High ideals of virtue and goodness may be reaction formations against primitive objectcathexesrather than realistic values that are capable of being lived up to. Romantic notions of chastity and purity may mask crude sexual desires, altruism may hide selfishness, and piety may conceal sinfulness.
What do you truly fear? Do you secretly desire it?
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The concept of reaction formation has been used to explain responses to external threats as well as internal anxieties. In the phenomenon described asStockholm Syndrome, a hostage or kidnap victim 'falls in love' with the feared and hated person who has complete power over them.
Better question.
Should you not set lofty goals and set yourself about achieving them?
Also:
>If there is no extant God and no extant gods, no good and no evil, no right and no wrong, no meaning and no purpose: if there are no values that are inherently valuable; no justice that is ultimately justifiable; no reasoning that is fundamentally rational, then there is no sane way to choose between science, religion, racism, philosophy, nationalism, art, conservatism, nihilism, liberalism, surrealism, fascism, asceticism, egalitarianism, subjectivism, elitism, ismism. If reason is incapable of deducing ultimate, non-arbitrary human ends, and nothing can be judged as ultimately more important than anything else, then freedom is equal to slavery; cruelty is equal to kindness; love is equal to hate; war is equal to peace; dignity is equal to contempt; destruction is equal to creation; life is equal to death and death is equal to life.
― Mitchell Heisman, Suicide Note
Sounds like a shitty pydological excuse not to improve yourself
"Temperance. Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation."
"Silence. Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation."
"Order. Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time."
"Resolution. Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve."
"Frugality. Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing."
"Industry. Lose no time; be always employ'd in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions."
"Sincerity. Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and, if you speak, speak accordingly."
"Justice. Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty."
"Moderation. Avoid extremes; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve."
"Cleanliness. Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, clothes, or habitation."
"Tranquility. Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable."
"Chastity. Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dullness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation."
"Humility. Imitate Jesus and Socrates."
work on one and only one each week "leaving all others to their ordinary chance. makes you a better man contributing greatly to your success and happiness.
Fascinating, thank you both for the contribution
pay attention to the excuses you're making right now.
To me this a coping mechanism in situation where survival is in question. By showing empathy to the kidnappers plight, the individual is subconsciously hoping the kidnapper will see them as an equal in the plight. This would, in the subconscious mind of the hostage, make it harder for the kidnapper to do harm to the hostage.
Have there ever been studies on which hostage fall into stockholm syndrom?
It seems like those who are less aware of their subconscious would be more susceptible, if Jung's theory of the shadow self is correct.
I wanted to make the world a better place, because I secretly hate how the world seems to be going mad right now.
A-am I right user?
Possibly but not any I am aware of. I would agree that it seems individuals cognizant of the somatic manifestations of subconscious dilemmas would be more aware of why they were behaving in such a way, and possibly have more control but I'm not sure. The mind is a powerful thing. Jung couldn't stop himself from going mad but he documented it intensely.
I want Isis to go away, b-because I secretly want to behead people who have different views with me.
I h-hate bad people b-because I secretly w-want to be held down and MOLE-molested by bad boys.
Is that truly why you want to change the world? I thought I was altruistic until I realized I mainly wanted people to view me as such. It made me feel like a real phony and I am trying to reconcile my motivation to something true to myself. Whatever that may be.
I think the reaction formation mechanism argument in this case, if you were saying anti isis rhetoric, would be that you desired the freedom that they allow themselves.
>until I realized I mainly wanted people to view me as such
This is what motivates most people I've encountered. Their self worth is derived from how others see them. On the other hand, if you truly don't care how others see you, your self worth comes from within, but it becomes difficult to build relationships and keep friends. You end up coming off as totally self centered and arrogant. A balancing act is needed to be a funtioning individual. If you find that line, let me know.
I think there is more middle ground than you think. Culture is Humans environment and it makes sense people want to be perceived as this and that because men/women find certain traits desirable and we are hardwired to mate. However when you lose sight of what it means to be you and you sacrifice so much of yourself for the approval of others, I imagine you will be a very fractured individual. That being said there are commonly held beliefs for a reason.
I'm just not going to be some fake tosser who is "good" because that is what mommy said is right. I need to figure it out for myself. Nobody really knows much at all.
>Nobody really knows much at all.
Very true. Do you have kids yet?
Your kids will look at you like you are some kind of superman, almost god-like. This will fill you with worth. It feels so good, you will go out of your way to provide for them so you can continue feeling this worth. It gives purpose to your life.
>only when you give life, then you become what you are.
Not to be seen as altruistic, I don't really care what people think of me. I want to make the world a better place because I don't want there to be victims anymore (or at least lessen their numbers), I believe that humanity has the potential to fix its shit and progress, it's just going to take a lot of will from everyone; and a lot of blood from those wo would fight it.
I don't like their 'freedom', I find their actions destructive for those around them. They cause more suffering to this world, and I believe the world already has enough problems as it is, so isis should just fuck off.
No not yet but I certainly look forward to the day. The thought constantly makes me strive to be the best possible version of myself so I can be prepared for that responsibility.
>What do you truly fear? Do you secretly desire it?
Of course I do, it's what makes me human. Abandonment of such things, knowing where they lead, makes me virtuous. Succumbing to such desires makes me a sinner, and thus, in a perpetual battle over the trajectory of my soul.
Acts define us.
Good and Evil are too shallow a notion to be understood, but Detrimental vs. Beneficial should be taught in its place.
I agree, the world is full of unnecessary pain. But I don't see a way around it getting worse before it gets better.
Trees won't grow strong without a heavy gust pushing against them, that's good wisdom.
What do you consider Unnecessary pain, because I believe everything has a good reason for existing, whether we see good in it or not.
What do you make of intention?
Then in my humble opinion, you are on the correct path.
Depends on the outcome.
I could say that intent to harm is better described as misdirected inner conflict. Or an illness maybe.
Try seeing humanity as blood cells, then see how we treat each other.
A police state becomes a horrible virus that causes the white blood cells to become hyperactive and turn on the red.
If you can pull back and try to visualize the bigger picture, things can become more clear.
To me it is pain in excess that cannot be learned from and does not help us grow. But from your outlook it would seem everything can be learned from, but then why do people separate the wheat from the chaff? Because one is, apparently, inherently more desirable.
Thanks mate I really appreciate that
>but then why do people separate the wheat from the chaff?
Immune system kicking in.
And no, all pain can be learned from. Just depends how receptive we are to putting aside the blockages that prevent it.
We are our own worst enemy in that regard.
>cannot
And i can't stress this enough.
There is no Cannot, only Will Not.
So an act in and of itself is without merit until the outcome has been realized?
You're welcome.
I'll leave you with something from the Hindu epic poem, the Ramayana.
In it Rama says the truth isn't there to hurt us but rather to give us joy.
If we are walking the path of righteousness in the light of day, then when confronted with the light of the truth we rejoice because it reminds us why we chose to walk this path in the first place.
But if we are walking the path of sin, in utter darkness, the light of the truth will burn our eyes, our minds will reel, our souls will cry out and we will justify every denial of the truth in order to cling to our wickedness, because it's easier than admitting we are evil.
I'm not Hindu, but I can't deny the wisdom of that assessment. Keep searching for the truth.
What about torture? Burning people alive? You can "learn" what it feels like to be cooked alive and skin slough off the bone, but I can do without that knowledge.
Or unrealized,sure. But it's important to note that by acting, you are forcing your will on the world around you. It's not about how it effects you, but the world you live in.
I'm doing my best here to drive the focus away from egocentric thinking, and more towards universal.
We don't recognize problems in the world unless we know they exist in ourselves first. We have to be able to internalize it in order to understand it.
I'm also drunk.
Same here, I believe humanity can fix its shit if everyone worked towards that goal, but I find that situation impossible as there will always be differences and intolerance. Only a revolution (either scientific, industrial or political) could change this stalemate swiftly, and even then battles will still be fought.
I don't see the benefit in that, but if you broaden the scope, there is much to understand.
Pull back from the specifics and focus more on knowing what it's like to be persecuted and attacked.
Hell, the act of being burned alive is more effective a learning tool to the people watching it happen than it is to the person being murdered.
That's fantastic. When put like that you can more clearly see what path others take too; how they respond when confronted with what is seemingly true.
rationality and understanding
everything else will follow
>When put like that you can more clearly see what path others take too
Congratulations! Welcome to the fold, brother. See the truth, apply it to the truth, and you can see the future.
If that's mega confusing, do some reading up on the mono-myth and the archetype. Jung is a great place to start.
>when everything you do isn't driven by spite
Honest observation, there's a lot of moral-cucks on the right wing. People who pick a side because they have a hero complex and don't realize they're just virtue signaling at themselves.
That's a pretty astute observation. What you're describing sounds similar to the Jungian shadow.
Is this the stoner thread?
Hehe, i just got to the Jung point in my post right after the one you responded to.
I see it as cowarding victims parading as heroes. Nobody wants to see someone as a cowarding victim, not even themselves. On this board you see more cv's parading as tyrants.
Clearly my nigga
Its the sickening inversion of truth.
Rather than individuals working towards a common goal, its group-think working towards chaos (with the Antifa types) and group-think working towards hyper authoritarianism in the little tyrants.
Not sure if you have seen him floating around but Jordan Peterson is someone I'm quite fond of who covers archetypes heavily. He mostly rehashes philosophers but is very digestible and knowledgeable. I would recommend his youtube lectures on personality psychology. Especially deconstructing The Lion King with Jungian observations.
It's interesting watching in-groups morph to satisfy other members until the collective ideology shifts into something new.
Certainly sick but fascinating too.
I can't count the number of hours i've spent with Dr. Peterson's videos. I used to see him as the next Joseph Campbell, but now i think he's transcended that pretty well.
He's Campbell + Thoreau.
See his archetype and you will see his inevitable future.
He's begging for it.
We all unctuously want to come to a big consensus. That's not a bad thing.
The crappy part is when we start to shut out the opposition because it flies in the face of our failed ideology.
You can see this all over the place, in the form of "what color shirt is Sup Forums approved?" or "is X degenerate behavior?"
All equally as mindless as the opposition ideology.
Dr. Campbell was a pleasure to listen to. I'm not familiar with Thoreau, any recommendations for my virgin encounter with his work?
Henry David Thoreau.
American Superhero.
Walden Pond and such.
He said "fuck the system" and built a cabin in the woods.
Read read read!
I suppose that's true. Yeah that's so dangerous, like this girl didn't want to talk with me because I'm a Libertarian and she was a socialist. Like why close the dialogue? Do you only want to listen and speak with people who agree with you? I seek out criticism and people that convince me otherwise and tell me why I'm wrong. It's how you form a more complete world view.
I'll read Walden first then
Its very easy to fall into the group-think mentality when you feel extreme pressure from the opposition, so the behavior is understandable, though very detrimental.
Think of these people as having very weak immune systems. They can't handle the stress, so they run back to the safety of the group.
They make great for great foot-soldiers, though...
Making me smile, user.
Ya see? Not about me, but the pleasure is real.
Do you study a bit of immunology?
none whatsoever.
I couldn't discuss it beyond it's intent.
Metaphors are nice and often insightful
I honestly don't know how else to express myself.
I don't know the finer details of anything, but i understand their underlying meanings. I have to avoid debates for this reason, HAH!
Let the spirit guide. I suppose that should be my motto.
I imagine you are high in trait openness. It sounds like you make a natural storyteller.
Hehe, you could say that.
What do you find yourself thinking about?
Mostly about all the thinks I don't do that I should be doing.
You mentioned I might be a storyteller, and that's true.
I'm doing my best to get my head out of the clouds and into the real world so i can find an agent to get my book published.
Much harder for people like me.
Every other moment is a perfectly valid reason to abandon my work and move on to something potentially more fruitful, which will inevitably end the same way.
If i could keep myself grounded, I might be successful, but my weaknesses are quite overbearing.
I fear physical torure. No I don't secretly desire it. That's just fucking stupid.
Can't disagree with that.
I fear the cheese in the fridge might go bad before i eat it.
Let Freud have a field day with that bit of nonsense.
It depends what you consider fruitful, I suppose; validity or meaningfullness or maybe financial. But what is the price of not doing something you think you should? Far more costly than it should be I would imagine. Does it dry up? Like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore, and then run?
Could you publish it yourself?
Which part?
Hah, well you've hit the nail on the head there.
Deep down, I do fear loosing touch with that god-spark that I attribute all my creative machinations to.
Maybe there's some kind of disconnect that keeps the two mutually exclusive in my mind.
Maybe!
And yes, I can publish it myself, but my delusions of hyper-success have prohibited me thus far.
Everyone around me says to not sell myself short, and they are all rooting for me. Makes me dream of piles of money and my name in airport book shops. Totally useless.
I suppose i should swallow the hard pill and just self publish.
>The meaning of life is to be found in the adoption of personal responsibility
Poor guy needed some Jordan Peterson. Turning him on to this stuff could have literally changed his life. I think nearly everyone out there would benefit from watching this one: youtube.com
Recommend watching 39:17-51:58 and 58:12-1:11:57
Good looking out.
Now get to reading some Thoreau!
Keeps what mutually exclusive? Your creative talent being a double edged sword in that you feel you struggle to reign in the processes that you want to transmute into wealth? So the ability you possess is outside of your control somehow?
Thanks mate I havent watched his new stuff still working through the personality lectures.
I'm not sure what to make of Suicide Note.
Why do you desire wealth?
If you doubt your actions and question your motivations, I think you're on the right path. From what I've seen, people who are absolutely certain of their moral superiority tend to have the most dangerous potential. They're often unwilling to hear out alternate viewpoints that may challenge their worldview, and they get angry and sensitive when their belief systems get questioned. They tend to be more easily convinced to jump off the slippery slope and come up with excuses to justify their evil actions. A person who feels uncertainty over whether he's right or not will usually make more of an attempt to find the morally right choice when faced with a questionable situation.
I think this is due in large part to their identity being wrapped up in their ideologies. It is a painful experience to be exposed to contrasting information, even more so if much of your behavior and life was predicated on your fundamental suppositions being accurate. And if shown to be inaccurate, how painful that must truly be. A person would do anything to avoid that sort of pain. That's to an extent where these defense mechanisms come into play.
It says a lot about your values when you get bothered by the actions of someone else, because whatever they did was not in alignment with your belief system. For example, my mom is pretty inconsiderate to telemarketers, maids, fast food workers, and it upsets me deeply because I treat everyone with a base respect and I feel her actions violate the tenets I hold.
Look at the_donald, they are for the most part incapable of holding any other opinion, and it just seems to me an inability to think clearly and evaluate the axioms you hold when new data presents itself.
I never understood this irrationality because you blind yourself to what appears to be the most accurate representation of the world.
Personally I thank people who prove me wrong or at least take the effort to refute my knowledge structures. I think criticism is one of the most valuable things in the world.