Hello Comrades. This general is for the discussion of Marxism-Leninism, the ideology of revolutionary socialism and communism.
Communism is the next stage of humanity following the capitalist stage.
What exactly is communism according to Marxist-Leninists:
>Communism is a stage of society in which the productive infrastructure is socially owned, and goods are produced not in order to sell for profit, but in order to meet a social need. >Communism in it's full form is a stateless, classless society that follows the maxim "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." >To achieve such a society Marxism-Leninism teaches us that we must replace the capitalist state, which is controlled by the capitalist class, by a socialist state, which is controlled by the working class. Then, a period of class struggle follows in which the capitalist class is liquidated by the working class. When the capitalist class has been completely vanquished, there will be only one class, the working class, and eventually the functions of the state will become indistinguishable from the functions of the society as a whole, and the state as such will 'wither away' as Marx said. marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/
Please fuck off, Marxism in general is cancer that most of us recognise is helping keep us unemployed because it's transformed into racial hierarchies rather than economic hierarchies. Everything Marxism does is basically identify who is doing well and put them down a notch, it's literally childish zero sum ideas, the political position.
Nathan Stewart
Go back to your /leftypol/ jack off sesh and stay there. Saged and hidden.
Adrian Brown
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Levi Baker
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Elijah Gomez
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Christopher Brown
Kill yourself faggot.
Jack Wright
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Colton Bell
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Caleb Thomas
So much butthurt from pol today..
Thomas Richardson
Hey asshole. Look where you are at. Now get out, you aren't welcomed here.
Owen Walker
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James Phillips
Get fucked you little faggot.
Christopher Peterson
Why can't lefties meme?
Christian Rivera
little faggot like Franco? I mean, he was very feminine short man. His father would bully him calling him paquita and marica (faggy)
Why can't Sup Forums actually debate opposing viewpoints instead of just spouting memes?
Lincoln Bailey
this there's such a right wing circlejerk on pol
John Lee
I´d love to, but commies either just throw memes around, try to convince you with false data or just dont answer if you state Facts So fuckem
Benjamin Walker
rightwing do the same tho, so....
Luke Cook
So what does "the workers own the means of production" mean? How does it function?
Ayden Allen
every time i make honest criticisms of communism, they ignore it and continue posting communist traps. having communists say Sup Forums is a circlejerk is better than wasting my time talking to thin air.
Thomas Hall
The right wing circle jerk started with Trolls that laughed and then sobbed at what they had created. Or they are still laughing to this day.
Austin Richardson
Depends on the kind of socialist. Market socialist: Literally just cooperative owned by the workers competing with each others Anarcho-syndicalist: Unions working together to produce the needed goods Anarcho-communist: Communes owning the offices, factories etc. and deciding democratically what need to be produced Marxist-Leninst: State-owned companies and the state or regions deciding what to produce
Nolan Rivera
Workers owning the means of production is exactly how it sounds. The workers as a whole are the business instead of a suit running the place. They vote who is in charge instead of the guy with all the money deciding how he can make more of it by fucking over everyone else.
Evan Nguyen
this pretty much obviously you'd get more money as a worker because there is no money going away as profit to your boss
Bentley Ortiz
I love how 90% of the commies are from countries that never experienced communism
goodbye and good riddance
Aaron Sanders
Except they didn't buy any of the means of production, did they? Somehow all of the people ever who talk about this conveniently forget to mention that the plan is to take it by force. S T E A L I N G >they owning it is not fair >let's take it >yeah that's MUCH more fair mate
Fuck you all.
Eli Cooper
You do realize that communism has never been attempted in a pure sense. Just as no country is purely capitalist. I'm also a libertarian so fuck off. I just would take the worker being propelled than a suit so he can make more money.
Nicholas Miller
You have no idea why you are wrong, yet you talk shit. Keep it up.
Jaxon Robinson
>You do realize that communism has never been attempted in a pure sense.
Xavier Brown
This is how it worked previously, and if you had your way, it would work like this again. You're fooling nobody.
Jason Collins
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Aaron Flores
i'm gonna have a fucking aneurism if i see another marxist with 8 chromosomes speak ever again
Julian Diaz
fucking yanks educating us on how communism works . how ...how would we ever know
Ryan Lopez
Fine I'll humor you. You are looking at it from a capitalist point of view. That the means of production are going to be used to produce and "Steal" from the 'fine' gentlemen that paid to have it built. However, what you are completely oblivious to, is that in a purely communist society the means of production would be built by the government then given to the workers that are predetermined to have suited skills and qualities for that job. There will still be a private sector in communism, it's just the needs of the people are preserved before the dickhead so he has the ability to compete against a government entity as is done in our country. The truth is if a government decided to actually compete in a domestic market they would win every time.
Gavin Hall
>Communism has never been attempted in a pure sense Nor will it because communism is inherently flawed
Brayden Phillips
>Differentiating people on the basis of skill >Real communism
Hunter Davis
All ideological systems are perfect, the issue is the people implementing them, not the other way around.
Leo Barnes
Lmao dumb cunt can't read.
Connor Lee
>S T E A L I N G nah this only seems stealing to you because of current capitalist property right. If you lived in a socialist society it would be natural to you that the workers own the place they work at
Lucas Evans
But theres allways anough right wing trash on Sup Forums who is completely honest in their viewpoints I had a lot of very interesting debates on Sup Forums with rightwingers NOT ONE with a commie
William Diaz
>All ideological systems are perfect u wut now m8 ?
Ryder Jones
So should we allow AI to run our governments? Who would enforce their will? At any point that people get involved there is potential for abuse.
Nathan King
Uhhh yes, almost every communist says that there's people with different skills >muh communist want everyone to be clones
Ayden Hill
You're having one right now Ask anything you want
Jordan Bell
But that pretty much what Mao and Pol Pot wanted And Mao controlled 1/5th of the earths Population at the time
Luke Lewis
It's true my friend, in a perfect setting and run at the way they are intended by the right group of people. Every economic, ideological, and system that has been put forth and tried by a group of people can work as long as the group is willing to stick it out and not lose their shit as soon as they get a bit of power.
Christian Price
>creating an intellectual bourgeoisie
Daniel Watson
Why be a commie when you could have a functional society? Have you ever lived under a communist regime? Why is communism a good thing when it has killed 100+ million people since it's inception?
Nathaniel Barnes
>However, what you are completely oblivious to, is that in a purely communist society the means of production would be built by the government then given to the workers
See, what you're completely oblivious to, is that the above is precisely the line that is used to get people hooked, right before screaming "fetch!" and then "borrowing" private property.
>muh pure communist state Yeah? Go fucking build it from the ground up if you like it so much. Oh, you don't want to? Say, friend, would you prefer revolution? Gee, I wonder how that would go.
And there we go. "Redefining" property. It's not stealing, we'll just change how fucking basic concepts work. Why not go ahead and redefine "racist" too? Oh, yeah. I forgot.
Asher Brown
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Lucas Ramirez
How come things like the Holodomor, The great Leap Forward, Pol Pots culling etc. who are IN LINE with communist Ideology (eliminating the class enemy) never discussed even though they killed far more People than any other effort by a political Party Killing the Priests, the Kulaks, the Farmers in Ukraine is part of the Class struggle, yet you want to tell me that communism isnt bad ? How to defend this ?
Michael Bennett
Not true if someone works more he got more money, and I don't think there's a single communist anymore who supports Sup Forums pot
Isaac Baker
>Why is communism a good thing when it has killed 100+ million people since it's inception? How many have died of capitalism? 16,000 people die of hunger every day even thought we produce enough food for everyone >muh capitalist efficency
Jayden Phillips
Communist has very, very different wings and forms, for example Totalism, Syndicalism and Radicak Socialism (which might interest you). Different political figures also added different viewpoints on certain topics, I.e. state ownership of companies and trade unions.
Jaxon Moore
They got killed after they got warned many times to follow the law. The kulaks were letting starve many farmers and hoarding everything a.k.a murderers But many socialists nowadays want no capital punishment
Samuel Diaz
Nice 1/3 questions answered That's how you know you're talking to a commie, they cannot justify their nonsense, only point elsewhere and say that shit's worse there. If you fed as many people as you answered those questions, 2/3 of your population is starved.
William Morales
So the leadership still gets deferred to a higher power and as production complexity increases how can the industry remain stable as the voting hierarchy tips toward an more imbalanced worker:administrator ratio where very fewer and fewer individuals have any idea of management requirements?
But you can't really do anything with that money because building a machine to sustain yourself would inevitably lead to it being seized by the state/people. What mechanism exists to reward or elevate exceptional individuals?
Julian Anderson
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Cooper Stewart
But not in a capitalist Society, where do These People starve ? Most of them in Africa, a continent where you often dont have a rule of law, no Government to take controll, and religious and tribal affairs still going on today Capitalism only crops up in places where you have stable conditions, there isnt capitalism in those places, the economic System there is called Feudalism, cant blame capitalism for the faults of another economic system
Jonathan Turner
Okay I'll tell you more the reason many people died in china wasn't the great leap forward but the famine. And many historians nowadays believe that less people died than ususal because there were redistribution policies
Levi Russell
>So the leadership still gets deferred to a higher power and as production complexity increases how can the industry remain stable as the voting hierarchy tips toward an more imbalanced worker:administrator ratio where very fewer and fewer individuals have any idea of management requirements? Well if it's a job where no administration is required there would be none (remember capitalism often invents managers to suck more money out of the workers) and it would be different because they wouldn't be paid THAT much more than a normal worker
Ayden Campbell
But you guys realize that you're debating about Stalins personality cult and his abstract form of Totalism, rather then Communism itself, right?
Luis Walker
See ? thats allready fucking wrong. There wasnt a clear Definition of who was a Kulak They were farmers just like the rest, yes they were the ones that were economicaly more successfull, but they didnt have any form of power. They didnt take the equippment from other farmers, the Bolsheviki took THEIRS
Liam Sanders
>What mechanism exists to reward or elevate exceptional individuals? They would get paid a bit more and social rewards, people would like you more because you're such a good worker
Joshua Lopez
Then tell me how the fuck HIGHER COMMUNISM should ever work ? That literally just works if you breed People to become sadomasochistic workslaves thanks, but no thanks
Brody Gutierrez
>It wasn't political violence and poor government policy that killed those people! It was because no one had food!
Connor Phillips
No they are dying in South America, Africa and Asia that's like 4/5 of the world population >not true scotsman/capitalism not this again, it is even more capitalist than america and europe, because america and europe get to live off the underpaid work in the third world
Henry Allen
this, I'm just defending stalinism as devil's advocate it's not what I intend when I mean socialism. Socialism is democratic from the ground up and very libertarian instead of authoritarian
Cameron Walker
Well, I'm not a comunist, but it's true that China is currently growing more than most of the countries in rhe world with a comunist government.
Evan Reyes
saying >Every economic, ideological, and system that has been put forth and tried by a group of people can work as long as the group is willing to stick it out and not lose their shit as soon as they get a bit of power. is simply mentally retarded . systems are not inherently perfect that's why they've been changed throughout history . That's unless you're talking about people LARP-ing and pretending that everything is ok while the country burns We don't though . We don't produce food to "feed the world" we produce it to sell it.
You have no right to steal my food just cause i don't want to share it
Austin Jones
How do you know, since it hasn't been tested at all (thanks to the whole Trotzki-Stalin-UdSSR shit)? Plus, how can it be worse then the current state, where workers get less wage by year?
I'm honestly curious, because the economic problems seem imminent. And that's why I'd rather discuss how it MIGHT work. Trade unions? More state control? A concept like modern China?
Dylan Clark
There was. They didn't just go there one day and killed them. They knew what they were risking. But they thought: I surely need 10 metric tons of grain for myself, let's starve other people lel
Dominic Jones
That's questionable. China fluffs it's GDP with ghost towns and shit.
Jason Turner
A bit off topic however, my main love of debating with those that believe that ideas are inherently evil is they are completely oblivious to the faults of their own chosen 'evil' blindly accepting that their chosen system is the best despite the fact they are all terribly run. Just because one allows for exploitation better than others does not mean it's better than the others. Just means you are more of a dick. Also once again I'm not even communism but, writing off systems for 'muh's better' show's your inability to comprehend basic knowledge outside of your own flawed head.
Ayden Baker
>sadomasochistic workslaves are you talking about capitalism. there are people working 16 hours a day. or working two jobs. People fucking commiting suicide because of capitalism
Lincoln Morales
>South America, Africa and Asia >more capitalist than america and europe
Jeremiah Parker
China had many famines even before Mao, and more people died then
Carter Garcia
A good summary imho. What we need is to take a step back, evaluate the current the situation of and discuss alternatives.
Jaxon Parker
>people would like you more because you're such a good worker
You mean the media funded by a totalitarian state would like you more. The people wouldn't give two shits. Well, that's not even true. These "star workers" were the subject of many (mostly illegal) jokes in the past.
Connor Torres
Go live in Cuba.
Kayden Price
>Mao did nothing wrong, people have been dying forever!
Aiden Howard
Ok, I'll tell you why I became a communist (economically). Think about automation. The reason why it's been shit in europe and america since 2008 is because capitalism ---> more automation --> lower wages/more unemployment --> people money for people to buy stuff ---> even less jobs They point is that this wouldn't have happened in a socialist society because with more automation you get less working hours for the same wage a.k.a. everyone gets the fruits of automation instead of just the few at the top (bankers, big business) who own all the machines and robots
Gabriel Murphy
Of course, it never really counts.
Ian Reyes
No true scotsman, you really dont know what that means, do you ? South america is divided in two zones Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, Peru, those are the "capitalist" countries (not really capitalist but free market System) is there a famine ? no shortages of any Kind ? no Now look at socialist Venezuela, one giant shitshow even though the got the most Oil in the fucking world. Now africa, Warlords pressing the blood out of the Poor is like Knights in Feudal Europe repressing the farmers 1000 years ago, this is Feudalism, not capitalism Dont confuse economic Systems Now lets look at China, which is synonimous with asia Yes they have capitalism, but not like we do, They got a one Party System, which means if you want any form of political power you gotta go there, they got 400 Million "middle class People" since they abolished communism, but they also have 600 Million fucking poor Rice farmers, who they can surpress however the hell they want, since One Party System= no Opposition, you cant compare their System with any European style System, and yet they are still better of than under communism
Joseph Brown
I didn't say that. I agree Mao was shit. But spouting capitalist propaganda is shit too
John Foster
WTF-dog pic user here. How do you rate modern China and Cuba? Is it Communism solely able to survive with Capitalists around it? Are there room for improvements, and especially for the workers and the poor?
Angel Kelly
Ok buddy, just cover your eyes and ignore all the death and destruction, and soon enough we will have a perfect utopia, right? You delusional fuck. Anyone else > Commies
Xavier Bell
are you 14 or something ? Nobody is Standing there with a bayonett if you dont want to work 16 hours a day. Thats People just having fucked up priorities (I guess you are refering to Japan and yet they dont have a law where you have to work that Long) In Communist cambodia you had to work on the Rice fields. That was Pol Pot just taking the essence of Communism to the fullest degree.
Jace Cook
Hello gomrades! XDDDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of revolutionary socialism and gommunism.
Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.
Wat exagtly is gommunism according to gommies:
>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. XDDDD >Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :DDDD >To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all lol. When capitalists run away we win and I kill you all. Eventually the functions of state cease and state becomes murderous and indistinguishable from other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people. gommies.gom/fug/ gommies.gom/starve/
>Sdage one Bourgers aren't allowed to vode :DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.
>Sdade two Withering All beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary as beeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. Money is all ours.
>Sdage three Gommunism. No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.
>Sdage four Nod real gommunism. Move on to nexd goundry :DDDDDDD
Andrew Barnes
I'm more of a conservative myself, but I agree with the current problems of automation, which boosts productivity in one hand, but disfavor the workers on the other. I think part of communists ideas might help for a new economic system, which is - again, in my opinion- highly needed.
Nolan Torres
>socialist society >communism
Yeah, those are surely the same things. I'm not being sarcastic. Like, at all. LOL Echs-Dee.
Justin Edwards
>there are people working 16 hours a day. or working two jobs. People fucking commiting suicide because of capitalism >commiting suicide because of capitalism
What in god's name are you talking about. I live in a shit 2nd world country and i can easily not "working 16 hours a day. or working two jobs. People fucking commiting suicide because of capitalism"
Communists would FORCE PEOPLE to work UNPAID for the """BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE (as in all other people)""" in effectively every country they controlled
Josiah Hall
You are talking about countries that have chosen communism solely for the fact that it's able to keep it's people in check. Not because they like the system is introduces, therefore just as when liberals in our country introduce something say social security the 'good guys' to you all try and cut it. The true reason being is that it makes Liberals look good. The worse it performs the better same concept.
Alexander Howard
Hans, not every country contains abusable systems like ours (Arbeitslosengeld II).. They need to eat and pay rent. You know, basic stuff to survive?
Oliver Stewart
If you want to see communism tried to it s fullest look at cambodia, that pretty much was the essence, there IT WAS TRIED. The best System is a free market System, with a socialist touch. Here People are the most free and the wealthiest HIGHER COMMUNISM doesnt work What you see in europe today is just both sides (Capitalists and Socialists) attacking and slowly breaking the old System of the free market, slowly corrupting it The economic downturn is something you cant really Counter, since we dont have a cristal ball thats just life being shit
