Redpill me on abortion

Is this good, is this bad ? It is only a matter of religion ? Should it be legal to abort before a heartbeat is detected ?

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youtube.com/watch?v=1tNfYvgVLS8
youtube.com/watch?v=Vwrc1iLsYCg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect
freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/
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A new human life begins at conception. This not a religious assertion but scientific fact - a new, unique human DNA pattern has emerged from the moment of conception and a new human being has begun the earliest stage of his or her life. Killing the unborn child is killing a human being.

And yet, I believe it should be legal. We don't need more "urban" babies and teen single moms. Besides, you can't really prevent women from killing their unborn babies, if there is no clinic they will do it at home. Even if we make home abortions punishable by death, the woman could simply fake a miscarriage and no one could tell the difference. So you can't enforce a law against abortion at all.

tl;dr abortion is scientifically murder, but should legally be OK

heres all you need to know about why abortion is awesome

Is it bad?
Yes.
Should it be legal?
Would only say if 1) it's proven that the fetus was created as a result of a "real" assault or 2) if the birth would kill the mother.

Use a fucking Condom Jesus Christ, if you are dumb enough to shoot the load off without it then you are in no position to drop your responsibility.

Abortion of healthy non-rape child for the sake of further hedonism is no differ from cannibalism.

why is murder (something morally reprehensible) in any way an aceptable method of reaching a more perfect society? how is a society better if you can kill a child out of convenience?

this is the argument of social engineers, you do not have the right to say when murder is okay just because you have a "good" goal in mind

This is somewhat how I feel. I make people admit that it IS murder before we continue talking about the legal side of it.

why the fuck do you care so much about thousands of unborn blacks who grow up and continue the cycle

How would you propose to effectively enforce a law against abortions? Keeping in mind that a woman can easily fake a miscarriage from the comfort of her home.

The fact that many people who agree it should be legal try to somehow qualify the unborn child as "not yet human" really creeps me out. Yes it is killing human beings, we shouldn't need to lie to ourselves about these realities in society. We don't call the homeless people 'part time street performers'.

because a) the people who you WANT to start getting abortions for the right reasons never do (see planned parenthoods negro program of the fifties) and b) because how is regulated, medically handled murder any better than thugs killing each other in the street?

just say "no abortions" obviousy people aregoing to get abortions in some instances, murder is not allowed but it still happens, but when you say "no abortions" you enforce the belief in society that human life is more precious that humans capacity to indulge oneself and "live the child free life"

The reason you have no plan for enforcing this law and are now discussing the zeitgeist is that it is impossible to enforce this law, as I said before.

Since abortion will be happening no matter what, it makes perfect sense to have abortion clinics making sure the procedure is done properly and the unborn child's remains can be put to medical purposes.

This is the most logical thing to do, under the circumstances. And you can talk about how human life is precious all day but we both know thats not really true.

That's funny because it 'creeps' people out when I tell them they are ending a human life if they perform an abortion. It just makes them so uncomfortable. I'm sure these people have just never given enough thought to the process. An actual reason for the legality of it, given to me by a woman was: "Most abortions happen before the 10 week mark, before they are even a 'thing'" I genuinely don't know how to reason with someone who believes that.

well i haven't read anything about that program so i'll have look into that. but thugs killing each other in the streets becomes a public and cultural issue through either creating fear and shame in the community or spreading degenerate culture. not to mention the possibility of multiple innocent bystanders being affected by their shit

Its almost always women who buy into this comforting narrative about unborn children, for obvious reasons.

>before they are even a 'thing'
sensiblechuckle.png

It's a catholic meme.
Overpopulation is bad.

"Just wait. By Christmas time it'll be a cunt, just like you. "

Peter refutes the standard pro murder points pretty well here.

youtube.com/watch?v=1tNfYvgVLS8

>Overpopulation is bad
Yes it is, but killing something merely because "you didn't mean to" isn't good either.

Consider this. Murder will happen no matter what. Let's say we had perfect weapons that can disintegrate specific people and this weapon is 'cruelty free' i.e. no suffering. We might as well provide these weapons in the case that someone decides to end your life, so that the murderer isn't hurt and you die completely peacefully.

Your argument is ridiculous. In your worldview, nothing is worth striving for, since 'people will never change'

jews love babies.

The law against murder is very enforceable though. It takes enormous effort and intelligence to commit murder without facing legal consequences. Even if abortion were outlawed, and even if the women became punishable (right now we punish the doctors), still it would be a very simple matter to avoid the consequences of a law against abortion. So making the law is pointless. If you want to prevent abortion, you need a different strategy.

Oh boy, I gotta agree with a leaf here. Pretty much my stance on it too. The discussion of when is it life and should it be protected and recognized as human by the state is so fucking arbitrary.

It either is or is not. All the arguments for an in between are not based on solid logic and go into metaphysics and philosophy or worse emotions.

Seeing that this life has to gestate in an already recognized human by the state with bodily autonomy raises all kinds of potential issues.

Also, I wonder if people also would take into account the sociol-economic environment allot of these children from loose women would be forced to grow up in. Allot of these women would be pumping an endless stream of criminals into our society.

You have to be pragmatic about it. Yes you kill a human. But you kill the Tyrone in the womb.

"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling."
Thomas Sowell

...

i agree that violenece in the street is a problem, but i fail to see how the mark of a good society is finding a way to fix the problem with eugenics. a good society fixes its problems with good morals not good shortcuts

a) don't ever change your standards because of other peoples failure to meet them (i.e. you shouldn't lower the high school graduation requirements just because some students can't pass them, it'll only make us all dumber)

b) it is only logical to do if your goal is to live in a utopia free of the natural problems of life. I'll be the first one to mention how problems in the black commmunity bring down the whole country, but using eugenics is not how you "fix" the problem

That's where I'm at.

The strategy is similar to our campaign against murder. People think you are nuts if you have/are thinking of killing someone. Saying abortion is illegal is somewhat of a formality, but it sends a message that this society won't tolerate murder.

FUCKING RARE

>Saying abortion is illegal is somewhat of a formality, but it sends a message that this society won't tolerate murder.

this


the real problem with abortion is that the consequence of reckless sexual abandon was getting pregnant, the inherent lesson being, "keep your gentials in check or your going to be stuck as a parent"

when reducing human life to "just a clump of cells" it is done in the name of allowing people to endlessly indulge themselves free of consequences, which causes thousands of other problems.

I am not weeping my eyes out over every aborted fetus the same way I am not losing sleep over people dieing in Sudan, what is disturbing to me and sets our society up for many more problems is the fact that we can reduce the signifigance of life in the name of being able to fuck whenever and however we want.

damn the present reality, I want a fucking change in this sick world and I'm not ashamed to say it just because "it just isn't feasible"

>People think you are nuts if you have/are thinking of killing someone
Not if you kill the person under the right circumstances. If you're a soldier or policeman you might have to kill people during your work day, no problem there if it's "by the books". If you are a citizen defending yourself against a deadly assault you might kill your attacker, again so long as you're within the rules you're fine. Same goes for women killing unborn children.

Why do you assert that it is murder. To make such a claim is to also claim that you have a perfect all encompassing definition of human life. Problem is, you can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that that definition is true, because of this it's best to just leave government action out of the question and just let people be.

>A new human life begins at conception. This not a religious assertion but scientific fact - a new, unique human DNA pattern has emerged from the moment of conception and a new human being has begun the earliest stage of his or her life. Killing the unborn child is killing a human being.
I'm pro-choice too because I'm a realist, but that's also why I feel the need to correct you on this. Whether or not its a human life is not some vague philosophical thing, it is 100% a new human being.

you're right I should have said "murder". Self defense and threats are great reasons to end someone. It just comes down to whether or not you think abortion is "murder"

leave abortion alone..it serves its purpose!
Abortion for people is murder tho, luckily Niggers get the majority of abortions so its fine...shit should be free! it's pretty much the best crime prevention we have!

youtube.com/watch?v=Vwrc1iLsYCg
watch till 1:30

but by saying that it is NOT life (or acting in a way that it implies that it is not life) YOU are implying that you have a perfect all encompassing definition of human life, just that you disagree on definitions.

my definition is simply as follows. life can be single-celled, and the cells in a womans uterus that are being formed into a child are definitively human, therefore, no matter which phase of development it is in, a fetus is life because the only reason a process has begun to form it is to create new life ( amputating a limb and saying that its killing life doesn't work because an arm was never intended to function on its own)

also, what i want is for the government to be left out of it, at least compared to how it is now. you realize that when republicans want funding to be cut from planned parenthood its not because they don't want to be taxed more. it's because that is their government literally paying for abortions

The distinction between killing a human being and murdering a human being is arbitrary. It only matters in a courtroom.

that is fine, but abortions are not decided in a courtroom

saying that abortion is the equivalent of any other governmentally dictated life taking process (like the death penalty or war making) would imply that more people than just the slut who was too stupid to use a condom have a real say in the abortion taking place

Abortion is my power.

MOLOCH grows ever stronger.

All Glory to the Horrid King Besmear'd in Blood.

ABAR BA'ESH. PRAISE MOLOCH.

Abortion is illegal in my country, only on rare occasion it can be done.

Anyway, I would be mad if a girlfriend of mine would abort my child!
I believe that the father should have legal rights on his child.

Don't fuck people you'd never want to be the parent of your child. Abortion IS killing, although in rare cases justified, like some medical conditions.

Also this.

Women offer up their baby saying

"demon god! Take this sacrifice, that I may have a fulfiling career and happy life, free of all responsiblity!"

Those clinic are alters

Abortion is the equivalent. It's one more "necessary evil".

Children (and hey, even unborn children) will die in bombing raids, as do women, feeble old men, cute puppies, blah blah blah. They are killed and the man who kills them with his fancy flying death machine is never ever called a murderer because it was a "necessary evil". We needed to fight the [Insert Enemy Here] for glory of [Insert Nation-State Here] so the "collateral damage" is acceptable. What does that tell you about the preciousness of human life?

>No uterus, no opinion
>It's up to men to pay

Human life begins at conception when when a sperm and egg combine
to form a cell that has a full 100% Human Genome, made of 23 pairs of chromosomes
at no point prior to this can it be said that either gamete is actually human.

counting Conception as day 0, human development on average lasts 8.5 to 9.5 months in the womb.
A child Born around 4.5 to 5 months of development, Given current technologies,
is estimated to have a 50% chance of surviving past the first year.

in many countries, laws permit the murder of developing humans during the first 6 months,
the first and second 3 month periods of development which are commonly referred to as
the first and Second Trimester.
In other countries, Murder of infants is allowed for the entire period prior to birth.
Begging the question,
why is it that so many humans are not granted the human right to live ?
despite the fact that they are clearly humans genetically.

how would you feel if you were denied the right to live simply because
you weren't old enough, based on another person's standard ?
or simply because you were an inconvenience to your mother ?

what if when you're old and infirm, your family
instead of choosing an old folks home for you to stay in.
instead, bought you a coffin, invited your friends and relatives over for your wake/funeral
let you say your goodbyes, read your will, then put you in your coffin
Murdered you and buried you in the same weekend ?

after all you'll be just as much as a burden as a baby is.
think of all the money your family would save if they gave you
an Abortion instead of a retirement.

You hold no power here

you're relegating the powers of controlling this "necesary evil" to sexually irresponsible children.

also don't change the argument. I'm not talking about corrupt warmongers, and I am not implicitly defending them by leaving them out of this discussion. my point is and always has been that it is not okay to kill your baby because you don't want to be a parent. I'd love to explain away the meaninglessness of life to those in power, but thats not what we're tlking about, so don't pull that non sequitor crap on me

>why is murder (something morally reprehensible) in any way an aceptable method of reaching a more perfect society?
because niggers gonna nig

>how is a society better if you can kill a child out of convenience?
because less niggers

>you do not have the right to say when murder is okay just because you have a "good" goal in mind
you have no right to insist that your wife refrains from fucking black cocks, which in your case is obviously not a problem

It sounds like killers always dehumaise their victims.

Calling them a fetus, the enemy, a facist, a commie, ect.

this is the leafest post I have ever read

not an argument cuckold

Abortion is good for muds and degenerates, we already have too many of those as it is.

>Abortion is good because it reduces poverty and crime.
>Genociding the poor is good because it reduces poverty and crime.

The ends do not justify the means. Abortion is always wrong.

>fuggg?! n-nani:DDDDDD?!?!!

whichever party wants to keep the baby rather than abort it is the party who should raise the baby.

I totally agree, user

Good if you're a shitskin

>my point is and always has been that it is not okay to kill your baby because you don't want to be a parent
Can you give me an argument for why abortion is bad that does not appeal to emotion? An argument that has nothing to do with how precious and sacred our human lives inherently are? (they aren't)

>don't pull that non sequitor crap on me
I'm sorry, I just didn't want to talk in circles

Very astute of you, it's mental gymnastics we play to make it easier to do it.

thats entirely different you dolt, does the woman eat her aborted fetus? no

the fact that you cannot produce a single counter argument beyond "hurr leaf" is telling

your cuckery is the reason the west is about to die and be replaced by hordes of shitskin animals

you would really be doing humanity a huge favour if you just went ahead and killed yourself right now

Depends. White conservatives should not have abortions. Everyone else should be forced to have abortions.

FPBP

it is bad because it is implicitly legalizing the idea that human life is not worth shit. you might think, for your own emotional reasons, that life isn't actually worth shit, but when that becomes essentially the law of the land, the already abusive government can get away with doing much much worse shit.

tl;dr defending lifes inherent objective value is a means of fighting government enslavement

lol, read the thread my man, kill yourself

see

Is the death penalty murder, user?

Paying for my GFs abortion was the best $600 I ever spent

>Can you give me an argument for why abortion is bad that does not appeal to emotion? An argument that has nothing to do with how precious and sacred our human lives inherently are? (they aren't)
Why not do start killing everybody then? Old people, weak people, poor people etc.

It depends on race, at the moment all the races that breed like cockroaches should be forced to have abortions......you know to save the planet from over population.

I think the opposite is the problem. People swallow the BS about their lives being sacred and their freedom being inviolable, when actually the government can have you put in a cage without trial at any time, or even assassinated. If more people realized just how little value individuals really have, we might see larger groups for organized resistance to tyranny.

I have no reason to kill anyone, my point is just that killing people is not necessarily immoral.

I wouldn't feel anything

yes, but it is murder that is agreed upon by a society, and done in a manner that is agreed upon by society, and only done after an arduous investigation

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's agreed upon in a legal fashion. the decision to have an abortion, as Ive said already, is made by one person who is already a fortiori bad at making decisions.

>People swallow the BS about their lives being sacred and their freedom being inviolable, when actually the government can have you put in a cage without trial at any time, or even assassinated.

dude, what the fuck are you on about? save me your seventh grade nihilism, our countries are not empires of evil and even if they were it's your job to stand up for what is right and tell (((them))) to fuck right off with their lecherous, social engineering bullshit. and that's not an appeal to emotion, abortion is an invention of convenience made to allow freer sex lives, my argument is the same one jeff goldblum makes in jurassic park: don't fuck around with the way the world works.

>what the fuck are you on about? save me your seventh grade nihilism
kek

I'm not a fucking nihilist, but under Bush-era counter-terrorism legislation you can be detained indefinitely without trial. At any time they can call you a terrorist and boom, you've got no rights at all. Individuals are powerless.

and you can bet we don't have any more of a right to a trial in leafland if they decide we don't. It's the same everywhere else too. It doesnt mean we live in evil empires or w/e, and it doesn't mean I have no concept of moraly. My point here is that your concept of morality puts too much value on individual life.

>My point here is that your concept of morality puts too much value on individual life.

if you are putting little to no value on human life, it is only because you have some "final goal" in mind

no one wants to commit "evil" so they rationalize there actions as "means to achieving a good," even most liberals don't like abortions (hence why they say "safe, legal and RARE") they just see it as a neesary evil in the name of a greater good

all of these greater goods have necesary evils, and that is because they are, themselves, evil.

you are arguing from the viewpoint of having a goal in mind, some great utopia, in which we may even live without abortion, (so long as we can accomplish our other goals through means of a necesary evil.)

I put value on life because that is the end all be all of life. you are a human, and your job is to live and keep life going, not to keep things moving in some direction, no matter how good you think it is. defending life is not something weighing down my ideas or opinions, all my ideas and opionions come after that, it's why I hate war and evil governments, and its why i don't blow my fucking brains out. life means something, if you don't believe that just kill yourself now because utopia does not exist

>A new human life begins at conception. This not a religious assertion but scientific fact - a new, unique human DNA pattern has emerged from the moment of conception and a new human being has begun the earliest stage of his or her life. Killing the unborn child is killing a human being.

What is the argument for this being the point of it being a true 'human'?

I don't really have many thoughts on the matter but wouldn't it make more sense for the difference between a lump of tissue and a new human something more concrete, such as a heartbeat or brain activity?

>all of these greater goods have necesary evils
Absolutely. Everything comes at a price. No matter what you want, you will have to sacrifice SOMETHING for it in order to get it. Hunt for the bargains.

>I put value on life because that is the end all be all of life
wat

>you are a human, and your job is to live and keep life going, not to keep things moving in some direction
There are things worth dying for user.

>life means something, if you don't believe that just kill yourself now
Individual lives mean very little, actually. We are parts of a greater whole. We contribute to immortal ideas through our small experience. Consider the bee and the hive. One bee is as nothing but the hive is a treasure trove of honey made by their collective will.

The emergence of the unique DNA pattern means a new organism has emerged, so the lump of cells is no longer just the sex organs of the male and female. It is a new human being. Really, what else could it be called?

>What is the argument for this being the point of it being a true 'human'?

1.) the function of a human uterus is to create children. therefore any "cells" forming within it, (so long as the proper materials are present (sperm,egg)) and there is no life-threatening anomalies present in the development of said cells, is a life form. since it is conceived within a humand and using human materials, it is a human life form

>There are things worth dying for user.
yes, things that ensure the prolonged life of your loved ones/community

>Consider the bee and the hive. One bee is as nothing but the hive is a treasure trove of honey made by their collective will.

exactly. and if their collective will was that life was meaningless and one drop in the bucket doesn't matter, they would all function in a way that tempted their eventual demise. live like life means something, even if the evidence and popular opinion is that it doesn't and you push the hivemind in the right direction

>live like life means something, even if the evidence and popular opinion is that it doesn't and you push the hivemind in the right direction
Interesting. Thanks for the talk user.

Just because you are enslaved to Moloch doesn't mean everyone needs to be. Your choice is your own. You are living with the consequences.

The Donohue-Levitt hypothesis argues that crime rates decreased in legalized abortion states in the 90's due to Roe v. Wade in the 70's. Basically, kids born to single moms/families who don't want them are more likely to grow up to be criminals, so because a bunch were never born, they weren't around to commit the crimes.

Of course it's just a theory but still something to think about. But really, if a chick is determined to get rid of a kid there's all sorts of ways she could do it. Just drinking unpasteurized milk could be enough.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/

Killing the poor would reduce crime and poverty rates. Should we do that?

Fpbp

Abortion is a distraction "issue" used by right wing politicians to deflect attention away from legislation which is passed in congress that harms everyday Americans such as banking laws/housing/medical system laws. The GOP also loves to fuck over the budget and flail their arms around when they don't get 100million to in government contracts to their lobbyist friends, hence, for the last 25 years, this group has used abortion as a way to manipulate the retarded American "conservative" faction.

Negro crime dropped sharply in the US about 17 years after Roe vs. Wade so I'm all for it.

The fact that we are having this debate is proof that western society is fucking crumbling.
Holy shit, you will be made into a social pariah for suggesting that women should keep their fucking legs closed and not have massive amounts of casual sex, but vacuuming out a fetus out of a womb is perfectly acceptable.

I think it should be legal. Hell why the fuck not? Do you want more fucking niggers raised by single mothers voting democrat for more gibmedats? Government should provide free abortions, as long as they are forced to get their tubes tied. Abortion won't cause the collapse of society, its just a symptom of it.

I'm not so much arguing we should encourage abortion because it might* reduce crime rates, just pointing out that the act could have a net positive affect on society. Do you feel bad when a bank robber gets shot by the cops? Sure it's not like you want him to die, but it's overall good for society. Not something to cry over.

You're looking at this through the eyes of someone who takes parental responsibility seriously, so maybe you don't understand how shitty these kids' lives would be. Legally forcing someone to take care of a child they don't want (and probably can't afford) is never going to result in a well-adjusted individual.

>how would you feel

You wouldn't feel anything because you would be an unborn fetus whose brain is a few cells across. We shouldn't avoid abortion out of deference to the fetus's comfort because it doesn't understand life or death. Depending on how old it is and how fast the procedure is, it might not even feel pain.

Abortions for everyone! It will make the world a better place if the stigma gets removed from abortion.

wtf I love abortion now

Why do you not get your birth certificate amd other documents at the time of contraception then? You are a bundle of cells, not a functioning and concious human being

This is where I'm at on it.
It's kind of a necessary evil. May as well do it in the safest most professional manner.

Human life is as important as insect life or bird life. Despite what hardcore christfags will have you believe, humans are actually evolved apes, smart animals, nothing special in the slightest.

Human life holds no special value, and therefore I give no fucks about wether or not a fetus is a human or life beginning at conceptions. Life is nothing more than a combination of chemical reactions. Abortion prevents unwanted humans from being born, and I'm all for that. Less unwanted humans = less overall suffering in the world. Most babies that would be aborted would lead a shitty life and end up being shitty people.

For the same reason, I am also positive on assisted suicide, pulling the plug on uncurable diseased people, and so on.

The meme that humans are so special needs to end.