Why has islam not had their version of the reformation/counter reformation/vatican 2?

Why has islam not had their version of the reformation/counter reformation/vatican 2?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_Faith
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_(USA)#Demographics
youtube.com/watch?v=CC4TuYrSNJs
youtube.com/watch?v=guYMAycJgYA
youtube.com/watch?v=UUx9NzzTz-0
pastebin.com/gWpEWyD4
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Reform_Movement
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

It did. They are called Salafis. Just because you don't like the reformation doesn't mean there wasn't one.

They have you dumb nigger, it's called Wahabbism and Salafism.

You can reform the structure of power all you want, it won't change the fact of who Muhammad was or what he did

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_Faith

Lutherans weren't always the most liberal sect either.

In few hundred years if Islam is still relevant wahabis will be marrying gays and blessing transgenders too.

I mean like the Christian ones got rid of bad things like Simonry and indulgences. Have muslims get rid of the bad stuff too

I think though that I'm Christianity the reformation got rid of some of the things greedy people had tacked onto the religion, like indulgences. As far as I know this terrorism stuff is directly condoned by the Koran so idk how they would reform it away?

They did. The terrorist groups all use a literal interpretation of the Koran and are extremely fundamentalist.

This is the difference between Christianity and Islam. When Christians took religion into their own hands they spread principles of democracy and human rights because those are key facets of Christianity. When Muslims took Islam into their own hands after the fall of the Caliphs they became violently oppressive and backwards because the Koran was written by a warlord to benefit desert war tribes.

Actually mainline (read: liberal) Lutheran denominations like the ELCA are dying rapidly around the world, the only ones who are experiencing growth are conservative denominations like the LCMS which absolutely does not affirm same-sex acts or bless transgenderism.

I mean the problem is that this shit is inherent to the ideology. The reason the Reformation happened theologically was because Luther put forward an accurate exegetical reading of Paul's letter to the Romans and Galatians that was highly compelling and convincing. How are you going to do that with the Qur'an when it doesn't have a Romans or Galatians equivalent?

*in Christianity

>Have muslims get rid of the bad stuff too
That's what they're trying to do. Unfortunately, for (You), you are the "bad stuff".

Because we are expected to change as opposed to them changing.

>see shitpost about lutherans marrying gays
>check flag, not a leaf
>look it up

Fuck me. Seriously what is left? Russian Orthodox, here I come.

ISIS etc. basically is the islamic reformation in action. they're trying to strip away the layers of complexity that accumulated in islamic society in order to get back to what they perceive was the original state of muhammad and the first generations of muslims, like how luther's underlying desire was to restore something like the original pre-dogmatic church of god.

>islam became violent after the caliphates

Yeah, the arabs spread islam from spain to thailand by peaceful methods like killing everyone who wasn't muslim

Because of incest and retardation.

Denominations which affirm same-sex relationships and marriages are rapidly eroding actually, the PC(USA) has lost over half of its membership (1.5 million people) since 1984. Only ones who are growing are religious "Nones" and conservative Evangelicals.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_(USA)#Demographics

>after the fall of the Caliphs

You do realize Islam has been converting by the sword since day one, right? Your narrative does sound a bit like the NatGeo special on Islam though.

They did
The bad guys won

The Reformation increased violence and terrorism all over Europe as Catholics and Prodistants fought, and governments chose sides. The violence was so bad that European pilgrims fled to the New World and created a new country with religious freedom as a main element.

Ahmadiyya and Sufism are a thing, they just aren't widespread. The problem is that Islam is much more resistant to reformation than Christianity apparently was, or at least is taking longer, and the sects that have reformed are extremely small and not big relative to the total religion.

The Quran is viewed as the literal word of God, as opposed to the Bible which is seen as divinely inspired but still accepted to be written and edited by people. There just isn't as much room for interpretation

12 brands of Islam, only one degenerate catholic church

Because, in muslim countries the head of state is also head of the states church, while in Holy Roman Empire princes, and Emperor needed to answer to head of religion, The Pope, and as they wanted more political freedom they accepted the reformation, and joined in. (in christianity there were similar movements before, but they were persecuted as heretics. meanwhile in muslim countries reformists are still being prosecuted)

I was thinking about nailing some new guidelines to a mosque as well...namely, "You have ten days to get out of my city"

Listen to Dad. We're witnessing the Islamic reformation.

attach to brick. throw brick through window

You got it a bit wrong
A religion can change the principles that predate them only so much
Christianity is not better, the Greco-Roman values that predate it kept them on a leash
Look at Latin-American Catholicism or Black-Africa Islam
Completely different than the European and ME counterparts and they are supposed to be the same doctrine

People in ME were always authoritarian and followed personality cults (see Egyptians Mesopotamians Persians etc) while European people had a more egalitarian approach (from Republics to Councils of Clan leaders or Nobles)

The Reformation was violent a.f.

And Christians did the same thing. Protestants were the ones who changed because they abided by the Bible rather than a corrupt institution.

It is happening right now. But without a central leader like Catholics it seems like chaos. One thing the pope is good for is toneing down extremism (modern popes). That makes it very hard for extremist to come about without also leaving the church (opus dei being as extreme as it gets.
The fact that the New Testament needs to be twisted to rationalize violence vs the explicit call to violence in the Quran will lead to continued violence with in Islam.
Christianity explicitly says go spread the word but if the don't want it shake the sand from your Sandles and leave.
Islam on the other hand says take their heads when you leave the unbelievers.
Violence has been committed in the name of both but it's really easy to justify it in Islam.

Reformation was about literalism/sola scriptura so isis fanatics are the closest to your christian protestants/munster rebels.
Deal with it.

Race shapes religion.
Don't expect inbred sand people to turn into a healthy peaceful society.
Also see african christians.

Google Bahá'í Faith and Ahmadiyya

The reformation was actually a good thing. The Catholic Church at the time was too powerful and corrupt. It forced the church to get back to its core and out of overt empire building. I am catholic by the way.
I still use Austria empire in Total war to remake Europe into the catholic empire and retake Constantinople.

Yeah just like niggers would fly to the stars if whitey wouldn't keep them down.

There one currently happening called Quranism, it's a liberal sola scriptura version of Islam that is currently spreading among muslims especially the younger generation but it's still a minority.

After Luther nailed his thesis he nailed Katherina von Bora. He could not live without sex....

There is one currently happening called Quranism, it's a liberal sola scriptura version of Islam that is currently spreading among muslims especially the younger generation but it's still a minority. You should look it up it's really interesting.

excuse my accidental double post

Islam is more political and rule heavy like Judaism, they have less scripture that can be interpreted in more than one way.

You mean the "reformation" where they decided logic and reason was inferior to retarded mysticism, thus ending your own golden age?
You come from 500 years of inbred, child-fucking, cockroach lineage.

The Quran is actually more liberal and vague than the Islam that is practiced currently, sharia law is mainly derived from the hadith, which is a large collection of traditions and scriptures which actually shape mainstream islam. The hadith are the talmud of Islam.

>liberal sola scriptura

Ever read the Quran?

Sola scriptura still would breed extremism. The same BS Axiom Luther based his church on. But guess what - you cant find "sola scriptura" anywhere in the scripture. There is no teaching one could deduce said Axiome out of.

Got their fucking reformation right here

A whole field's worth

Well, no killing apostates, no attacking innocent civilians, sounds fine actually. You should maybe just look it up and listen to what these people themselves are saying. The most extreme thing there is in the Quran would be flogging for adultery and cutting a thief's hand.
Thats a million times better than wahhabism imo.

Christianity has a built in church and state separator. Give to Caesars what is caesars....
it has not always been this way but it blends much better with a secular society than Islam or Judaism.

Arabs are subhuman.

Worth watching, that guy there risked his life:
youtube.com/watch?v=CC4TuYrSNJs

Database for information about Quranism:
quransmessage.com

The Quran starts liberal but get more violent over time. Muhammad himself was the same, he is considered a perfect person to live by yet he did terrible things. In other of Islam to properly co-exist like most other religions can core beliefs will have to be dropped.

True and it needs a reform, but a good one, not like the salafist movement.

>But guess what - you cant find "sola scriptura" anywhere in the scripture. There is no teaching one could deduce said Axiome out of.

Read Barth you dumb illiterate faggot.

>Putting thought into and imparting knowledge in a Sup Forums post instead of screeching about how the kikes are responsible for X undesirable thing
lmao enjoy your single (you)

You might want to explain that to Gregory VII.

>Why has islam not had their version of the reformation/counter reformation/vatican 2?

watch these:
youtube.com/watch?v=guYMAycJgYA
youtube.com/watch?v=UUx9NzzTz-0

it did, but it was killed by the hanbalis (salfists).

revive Mutazilla

Luther was trialed and left free
Somebody who would challenge Islam would get the good ol' scimtar beheading

that's why

Because they banished and isolated Averroes.

The Quran per se does not have a chronological order. Even when the Quran calls for war it does so in the context of self defence. It's not as bad on it's own but only becomes dangerous when you add in the hadith. Similar to how the Jews corrup the message of the bible with their talmud. Yes, they believe that Muhammad (the way he was believed to be according to the hadith) was perfect, when in fact they do not portray someone who should be emulated. These things recorded were terrible indeed, if they ever happened that way, considering the historical unreliability of the hadith. bretty funny because they make up most of the laws and practices of mainstream islam

revive mutazilism

Mutazilism+Quranism=No more Wahhabism and terrorism, easy as that and the internet will do the job all on it's on. Everything will happen to it's due time.

They did, their Martin Luther was Ayatollah Khomeni.

You see a progression from weak band of followers to an army. At first he did not want to piss off the more powerful Jews and christians. At one time praying towards Jerusalem and adopting similar dietary rules. But once he gained enough power to fight he went all ape shit. What it says makes much more sense when you see it from a progression of weakness to being powerful.

It's harram/forbidden to edit or discount the teachings of the prophet or the word of god in the religion of islam.

The Salafi ideology has been more less high-jacked by Al-Qaeda and ISIS, there was a time when it was considered the equivalent of Hasidic Judaism. Salafism was never intended to be a purely warmongering ideology. Whabbaism however is kinda like that though those dudes are on another level.

You know nothing about history, right?
You know that the christian salafy were the luterans?
Bloodseaker beasts that burnt women and everyone they thought having pact with devils? (catholic never did that, that was your invenction)

Because the west is(was) based in the civilisational concept that there is an absolute truth but we don't quite know what it is. While Islam is based on the internal and external subjugation to god, who defines the only absolute truth, through struggle.

It isn't in there way of thinking to change a belief system because you personally don't think it reaches truth.

It's a delusion to think a reformation like we've had will or could happen.

I got this idea from coutercurrents btw

mutazilism rejects the idea of literally taking the quran and completely rejects hadith.

It will be then end of wahabism, hopefully leading to the 2nd golden age

*their
sorry bongs

>Ayatollah Khomeni

HELL NO.
Martin Luther was Al Bagdadi.
Study history.

i don't know anything about this, otherwise i'd put some effort into a reply

Salafism prepares the mindset for sects like Wahhabism. Those dude can be fucking crazy, and many even have sympathies for ISIS.

They have. But when you start with shit, you end with shit.

Mohammed basically tried to make the christian faith into a literal state, with Islamic law as its ultimate law. Now you can't have a society where different people follow different laws now can't you? Thats why they will always be violent, simply because an islamist can't live fully under a non islamic rule, same as a communist or a fascist.

>Have muslims get rid of the bad stuff too
they're trying, latest attempt was the Ariana Grande concert.

This was merely a struggle between 2 successors. Not a fundamental questioning of a institutional faith from within based on principle

Islam is a religion based upon the teachings of Muhammad and the writings of the Koran and other complimentary books. This why it is, and always will be, a disgusting pool of dumpster juice.

Please read:
pastebin.com/gWpEWyD4

Some are trying to do it and the movement is called Quranism.
The "bad stuff" are the hadith, which justify rape, paedophilia, terrorism, stoning apostates and what not.

Islam is shaped to be used as a nation's law, thus all people need to adhere to it. Thats why those fucks are always violent. They are the same as communists or fascist, they can get by in other societies but if they take hold, you lose your head trying to follow anything different.

>It's harram/forbidden to edit or discount the teachings of the prophet or the word of god in the religion of islam.

I love how the judaic religions :
> Judiasm
> Islam
> Christianity

All say it's forbidden to edit/discount their religious text...
> Cause god only sent prophets to the earth in the narrow time that your religion was formed.
> Lets pretend there were no politics behind the words put in the religious text
> Lets pretend there aren't lies
> Lets pretend we didn't borrow 1/2 this material from previous religions and reword it

Because they believe that what their shitskin illiterate pedophile cryptokike """prophet""" mud-ham-mad (piss be upon him) said is unchangeable words of Allah and that Koran is a exact copy of heavenly Koran and changing it is a blasphemy. And You cant change pisslam, unless you change Koran

It's happening. And they need your help Sup Forums. And these are real Muslims too. Not some evangelical hick from Florida.

And thats why the religion itself (Islam) has to be changed.

Perhaps they outlawed changing it because they themselves changed previous religions, so their words would be eternal law.
Cheeky bastards.

Are they quranists?

Funny it contradicted all the early christians

>Mafia Oligarhox
ebin

You cannot change it, only eradicate it. It is in its genesis supposed to be used as a nation's ultimate law.

Idk. I just heard of them on Sam Harris' podcast. All I know is they're trying to deradicalize people.

They've already gone full sola scriptura
except shias (and even then only in a broad not completely hierarchical way) they lack a central organization
What's there to add to make them more protestant-like?

Barth contradicted the entire Reformed theology

"The organization was founded on December 4, 2015 when the founders read a "Declaration of Reform" at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. The founders then went to the Saudi-affiliated Islamic Center of Washington[1] and posted the Declaration of Reform on the doors of mosque "denouncing violent jihad, rejecting Islamic statism and opposing the 'ideology of violent Islamic extremism.'"

From their Wikipedia page

"The organization was founded on December 4, 2015 when the founders read a "Declaration of Reform" at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. The founders then went to the Saudi-affiliated Islamic Center of Washington[1] and posted the Declaration of Reform on the doors of mosque "denouncing violent jihad, rejecting Islamic statism and opposing the 'ideology of violent Islamic extremism.'"[2]"

LOL NICE

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Reform_Movement

Muhamad Luther hasnt told them to quit fucking kids yet just like Catholics who never followed Martin Luthers protestant reformation still fuck kids.

not really sola scriptura, they also have extra-quranic sources and traditions from which most mainstream islamic laws and practices are derived from

(you)

Noice. But this sentiment is growing among Muslims in the US. They're starting to get angry at the terrorists. But the only major roadblock are the saudis and the Pakistanis.

This, although ISIS heads are Mossad.

>Why has islam not had their version of the reformation/counter reformation/vatican 2?
>falling for the "enlightenment" pseudo-historical narrative

"The Reformation" didn't "fix" Christianity, or even make it less violent (intentionally). Quite the opposite.
The thing about Islam is that the doctrines and attitudes of "authentic" Islam and revivalist Wahabbism are in line with ur-Protestantism (with which Americans educated entirely in meme-history would be familiar with through the "Puritans"), insofar as Christianity cannot entirely degenerate to Islam status without ceasing to be Christianity.

What you types want is an "enlightenment" Islam combined with the fallout of Protestantism: an atheistic takeover and bloodbath, and a culturally-enforced indifferentism and disunity.
Baathist types are the closest to that, and US-Israeli-Saudi joint foreign policy undermined all of that.

Oh snap.

this is their reformation, and this was their Martin Luther

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

>their X is our Y
No. You stupid fucks.