Why do you believe in the Bibel

Hi, I was raised by atheist parents and became an agnostic when i started to be a scientist.

I would like to have a discussion about God with some rational believers. I wont be offensive and i will carefully read your arguments. Try to convince me to start believing if you will.

I don't understand why i should go from "i don't know if there is a god" to "i am convinced there is a god". if god would talk to me, and present him to me, then i would happily start believing. But that didnt happen yet, nor do i know anyone who has spoken to god. The only "evidence" are ancient text. and there are many different such texts about god that all talk about it differently.

I heavily believe in the big bang, for example, as i have actual evidence that suggests the big bang. I'm fine with the possibility that a "god" or a higher power caused the big bang. But then I don't see why this god should talk to us specifically, when he could as well talk to any other of the infinitely many planets. And why would he talk us into fighting, by allowing different religions.

>only my religion is true

But why do you think so? There is a strong correlation between the believes among generations of the same people, so you are mostly just accepting the word of your parents.

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Well the most convincing argument that i ever heard is from Rene Descartes stating this :"P1. We have ideas of many things

P2. These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside of us.

P3. One of these ideas is the idea of God (a necessary, perfect being)

P4. This idea could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect is greater than its cause.

P5. Therefore the idea must have been caused by something outside of us that has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.

P6. But only God has these properties.

P7. Therefore God must be the cause of the idea we have of him.

C. Therefore God exists."
If you wish to research more about this theory you can google "Trademark Argument".

No one can convince you of anything. They can offer the evidence and the philosophy and the reasoning, but you can choose to reject these things for any reason at all, and those reasons will of course be perfectly "reasonable" to you because they are determined by your state of mind and your preconcieved notions of reality. True objectivity is impossible when dealing with religion, and therefore no one is superior on the basis of his reasoning. If you reject God for "intelligent" reasons you are just as damned as the man who rejects God for "silly" reasons. If the idiot accepts Christ he will be just as saved as the genius who accepts Christ.

God is not your play-thing who must come at your beck and call and present Himself to you whenever you begin to feel doubt. You must approach Him. He has already approached you, sent you prophets and miracles, given you Scripture and teachers, and even offered up His only Begotten Son as a Sacrifice for you. Further, let us say He offered you signs. Would you then believe in Him, or would you believe the signs? What then if Satan, disguised as an angel of light, were to come and offer signs? Would you then believe him, because he offers you signs?

Your arguments will inevitably be incredibly weak for anyone who has studied the issue from the Christian side because you cannot even begin to approach the issue from what we consider a rational starting point. If an intelligent Protestant or Orthodox or Catholic begins arguing with another intelligent Christian of a different tradition or denomination, they can have a discussion of value because they understand the way to discuss certain key fundamentals. However, an atheist can never have an intelligent discussion with a Christian, because he does not have any fundamantal understanding of the topic and therefore the "conversation" will always simply be a teaching event where the Christian attempts to educate the atheist.

>02 N
When you believe its easy to accept these things.But people who are skeptical of religion just want physical proof,something that they acknowledge with their senses.But our senses are so flawed,we cannot sense everything that exist,like a worm doesn`t know if a human passes by it,it just isn`t aware of it.

Nobody knows shit and if they say they do they are liars. Period.

Indeed.

40
He has blinded their eyes
and numbed their hearts
lest they see
or comprehend
or have a change of heart-
and I should heal them.
41 Isaiah uttered these words because he had seen Jesus' glory, and it was of him he spoke.
John 12:40-41

archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/125637346/#125637346

[S]ince I am a thinking thing, and have in me an idea of God, whatever finally the cause may be to which my nature is attributed, it must necessarily be admitted that the cause must equally be a thinking thing, and possess within it the idea of all the perfections that I attribute to the divine nature.

—René Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy

I really appreciate Descartes work dealing with existence. The above argument is the result of rational reasoning, but there are premises i cannot fully agree with.

>The cause of an effect must contain at least as much reality as the effect.

This for example i dont agree with. Even though i have no clear definition of reality, i cannot exclude the possibility that reality can be increased by causal processes.

But thank you very much! Thats exactly the stuff i'd like to hear.

Why do you want to be convinced on a matter of faith? You misunderstand faith entirely, Science man.

I was an athiest, anfd an agnostic. I had a very strong desire to learn about faith because I beleived it to be real, just not for me as I had no understanding of it. It's been 10 years and there is little chance I'll be joining a church soon, but I am utterly convinced faith is real and it is the hardest, most unteachable thing for a skeptical materialist to wonder about. Good fucking luck, if you're sincere. Your brain is going to hurt. Watch yourself if your inquiry is motivated by destructive critique.

Nothing in the Bible contradicts the big bang theory.

Nor does it contradict the theory of evolution.

Both of these explained as you must to a person who lived before microscopes, telescopes, Sir Issac Newton, or Darwin, or Carl Sagan.

People flip over the timeline. I believe that to be a translation error.. should have read: the next big thing was.. but somehow got turned into: the next day..

The Bible was written several thousand years ago, has been translated between unrelated languages many times, and has parts missing.

My region's favorite is the "King James Version"

VERSION.

Give that some thought before getting overly critical.

>Nothing in the Bible contradicts the big bang theory.

>Nor does it contradict the theory of evolution.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It doesn't.

Perhaps you're illiterate.

It's all right there in Genesis.

Dumbass.

I am impressed by this. Never have i heard such an argument before.

I agree with you that true objectivity is impossible and that no reasoning is superior. All i know to be true could as well be nonsense, so i ultimately know nothing, (except that i exist hehe).

Can i ask you, how did you choose your religion, or interpretation thereof. Do you think the other religions are wrong to some extent? How do you approach this thing?

archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/125637346/#125637346

Two catholic generals. It had good desicussion.

>we all come from Adam and Eve
>7 billion humans all come from the same genetic lineage
>this does not contradict evolution

my sides

big bang is the moment of creation of the universe and a process kickstarted by god. His hand guides it, not random chance.

evolution is the moment of creation of life and a process kickstarted by god. His hand guides it, not random chance.

the whole old testament is meaningless so technically can't a christian believe in the big bang theory?

>agnostic

Are you agnostic about the tooth fairy?

>evolution is the moment of creation of life

Le what? No it isn't, evolution is an ongoing process that happens as we speak. The Bible says g*d created a man out of clay and a woman out of a rib. We know that's not true, we know men and woman came from Chimpanzees / monkeys / our last genetic ancestor. Seems contradictory.

>Why do you want to be convinced on a matter of faith?

I am okay with there being faith. I am even fine with occultism. There surely are things that go beyond my comprehension. I'm, however, asking specifically about why people focus so much on one path of faith.

yes

I agree that the creationist or literal interpretation of the bible is nonsense. But if you look at it through the lens of human history, you cannot debunk it with modern science. See it as stories told by believers. They were not trying to stay scientifically sound, but to convey the message.

Yup.. illiterate.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

There were already people when he Created Adam and Eve. Eve is a Fucking clone, btw. Caused a deep sleep? Made from Adam's rib? Closed up the wound?

Adam was different. Possibly the beginning of cognitive reasoning is human evolution. They were in a different place with different foods they were told not to eat.

Also, Adam was not part the "our" referred to earlier. Adam was God's alone.

You miss the best parts when you try so hard to take it as fact, when it's really one guy's take of the situation, who lived at least 7,000 years ago.

DUMBASS

>you cannot debunk it with modern science.

I can and did.

>I leave the possibility open that the tooth fairy and santa claus exist

You're just an intellectual coward and fence sitter.

>There were already people when he Created Adam and Eve

Nowhere in your post is this claim backed up by proof.

>You're just an intellectual coward and fence sitter.

That may be true. But science has shown us many times that the deeper we dig, the more fucked up it gets. It is always silly to assume something without evidence. Even the principle of causality is questioned on the subatomic scales. So calling me a coward for not dismissing improbable things is not very scientific. True science stays open for even the strangest things.

I don't care what you believe.

Don't concern yourself with me either.

The Bible does NOT contradict science. Stupid Bible -thumpers interpretations of the Bible do. Dumbasses like you trying to pretend it's anything other than a guy giving his very best interpretations of how things he could NEVER fully understand came to pass.

Now that we know what really happened, the Bible makes more sense. Not less.

You aren't smart enough to see through the eyes of those guys, and see the truth.

That is why you fail.

"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

Christopher Hitchens.

>Stupid bible-thumpers that don't completely change what it says in the Bible so they can try to reconcile all the retarded shit in it and act like they know something the other Billion Christians on Earth don't know

You're pathetic. Lunch-tray style pick-and-choose the good parts Christianity, typical American.

>True science stays open for even the strangest things.

True science does not leave open the possibility for the tooth fairy or God just because the inventors of that character purposefully designed it to never have (or need) the possibility of evidence. That's infantile.

Failing in what? Just because im not dismissing something, doesnt mean im accepting it.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_doesn't_know_everything

I was raised a believing Catholic and everything I have seen has confirmed my beliefs. I have always respected authority, and I believe that manhood is determined by duty and honor, humility and acceptance. I do not give myself very much credit for being intelligent or particularly discerning. I like the fact that the Church demands my obedience and submission, and I love that God openly proclaims that He knows better and that my only job is to listen and obey.

I believe any religion that does not glorify, praise, and worship the Christ as the Living Son and Lamb of God is inherently wrong and any value therein derived from it is either accidental or is just another case of God drawing good water from a foul source. I recognize that much of my personal arguments are circular, but I am not much bothered by this because I am not responsible and in fact reject responsibility for the justification of my beliefs. That is, quite simply, above my pay-grade. However, being that I believe agnosticism and fence-sitting are somewhat craven philosophies of men who refuse to take stand for fear of being wrong, I unwavering do take a position, plant my flag, and defend said flag to the best of my abilities, which are admittedly never quite up to the task. If I am mocked for this or seen as a fool, then I shall see this as simply another cross to bear and I will praise the Lord God for allowing me to be humbled yet further. For I believe that in me there is nothing good at all, and all good that is in me is the Holy Spirit; and that if I were left to my own devices I should be the worst of all men. Every time I have allowed my own will and intelligence to guide my actions and beliefs I have fallen into despair, degeneracy, and failure. Pride assaults me and carries me down into a living grave. When I humble myself and purposefully make myself less, I find that the Holy Spirit is allowed to speak and act through me and through Him I am raised up.

>True science does not leave open the possibility for the tooth fairy or God just because the inventors of that character purposefully designed it to never have (or need) the possibility of evidence. That's infantile.

With the same logic you could dismiss the multiverse theory, because it is, in its basic form, not falsifiable. thought many scientific papers are written under this assumption.

I feel numb. I want to be healed and blessed and change my life.

>DoyoubelieveinGod.jpeg

I think you're on the wrong board

I didn't change anything.

I have a different interpretation due to reading it with the full knowledge of proven science.

Other people are quick to throw out science in favor of faith.. makes THEM feel like super Christians. Makes me tell people that I'm not Christian, because I don't believe hardly anything they do.

I had a Christian inform me that dinosaurs weren't real, as they aren't mentioned in the Bible.

Couldn't stop myself from blurting out that, I see, so those skeletons I saw in person as a child at the museum must have been dragon bones, because they were real enough..

I do have fun.. probably shouldn't..

That particular theory is certainly falsifiable. Some day science may advance far enough to let us see farther back into the big bang and may be we can see other universes not causally linked to one another. Hasn't been falsified =/= unfalsifiable

You didn't change anything you just say that in the Bible it says there were other people besides Adam and Eve (canon Dogma for christcucks) but you don't give any evidence to back that up. You quote random passages at me that aren't related to what you're talking about, just like every other insane theist on Sup Forums.

>However, being that I believe agnosticism and fence-sitting are somewhat craven philosophies of men who refuse to take stand for fear of being wrong, I unwavering do take a position, plant my flag, and defend said flag to the best of my abilities(...)

That is a very honest statement, and i fully respect your believes.

I have learned a lot ITT about religion.

Contemplate these things:

Our Father
>For He is our Father, not by our blood or our merit, but because He has adopted us and through the merits of His Son Jesus Christ, who so loved us that he sacrificed himself upon the Cross that we might be made worthy in and through him.
Who Art in Heaven
>For God is in Heaven, and seated next to the Father is Jesus Christ who has made a place ready for us, and I tell you that in mere moments you shall join him in paradise, and shall never hunger, or thirst, or be mournful again.
Hallowed be THY name.
>For God is a good God and His name is Holy. Never call on Him in vain, but always give honor to His name.
THY kingdom come, THY will be done.
>Our will is the will of damnation. God has conquered our will and given us freedom from the bonds of slavery and death. For we are born in sin and must all die in sin, and must act only in sin. Except insofar as we allow His will to be done in and through us.
On Earth as it is in Heaven.
>For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, and in doing so He saved the world and opened the gates of Heaven.
Give us this day, our daily bread
>Do not only pray for great things, but also offer even the smallest of things up to God, for He is Lord of all Things and all Things shall come from him.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
>For we were once slaves, but now are free; thus should we, who neither deserve nor earn our freedom, then hold other men as slaves? Should we, who were forgiven the Ultimate Debt not forgive those who hold a small debt to us?
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
>God will never tempt you. God will never give you a burden you cannot handle. God is Love, and He leaves the 99 sheep to find the Lost Sheep, and carries the Lost Sheep back to the fold in his bosom, and comforts all who wail and mourn. God is Love.
For THINE is the Kingdom, the POWER, and the GLORY, now and FOREVER.

How do you justify agnostism as a religious belief? Does that not still require you to reject all organized dogmatic faiths?

Those are the passages that say there were other people.

I must go.. I have to go to work.. sorry, this has been fun..
Maybe I'll come laugh at you again next time I see a thread like this.

Total nonsense. The argument is, if you can imagine something, then it must exist. By this same logic, Sauron, the Jedi, Care Bears, and any other imaginary character are real. Now if you'll excuse me, I just created a Millennium Falcon in my minds eye and am about to do a Kessel Run.

>Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

>27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Literally point out to me like I'm 5 years old where it says here "there were other humans besides Adam and Eve".

>b-but I have to g-go

>
>will always simply be a teaching event where the Christian attempts to educate the atheist.

The universe is everything by definition. So everything we ever experience is within said universe. There is no experience made by us that lies beyond our universe. The multiverse theory states that there are other universes. So we, by definition, cannot falsify this theory.

If we ever find another universe, then its by definition part of our universe, and we have not found another universe.

Of course there are extensions to the theory that allow for falsifiability, but I'm not talking about them.

checked

I dont see agnosticism as a religion.

Not a Christian, not sacrificing my job over this argument.

Send a better way to talk and we'll continue this in the morning when I get off work.

Say this prayer every morning and every night, and then also say this prayer:

Oh Holy Spirit, You are the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. You are the Spirit of truth, love and holiness, proceeding from the Father and the Son, and equal to Them in all things. I adore You and love You with all my heart. Teach me to know and to seek God, by whom and for whom I was created. Fill my heart with a holy fear and a great love for Him. Give me compunction and patience, and do not let me fall into sin.
Amen

No matter how far you fall, God is MIGHTY and His arm can reach down into any depth and lift you out of the clutches of evil.

No matter what you have done. God is FORGIVING and He will not accuse. God redeems all those who love Him and casts down their Accuser (who is Satan) into the flame and forgets all sins and makes you as white as snow and as innocent as the Lamb.

No matter what you do, God will always forgive you and only requires that you ask of it and believe that He will give it. For God is happy to see His little children come to Him in love and trust, and gives everything to His children and eases all their burdens. The Good Shepard protects his sheep, and before his mighty staff and unbreakable sword, all wolves and beasts shall flee and shall never touch his lambs.

You are not an orphan. You have a Father in Heaven who loves you. You have a Brother in Heaven who dies for you and is risen up again through his own Majesty and Grace. You have a Healer and Companion who is Spirit and will break your hardened heart and enkindle the fires of eternal love within you.

I pray for you now, and will pray for you tonight.

>Use facts to give me faith
Not something like that.
Finish your bottle and you'll find your answer.

dirty bible-believing scumbags
my.mixtape.moe/elownw.opus

There is no argument, I won the argument.

>b-be my friend and talk to me pls

how pitiful

...

This kind of thing is the reason why religion is mostly picked up when we are children.
Rational-minded adults don't just pick up religion because we have developed our critical thinking faculties. Unless youre a drug addict or something

t. afraid Atheist edgelord

woah rly mkes u thnk

Oh Loving Jesus,
Forgive us our sins
And save us from the fires of Hell.
Lead all souls to Heaven,
Especially those most in need of THY mercy.
Amen

...

>Reading the Bible in English translation
>Acting like you can have any meaningful opinion on its contents

Lol y tho

>the "conversation" will always simply be a teaching event where the Christian attempts to educate the atheist
that's every single debate anyone has had ever regardless of subject

newsflash: the atheist is trying to educate you as well

Christians of most any sect think those of a different sect are going to hell for worshiping god incorrectly

P.S. satan isn't real. it's a conflation and misinterpretation. satan only exists in the old testament as an "adversary". an angel (not a specific one) of god sent to test man. new testament fucked it up and made him an entity. he's further fucked up what with hellfire and brimstone sermons and dante's inferno.

you can't convince someone to join your religion unless you tell them they're going to be punished for not joining it either during their life or after it

God is the manifestation of the will of it's people. If enough people believe in truth, responsibility and individuality in any form, only then will you have a divine right and human rights.

8 we cannot perceive perfection, nor what we fully are, and our perception is is flawed and incomplete. And we ourselves are incomplete, so we could only come up with ideas of what we are based upon what we factually know, and we can only come up with ideals that do not yet exist based upon what we factually know and then base the actual ideals on what wee factually know.

Since we are wholly not ourselves because we are not ever fully one state but orbiting one state to another somewhat linearly, we can guide ourselves and be outside ourselves.

The only case for God is that we are not all ourselves(meaning not just the self we guide but our selves in general), and our surroundings are not all ourselves and neither (most of it) is it fully itself, and what we strive for is not ourselves but towards a different state and place. The plan could be God itself as well as everything could be God itself, and random occurrences do happen when God is an entity that does not exercise full control.

>rational believers.
They don't exist. Oxymoron.

hi, a rational scientist (molecular biology) here and a devout Catholic (hate this Pope).

too worn out from all the past discussions, but me, i followed a series of logical steps after seeing some of the truly staggering finds in molecular biology and mathematics.

everything can be argued, but when confronted with a series of questions on the 'evolution' of DNA Helicases, clotting cascades, mega -enzymes, the atheist argument crumbles into guesswork and laughable suppositions.

truth is, they begin to throw around the word 'evolution' like we use creation: to explain things they really don't understand, nor could realistically come about.

Once the massive finesse of biological engineering is brought forth on the molecular biological level, plus all the mathematics that point to the uniqueness of life, work in dark matter/dark energy, I have a very, very strong faith.

Thing is, people have to be versed in all this to truly debate it, plus have a good grasp of history. Very few have this. If lacking, then it dissolves into these weak atheist 'nuh-uh, prove it' arguments. i mean, they wouldn't understand the proofs and science anyway.

here in my hometown of san diego we have atheists that set up their desk and tent in Balboa Park, I shut them down routinely. They retort with, 'oh, you know wordplay tricks. you need to debate with so-and-so.' -they always refer to someone else when the start losing.

so if they ultimately don't understand the physical universe, why are they telling people what to, and what not to believe?

they should just shut up. faith will always be uncertain, thats why its faith. you have it or you don't. if you dont, fine.

The moment a supernatural being is introduced into a logical syllogism, it stops being logical.

Indeed, in any subject where one is an expert and the other is a layman, the expert will always have to teach the layman or there can be no discussion. Debate cannot occur between a layman and an expert, only discussion and only then as a teaching event, as I said.

The atheist is trying to believe and wants me to do the heavy lifting. He is not aware that I cannot force belief upon him and God will not force it upon him, thus though his cries are pitiful, they are quite simply unable to be answered.

Christians are just as arrogant, flawed, and wrong-headed as any other group of people. Take that however you wish.

Satan is the Accuser and the Father of Lies. He desires that all men should be cast down into the eternal death of sin. But God has bound him up and stolen from his treasury. He is powerless before the Faithful and even the meanest and worst of sinners can be saved from the clutches of Satan with a single word from Christ, who is master of all Things.

The Old Testament prepares man for the coming of the Messiah, the Savior of the World, the Giver of Life, the Fountain of Eternal Waters. The New Testament opens our eyes to the Glory of the Lamb, educates us in the Law, prepares us for the wars that shall come, and gives hope to the downtrodden and beaten. They are seemless and one. There is no part of one that is not part of the other. Like a body has many members, but all of them are of the body and connected to the body. So is the Scripture, a living Word which is One.

good enough for Hegel good enough for me tbqh senpai

oh yeah, House, Hollywood. boy, his scriptwriter sure did make him seem intelligent, didn't he?! ya gotta love Hollywood, they make stuff look so realistic

>Your arguments will inevitably be incredibly weak
>You can't prove anything is real therefore god is real
When it comes to weak arguments, you started it.

>for anyone who has studied the issue from the Christian side
>{{{ studied }}}
Are we talking *number of angels on the head of a pin* studied? Because that shit is laughable.

>When it comes to weak arguments, you started it.
I did not have to strawman anyone in order to make my point. I do not have to lie or posture in order to make my point. I am not afraid of being wrong, or of seeming silly in any man's eyes. If you worry about these things and must be dishonest lest you risk being made to look a fool, then by all means, continue as you are.

>Are we talking *number of angels on the head of a pin* studied? Because that shit is laughable.
If you were Christian, you would know what I am talking about or it would be very easy to explain. If you are an atheist, you will have a very difficult time understanding, and it will take a lot of effort on my part. I am not sure it's worth such effort. Convince me it is, and I will attempt to do so. Understand that I don't particularly care if you think this is a cop-out either. Think whatever you want. Your thoughts and feelings don't really concern me all that much. And while I care about your soul more than you do, I don't care enough to beat my head against a wall.