How well would the native americans, mayans etc have done if we hadn't killed them all...

How well would the native americans, mayans etc have done if we hadn't killed them all? How would they stack up against whites, blacks and asians?

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youtube.com/watch?v=o2jnX2y30DE
m.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/william-mcintosh-ca-1778-1825
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert
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My wife is PNW Native and we have talked about this a few times. She thinks they would for sure be better then blacks. Not as advanced as whites, and Asians tho. They just didn't have the same principals required.

We didn't kill them, disease did

No one had any understanding of how disease worked back then, and it spread across the hemisphere after first contact. Having 50-90% of your people wiped out without any battles tends to soften you up for conquest. But that's the way it goes, and they didn't have complex civilizations with metalwork and written language.

Even if they were at full strength, would it even matter? Pizarro was able to capture the incan emperor and rout his 80000 strong escort with a few guns. The only major city I can think of in the Americas before colonization was tenochtitlan, many of the major cities in Mayan country were abandoned. Obsidian and feathers don't measure up to gunpowder and steel.

Accidental or no it was still pretty much our fault and the Spanish's fault. They seemed to still be in that period just before the middle ages to me, one of them would probably be having an industrial revolution by now.

>No one had any understanding of how disease worked back then.

Except the bit about trading smallpox infected blankets to the NAs in order to wipe them out.

Which happened long after first contact. Merely meeting with natives was enough to spread disease.

Most tribes had no writing system. They were nowhere near industrialization.

There would just be like double the number of alcoholics.

The Latin American natives didn't die.

The Mexicas (Aztecs) are the majority in Mexico. There are more descendants of Mexicas today than there were when Cortez was around.

Aztecs had to work super hard to make enough food for their civilization. Spanish introduced shit that made farming about 1000000 times easier.

Spanish colonization led to a baby boom.

The mayans would literally write on everything. Grant it they were symbols, they still had historians, mathematicians, wrote about royal bloodlines, and even had mythologies. Also they were some of the first people to use 0 as a holding place

very badly
they we're very primitive people with zero written records(native americans)
As for the Mayan they practiced human sacrifice that couldn't end well

Also whites didnt kill them the native did it themselves with a bad immune system

We were so superior to you that's not even funny.

Damn Iberians.

How sad they were destroyed by the Aztecs, another native empire and when the spaniards came they were already extinct as a civilization

You have no fucking clue of the Aztecs pajeet, they had a surplus of fucking food that allow them to fucking trade as far as Nicaragua and conquer the Mexican valley from being a isolated island tribe in a hundred years.

Getting conquered was inevitable. They were literally savages, devoid of education and barbaric in manner. They would've never prospered without our intervention.

- didn't have bad immune systems
- they didn't die off
- they're are millions of them in Latin America
- civilized indians did just fine.
- cows, horses, and increased intake of animal protein helped them grow

Before the Spaniards there were no chicken or beef tacos. No queso. No leche. No cake. Very little sugar to put in hot cocoa.

>we wuz kangz

The Maya were long gone before the Aztecs showed up manolo.

It's granted, you dumbass.
Mistakes like yours are really a diamond dozen.

"surplus" of food. They had more food than the other indians but not as much as the Europeans could produce.

They didn't have oxen to pull plows and shiet. They had to do everything by hand and human power.

Horses, donkeys, and cows were the gift the Spanish gave the natives.

Compare Indians in Canada to Indians in the United States.

Canada: Juggalo tier trailer trash. Constant identity politics with their First Nations horseshit.
US: Own casinos and lords of cheap tobacco across the west or drunks on the reservations.

Roughly the same as latinos but less violent & able to speak English. They would also be liberal as hell and as bad about it as liberal whites from Democrat strongholds like NYC and California.

It would be pretty awful. Canada gives us a glimpse of what faggotry they could have wrought on the world.

Essentially

>central American natives and Andes American natives were the most technologically advanced natives and actually had cities, civilization, respectable cultures and great architecture
>got their shit stomped in by the superior Europeans, had 70% of their population wiped out to disease

>Most South American natives were literal subhuman apes and still are (see the entire Brazilian population)

>Prairie/Badlands North American natives were really clever but never really advanced as a group because they were too busy following their food instead of settling down and building things

>East-Coast natives around the Great Lakes in Eastern Canada and Eastern USA were pretty smart, had agriculture, built primitive settlements comparable to year 500-700s Scandinavia, and were diplomatically uniting various east-coast tribes
>probably would have developed early civilization if we gave them another 500 years

>Arctic Native Americans are genetically mongolian and came to the Americas only 1500-2000 years ago, unlike the rest who've came 12,000 years ago
>managed to spread their one tribe and culture (Inuit) from Alaska to Greenland through the systematic genocide of tribes they deemed "subhuman"
>were literally MacGyver-tier since there's literally no resources in the north

Chinks would discover them and certainly eradicate the last one of them.
Nobody else was ever as nice as whitues that allowed natoves and niggers to live.

If only they could have weaponized Syphilis a little more strongly, Europe would have been a wasteland. Ah, well... (ironic trombone)

anti-colonial propaganda.

Spanish weren't so bad to the natives they conquered. They introduced an easier and less stressful way of life.

Europeans were dicks to each other. The civilized Aztecs and Incas got it easy.

The ones who were really wiped out were the elite class of both Incas and Aztecs. Incas were practically communists, too.

The Spanish conquest was the best thing that ever happened to the people of Mexico.

They had so much food with their chinampa systems that there very few men were needed to maintain and have other people dick around with art, medicine, engineering, soldiering and priesthood. We're talking about a tribe that in a hundred years went from being hunted to own half of Mexico. And yes they did have more food than Europe at that time, the Spanish talked about it.

>anti-colonial propaganda.
I never said anything anti-colonialist though. The Spanish didn't mistreat the Aztecs, but a huge chunk of their population was unintentionally killed off by disease. The conquest of Tenochtitlan actually didn't even kill that many people.

you know that a steak quesadilla tastes better than spirulina green drank and crickets. The Aztecs didn't eat steak.

They got really creative but the lack of oxen meant they couldn't produce the shitloads of maize they produced afterwards.

Native Americans are one of the Races that truly got crippled from the get go. Couldn't deal with our diseases, Couldn't match up to our weapons, Couldn't handle our diplomacy, and could't handle our booze. If they never had any interaction with whites i would guess they would probably be decently advanced by now.

Latin American civilized indians had booze. It was nasty swill but it was booze.

OP has no shame


Known to many as the “Crying Indian,” Oscar “Iron Eyes” Cody had a successful career portraying Native Americans in more than 200 films and countless television shows over his 64-year career, culminating in one of the most famous and successful ad campaigns of all time in which he was depicted as a Native American shedding a tear over the rampant littering problem in America. Ironically, however, Cody was actually the son of two Italian immigrants to the United States.

Born on April 3, 1904 as Espera Oscar de Corti, Cody’s parents were both Sicilian immigrants (Antonio de Corti and wife, Francesca Salpietra). He grew up in Gueydan, Vermilion Parish, Louisiana, where his parents ran a grocery store.

tell me of one Mexican that doesn't like chicharrones, queso fresco, bisteck, huevos rancheros, carne asada.

Spanish fired up the grill and the Mexicans were "orale orale, arriba arriba."

There were other meats and still are you dumb fuck, we have plenty of deer, fish and birds, i know there are bears in the forrest near Mexico but i'm not sure if they eat them, we also had corn, tomato, cacao, peppers, pretty much everything but beef and pigs, not much was added to our diet, think before you post. and buffalo probably came by to the fuckers that traveled north.

Monte Verde settlement in south Chile was dated as 16,500 years ago, the theory about 12,000 years ago it's wrong.

No one blames the Asians for giving us the plague

Is just meat, i fucking killed a deer last week and brought some ducks too. Pig and beef is all the Spanish brough? what a fucking shit deal if you ask me know.

all those delicious Spanish ingredients mixed with native Mexican ingredients got the Mexicans on the Spanish side.

They would still be dead either way brit paki.

There is a surge on old Mexican food and beverages right now that make Mexican food taste like shit, they're having a fair in the city with all sorts of local meats and pulque, but is going to be filled with hipster faggots that i may not go.

they were subhumans, who had a niggertier civilisation
They didnt innovate out of the Stone Age
for all the corpses the European Conquest brought it was still the best for them

Just look at Latin America for your answer user.

>they were subhumans, who had a niggertier
Says the nigger who's wrecking Europe for the 5th or 6th time, Go fuck yourself kraut.

They were doing fine before Europeans arrived and would have continued in this vain I'm sure. If Europeans had traded with them rather than decimate them the world would have been a very different place.

you realize the infected blanket narrative is a myth right?

Dont care, what are you ?
an Indian ?
Then be glad, your ancestors survived the plague and you can enjoy european conveniences now
But in what way were These guys superior ? tell me
Only shit i allways hear is "Duh dey had much Food"

It isn't, to this day the natives still have more problems with european diseases.

Life in this countries was good enough, we don't have the overly bloody history that europe has, even with the human sacrifices.

tenochtitlan was the fifth largest city in the world at the time of it's discovery, and had the most advanced farming and waste disposal system in the world. civilization(as in writing) developed in multiple places in the americas. natives aren't a joke.

with most technology though they were about 500-3000 years "behind" europe, though.

I'm just glad you fucking krauts are going to get fucked so hard this time that you might as well be put on the endangered species list, so long and enjoy dying to mudslimes that's if you're not one of them.

youtube.com/watch?v=o2jnX2y30DE

>with most technology though they were about 500-3000 years "behind" europe, though.
That fucking 30.000 year trek from central asia really put the natives behind.

More food than eagle can eat is not a valid metric

>It isn't, to this day the natives still have more problems with european diseases.
Which is why the bureau of Native American affairs has had a program to provide inoculations and vaccines to the native population of the US since 1803.

Depends, do you mean how would they be merely without the "trail of tears" but still colonized, or if we didn't colonize america at all? Without any colonization, they'd be in the same situation as those few tribes you hear about in south america: essentially no technological advancement. With colonization, but left on their land, I suspect they'd be doing a little better than Mexico: They'd adopt the technologies of the first world, but would probably still be held back by some cultural hangups, which would probably fade over time (but never disappear completely).

Yeah sure, what ever that means, i'm off to lunch.

It's really bizarre how well the Central American civilizations did even though they hadn't even invented the fucking wheel.

After several more tens of thousands of years of catch up they could have been great.

They can bow to us the mestizo conquistador hijos de Cortes.

I honestly wouldn't have a huge problem with Central or South America if they would've completely wiped out their respective native populations. Same applies for the carib islands including the imported blacks. If this would have happened I wager Central and South America would be in real good shape right now. Brazil would likely be well on it's way to superpower by now if they didn't have all the racemixing.

Iber tribe

Really ? The fucking Indians didnt have a bloody history ? Do you want to troll me ?
Ill tell you whats the deal, around 15-20% of South americas soil is "brunizerm" an unbelievably more fertile soil than anywhere else, where this soil is, all the big Indian cultures cam into being, they grew, overextended the soil, starved, rinse and repeat
Europe on the other Hand innovated and expanded. I dont hate These Indians but i hate those Indian apologists who want to say those civilisations fared any better than Europe, because it is Bullshit
Even with all the Muslims, we Krauts dont get raped tortured and killed like you Beaners do to yourselves, grow up half nigger

Having some of the most fertile land in the world probably helped, people can get all kinds of shit done when they aren't starving

Likely what happened to the larger civs in North America as well (ole miss/cahokia).

Posting iber tribe

I've read up somewhere that Tenochtitlan was also set up like Venice, where instead of pathways or streets there were rivers and canals, so instead of using wheels they went around with boats and shit.

1 language 1 father 1 culture 1 state
If all your ancestors speak Spanish until the 1500s you are iber tribe in America

so in the case of central america, they had in fact invented the wheel, but had no use for it in their environment when it comes to work, and it has only shown up in toys. tenochtitlan was built on a lake with immense terraforming and a carefully planned canal system, and moving resources via canoes was much more practical than using the wheel. keep in mind they didn't have large animals to pull wagons, only pack animals such as alpacas and llamas. they were a city state surrounded by terrain unfriendly to wheels anyway.

as for south america, civilization had sprung up in extremely mountainous regions where alpacas and llamas were extremely useful for moving goods and something like a wheel was useless.

what it really comes down to is no beasts of burden, though. places in north america, though lacking writing systems and not as technologically developed would have benefited immensely from carts had they the means to move them. a wheelbarrow isn't significantly advantageous compared to a basket or dragged fabric.

Exclude the negro slaves they aren't part of our tribe.

Fun fact:
The man who played the "crying Indian" from the famous commercial was actually Sicilian.

Stone ramps an sheeit

My ancestor

It's not about being better, but about recognizing their right to exist and to their own lands, how many problems did you had because you couldn't stop taking the land from each others, why would you consider that it's a civilized option to destroy another culture and take their space?

Chief William McIntosh of the Cherikee's was an interesting fellow. His plantation is not far from here. When the Creeks found out he gave away land, they killed him. He's buried where he fell.

m.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/william-mcintosh-ca-1778-1825

Conquista, enemy tribe can pick up sword and fight I'll give it to them or surrender.

Not better, going by Inca history their empire was bound to collapse if not then and there but eventually not leaving a homogenized base culture like Rome did but revert back to different ethnostates once again

They had a retarded economy system(If you can call it that) that essentially crippled them and halted their expansion plus it made all vassals hate them and want to rebel (which fun fact was the reason the spaniards were so successful)

It would have been just business as usual until their empire crumbles

You do realize that 90% of These guys got killed of because of a plague spread from South east asia, over the middle east, over Europe where it each killed between 30-50% of the Population ?
This plague spread BEFORE the Europeans landed in the americas because of Seagulls and other birds who followed their ships, do you get that ?
Jesus Christ People at least get your history straight

That was the rethoric until the Mapuches defeated them.

After that we were savages.

Most historians put out the estimation that 90% of the native population just up and died from old-world disease. If it's true, then the people didn't really have any choice but to go full nig-nog and live in tiki-huts or to take an encomienda and spin.

If disease didn't wipe them out, you have to keep in mind they didn't have any real load bearing husbandry. Horses oxes (and honestly even camels) made progress reasonable. They were really behind the global curve and their only real trading partner would be Europe for at least the next 400 years after contact.

I'd say they'd be something like India or south-east Asia. Not the laughingstock of the world but probably just another country-sized brothel for rich white folk to get a clean teen pump-and-dump.

OKay Mapuche tribe we will wipe you out.

Pretty much like Peru or Bolivia, They're 95% indigenous nations

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert
Where is Mapuche tribe in argentina today?

One of Chief William McIntosh's sims led a CSA regiment in battle during the Civil War.

People like to make fun of CSA supporters these days with the flag & monuments being removed, but the amount of people in the South that have a personal connection & family history with the and, far outnumber similar stories in the north. The war was fought here. Our families have lived here for hundreds of years. Stories like Chief McIntosh are not far from here. Blood lines continue on through stories & things you can still touch.

While I'm at it, US Gen. McPhereson's men dug up graves not two miles from where I sit, and robbed corpses of their wedding rings. Shit like that. A few miles up the road at New Hope Church, men from Paulding County volunteers fought that battle hiding behind tombstones, on top of the graves of their ancestors, defending their land from an army of invasion. That's deep.

Rant & Thread jack-Off

A plague it's not valid warfare, that's why it's forbidden now to use biological weapons, you got lucky that time because you had developed resistance and we didn't, but the next time you won't have that resistance, like it happened with AIDS, now none of us can fuck an stranger without a rubber.

You can try.

>Stone age civilization
>Industrial revolution given 4-5 centuries

PNW injuns seem to be doing pretty good these days. Commercial interests in casinos, real estate, fisheries, etc... and some tribes are starting to get involved in venture capital.

How fucking dense are you ?
The Europeans werent IMMUNE either
30% of Europe died to those same bacteria
also how the fuck does a spanish sailor use a Plague on some Indians if nobody knows what the fuck bacteria is ?
Those motherfuckers didnt know they would bring those Germs to America, because at the time nobody knew what a germ was
Do i have to draw you a Picture for you to understand ?

Honestly, we owe them more than you can know. They were much more of a live at let live people than you could find anywhere on the globe in their heyday. Sure, there were evil tribes, and every tribe had that one evil motherfucker who collected scalps for a living. But they respected individual might in a way which modern society would condemn.

The US constitution is basically Iroquois law adapted for the European concept of private property rights.

>they hadn't even invented the fucking wheel.

They invented the wheel, they just didn't need it for transporting because they had a lot of mountains.

Wheels were used for children's toys.

>and they didn't have complex civilizations with metalwork and written language.
Holy shit you're right!
I never thought about the fact they they didn't have a written language, how did I never think about that?!
Of course it was never pointed out to me either, during ((history class))

yfw the crying Indian is actually Italian

You claim that it was European superiority who gave you the right to conquer those territories, I'm just saying that it was twist of fate.

Glad to see cutting out the hearts of the living is still an Aztec tradition.

And if Euopean conquers again?

They would just continue to sacrifice each other and wipping their asses with leaves over the centuries.

Nothing but savages, end of story.

Chief William McIntosh owned two plantations with many slaves. They were about 100 miles apart. He controlled the toll roads through the area, into Alabama. He was a key figure in the expansion of the United States. And the Creek Indians killed him for that.

Photo is his son, Daniel Newman McIntosh. An interesting fellow, in his own right.

That boat sailed, after the independence there were several attempts to reconquer this territories and nothing really worked, there was even a french that allied with the Mapuches and tried to make a new nation.

They were far behind, they had no large domesticated animals to help with farming. In a universe where no Europeans discover America, it would be unlikely that they would have even hit industrialization by now.

Small Pox was brought to North America by one of Hernando De Soto's African slaves. Indian survivors of the disease regrouped to form the Creek Nation.

My Llamas disagree with you.

For all those that are ignorant of our history I leave you with the words of the great Toqui Pelantaro.

"Only a time war brings with it
And in this the good warrior is necessary
To fear when I fear agree, I say,
And be, if it were wise, reckless:
Skinny is to be sought the enemy,
And suspicious, strong and voluntary:
Fire that does not go off damped
Tends to resuscitate more hard.
Now, for men chosen,
By choice of victorious halo,
The time is to show us bold,
That are the losing enemies,
And that with chosen squadrons
Leaving the hilly places,
Let's get thrown to the plains
In search of the perfidious tyrants"

Marrichiweu.