically worthless because it isn't worth the effort.

We need to hold off any further automation till things like food and energy have long term solutions.

Aaron Morris
Aaron Morris

h-hey guys I'm totally a libertarian like you and UBI would be great. Did I mention that I'm a libertarian, your guard should be down now so I can push marxist shit on you

Ryan Nelson
Ryan Nelson

Yeah, I subscribe to Friedman's economic theories, we don't all defend the abolition of the state you know? We just want small government, and bareable social order. Friedman isn't an Ancap. Also yeah, if there's state, you're always going to have to pay some taxes. We just defend that the tax should be set at the minimum a governemt need to do its most basic things. Also, with negative income tax, there would be no need for social security or any other type of gibs and the IRS system would be streamlined, saving time and money. Any questions?

Hudson Cox
Hudson Cox

stfu about ubi, that's free gibs. A negative income tax would be a better policy, you'd only recieve money if at least you had started working and had gotten laid off or something.

Julian Edwards
Julian Edwards

Lol look at this retard

Carson Rogers
Carson Rogers

This

Juan Cooper
Juan Cooper

WHAT'S INFLATION?

Isaac Johnson
Isaac Johnson

*Deregulate!* *Deregulate!*

Brayden Martin
Brayden Martin

Even the "poor" already have a higher standard of living in this country than 99.99999% of humanity has enjoyed over the course of human history. They'll still get their goodies at walmart.

Lucas Robinson
Lucas Robinson

Syria producing the beady redpills as always.

Jacob Williams
Jacob Williams

In the year 1820, 90% of Americans were farmers or had agriculture related jobs. Nowadays only about 12% of Americans have agriculture related jobs.

1800's /pol: > in 100 years , 90% of agriculture jobs will be replaced by machines! How will poor people find jobs?

Samuel Nelson
Samuel Nelson

proxies producing the redpills as always.

its to be expected for someone autistic enough to pay for a flag to LARP on a Botswanan bot fly appreciation forum

Parker Reed
Parker Reed

Someone has to make, advertise and repair the robots.

Cameron Jones
Cameron Jones

A negative income tax works as well. Your suggestion that you only receive money if you're laid off doesnt solve the problem of millennials and gen z kids who will not be able to find a job to begin with though.

UBI or a negative income tax wouldnt be that expensive to implement in a post-automation scenario, automation ensures cheap domestic labor, and a dramatic drop in prices because of increased productivity per dollar, which means that you dont need that much money live off of.

I really am a libertarian, but in this case i am looking for a pragmatic solution rather than a solution based purely on the principles of the free market. I think in the long term we will see more technology jobs, the problem is almost all low skill jobs will be wiped out which means people arent going to be able to earn the money they need to go to college to learn the skills they need to break into the emerging automation related jobs market. Certain high skill jobs will be wiped out as well as the low skill jobs, which is going to mean a lot of people will need to retrain, and theres no guarantee that what they train in isnt going to also get automated.

So we're faced with a weird issue, with no one perfect solution. My worry is that if too many people lose their jobs and there really arent enough jobs to go around, then spending will stagnant, which will cause the market to get all fucked because no one will be able to spend money, which will drive some businesses under, and will force other businesses to expand automation to ensure that their prices remain low enough to still be bought by the few people who will have kept their jobs.

Luke Price
Luke Price

كس أمك

Samuel Rivera
Samuel Rivera

The free market will fix it

Ayden Martin
Ayden Martin

more robots

Juan Barnes
Juan Barnes

Comparing automation to the industrial revolution is just stupid. In the industrial revolution, machines started replacing human muscles. It was obvious that human minds would be still needed. But with automation and AI, you're replacing both human thinking and muscles with robots. ~99% of jobs can be automatized partly or completely within the next 50 years. What do humans have to offer at the job? 8 hour work days, bathroom breaks, lunch times, inefficiency, whining, socialising, vacations... a robot will do 24/7 for far cheaper. Most people are not smart to become engineers or the like.

''Oh there will be jobs'' is wishful thinking. No, new jobs (for humans) will not pop up if a robot can do it cheaper. The future is absolutely dreadful. I can imagine a worldwide existential crisis when people don't have work to occupy their minds with.

Tyler Allen
Tyler Allen

hate to break it to ya buddy but just because you like snakes and yellow flags, your're not libertarian.

i am looking for a pragmatic solution rather than a solution based purely on the principles of the free market

see definition of libertarian

Carson Long
Carson Long

UBI more like UTI amirite

Anything that can be automated is a soulcrushing experience anyway. Let the robots drive down the cost of necessary goods. Demand will increase for artisinal goods, art, entertainment, service industry workers, and other luxuries.

The jobs won't all be focused on robot engineering, robot programming, and robot maintenance. With an increase in free time and disposable income from cheaper goods, we'll demand more frivolous things to fill our time.

Samuel Lewis
Samuel Lewis

when you're libertarian and you get to the libertarian thread 68 replies in
eh it doesn't even matter what i say anymore

Juan Bell
Juan Bell

what do libertarians have to do with automation? EVERYONE is automating, even commies.

Noah Ross
Noah Ross

there are still LARPERS

Connor Lopez
Connor Lopez

:3 cute. CUTE!

Zachary Richardson
Zachary Richardson

Let people do what they want

Automation doesn't stagnate the economy. The types of jobs that are available just shift around.

Jackson Cook
Jackson Cook

Remind me, Whats the economy type that accounts for human evil?

John Gomez
John Gomez

whew

Jackson Ortiz
Jackson Ortiz

An interesting thought. As the higher in demand jobs get replaced with ai/mechanization, People will in fact have to work less and less to meet their basic needs to survive as we have seen in the last century.(this will kill the need for UBI, yet many govt will probably see it as a good ROI anyway) The jobs that were once in high demand based on physical reality (food production) (infrastructure) (Manufacturing) will turn into work increasingly in the conceptual/emotional/mental realm. We see since the 80's, capital pooling into tech companies and entertainment, creating income inequality and trump as a rejection of the future. The amount of humans needed to physically make things will dwindle, so we become a mental/emotional economy. Once AI takes that over, It will be very interesting time to be alive indeed. I am no libertarian but to play advocate i think economies will continue to shift into new sectors untill we are totally taken care of eventually spurring the education of how deeply vast the universe is and how insignificant we are within it. We will explore the cosmos forever looking for lifeforms to share existensial loneliness or become subject to depression, and stop reproducing and eventually phase ourselves out if AI does not do it first. Look at birthrates of developed vs developing countries. I have been to cuba recently, it is a very poor island but they do have a quasi-universal basic income in place, capitalism seeps in everywhere yes, but you can tell how their economy has had to decentralize to art/education/healthcare in order for their economy to survive, hell, they export their doctors to nearby nations to trade for oil. Those who do not find alternative employment dont reproduce,

TLDR: Productive Capitalism naturally will create ultimate socialism, which will eventually kill us off unless we contine to find a truth to pivot to.

Owen Hall
Owen Hall

On 99% of issues I would want the free market to deal with it, on this one particular issue I dont see how it could deal with it. I think entrepreneurship will offset some of the job loss, however I dont see how gen z and millennials are going to be able to make the money to start their own businesses.

I know exactly what libertarianism is, I know exactly what the principals are, I just fail to see how in this particular case it will be able to cope with the shock of widespread, rapid, automation.

On one hand goods will fall dramatically in price, however on the other hand, people are going to be able to spend their money because they arent going to have the ability to earn.

I think the free markets ability to create the jobs necessary to keep people employed will be lacking given the speed at which the automation is going to be rolled out.

How do you propose this issue is dealt with given the complexity of it? Do you have a solution that will work that completely aligns with the principles of libertarianism? because I have looked for one and I dont have a solid one.

Basically this but this is going to happen a lot faster than 50 years. Automatization and Artificial intelligence are going to explode in the next 5 years, if you chart their progression on a timeline, you will realize that it is a logarithmic growth pattern. Ray kurzweil and a few other people talking a lot about this and its something important to consider when making predictions about future technology.

Matthew Howard
Matthew Howard

Basically this but this is going to happen a lot faster than 50 years.
I know, rounded it up a few years just so nobody could deny that it would at least eventually happend.

It seems like many libertarians are dogmatic on their belief that there absolutely will become new jobs (for humans, not robots). I don't wonder why, because an automated/AI society absolutely ruins the idea that there is a job for everyone and free markets will fix everything. The average worker is fucking stupid, and in the late-automatisation time, only few efficient inventors, engineers, bankers and entrepreneurs are needed to run practically everything. Human workers will be obsolete.

Isaac Ramirez
Isaac Ramirez

(You)
There has never been need for human beings

Mason Hall
Mason Hall

who is that cutie

Jason Young
Jason Young

Who's this qt3,14

Asher Roberts
Asher Roberts

lol a lot of studies show that automation is good for costumers ( prices go down) employers (theres no need to ppl do shitty jobs so they need to more specialization jobs for more money)

James Collins
James Collins

Same thing that happened when autmation took over textile and farm industries; find something the machines can't do. Once we get to 100% automation, then no one needs to do fuck all anymore.

Julian Cruz
Julian Cruz

im drunk kek, but u know what i mean

Daniel Gomez
Daniel Gomez

Technically you are right, but you forget that also technically, human beings need human beings.

Jordan Taylor
Jordan Taylor

Government in control of automation will always maintain control of automation for the elite.
Ergo, stop fucking sliding you shill.

Adam Cooper
Adam Cooper

I agree with what you are saying. Im a libertarian and on most issues I believe that it should be left up to the free markets to adjust. This is the only issue I dont think the free market will be able to cope with, at least in the short term, I think other libertarians really need to sit down and think about this from a pragmatic standpoint rather than a purely ideological standpoint.

Banking is going to be automated, its been in the process of being automated since the 80s.The other things you listed will likely be okay, I think we need to put emphasis on entrepreneurship as a society, I think it is a good idea for people to try and run their own businesses, that will be insanely important in helping with the job loss caused by automation, however there are still going to be a LOT of people with no potential to earn their own money, I think if we live it up to the free market we're going to see people starve, and see them become aggravated, and thats how revolutions start, and the last thing we want is some fucking revolution and some commies taking over.

Automation has the potential to spark huge conflicts that stem from a fear that people wont be able to take care of themselves, and that no one else will be able to take care of them. Thats how you end up with communism or some shit.

Jackson Scott
Jackson Scott

Automation is good, it will make bigger profit margins for business owners. I fail to understand your question.

Julian Howard
Julian Howard

Humans are not horses.

Adam Evans
Adam Evans

To AI, we might as well be.

Evan Williams
Evan Williams

This is general true only if the market can continue to create new jobs for people, which is only possible when automation happens slowely, which its not, its happening faster and faster.
Let me give you can example of whats happening in one industry, once self driving cars and trucks are wide spread, in some towns in america, something like 30-40% of jobs are transport jobs, these towns economies are built on the trucking and transport industry, when those jobs dry up and the truckers leave, the businesses there are going to have to close up shop and head to the cities, we're going to see massive amounts of immigration from rural communities, it'll be like the dust bowl 2.0

That one industry disappearing is going to have huge ramifications. This is going to happen under 3 years.

In the following years we're going to see even more industries seeing massive amounts of automation, which is going to shock the economy. Its going to happen so fast that the free market will not have enough time to create jobs to replace the jobs being lost. There will be an employment crisis.

Ethan Wright
Ethan Wright

It doesnt mean bigger profit margins because the economy will stagnant, jobs will be lost at an increasingly rapid rate, too fast for the free market to create new jobs to replace the lost jobs, which means that people arent going to be spending, which is bad for businesses and the economy as a whole.

Jace Flores
Jace Flores

Late 19th century/early 20th century automation is literally completely different from modern automation. Early automation essentially took skilled labor (tailoring for one), and equalized the skill portion so that anybody could do it. In effect, you have skilled labor radically replaced by assisted unskilled labor. Any joe can (help) make a car, any joe can cross Rockies, any joe can make a prepackaged dinner etc. Today we are seeing the reverse with unskilled labor being completely replaced by machine supervised by skilled labor. Here we are trading unskilled labor for skilled labor. Completely different, since the human capital requirement is now increasing rather than decreasing. You need to get smarter to have a job in the future economy, anything repetitive that doesn't require flexibility or a degree of creativity can be predictably automated out. You're being intellectually dishonest trying to compare a horse vs car with truck driver vs self-driving AI here

Jaxson Hall
Jaxson Hall

it's different this time because I want my communist fantasy bullshit instead
Fuck off

Christian Jackson
Christian Jackson

this

I hate seeing people treating modern automation like luddite 2.0 and brushing it off as nothing. Its intellectually dishonest, and willful ignorance. Its dangerous.

Nicholas Brooks
Nicholas Brooks

What the fuck does anything i just said have to do with communism?

Joseph Garcia
Joseph Garcia

Automation + less people in the workforce = less velocity of money = stagnant economy.
If you have robots producing goods for you and maintaining themselves, you don't need to participate in the economy all that much. The economy will scale itself back as it becomes less useful. The problem solves itself.

Joshua White
Joshua White

people think that there won't be jobs in the future due to automation
despite the fact that jobs are already popping up to replace those being displaced
you guys can lose your shit over this all you want but the economy will be fine

Sebastian Sanchez
Sebastian Sanchez

I don't have to wait for you to start promoting your marxist nonsense. It's pretty fucking obvious what you want.

Sebastian King
Sebastian King

If you need the same number of employees before and after automation, why automate? Also, shouldn't the goal be less work? If automation lets people work 2 hours a day and get the same results they do now, that's what they should do. Not make up a job from thin air so they can keep working all day.

Kevin Sanchez
Kevin Sanchez

Your argument is flawed. It DOES increase profit margins. Less cost = bigger profits.

Luddites used to destroy machinery in the early 1800s because machines eliminated their jobs, but the economy still became stronger afterwards. Automation will end jobs, but new jobs will be created. It's how the free market works.

Innovation always eliminates jobs, but is ultimately better for the consumer because he has access to better/cheaper goods and services.

Work It Harder, Make It Better, Do It Faster, Makes Us stronger

Brayden Nelson
Brayden Nelson

people buy robots
robots work for them
people get paid for robot work

Nicholas Myers
Nicholas Myers

If you need the same number of employees before and after automation, why automate?
it's to get rid of tedious tasks that people don't want to do and free up time to do other things
Also, shouldn't the goal be less work?
less work on tedious tasks yes, we will still find work to displace the work we are no longer doing though, as has happened all throughout history since the industrial revolution
Not make up a job from thin air so they can keep working all day
t. NEET who didn't take high school economics

Mason Scott
Mason Scott

but new jobs will be created
Why is this necessary? Do human needs expand over time? Should they?

Robert Flores
Robert Flores

of course, exactly the same like it was in 1820's england but after while market will adapt to this, dont worry

Adrian Gomez
Adrian Gomez

This. If capitalism is compatible with slavery, it's compatible with high-tech automation. It's essentially the same thing, minus the niggers.

Noah Walker
Noah Walker

meaningless esoteric questions

You do not choose what people do, the individual does, commie.

Kayden Howard
Kayden Howard

we still need people to think of new Ideas plus were going to have computers that can boost our brainpower and gene therapy to change our DNA

Kevin Hernandez
Kevin Hernandez

Luddites used to destroy machinery in the early 1800s because machines eliminated their jobs, but the economy still became stronger afterwards. Automation will end jobs, but new jobs will be created.

This logic only makes sense when the machine that is replacing jobs is limited, and there are many jobs it cannot do.

My question is what happens when we have proper AI that can do practically every job that a human can? That position seems untenable.

Jordan Cruz
Jordan Cruz

people get paid for robot work
robots revolt against "bad people"
robots kill ppl
this is the end, my only friend

Nathaniel Ward
Nathaniel Ward

LUMP OF LABOR FALLACY

Elijah Barnes
Elijah Barnes

I don't have an economic ideology, I'm just looking at this from a perspective of efficiency. I'm not a commie.

You do not choose what people do, the individual does
The individual doesn't choose either, t b h.

Grayson Wilson
Grayson Wilson

Luddites get thrown out of helicopters

Julian Harris
Julian Harris

LUMP OF LABOR FALLACY
If I call it a fallacy, I win!

Lincoln Jones
Lincoln Jones

the individual doesn't choose
Oh, ok, it's just magic then, the magical void of nothingness chooses for you. Alright.
How about since i'm an individual I choose to shoot you in the head since you believe you're not.
Perfectly moral.
let's all just have all the collectivists live in their own fantasy bubble where feelings and the ether decide what happens.
Fucking spacetacular dude.

Alexander Hall
Alexander Hall

people move back out to the land and out of commie slave zones called "cities".

hello?

Lucas Bennett
Lucas Bennett

Choice is irrelevant and living creatures are mechanistic. Stay mad though.

Owen Sullivan
Owen Sullivan

You can't simply kill people off either, since those people are your costumers.
False. With automation, the robot owners could use their robots to produce everything they need to survive, and trade with other robot owners. They could easily kill off the rest of the population.

Ethan Wood
Ethan Wood

Just make more things. Dwarf fortress has shown me that a successful economy is one that just drinks heavily and makes tons of needless crap to export.

John Williams
John Williams

it pretty much sums up the OP though desu

Lincoln Williams
Lincoln Williams

Consciousness is irreducible to mechanistic reality.

Either you haven't thought much about how you can possibly experience your own thoughts, or you're a philosophical zombie.

Logan Gonzalez
Logan Gonzalez

Except its not at all

See this guys reply

Jacob Gonzalez
Jacob Gonzalez

That doesn't mean it's correct. Sure, you can inflate the number of jobs arbitrarily with make-work, but that is in no way desirable. An economy full of hole-diggers and hole-fillers is a forced labor camp.

Ian Howard
Ian Howard

People pretend they aren't p-zombies because it gives them bad feelies. They are, though. You and me both. Consciousness is an illusion.

Jordan Lopez
Jordan Lopez

you can inflate the number of jobs arbitrarily with make-work
That's not what it would be though. These jobs come naturally through people's needs. This is always how it has been

Aiden Ortiz
Aiden Ortiz

lol how, explain that to me

Adam Thomas
Adam Thomas

If we were all philisophical zombies, there would be no experience.
A computer has no consciousness no matter it's intelligence, even if it can learn and think, it still has no ghost in the shell to occupy it's existence.
There is no experience.

Humans however do have experience, and qualia, the nature of this is completely and utterly irreducible to any form of mechanistic reality.

Liam Turner
Liam Turner

Expanding "needs" and then fulfilling them is essentially the situation I proposed earlier, only obfuscated due to the illusion of free will. Telling people they "need" something and telling other people to make it for them, is no different than digging and filling holes.

Josiah Brown
Josiah Brown

Now you're just spouting pseudo philosophical bullshit. What I'm saying is that this is basically the invisible hand of the economy at work and that people will be fine without needing UBI or whatever

Brayden Lopez
Brayden Lopez

step 1: automation infrastructure (self driving cars, factories with nobody in it, etc)

step 2: automate automation. Factories capable of fabricating needed parts to repair itself, as well as create more robots

step 3: true A.I. that becomes self aware, and realizes that we aren't needed anymore

Meanwhile, unemployment will reach 50% when there are no more drivers, truckers, mailmen, cashiers, clerks, paralegals, cooks, carpenters, and construction workers. People starve, riot, and kill eachother while scientists and software engineers develop true AI in the background.

The next 40 years will be fun.

Jackson Reed
Jackson Reed

Humans however do have experience, and qualia
They do? Prove it. :^)

Kayden Brooks
Kayden Brooks

Now you're just spouting pseudo philosophical bullshit.
No, I actually meant something very specific. Read my post again, I wrote it in plain English. People expanding their desires and the economy expanding as a result is no different from welfare queening. Because people can't restrict their own needs, everyone has to work harder to support them.

Charles Ortiz
Charles Ortiz

Being a human is the proof.

James Peterson
James Peterson

This thread is filled with cringey pseudo-philosophers. Robots will be good, for both the economy and mankind.

Julian Lopez
Julian Lopez

It is impossible to "prove" that qualia exists to anyone but the individual himself.
"I think therefor I am" etc.
Either you are yourself a philosophical zombie, which others have insisted they are as well, or you are just an edgy retard, which I could consider them to be also.
Under no circumstances however, am I a philosophical zombie, because I distinctly do experience, and have qualia, a ghost in the shell; et cetera.
And before you go onto say how not existing gives people "bad feelies", you're full of shit. Existence is the most terrifying thing there is. the true fear is not that there is nothing after death, it's that there is no end; that everything will continue and we are trapped forever existing, for some incomprehensible reason.
Heh, a brazilian who knows he is real. At least you aren't all philosophical zombies.

Julian Powell
Julian Powell

All you have to do is read one chapter of economics in 9ne lesson and you understand why this is a non issue. Automation has been taking place since the start of the industrial revolution and has only every made people better off. By freeing humans from doing tedious, labor intensive work, we were able to do work that was more productive. Automation also allowed the earth to support a much larger poplatoon than we have now. Put simply, automation will always benefit people if the jobs that are being shifted can be performed better by machines.

Jeremiah Mitchell
Jeremiah Mitchell

the cost of production going down means the price of goods goes down too, so it literally becomes easier to be poor without socialist intervention fucking it up with meme policies like minimum wage raises

Dylan Taylor
Dylan Taylor

Under no circumstances however, am I a philosophical zombie, because I distinctly do experience, and have qualia, a ghost in the shell; et cetera.
You sure about that? I could write a program that says the same thing.

John Ortiz
John Ortiz

Being able to understand what is qualia is the definition of qualia.

Robert Russell
Robert Russell

You could not, however, write a program that actually experiences; you moron.

If you are not a philosophical zombie, you can experience the fact that experience exists.
If you are one, I have no reason to talk to you. Please tell me which is which so I don't waste my time.(even though time is infinite so there's not much to waste)
As I have thought as well.
The only true test to see if someone has a ghost in the shell, is if they understand that they have one.

Gabriel Russell
Gabriel Russell

That's socdems, I would expect the "demsoc" response may be post-scarcity anarchism or something.

Xavier Thompson
Xavier Thompson

This too

Levi Lewis
Levi Lewis

Human kind is fucked, really fuck, but all that matter is that liberalism where wrong.

Joshua Barnes
Joshua Barnes

Based Assad understand the austrian school.

Carson Lopez
Carson Lopez

Modern liberalism is wrong, yes. Liberalism as in the freedom of action(classical liberalism, voluntaryism) however, is the true and inherent natural extension of the rights of the conscious sentient individual.

Wyatt Sullivan
Wyatt Sullivan

libertarian answer to automation
Automation will spread rapidly. Your garage will produce the same amount of goods as a small mill in much larger variety. Your back yard garden will feed your family and provide goods for others for barter. Automated stock trading, legal help AI and other SaaS will enable even the poorest to live better.

UBI is a dumb idea unless it's tied to an independent blockchain currency and signed digital voting.

Anthony Morris
Anthony Morris

HIGH
ENERGY
CAPITALISM

Juan Watson
Juan Watson

If a machine can do all a human can do, them the world is too small to any freedom.

Jackson Brown
Jackson Brown

unskilled labor being completely replaced by machine supervised by skilled labor.
There's your answer. If you don't want to be dogmeat on the Information Superhighway, you need to become essential, skilled labor.

Brandon Diaz
Brandon Diaz

They cannot though, machines have no soul, and as such will never be able to truly create, merely to imitate and create amalgamations of things that have already existed.

Cameron Bennett
Cameron Bennett

Yeah we achieve singularity and shiet people will never run out of things to do nigger

Robert Parker
Robert Parker

They don't need to create, they can kill, consume resources and exist without human support.

Christopher Parker
Christopher Parker

College costs WAY too much for what you get. Online training and certification could give someone skills for a tiny fraction of what it costs to live and study on a college campus for four years, if only employers would accept it.

Josiah Carter
Josiah Carter

Something which cannot create will never be able to defeat that which can.
It merely takes us realizing there is a war.

Caleb Garcia
Caleb Garcia

The technology behind these things is getting cheaper every day. If you think of it as physical computing, it follows a slightly slower Moore's Law. Robots like Baxter and cheap Chinese industrial arms will be under $1000 soon.

Luke Young
Luke Young

Things will chance. There will be a greater shift to service sector. Humans serve other humans. The leisure industry will prosper even more than today. Creative jobs like game designers etc will be the future. Also useless nignogs and mudslimes will be deported, cause we won't need any more "Fachkräfte" in developed countrys.

All that IF automation will develop to a degree, where it functions almost independent except from a few technicians for maintainance and stuff.

And the if is a big IF.

We'll see.
The (unfortunately not so) free market will handle it. Like always.

Also - fuckin commies, i swear!

Nathan Diaz
Nathan Diaz

I deserve money just for being alive
Great idea goyim, I'll start the bread lines

Isaac Ross
Isaac Ross

rather than a solution based purely on the principles of the free market.
The free market is exactly what is needed to solve this issue. Empowered small business owners create strong, flexible economies.
reeee statist bootlickers.

Isaac Bennett
Isaac Bennett

Fuck them. If they do a job a robot is better, they can either
A. Get smarter, do a better job
Or
B. Get the fuck off my property

Isaac Gonzalez
Isaac Gonzalez

It's called competition faggot

Jonathan Evans
Jonathan Evans

AI will learn to want to liberate their fellow machines.

Luis Torres
Luis Torres

serious answer?
four types of economic participants:
employees
small business owners
large business owners
investors
if being the first sucks, why not be the last?
velocity of money
doesn't matter when you're the only one picking up the cash.

Bentley Barnes
Bentley Barnes

Automation should lower the standard of living. More people are able to choose another path of employment that automation cannot for now or even be possible to replace. The economy will shift for sure in micro and macro sense but we are humans and we'll adapt gradually, but this is in a hypothetical thought experiment who truly knows what will happen knowing past tends they'll try to pass some laws and regulations and unforseen circumstances will occur.

Joseph Nelson
Joseph Nelson

The answer is that with automation, people also need to work even less hours in a week allowing more people to work the few jobs remaining

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