I'm a Marxist (not the idpol type) and recently I have felt the creeping suspicion that i'm wrong...

I'm a Marxist (not the idpol type) and recently I have felt the creeping suspicion that i'm wrong, I would like to hear some information from the other side for once. Any material or arguments that you deem proof socialism/communism does not work would be welcome. I just want to find what's right.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism
youtube.com/watch?v=ccASsjhhgP8
youtube.com/watch?v=8vMypCinkRk
youtube.com/watch?v=_r9Z-hTn1r4
youtube.com/watch?v=dQiBD-crrvA
youtube.com/watch?v=3arYamUaQU4
youtube.com/watch?v=nrT0kBeld3Q
mises.org/library/man-economy-and-state-power-and-market
youtube.com/watch?v=4343dv0jOUI
archive.is/dBehg
bbc.com/news/world-39325206
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

...

Nothing's right

Now bye

(fucking socialism ruined our country)

Do you know how you can scientifically proof that something works? By showing a working example. Can you show working communism example?

Venezuela duh

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

Communism is shit because you cant into prices

/Thread

How bow dis

Why is everyone who sympathies with socialism lazy, poor and unsuccessful?

Stop having an opinion and try to learn in the most open mind possible while trying to refute empirically any claim you hear. Honestly it probably won't work because you don't seem intelligent enough.

I'm trying to have an open mind, that is why I made this thread.

Socialism promotes running away from personal responsibility, that's why it's also colliding with christianity, because it's about "carrying the cross" by yourself.

You don't give the fucking cross to the goverment and sit back, do it by yourself you cunt, it will give you purpose and meaning in life. Stupid nihilistic commie fuckheads with their suicidal memes, do something about your life.

Seeking comfort and freedom will only give you emptiness and void.

Go clean up your room you mongoloid.

Venezuela is poor as shit m8, not exactly what I would call working.

Working example please

Youtube is probably your best place to start. You'll come across truths and lies but I think by deduction you'll come to a conclusion easily. Once you have a take, it's easy to see how manulative and lying the other side is because you then know what their objective is.

But that's not real socialism

Everyone is equal in a real social country

Fair point
I knew I came to the right place

*manipulative

You are right about capitalism.
You are wrong about race mixing and immigration.

Have you considered National Socialism?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Communism is hunting for the Paradise
Which paves the way to hell, leaving behind millions of dead and destroying whole civilizations.


Where there is much light, there is a strong shadow

>I'm a Marxist (not the idpol type) and recently I have felt the creeping suspicion that i'm wrong
really what you've felt is that the nazis and the commies were closer than you think

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism
stalinists were practically nazis

Fake

>The majority of Jews were "not directly affected by the Great Terror, and of those who were, most suffered as members of the political elite."[19] Between 1937 and 1938, an estimated 1 percent of all Jews in the Soviet Union were arrested for political crimes in contrast to 16 percent of all Poles and 30 percent of all Latvians.[20]

>Joseph Stalin adopted a pro-Zionist foreign policy, apparently believing that the new country would be socialist and would speed the decline of British influence in the Middle East.[2] Accordingly, in November 1947, the Soviet Union, together with the other Soviet bloc countries voted in favor of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine,[3] which paved the way for the creation of the State of Israel. On May 17, 1948, three days after Israel declared its independence, the Soviet Union officially the first country to grant Israel de jure recognition.
>Soviet Union supported Israel in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War with weaponry supplied via Czechoslovakia.[26]
>North Vietnam’s Politburo chairman, Ho Chi Minh, suggested to David Ben-Gurion in 1946 that he proclaim a Jewish Government in Exile, and establish such a government’s headquarters in North Vietnam, Mr. Ben-Gurion revealed last night.
>Communist bloc Israel, In the early Cold War days, Israel appeared to fit in the category of being a “Stalinoid State"
>1947-1948 USSR sole military and politcal supporter of Israel
>Soviet Union led by Stalin politically and militarily supports creation of Israel, under condition that it remains loyal to USSR-socialism
>1947 Soviet Union, together with the other Soviet bloc countries voted in favor of the United Nations Plan for Israel
>1948 Arab–Israeli War, Soviet Union supports Israel and weaponry supplied via Czechoslovakia
>Yitzhak Rabin, an IDF commander said without the arms from USSR via Czechoslovakia... it is very doubtful whether we would have been able to conduct the war
>1948 Soviet Union officially the first country to grant Israel de jure recognition
>1948-1951 Israel is a socialist/marxist state with Stalin portraits and Soviet flags everywhere
>Ben Gurion leader of Israel through Maipai (Poale Zion
>Gurion was a member of the state sanctioned Evreiskaia kommunisticheskaia partiia (Poalei-Tsion) USSR Party.

I have always felt that the USSR and Nazi Germany were dicks

Consider this:

In a libertarian society, you are entirely free to join or start a commune. Communes whose rulesets do not work will just die an economic death. Those that do can be mimicked by other communes.

You cannot, however, be libertarian in a communist society.

The reason why niggers and other shitskins and poorfags are poor is because of low IQ.

First this And look at all the times socialism/communism has failed, now I know you're going to say "it wasn't real communism" or "it was actually capitalism" and you would be absolutely right, it isn't real communism because real communism is unimplementable in any human society, it goes against basic human instincts to accrue as much resources (wealth in modern society) as possible while not sharing it with people you aren't personally connected to. It is not in human nature to commonly own goods because humans evolved over thousands of years in cutthroat competition and extremely hard conditions and we survived because we didn't share our resources outside of our own family or tribe. It is also against human nature to abandon closeness to our race or religion (which marxism attempts to do through forced atheism and removal of ethnic segregation) thus any attempt to establish marxism/communism will crumble since our brains and psychology at large still work like they did 10000 years ago.

Which is also why all post commie states have very weak or no racial, religious or national identity since marxism destroy it all.

yeah well shut up
then how the fuck are you a marxist

i bet you're a (((trotskyist)))

North Korea is the most racially pure nation on Earth. They have been recovering from their famine in the 90's even though almost every country has sanctions or an embargo on them. They have traditional family-based values and strong gender roles. Housing, food, healthcare, clothing, and education are all guaranteed to every citizen.

youtube.com/watch?v=ccASsjhhgP8

what like Albert Einstein? Or George Orwell?

Another fair point
I'm a Marxist Leninist, I feel that Stalin was a traitor of the revolution.

>Housing, food, healthcare, clothing, and education are all guaranteed to every citizen.
Yeah if you live in the capital. Once you are outside of that area you are nothing but, a fucking serf.

Communism is dysgenics

>from each according to their ability
Smart/Strong people = More productive ($$$$$)
Dumb/Weak people = Less productive ($)
>to each according to their need
Smart/Strong people need = ($$$)
Dumb/Weak people = ($$$)

This is a disincentive for hard work. Why work harder if it is all totally equalized?
This is a subsidy for low IQ people, we are not all equal and should not pretend to be. You are stealing the social market advantage that is usually awarded to hardworking people and giving it to the people who don't deserve it.

However, you must avoid falling for the false dichotomy. "Capitalism" is not the answer either, it incentivizes globalism (more profits) and betrayal of one's own people. Take the 3rd path.

youtube.com/watch?v=8vMypCinkRk

youtube.com/watch?v=_r9Z-hTn1r4

My Cambodian relatives would love to meet you!

Something about treat you and other communists to Cambodian style hospitality.

But china has shit gdp/capita compared to "dumber" western countries.

Kulaks deserved it? Seriously though I hate gulags even though I joke about them.

Listen to Jordan Peterson's lecture to get an idea of how communism/moral relativism/pathological egalitarianism is a corrupt ideology because it tries to remove differences between outcomes (which means enforcing sameness, which means destroying hierarchies, which means destroying the principle foundation of mankind's evolved moral structure and value system, which basically means the death of civilization.)

On the economic side, I recommend Thomas Sowell's genre-defining book Basic Economics. You can listen to it here for free:
youtube.com/watch?v=dQiBD-crrvA

tiny, pitiful tl;dr: Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources that have alternative uses. Resources aren't infinite. Any given resource like skilled labor or wood can be used in many ways. We must efficiently allocate these scarce resources to different uses and to different places, so that they can be of most "value". Value is subjective. There isn't any set definition of how much X is worth and how to best use it. "Value" is what someone else (NOT YOU) is willing to pay for X thing. The free market collectively agrees on the most valuable uses for X resource by deciding how much they'll pay for it.

Communism has no good way to assign value or "hierarchy" to scarce resources. All uses are equally valid, so you don't know the best/most efficient use of any given resource. You end up with one dude or a group of dudes guessing what should go where, and how much. Which is bad. 7 billion people constantly making subjective value judgements is much better than one guy or group of guys deciding what should go where. Supply and demand, yo.

There's loads more. LOADS. Marxism is so backwards it's insane to me that there are any people left who still believe in it.

>lenin

Read The Gulag Archipelago

>I'm a Marxist (not the idpol type)
I know you're now trying to ride the anti-PC wave, but don't fool yourself /leftpol/, Marxism is the root of modern idpol. Class warfare and pandering to the workers IS id politics.

What, geniuses? How much of the population fit into that category?

And communism probably has something to do with it. Look at countries that are genetically closely related to them like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. They have economies on par with Western countries.

Equality is a lie.

That is all you need to know.
Communism can never work because people are unequal. To make them equal would be wrong AND detrimental.

People aren't equal in skill, correct, but they are equal in fundamental rights.

Your version of communism where people either take the position of serf, peasant, citizen and upperclass would never work. But that's your version.

Here you can find all info you need dear sheepbro
youtube.com/watch?v=3arYamUaQU4

I have been thinking about this issue and it's part of the reason why i'm suspicious about the validity of Marxism.
Kay

If you're actually interested in the other side, I direct you first and foremost to the works of Murray Rothbard. He distills Misesian economic theory into a more palatable form than Mises' original works.

It's a big one, but link related is the definitive refutation of socialism from the Austrian School. Also comes in audiobook form if you're an illiterate island-nigger.

>Any material or arguments that you deem proof socialism/communism does not work would be welcome
Any material or arguments that you deem proof socialism/communism does work would be welcome.

youtube.com/watch?v=nrT0kBeld3Q

Fucking shit.

mises.org/library/man-economy-and-state-power-and-market

Listen or read that thing if you haven't already.

Thanks i'll be sure to look into this

Alt right ideaology is very much about white prols, the difference is no jews

How the fuck are you a commie in New Zealand. You know the farmers will murder you all when you try to redistribute their land right?

That is the dumbest shit I will read on Sup Forums today.

Being a marxist is Aus or NZ is easy, it's in actual communist and socialist countries where it is not.

Kinda why i'm suspicious about communism at the moment
I will

>have felt the creeping suspicion that i'm wrong
That's called common sense it's trying to reason with you.

If you took everybody on earth and made them equal in terms of money(or not) or assets it would still flow right back to the people who are successful now. Unless of course you're punishing success, which Marxists always do, and that's why it's a regressive ideology that promotes the weak.

SSSR = dead
Yugoslavia = dead
Cuba = DEAD

Do i need to continue u filthy communist?

People who actually work don't like communism. That shit's for kids and aging baby boomer intellectuals to sit around and fantasize about how they would run things while everyone else toils away. That's what it's about. Now about the workers, but about them being in charge. There is no vengeance as terrible as the vengeance a coward plots in the dark of his heart. A bunch of cocksucking beta males having power fantasies about lining people that bullied them in high school up against the wall and executing them, and then lording over who is left.

Only if you want to

Oh i forgot to say that Hitler did nothing wrong and his regime works but there are wrong people doing it like check EU.

There is no country, no victory or nation without blood and soil !!!!!!

Look mate i will give you the straight run down, Farmers own their means of production they are as free as you can realistically get from the capitalist system that forces everyone into wage slavery. They are also the most racist nationalist blue collar laboring sons of bitches on the planet. It is a paradox for communists they support laborers but hate farmers. My personal experience is that farming exposes you to the rules nature and nature gives no fucks for equality.

marxism, at its core, assumes that the responsibility for output is equally that of the workers and the owners. this seems obvious right? if the labourer did not work, the owners machines would lay idle, correct?

But what if output is negative? suppose a company goes under, and makes serious losses. since the workers are just as responsible for the output, they should make those losses too... and this is where we run into problems.

you see responsibility is easy to share when things are easy, but not when we're going down.

so the correct model for worker-owner relationships is not one based on unionized strikes. Striking, by its very nature, reveals that the owners of capital have more to lose than the worker, therefore the core assumption of marxism, of shared, equal responsibility, is false.

the correct model, in my view, involves decreasing the wedge (the gap between what the employer pays for a worker, and what the worker actually receives, via tax, overheads, etc) so that workers are payed in closer proportion to their actual value. you see, over-regulation, taxation, social-security etc are monies that the worker cannot utilise, but still has to be included in the worker's effective pay (from the employer perspective).

a better model, imo, would also included company shares as included in wage. these shares are of immediate value to the worker, incentivize both hard work and stable company growth, and protect worker interests in the case of merges/takeovers. something to think about i guess.

Another issue is the inherent totalitarianism in a centrally planned economy. The economy is made of people voluntarily exchanging value with one another. To centrally plan an economy, you need total control of the economy in order to attempt directing it. Which means total control of the people that make up the economy.

Which means that if one person disagrees even slightly with communism and tries to do their own thing, communism collapses — because someone freely deciding to exchange something, or save something for themselves threatens socialism/communism itself. So, any dissent at all can destroy a communist regime. And because of that, the people in charge must be swift and brutal in the suppression of dissent.

That's how communism killed over 110,000,000 fucking people. (More than the combat deaths for the entire 20th century. Communist ideology has killed more people in 100 years than war itself.)

>Venezuela
>North Korea
>Germany
Ok i've had it enough

Former Marxist here what is making you question your ideology? Maybe I can shed some light and help you out.

...

I'm interested in hearing how you fell for the commie meme and what snapped you out of it.

I second this.

>in closer proportion to their actual value.
Their actual value is precisely what they are paid. Get out of here with your LTV nonsense.

A monopoly (which communism is) can't determine market value

communism has never worked. Not even once. Isn't that enough proof that is just doesn't work?

/thread

Another /thread

Could it not do so by observing buy/sell prices of goods in other countries?

So it would need to use another system as reference meaning it doesn't work

Marxists dont believe in currency

he means the cut that the government takes is taken out of worker's wages, not company profits, effectively making the worker earn less than he would otherwise be paid. It's a kind of indirect pricefixing. You get more of what you subsidize, less of what you tax. The government is taxing wages.

I'd say that 12 years of stability is not a large enough sample size to conclude that natsoc is the ideal. Socialist policies + ethnonationalism is still socialist policies.

Books:

Karl Marx and the Close of his System

Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth

The end, yo.

Catalonia

ex-commie here

same as with facism, doesn't work
but atleast it survived longer before self destructing

these authoritarian ideologies have a thing for self destruction, they have little respect for other opinions, so they tend to go up in flames because of disagreement with other groups, or within themselves

they think humanity is a monolith

I fell for it unironically through memes, a gateway drug if you will. It snowballed from there. But the people around me I consider to be intelligent all hate communism and I have some issues with the ideology such as the forced redistribution of farms as described here I kind of feel like if a bunch of people oppose it so strongly, then don't force them. other minor things also bother me but most of all, the only reason i'm asking for insight is because I never let the blanket of ideology completely smother me, I always remembered to never let ideology take control of my life.

I liked communism because it gave me a community, I felt like I was different from everyone ideologically and that I wanted to push for a greater good. Nothing wrong with scarifies and I thought that the class struggle was the driving force of history.

What snapped me out of it was mainly at first seeing a lot of confirmation bias very suddenly. I was think wow this is good but why is it that all the sudden my extreme ends of politics are becoming so wildly accepted? That got me thinking and asking questions and soon I was finding that the class struggle wasn't at all the motivating force of history, that it was much more nuanced then I previously believed. I also started to dislike the SJW that were using Marxists principles of class but applying it to inter-sectionalism it put me off and made me wonder if I was doing what was right.

Then my friend got arrested and that sorta shocked my foundation. He was going to blow some place up with a homemade bomb and I at that point said yeah no I gotta find another way. So I started reading the classics and found myself agree less with Marx's premise on class and equality. Sure he isn't entirely wrong that capitalism can be destructive, but he missed that the biggest thing that is hurt by it is culture and not labors. That at least is my story on it. There more stuff that pissed me off but thats the jist.

Capitalism is the ultimate democratic system. Everytime you pay for something, you make a vote.

>a better model, imo, would also included company shares as included in wage. these shares are of immediate value to the worker, incentivize both hard work and stable company growth, and protect worker interests in the case of merges/takeovers. something to think about i guess.
Some companies do that in Denmark. No force involved, they just do it, because if the reasons you gave. Other companies do not, for other reasons. As long as we can agree that you don't have to force companies to act that way, it is all good. And yes, I am talking about industrial companies giving the worker on the floor some shares in the company.
No. National socialism is still socialism. And Hitlers economy was a debt based economy that required war to keep thriveing.
No system will bring in utopia. None. If you want to live in paradise then kill your self, because you will not find it in this world. Not liberalism, not socialism, not communism and not nationalism. There is no paradise on this earth, never have been and never will be.

youtube.com/watch?v=4343dv0jOUI

The most dangerous people are the ones chasing utopian fantasies that will never come about.
archive.is/dBehg

democracy and the economic system are completely unrelated

That's ridiculous. Nothing in the world tries to be exclusive like that, not even communism.

Thus why I feel so strongly about libertarianism. Nothing is forced upon you. If a bunch of guys want to create a commune that trades intellectual property (like say, software engineering) for goods, even someone who disagrees with their philosophy can still trade with them because the philosophy simply does not affect them.

Communism is a logical first political ideology because most families function as a commune.

I'm from Belarus, one of the last soviet style countries in the world. It's an awful place because of the ruling style alone.
Dirt poor and with zero chances for a better future despite having open borders and a prime transit location.

Marxism is wrong, but unregulated capitalism is also wrong.

The 10 happiest nations in the world all have a system of social-democracy, which is a capitalistic economy with social benefits to the poor and the middle class

It's not that it doesn't work per se, it's that
it never HAS worked. The problem is not the system so much as human nature, communism / socialism is in direct conflict with human nature. Capitalism works because it is dynamic and flexible, albeit flawed currently (corporatism). National Socialism could definitely work and would have if it had not been a reactionary movement and war, etc.

Here is the study:
bbc.com/news/world-39325206

Social Democracy is a well balanced recipe that is proven to work

>I never let the blanket of ideology completely smother me, I always remembered to never let ideology take control of my life.

Good man.

fucking hell. You came close to becoming a terrorist.

Liberty and equality are antithetical.
Communism and its lesser cousin, socialism, are therefore morally wrong.

If you want to discuss efficiency, just open a history textbook and examine the colossal failure that is every leftist economy.

No they are not.

Capitalism = economic democracy as every individual person decide what his money is being spend for.

Socialism/Communism = undemocratic because the goverment say what the money is being spend for. In the best case you can at least vote for the party in which direction the money is being spend.

Denmark has gotten poorer as a nation ever since the 60's where our massive government welfare started to kick in. The general iq has also fallen and the general testosterone has fallen. We gotten poorer dumber and weaker ever since the 60's. I'm not saying you can't have some benefits, Denmark has always protected the weakest, even when we had Kings with the ultimate power they still did not treat the poor like shit. But that is more about the danes as an ethnicity then about political system.

Equal opportunity is not the same as equal results

Right now America has socialism, but only for the rich. that's why your country keeps bailing out wall street billionaires when they bankrupt

Certainly doesn't work here.

And your proposed solution is more socialist policies.

>because the philosophy simply does not affect them
Not if they are communists. It is an inherently expansionary ideology. If you think commies will be satisfied with sitting quietly in their communes, you don't know them very well. Global revolution is the name of the game. That is why it is ethically permissible to remove them. It is an act of self-defense against credible and vocal threats of violence.

>DUmSGPCh
Forced communism is unethical because it involves theft.
Voluntary communism doesn't exist because it's inefficient.

He conflates corporatism with capitalism. What do you expect? Pic related. It's old as hell, but whatever.