Thomas Sowell and Civic Nationalism vs Ethnic Nationalism

What's Sup Forums's opinion of this guy?

Is he proof that blacks could integrate given the total eradication of ghetto culture?

Or just a genetic outlier who makes the rest of his tribe look inept in comparison?

Other urls found in this thread:

townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2002/10/01/race-and-iq-n1000028
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

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really fucking sad a thread about Sowell is about whether or not blacks are genetically inferior or not

never change Sup Forums

living proof that blacks can read

reading his economics book atm, the man seems to be very based, but he panders to jews sometimes and i can't figure out why. i don't think he's redpilled to the core but that doesn't make his writings any less valid. he's got hundreds of articles written in the world jewish archive

If you read his books you will find that he blames much of the modern state of black people (high crime rates, no families, drug use etc) on socialist policies, but he has also criticized the taboo against researching race and IQ. Sowell doesn't seem to have any reason to claim that black people are definitely just as smart as white people genetically. He's obviously smart himself and doesn't need to prove anything about his race.

townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2002/10/01/race-and-iq-n1000028

Love the guy.

He wrote columns on the Jewish World Review and if you read any of his writings dealing with foreign affairs he's very pro-Israel. Pretty sad, but besides that he's based.

BASED BLACK MAN XDDDD AMIRITE MY MAGAPEDES XDDDD????

PRAISE KEK LELEELELE

UPBOAT XD

I often wonder if some people are based but still do shit like that in order to succeed professionally and financially

Like it or not you won't get ethnic nationalism in the US since there is no "ethnicity". You have white (which is not an ethnicity), black (which is not an ethnicity), hispanic (which is anything that speaks spanish) and asian (which is not an ethnicity). The only ethnic group in the US is the natives and it's so watered down that it might not exist at all.
Face it, in the US you can only get civic nationalism.
You want to segregate yourself with your "race" fine. Get rid of anti-racism laws and let it happen on its own. But you'll never get the ethnic nationalism.

As far as ghetto culture goes I'll side with mister Sowell and say it's a result of the democratic plantation.

As for the genetic part. Probaly. But have a big enough population and you'll start having many outliers. Your issue with the blacks in the US is that it tilts your populatin against intelectual production. Couple that with all low skill jobs being outsources and a quasy inexaustible supply of labour from Latin America and you got shit storm on your hands.

Yeah, when you're a famous economist, the last thing you want is start naming the jew. I doubt he's faking his Israel stance, but It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

I was not aware he criticized the lack of research into genetic differences. Thank you for informing me swedebro, that actually improves my opinion of him even further.

He probably knows that he's on the edge and a single step further would mean political crucifixion so I can hardly blame him.

He's at the far right of the bell curve, he's proof high IQ blacks can integrate into white society but most blacks aren't high IQ, ipso facto blacks can't integrate, even if they were on average 100 IQ segregation would still occur as it does with any ethnic group with numbers enough to form a community

You can still have racial nationalism, and given enough time American whites would mix enough to form a new white ethnicity

...

You do realize you'll never see a picture of his parents for a reason, right? I'd bet he's somewhere closer to quadroon than anything.

His father died before he was born and he was adopted by his aunt.

I don't really like ethnic nationalism because I don't think you should get a pass just for being English or whatever.
But I also don't really like civic nationalism because I don't think you should get a pass for being "culturally English" or whatever.

I suppose I just don't like nationalism. Instead I think we should practice eugenics to only let certain people breed, and selectively choose immigrants to only let the best in indiscriminate of nationality.

>muh culture

Sowell is a decent but overrated mind solely because he's black. He spouts things that have been said a thousand times over from other white men and or women before.

He's not an idiot but outliers mean absolutely nothing.

Back to /r/the_donald

I think they can integrate but they need to be trained since birth or it will never work. I mean people manage to tame crocodiles to an extent so im sure the nogs could be trained in the same way.

You still have low IQ whites and asians too.
The issue is that they have been put on the democratic plantation and politically enslaved to gibsmedats for votes.
Don't get me wrong you probably won't get a lot of rich blacks in white society but it doesn't mean they can't do blue collar/lower skilled jobs.

Eh probably but I still don't see it happen. In the US that is.

The US used to have strict immigration policies, and it was during these times we saw the best growth economically and culturally. It takes cooperation to build a civilization. What's happening in Europe today isn't cooperation, it's replacement.

Nationalism, whatever brand, is needed to preserve what's left of the civilized world. Could you imagine what the earth will look like 50 years from now when every major city in the west is a Johannesburg, while the Orient gets to carry on like they are?

No parents, but had family.

Grew up in Harlem where he says some of his neighbors grew up to be lawyers, doctors and other prestigious professions.

Hates socialist programs and kowtowing to blacks just because they're black.

Was leftist when he was young, but realized that shit doesn't work because of human nature.

The sooner people figure out being white/black/brown/yellow doesn't mean shit if you're raised right the better. Niggers are in every race because its the lowest form humanity manifests as.

>t. cuck

>Muh Civic nationalism will work

America was basically entirely composed of various people from parts of europe. Nothing is wrong with whites and more whites it's when you start mixing dumb savage low IQ browns you get a problem Reddit.

Blacks like him will be the ones who build sustainable settlements and cities in Africa.

>If you don't give inbred chavs a pass just because they're white you're a cuck.
My problem with nationalism is that it's not discriminatory enough.

Well yeah, which is why I'm saying only let in the best and domestically sterilize any genetic waste.

I don't disagree with you. However, if you take the brightest/best from various cultures under extreme vetting/scrutiny, you could potentially end up with a few more "Sowells", if you get my drift.

No because even if you mix with a "based black" there is no guarantee of your offsprings quality.

Individuality doesn't alter and change the effects of race Mr. Reddit.

>What is an intelligence aberration?
How are you so stupid?

If you read Black Rednecks and White Liberals you'll understand his other writings way better.

He basically makes the case that Southern blacks took the Appalachian/White Trash culture(Hatfields & McCoys) and then immigrated North. They never abandoned the culture and it stops them from advancing. Good stuff.

You should watch the Hatfields & McCoy's and it's just like watching The Wire but in the 1800's.

go back to stormfront idiot

Except Appalachian and "white trash" culture has far less crime and scum than niggers do so that's entirely false.

How about an argument you dumb /r/the_donald cunt? Fuck I'm sick to death of you idiots coming here.

American blacks are a poor example for civic nationalism. They were segregated for most of their history, and have taken to it so readily that they now segregate themselves. In fact, the problem with American blacks isn't that they have failed to integrate into American culture. They are American through and through. However, they have failed to integrate into American WHITE culture, to the point where a lot of them would rather proudly bear a black flaw than a white advantage.

What we see in Europe is different: Our immigrants do not identify with the country they live in, remaining culturally identical to their brethren back home. For us, it would be a great improvement if they'd just... not do that. Civic nationalism looks very good to a European because it's much better than the mess we have now. But to an American, it must look retarded, because the racial tension in America is not caused by a failure to make oneself part of the national culture.

We're seeing a steady progression towards skilled labour and white collar jobs that will only worsen with automation, Sowell himself says that it used to be that people on average earned more the younger they were, steadily though it has switched and now the older you are the more you earn because your mind is now valued over your physique, unskilled physical labour is being phased out and outsourced. Gibs aren't just a way to buy votes, tax cuts act the same way to a working man, they're a way to subsidise an underclass with no economic value to society that'd rely on crime otherwise

Politics moves very fast, look at how quickly the NSDAP went from unknown to absolute power inside half a decade or how America went from Obama to Trump in only 4 years. Nobody can predict what the West will look like a decade from now

So you don't count the Hatfields & McCoys and the heroin epidemic in Appalachia as a problem? The H&M problem required the national guard to be called in.
I've been here a long time buddy, I tried using reddit but fuck that format. I've been here probably since 2008, well before I joined the Army. The problem is you morons who destroy progress and embrace a form of primitivism rather than functionalism. Dont you miss your echo chamber at Stormfront?

Did I say it wasn't a problem? I'm saying even the poorest and scummiest whites are Miles ahead of blacks.

You act like 2008 is old and tell me to go back to stormfront when you're clearly an /r/the_donald transplant. Are you honestly going to pretend like the Appalachian communities are comparable to shitholes like Detroit and shitcago? Do you really want to go there retard?

>Army fag

Go figure. I'm totally unsurprised.

It's just not just nigger culture it's identity politics. Identity politics is so optimal against whites that are trying to be civic that best case scenario is whitey adopts it too. This leads to escalation and basically movement away from civic.

Removal of bad cultural traits and identity politics is the goal of civic but also the pre-condition arguing for it can't bring about

The best you can hope for is war against aliums/China as uniting force

I agree with your first point. This is the same point that Thomas Sowell makes. How education is seen as a negative, as if a person who gets an education is "Selling out".

Blacks that were born into the country are certainly American, it is the government that has caused this divide in groups.

Also Sowell makes the argument that it was Northern white liberal schoolteachers who attributed this "Ghetto" culture to the blacks and defended people who tried to make them advance past it. There's a lot of documented history on this.

Seen any Hollywood movies where a white teacher moves in and makes the she-boons embrace their culture? That's the white liberal at work, instead of getting them to embrace advanced society they would rather have them maintain their outdated way of being. They see blacks more like animals in a zoo than as their fellow man.

Nationalism isn't about saying if you're x you're good, that describes patriotism if anything, it's about protecting your group thereby protecting yourself, it's a symbiotic relationship between the individual and the collective. Ethno-nationalism is only part of a wider ideology.

In America it is not like this. Actual "Racist-type" whites don't exist outside of their basements.

In America we like to err on the side of freedom, regardless of how we are perceived at times.

Speaking of war games, I actually think the best move would be to free North Korea of its oppressive regime. Everyone can get behind that.

>it's about protecting your group
Except "my group" includes a lot of people I do not want to protect and excludes a lot of people I do.

Rather I think "my group" should not be "British people" but "productive people".

Hey, I remember you.
Some fair points, but why take b8 from kids this hard?

>>If you're x you're good, that describes patriotism if anything

Patriotism isn't an ideology.

>Frogposter
>Saying that is b8

Kill yourself /r/the_donald cunt. Don't you have some "based black men" videos to watch? Maybe some occultist Styx nonsense?

Eh I don't mind. I just finished reading Hillbilly Elegy by J.D. Vance. Real amazing work. I'm really fascinated by old Southern culture, and I don't mind the banter.

>Cherry-picking
>Anecdotal evidence
>Proof

kys, shill

sage

Then you're not a nationalist, just an elitist. The kind of person that was pushing for eugenics in the 1920s. You have more in common with a globalist than a nationalist. You clearly just don't realise it

I know I'm not an elitist, in my first post I said I don't like nationalism.

>You have more in common with a globalist
I realize that. I think what we need is some kind of futurist fascist globalism.

I know old southern culture well.
It's not what the propagandists and media have jammed into everyone's minds.

*I know I'm not a nationalist

>eradication of ghetto culture?
I don't think it will happen. I mean 40 years of shitty cRap music gets old. (((Hollywood))) doesn't seem to want to create them a new identity or at least spin the down-low thug shit in some kind of positive light so I don't think it will happen. Same with the whim-men.

That's why I mentioned traditionalism, class and hierarchy is a way that you can order society, "productive englishmen" is a group "productive humans" is not, they don't share any commonality that can be the basis of a community

No shit, I didn't imply that

Furthermore, when it comes to the argument of an ethnostate.

How do you define who is eligible to live in your state and who isn't? How do you enforce it? How do you deal with those who would choose to marry outside of the law, much like the Loving's did in Virginia during anti-miscegenation era?

What do you do with the current half-breeds?

Your idea of an ethnostate isn't possible, especially not with the small numbers you bolster. On the other hand, a free-market based meritocracy free of welfare would be optimal as a future course for America. If you will call it civic nationalism then so be it, but I would prefer Americans who have nationalism in mind, dump all other bonds at the door.

3pbp

The older black gentlemen are elderly and dying so eventually it will be all nigger ghetto shit forever to them. I wouldn't be shocked if the Star-Spangled Banner wasn't changed to the Star-Spangled Pimp Daddy one day by law.

As a soldier I want to let you know that the faggot you're talking to is not representative of the majority of people I've come across. There are a great deal of redpilled soldiers

>whim-men

He's a complete genetic outlier.
The fact that one black person is smarter than the majority of Europeans bears no relation to the vast majority of Africans who are completely retarded.
He's probably mixed as well. Most of the smart ones are.

He's proof that the Bell curve is real and that there are a tiny minority of blacks who theoretically could live in white countries. You'd still need to cull 95% of the population, so I don't know if that counts as civic nationalism

We have the same thing, with lefties with a white saviour complex frustrating integration. Except here they are legit in the government.

That's what's so frustrating, here. We had a fresh start, without years of bad blood, and STILL the left managed to fuck it up to the point where our problems with immigrants are almost identical as (some would say worse than) with a group that was living segregated and oppressed for most of its history.

Leftist ideology has failed in every way imaginable, and the only defense they have against that claim is to put you in jail for making it. I wouldn't be nowhere near as salty if the shit they said was actually true. But they watch at crime figures spiralling out of control, at rampant terrorism, at third generation migrants still calling themselves the nationality of their grandparents, and having the passports to back it up, and say "we need more of this".

I like Sowell, but blacks like him are outliers.

>a tiny minority of blacks
It could be as many as 10% if it weren't for the "don't act white" meme. Black man keeping the black man down.

He's what the niggers call Uncle Tom's basically, the black man who tries to pursue a career, better himself, and contribute to society like a white man, basically seen as a race traitor to the rest of his community.

I don't like traditionalism either, I think it's Muslim-tier backwardness that's totally contrary to everything that makes Europe great. We ought to be looking to the future rather than backwards into a romanticized past.

> they don't share any commonality that can be the basis of a community
Our material standing and productivity already proves that we have common values and life choices. There's a good reason the ultra-rich very often marry outside of their ethnicity with other ultra-rich people, a white billionaire has more in common with a Chinese billionaire than he does with a white redneck.

Hell, the Queen is married to a Danish guy.

Yes, I too wish the South had seceded. I think we'd be living in better times, slavery was on it's way out morally so that's a non-argument that people like to bring up.
Perhaps you're not aware of the problem friend, it's the welfare state. Welfare keeps a culture alive that cannot thrive outside of assistance, whereas it would need to adapt if it were to survive solely on its own merits, this is impossible because of welfare. You wanna fix blacks? Eliminate welfare tomorrow. Yes, there will be a lot of casualties, but you'll be doing them a positive service in the long run.
Fuck you faggot, 10th Mountain Div Inf 11b, eat a dick. I'm a veteran now, go fuck yourself.
The sad thing is that you really do not realize how simple minded you are. Let me guess, you believe in the jewz conspiracies too?

>But muh evul whytes

The sad thing is you have presented no argument.

And who do you think feeds them this shit?

It's the Marxists man, if I could go back in time and do one thing it would be to kill Karl Marx before he wrote Das Kapital.

As much as I HATE these talking points, I was forced to take a sociology class in Uni and it made me understand their arguments, especially understand them in a better way that I can counter and defeat them now given my previous and ever-expanding knowledge outside of their echo chamber.

>It could be as many as 10%
I don't honestly know about percentages. My 95% was just a rough number to include the vast majority of blacks
The sad thing is that you present no argument other than calling me simple minded and implying things I never said. That's a sign of low IQ

But I have. You're the one who hasn't, except relying on IQ levels, which the IQ guys themselves admit are sporadic in conclusions at best.

>You wanna fix blacks? Eliminate welfare tomorrow.
you'll just be ending up with increased crime rates

Love Thomas Sowell.

>the IQ guys
IQ is considered to be hereditary by majority (not wholly). It is indeed representative of what we consider to be intelligence on most fronts.
Albert Einstein didn't have an IQ of 80, did he? Stephen Hawking's IQ isn't 80, and neither is Bill Gate's.

I don't think so. I think realistically, you would see a universal call for jobs, the 2nd amendment, and blacks would be forced to compete for survival.

If they choose to the crime then that's why we have police services to deter that.

People on welfare wouldn't starve, but I can tell you, you would be seeing a huge surge of memberships among churches. Churches were the charities of the past.

Understand that blacks were able to catch up(For the most part) to the rest of American society in such a short time, there's no reason why they couldn't catch up to everyone else in a meritocracy.

Unless of course you do not believe blacks are equal, then you either want their survival(liberals) or their eradication(stormies).

>My 95% was just a rough number to include the vast majority of blacks
5% is the rough number I think of for blacks who don't nig. And from what I understand, that 5% hates niggers more than anyone else.

>want their survival (liberals)
What does it say about the majority of Africans when they can't succeed without state money WITH affirmative action being in place?

>How do you define who is eligible to live in your state and who isn't? How do you enforce it? How do you deal with those who would choose to marry outside of the law, much like the Loving's did in Virginia during anti-miscegenation era?

This is quibbling over details that don't really matter to the overall goal, I could just as well ask you to come up with the exact tax rate your society would use

>a free-market based meritocracy free of welfare would be optimal as a future course for America

I don't see how you have the gall to call WN impossible then claim this is any more likely

Saying something is bad because it's old is intellectually vacuous, and in my opinion common values are as empty as shared politics when it comes to forming a society, it lasts only as long as it takes for the first generation to die out

No matter how many advantages and socioeconomic privelidges given to our melanin enriched friends the sole rule stays true

>A nigger stays a nigger

It's like their brain chemistry is physically different

t. white man

Not my experience. Sorry friend.

>HURR IM A VETERAN RESPECT ME

eat a dick you pathetic low IQ grunt faggot

I'm not saying something is bad because it's old, I'm saying that the idea that something is good because it's old is retarded. We should judge ideas on their own merits rather than how traditional they are, keep the good ones, discard the useless ones.

> and in my opinion common values are as empty as shared politics when it comes to forming a society, it lasts only as long as it takes for the first generation to die out
On the contrary shared values are the only thing that really matters. Definitely more than a vague feeling of "Englishness" or whatever.

I have my values, they're what has gotten me to where I am in life, they're what define me. It's only natural to co-operate with people that share similar values. But what's the point in co-operating with people that don't? Just because they happened to be born on the same island as me? That seems completely and totally irrational.

your entire theory revolves around welfare. While the theory does have some merit, however it does not explaing the numerous failed states in sub-saharan Africa were a welfare state is mostly absent. And it's not a "civilization" problem either, since the same thing happens in south American countries with big black populations.
Could it be that the IQ theory does have some merit?

>And from what I understand, that 5% hates niggers more than anyone else.
Definitely. Sowell is a good example of that

>Comparing data from old IQ testing with new IQ testing

Have you taken an IQ test recently? It used to be all patterns and math, now it is word association and knowledge based questions.

I hate to admit it, but class divide will impact results, education level will impact results.

IQ levels do have a basis in arguments, but I wouldn't rely on them solely to solidify said argument.

I think one of the most important things when it comes to intelligence is breastfeeding, and if you notice minorities in America tend to not breastfeed much, they go for formula. I'd like some more research on that front.

>I could just as well ask you to come up with the exact tax rate your society would use.
Flat rate, 25% tax. Your turn.

We used to have what the called the "black church" which did well to maintain the family. Then the family came under attack and they were just the first targets. The welfare state then rendered the father unnecessary.... this is the heart and root of many societal problems in the formerly Christian West.

That would be interesting research.
I doubt it's true, however, because most women over here don't breastfeed their children as much as they used to.
IQ isn't the only piece of data, however. The number of people on welfare? Overwhelmingly African in America. Even in Britain, where Africans are a minute percentage of the total population yet still occupy a completely disproportionate part of the unemployed of this country.
Crime is the worst as well, as they have are responsible for yet again a disproportionate amount of it.
>pic related
>it's from a shitty tabloid, but it's representing data from genuine study
Also consider the "warrior gene", which inclines people to be more aggressive than average; the vast majority of people with this trait are African.
I've diverged quite a bit from the original IQ argument, but this is material in understanding that we can't have vastly different races living in close proximity to one another as, on average, they are incompatible.

I hate to bring this up honestly, I sound like a fucking liberal. Colonization was pretty bad, I think the blacks were fucked from the get-go. The Afrikaaners certainly could have helped them but they chose to slaughter them instead. Most importantly, I think the thing that was missing in Africa was religion. If Christianity had appeared in Africa instead of Europe I don't see why the entire table wouldn't be flipped upside down. Judeo Christian values built the western civ. There's no denying that. Please do elaborate on the Southern America point you're making, I'm not sure I'm familiar with your argument.
>Could IQ theory have some merit?
I wish universal IQ testing consisted of patterns and user-friendly problems that don't rely on knowledge, but rather intelligence. However, there's no fucking way, it's too politicized nowadays.
Correct. You have the eradication of the family, feminism, and liberals to thank for that. Black marriage rates were in the 90% rankings in the 1950's. Single motherhood was low, then liberals happened.

A lot of things have contributed to the downfall of blacks in the U.S., a lot of things that are more than just black and white(war on drugs for example) but they themselves as a race aren't without fault.

Civic nationalism is a stupid fantasy. Even the waves of white immigration radically transformed the USA's political system, from a sort of small state when it was primarily English to growing acceptance of ever larger government as you had other northern Euros come in. Then when you had massive waves of Irish and Jews the identity politics started. I mean, it's working now but do you honestly think millions upon millions of people from Latin America will suddenly stop voting for socialist and communist policies just because they crossed into the US and muh constitution?

Yeah they behave like shit even in Europe and we didn't have any of that.

Dude we have Somalis going around raping when they're barely a day here, I don't think Marxist indoctrination is that strong.

fpbp

I don't know, you should look at the numbers of upper class folks who breastfeed compared to everyone else, the numbers will shock you.
>Number of people on welfare
Whites make up the majority of people on welfare, also you have to realize that a lot of people scam the system. People will sell their food stamps or rent section 8 that they use as a second house. We need welfare reform, period.
I've read up on the warrior gene, I know there's a lot of correlation going on, however there just isn't enough data that shows a direct correlation. There's a lot of people out there who have a high tendency for the gene, but genes can be dormant and not active. This argument was hell when I tried to have it with my chemist gf, it's a very hard argument to win. If you're interested in the breastfeeding stuff though, just google the research on colostrum.

Heh, who's not without fault? I see broken families all around me, I don't know about you. Yes, a lot of things contributed to it.

It's 'okay' to rape in Islam.

Says the Germ cuck whose people are afraid to even speak up. Try any form of nationalism there before you move on to civic or ethno or anything.
Difference in culture. That's not an excuse, it's the answer.
You're comparing a 3rd world country to a 1st world country. Think about that for a second, that's not Marxism. That's like getting Rwandan's and throwing them in the Mall of America for a day of shopping. Utter chaos. Your leaders are retards.

>Colonization was pretty bad, I think the blacks were fucked from the get-go
I disagree. Colonization (while definitely brutal in some cases and morally wrong in all cases), mostly benefited blacks, especially when it comes down to IQ. Before European colonialism Africans largely lived a tribal lifestyle, many tribes were still nomadic and suffered from malnutrition and there are links between malnutrition and lower IQ scores.
Colonialism, for all the evil it did, partially fixed this problem, by forcing many tribes to settle down thus contributing to stopping the nomadic lifestyle. Not to mention the educational effort (which was needed in order to better manage the colonies).
> I think the thing that was missing in Africa was religion.
Most Africans practiced one form of religion or another, mostly animistic religions, but still... I don't see how Christianity would have helped, especially considering that a vast portion of Africans are Christians nowadays and still live miserable lives.
>Please do elaborate on the Southern America point
I was pointing out the fact that while south America has cultural roots in Western civilization, they still have the same problems with blacks that the US has, despite the lack of a welfare net (see places like Haiti)

Civic Nationalism is literally just rebranded Straussian Neo-Conservatism, i.e. globalism favoring the Jews and their cohorts abover everyone else.

>hey guys we're patriots for real nevermind we're doing the same things Neo-Liberals were, we have the word NATIONALISM in the name, even though the addendum of (((civic))) makes it fucking meanigless.
>here's some historical revisionism about how Nationalism didn't even exist until the French Revolution even though that's brazen bullshit
>but you're all double IQ niggers and mutts so you'll beleive it anyway

>Who is not without fault?
I realize it's rhetorical, but if I had to come up with an answer I'd say the amish or the mormons. Their culture teaches them to be little bitches. Mormons are cucks nowadays.