>ϟϟ HAIL VICTORY! ϟϟ
Thread for discussion of the Jewish Question, Race Realism, National Socialism, Anti-Communism, Fascism, Traditionalism, White Nationalism, and European Identity Movements. Share links, PDFs, reading, videos, and propaganda.
> 卐 - SMASH THE LEFT!
> 卐 - COUNTER DEGENERACY!
> 卐 - EXPOSE ZOG!
ϟϟ /NSG/ HAS ITS OWN SERIES NOW ϟϟ
youtu.be
卐 IF YOU DO NOT SEE A GENERAL IN THE CATALOG PLEASE COPY FROM THE PASTEBIN AND CREATE ONE! - HELP SPREAD THE LOVE! 卐
卐 PASTEBIN - pastebin.com
ϟϟ Study the enemy, co-opt the memes of production ϟϟ
4thvoiceblog.wordpress.com
dummymag.com
historyisaweapon.org
ϟϟ ORIGINAL National Socialist speeches and essays (archives): ϟϟ
research.calvin.edu
research.calvin.edu
ϟϟ 3rd Reich image archives ϟϟ
mega.nz
卐 - POLITICAL POSITION STATEMENTS
nordfront.se
natall.com
northwestfront.org
卐 - NEWS, RADIO, COMMENTARY & FORUMS
>Nordic Frontier - Nordfront's Podcast **RECOMMENDED**
spreaker.com
thepurityspiral.com
theoccidentalobserver.net
infostormer.com
ironmarch.org
vnnforum.com
卐 - VIRAL MEDIA
dumpert.nl
thegreateststorynevertold.tv
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卐 - PHYSICAL MEDIA
imgur.com
Ϟϟ /nsg/ 卐 National Socialism General
Other urls found in this thread:
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archive.is
youtu.be
docdro.id
wikispooks.com
docdroid.net
archive.org
cis.org
archive.is
thezog.wordpress.com
thezog.wordpress.com
thezog.wordpress.com
thezog.wordpress.com
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thezog.wordpress.com
thezog.wordpress.com
volokh.com
controversyofzion.info
youtube.com
blogs.forward.com
come-and-hear.com
trutube.tv
books.google.com
jewwatch.com
jewwatch.com
holywar.org
ihr.org
truthtellers.org
heretical.com
iamthewitness.com
liveleak.com
en.wikipedia.org
jewishfaces.com
youtu.be
youtu.be
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nobeliefs.com
pastebin.com
en.metapedia.org
web.archive.org
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
smoloko.com
harrington-sites.com
balderexlibris.com
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
aryanism.net
aryanism.net
archive.org
archive.org
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youtu.be
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fryskednis.blogspot.com
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churchandstate.org.uk
hubpages.com
archive.org
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projectavalon.net
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ub.edu
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
youtu.be
tomatobubble.com
youtu.be
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archive.is
archive.org
marxists.org
archive.org
nationalactionlondon.files.wordpress.com
endchan.xyz
my.mixtape.moe
my.mixtape.moe
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
laraj.ca
research.calvin.edu
research.calvin.edu
mega.nz
pastebin.com
archive.org
press.princeton.edu
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
germanvictims.com
archive.org
pastebin.com
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
archive.org
theneworder.org
archive.org
toqonline.com
angelfire.com
pastebin.com
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mega.nz
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5sswiking.tumblr.com
mourningtheancient.com
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m.youtube.com
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en.m.wikipedia.org
m.youtube.com
wintersonnenwende.com
wintersonnenwende.com
youtube.com
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bloodandsoil.org
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twitter.com
卐 - WHITE GENOCIDE & JEWISH INFLUENCE
======================================
>RABBI Yosef Tzvi Ben Porat explains why Hitler hated Jews.
youtu.be
>Endgame - White Genocide
youtu.be
>THE JEWISH QUESTION
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>The Jewish-Bolshevik Decimation of the Russian People
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>Jewish financiers and the Russian Revolution
youtu.be
>Putin confirms, 85% Jews behind Bolshevism
youtu.be
>The Talmudic basis of Jewish supremacy
youtu.be
>Miscegenation illegal in (((Our Greatest Ally)))
youtu.be
>Jews pushing immigration for white nations
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>Barbara Lerner Spectre
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>Jewish Supremacism
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>Noel Ignatiev
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>Mainstreaming white genocide
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>Sarkozy on forced misecegenation
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>Ben Freedman on World Zionist wars
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>Alon Ziv promoting interracial couples
youtu.be
>Alon Ziv defending Jews refusing to breed outside their race
archive.is
>The Frankfurt School of Cultural Marxism
youtu.be
communism >>> natsoc
...
卐 - Jews in High Places
--------------------------------------
>200 Years together by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
ϟϟ FULLY TRANSLATED BY 8pol THANKS! ϟϟ
docdro.id
>Germany Must Perish by Kaufman
wikispooks.com
>The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine
docdroid.net
>You Gentiles by Maurice Samuels
archive.org
>Steinlight: 'The Jewish Stake in America's Changing Democracy'
cis.org
archive.is
--------------------------------------
thezog.wordpress.com
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...
...
Communism and the Jews
volokh.com
Communism was Jewish - Communism is Jewish
controversyofzion.info
Communism's Death Toll, and the Jewish Role in Bolshevism
youtube.com
A Jew in Mao's China
blogs.forward.com
Jews and Marxism - Socialism - Communism
come-and-hear.com
The Jewish Bolshevik Commies
trutube.tv
The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine
books.google.com
Jewish Communists
jewwatch.com
Jewish Founders of International Communism for the One World Order
jewwatch.com
Jewish Pre-Eminence in the Political Left/Communism
holywar.org
The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia's Early Soviet Regime
ihr.org
Jewish Activists Created Communism
truthtellers.org
Jews and Bolshevism
heretical.com
Jews and Communism
iamthewitness.com
Jewish Bolsheviks
liveleak.com
Jewish Bolshevism
en.wikipedia.org
Jewish Faces in Chinese Government
jewishfaces.com
...
...
卐 - CHRISTIANITY IN THE THIRD REICH
------------------------------------
>Christianity is the basis of the entire morality of Germany
youtu.be
>Hitler will never forsake God
youtu.be
>Hitler defending Christianity
youtu.be
>Christianity and religion in Hitler's Germany
youtu.be
>Debunking the anti-Christian myth
nobeliefs.com
>Christianity is not Jewish
pastebin.com
>Adolf Hitler and Christianity
en.metapedia.org
>Debunking the Myths of "Nazi Occultism"
web.archive.org
>Hitler and Christianity
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
>Hitler and Christianity - Smoloko
smoloko.com
>Was Catholic Hitler "Anti-Christian"?
harrington-sites.com
>Positive Christianity in the Third Reich - D. Cajus Fabricius
balderexlibris.com
>Positive Christianity in the Third Reich
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
christogenea.org
卐 - ESOTERICISM
>Miguel Serrano: Hitler, the ultimate avatar
aryanism.net
aryanism.net
>Serrano: Temple of Wotan
archive.org
>Hans Jost: Path of Wotan
archive.org
>David Lane: Creed of Iron
archive.org
>Savitri Devi - Gold in the Furnace
archive.org
>Savitri Devi - Impeachment of Man
archive.org
>Savitri Devi - Defiance
archive.org
>Omniphi: Carl Jung, the Collective Unconscious
youtu.be
>Omniphi: Esoteric Kekism
youtu.be
>The Origin of Himmler's Spirituality: Waralda and the Oera Linda codex
fryskednis.blogspot.com
>Joseph Atwill's theory of Christianity as Roman in origin
>(not strictly esoteric, but often referenced by neo-pagan esoterics, here for reference)
youtu.be
>Mythicist positions (for reference)
churchandstate.org.uk
hubpages.com
...
...
卐 - ESOTERICISM (2)
>The Asatru Edda
archive.org
>Sven Longshanks' series on Aryan Esotericism (takes a more Christian-Centric view)
Playlist:
>1 - Aryan Esoterica: Odin, the Runes, Gnosticism and Christ
archive.org
>2- Aryan Esoterica: Lucifer, the Black Sun, Angels and the Green Thunderbolt
archive.org
>3- Aryan Esoterica: Archetypes, Avatars, Hitler and Sex
archive.org
>4 - Aryan Esoterica: Jews, Judeans and Josephites
archive.org
>5 - Aryan Esoterica: In The Beginning
archive.org
>Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's books:
>THe Occult Roots of Nazism
archive.org
>Black Sun: Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity
archive.org
>Western Esoteric Traditions
projectavalon.net
卐 - BRITISH NATSOC
>Jonathan Bowden:
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>Sir Oswald Mosley:
youtu.be
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卐 - GERMAN NATSOC
youtu.be
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>25 Demands of National Socialism:
youtu.be
>Rodney Martin - The Economic Plan of the NSDAP
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>German Economic Miracle of the 1930's
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>Hitler's Economic Reform:
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>Social and Cultural Policies of NS Germany
youtu.be
>Against the Mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930's Germany (Germa Bel)
ub.edu
>NatSoc German Economic Policy
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
mk.christogenea.org
>Hitler's Warning about the Zionist Control Structure
youtu.be
>Adolf Hitler: Man of Peace?
tomatobubble.com
>Hitler: We Want Nothing But Peace
youtu.be
>Hitler's Appeal for Peace in 1939
youtu.be
卐 - BOOKS (1)
------
>Oswald Spengler - Prussianism and Socialism
archive.is
>Alfred Rosenberg's Criticism of Spengler
archive.org
>Karl Marx - A Critique of the German Ideology
marxists.org
>Martin Heidegger - Ponderings Books II–VI
archive.org
>Adolf Hitler - Mein Kampf (English)
Ford: nationalactionlondon.files.wordpress.com
Stalag: endchan.xyz
Kindle: my.mixtape.moe
EPUB: my.mixtape.moe
>Adolf Hitler - Mein Kampf (Deutsch)
archive.org
>Adolf Hitler - The Words of Adolf Hitler
archive.org
>Adolf Ehrt - Communism in Germany
archive.org
>Gottfried Feder - The Program Of The NSDAP The National Socialist Workers' Party And Its General Conceptions
archive.org
>Gottfried Feder - Das Programm der NSDAP (Deutsch)
archive.org
>Gottfried Feder - Manifesto For The Abolition Of Interest Slavery
archive.org
>Gottfried Feder The German State On A National And Socialist Foundation
archive.org
>James Mason - 'Siege'
laraj.ca
>ORIGINAL National Socialist speeches and essays (archives)
research.calvin.edu
research.calvin.edu
卐 - BOOKS (2)
------
>Politically Incorrect Books Archive:
mega.nz
>The New Order - Collateral Reading
pastebin.com
>Tomislav Sunic - Art in the Third Reich: 1933-1945
archive.org
>A. James Gregor - Mussolini's Intellectuals
press.princeton.edu
>The Triumph of Reason - The Thinking Man's Adolf Hitler by Michael Walsh
archive.org
>Arthur Bryant - Unfinished Victory (1940)
>Prominent British historian writes a fairly objective prehistory of WWII
archive.org
>William Joyce – Twilight Over England
>Twilight Over England compared the evils of Jewish-dominated capitalist Britain with the successes of National Socialist Germany.
archive.org
>Jewish Domination Of Weimar Germany 1919-1932, Eckart-Verlag
archive.org
>Arthur Pillans Laurie - The Case for Germany: A Study of Modern Germany
>a view of National-Socialist Germany by a Scottish scholar inside Hitler's Third Reich.
archive.org
>Percy Stephensen - The Foundations Of Culture In Australia: An Essay Towards National Self-Respect
archive.org
>Leon Degrelle - Campaign in Russia: the Waffen SS on the Eastern Front
germanvictims.com
>David Duke - My Awakening: A Path to Racial Understanding
archive.org
卐 - BOOKS (3)
------
>The Works of David Irving
pastebin.com
>James Bacque - Other Losses
archive.org
>James Bacque - Crimes and Mercies
archive.org
>Savitri Devi - Gold in the Furnace
archive.org
>Savitri Devi - Impeachment of Man
archive.org
>Savitri Devi - Defiance
archive.org
>Maurice Samuels - You Gentiles
archive.org
>Henry Ford - The International Jew
archive.org
>Wayne MacLeod - The Importance of Race in Civilization
archive.org
>Israel Shahak - Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years
archive.org
>Matt Koehl - The Revolutionary Nature of National Socialism
theneworder.org
>Colin Jordan - National Socialism: Vanguard of the Future
archive.org
>Kevin MacDonald - Cultural Insurrections: Essays on Western Civilization, Jewish Influence and Anti-Semitism
toqonline.com
>Kevin MacDonald - The Culture of Critique
angelfire.com
卐 - HOLOHOAX
-------------
>Pastebins
pastebin.com
pastebin.com
>In 10 seconds
youtu.be
>In 20 seconds
youtu.be
>Harold Covington: Common questions and answers
youtu.be
>Eric Hunt: Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor
youtu.be
>David Cole
youtu.be
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>David Irving
youtu.be
>Gerd Shulze-Ronhoff
youtu.be
>Steven Anderson
youtu.be
>The Haavara Agreement
youtu.be
youtu.be
youtu.be
>The 6 million
“You shall return minus 6 million"
youtu.be
>inb4 /nsg/ OP is the REAL (((shill)))
Fuck off commies
Here you go party comrade
>claims to have the answer to the jewish question
>believes in (((Christianity)))
pick one
Continueing from last thread with the Sup Forums book recommendations. People need to be educated as much as possible.
D&C shill pls
卐 - ENLIGHTENED READING
--------------------------------------------
>A Guide to German Flying Discs
mega.nz
>The UFO's of Nazi Germany
mega.nz
>Reich of The Black Sun
mega.nz
>The Laws of The ϟϟ Order
mega.nz
>All About Operation Paperclip
mega.nz
>The Book of Aryan Wisdom & Laws
mega.nz
卐 - VISUAL PROPAGANDA
------------------------------------------
>History of Hitler's Waffen ϟϟ
5sswiking.tumblr.com
>Adolf Hitler And The Army of Mankind
mourningtheancient.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
m.youtube.com
卐 - UKRAINE NATSOC
-----------------------------------
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
m.youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
>Funeral For A Ukrainian Nationalist
m.youtube.com
卐 Slava Nova Shvabiya 卐
卐 Vitayu Peremoha 卐
>tfw he followed us in
...
Jk, he will be the first to the firing squad
NYS faggot
responsible for the death of millions of white Europeans
Idiots defend a jew religion with more passion than their women, mothers and brothers
fuck your religions, I love MY people more than your hallucinations!
en.m.wikipedia.org
>The Thirty Years' War was a series of wars in Central Europe between 1618 and 1648. It was one of the longest and most destructive conflicts in European history,[16] as well as the deadliest European religious war, resulting in eight million casualties.
Great NS YouTuber:
m.youtube.com
Hitler's invasion of Poland was justified:
wintersonnenwende.com
Preemptive attack on Soviet Union:
wintersonnenwende.com
can i join the edgy faggets?
Did I fucking stutter?
No, you're just responding to a retarded shill.
What is the general NatSoc view of Imperial Russia?
Yeah, Antifa can be found at /leftypol/
My image swapped with someone else's.
You're American, you don't have any people. Go vargpost somewhere else, retard.
Yeah, they can be found on cripplechan's /leftypol/
Pic related is a sample
It's good to deal with these people if you can while others are watching. It'll teach people a lesson
...
>Triggered by "Fascists" "National Socialist"
>Corporitism is Lefty Economics
>gloats about wanting to kill a white European man to suck a circumcised jew dick because he fears the unknown.
we'll see who's gods are real ;)
Mars, oh vengeful Mars, Your power has been proven by the fact Americucks, Britcucks and Russocucks have not won a single war since their final act of (((treachery))).
Their children will continue to be sacrificed to the jew so long as they worship the jew.
I'm European born to European parents, why the fuck would I say these things otherwise?!
Those who curse me today, will bless me tomorrow
No more (You)s for (((Jou)))s
Remember the biggest trigger for the shills is when normal NatSocGen members talk about them yet don't supply them any (You)s
Let them feed US the (You)s guys
"Christianity isn't jewish goys, we totally made some modifications like, uh deus vulting to save the jews holy land, I mean "Christendom" .
yes yes goys I mean guys, NatSoc is about worshipping jews. Only shills believe otherwise, oh and Hitler was a jew with a circumcised baby dick.
A fascist who has the welfare of the nation in mind controlling Corporations is much better than Corporations controlling the state like in the USA to the detriment of its people.
...
Hey lads, how you doing?
Traitors to mother Europe are not welcome
...
((()))
>jewish usury is a problem
>don't forget your tithes goyim
pick one
American whites are a people
Why is /ptg/ such cancer?
It's like reverse colonization of Sup Forums
I can't be in there for more than 2 seconds without experiencing aneurisms
what have I done to be called a traitor to glorious Mother Europa?! You mean wanting to preserve her from the semitic filth that raped her and her people for 2000 years?!
American whites are a bastardized people
That is why they are so easily controlled by (((them))) America did not exist long enough to establish its own deep culture over many centuries. Too much infighting and the wrong side losing the civil war fucked America over: they could have been so much more than just redneck + melting pot culture
>AWOOVEMENT XDDDDDDD
They're redditors on the wrong website.
bump
Hail victory, brothers. And sister. I know at least one of you is, I see her post about this thread on FB.
What would it take for American whites to rise up and claim their nation?
The ideals, principals and faith of our people are not so lightly tossed aside.
You might be interested in reading Siege by James Mason if you want whites to rise up and claim their country. Pic related.
Just ignore him, he's been stalking these threads
Is everyone memorizing our thread's marching song?
>Lyrics:
Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
Und das heißt: Erika
Heiß von hunderttausend kleinen Bienelein
Wird umschwärmt Erika
Denn ihr Herz ist voller Süßigkeit,
Zarter Duft entströmt dem Blumenkleid
Denn ihr Herz ist voller Süßigkeit,
Zarter Duft entströmt dem Blumenkleid
Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
Und das heißt: Erika
In der Heimat wohnt ein kleines Mägdelein
Und das heißt: Erika
Dieses Mädel ist mein treues Schätzelein
Und mein Glück, Erika
Wenn das Heidekraut rot-lila blüht,
Singe ich zum Gruß ihr dieses Lied.
Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
Und das heißt: Erika
In mein'm Kämmerlein blüht auch ein Blümelein
Und das heißt: Erika
Schon beim ersten Morgengrau'n sowie beim Dämmerschein
Schaut's mich an, Erika
Und dann ist es mir, als spräch' es laut:
Denkst du auch an deine kleine Braut?
In der Heimat weint um dich ein Mägdelein
Und das heißt: Erika
hail our people and our amazing women. Love you always
Bump
Race war and immediate restablishment of an ethnostate would be the quickest solution
If could also hope to sit around for another "Nazi Germany" to rise up from Europe and they could side with the right side this time
Electing cuckservatives officials will only prolong the slow bleed but it's the best shot America has right now; either hold out or wait for the Wrath of The Awakened Saxon to reach critical mass
On a personal level; get your life in order, get fit, and find a local NatSoc chapter in your area like Vanguard America > bloodandsoil.org
The more consolidated public members there are; the more the majority will hear of the fringe minority
That last one is the most important.
Too many people use the red pill as a cudgel to bludgeon others into submission (which almost always fails), rather than a tool to convince people why we are correct.
Infighting, this is a major obstacle for all the nations of the new world...
A house divided against itself cannot stand
I really need to read For My Legionnaires
AWOO-posters must be destroyed
She says this is the only thread where she doesn't have to listen to virgins talk about raping women. That its the only thread with men worth respecting, who actually wind up with any women. I wanted to salute her for that praise, but felt it would be breaking the 4th wall if I did, so I stayed anonymous.
You keep posting this and I'm glad
I forgot about it already
Gonna make a note to check it out
>Songname: Darude - Sandstorm
Never change old/pol/ lmao
I haven't actually read it yet either lol. I'm currently reading Revolt Against the Modern World and Plato's Republic
Who are you guys talking about?
The biggest sin of my nation has been the lack of national will to remove the traitors that have always lent their right hands to foreign powers while clutching a knife in the left hand to stab the back of their fellow compatriots.
All of our national heroes have died in poverty, executed or banished from our island.
It's a favorite on IM
卐 - BOOKS (1)
------
...
>James Mason - 'Siege'
laraj.ca
...
lol: youtu.be
I think user just hopped in the thread and didn't realize he's being shilled
oops i meant: youtu.be
qt [okay hand symbol emoji]
Man, I've been reading that book every morning for the last week. Highly recommend the read, whether on your device or the actual book itself like I have. It's spiritually motivating, especially if christ is still a part of your life, in a time that seemed very dark. A constant battle for him with jews in Codreanu's 1919 Romania.
Just got to the chapter "The Jewish Problem"
>not so lightly tossed aside.
you're correct, (((Christians))) had to slaughter millions of our people, burn at the stake and violently submit us from our former beliefs.
Europeans gave that (((religion))) it's positives, not the religion giving Europeans something positive.
No one will know of these semitic religions in 50 years in Europa. The Temple of Mars will be at it's center.
We had a post like this earlier this week on Sup Forums, but what is the general consensus on Red-Pill hair for women?
Braids? Wavy?
...
Did everyone hear the good news?
Braids, most definitely.
W H E A T F I E L D S
I also heard that his bail got reduced and he hired a good lawyer that could potentially lower his sentence to 5 years or less
On top of that he probably won't even lose his job in the mean time
(((Justice)))
Wheatfields indeed
You sound like you were getting your news on lol. His lawyer implied he was a domestic terrorist, and shook the entire press conference like he had Parkinson's.
I may be a Holocaust-Denier, I may be a Nazi Sympathizer, but goddamnit, you guys take this too far. It's like every pro-white poster only uses emotions to support their drive against liberal arguments for the purpose of turning off the paranoia that white people will be bred out of existence. I believe that a %100 white Europe would be great and we all want and need it to happen to a certain extent, but you gotta learn to get a balance. You gotta use logic and admit when the Left is right (lol). And National Socialism, even if Hitler and Goebbels tried to whitewash the implications of the name, it still is Socialism. And Socialism is good! It isn't that bad. I love the economics of National Socialism, because it caused one of the greatest economic miracles of all time, up there with the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the merchant class during the Renaissance. You guys don't need to tiptoe around it. It's alright to be a little left-wing. But you guys gotta make a compromise (and keep in mind I hope Nazism makes a reprise): Find a middle ground with Liberals, make it clear that we won't tolerate abortion or the ethnic extinction of any people (even though I hate the fact that the Nazis were obsessed with race to the point of ugliness), but you have to push for the legalization of gay marriage worldwide, you gotta make sure we legalize extensive gun rights (not like they didn't have that in Nazi Germany) and free speech worldwide, and we need to legalize marijuana and psychedelics. Those things are very important and you guys need to give up your anal retentiveness and if you make that compromise, you'll see another Nazi regime come up and be supported by liberals in a difficult and desperate time where National Socialist economics will be one of the only ways to get out of this mess. You guys gotta work together, baby.
I only saw a quick glance of a thread here on Sup Forums
I didn't check it out myself; was too disgusted by it
...Probably should have checked it out myself lol
tl;dr
So you're saying we have to be libertarians
it's only lame drunkards and their beta orbiters that speak of ￦hite sharia. They live off donations from the beta orbiters because they're such "alphas".
they'll have their dirty lying mouths shut soon enough.
>(((Strasserism))) is totally redpilled goys
>but also be libertarian
>why not become liberal
>the racism is over the top
>trust me
>rubs nose
see pic related There's no middle ground with liberals.
>fellow nahtzee here
It's like the shills aren't even trying anymore.