I can't think of a way around a universal basic income. People are predicting 50% of jobs to be replaced with automation in the next two decades. We dont have enough work for seven billion people now.
Can any one name a work around? Killing a bunch of people off would work but most dont have the stomach for it.
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>People are predicting 50% of jobs to be replaced with automation in the next two decades.
Of current jobs that is. 100 years ago 50% of us worked on farms, today only 2% of us do. When we found new and better ways to do this job, those 48% didn't sit on their asses, they found new and better things to do that make other jobs more efficient.
We have plenty of work for people. But big business that has the jobs are cheap fuckers and want everything done by a few people as possible, on top of minimum wage increases, brought on by your common folk demanding more because they can't afford the things they need/want because prices are artifically high and corporations run solely for as much profit as possible.
Basically no one's aiming to pay for a decent society. So we haven't got one.
Maybe everyone can get a job filling in captchas because as a human I fail more than 50% of the time. Robots have got no chance.
Well production has never been higher or more efficient and yet we are seeing more and more families having to have both parents working
Do not think for a moment the powers that be will let you have free money or more leisure time, expect less, much less.
This.
If you don't get into something to do with power, maintenence or research, you're literally fucked. Even these aren't safe due to ai becoming a thing
make illegal to work more than 3 days/week
I can't consume and make greatest ally richer if I don't have a job/money.
think harder. more specifically think about what it would mean for there to be no work to do.
>>Can any one name a work around? Killing a bunch of people off would work but most dont have the stomach for it.
you don't have to actively kill them off, just stand around and let them die.
wait someones basically done it for you
>Basically no one's aiming to pay for a decent society. So we haven't got one.
People aren't willing to have a decent society, it's not the fault of corporations and their shitty pay.
People shovel garbage down their throats, turn a blind eye to bad practices, waste all their wealth on ridiculous shit, and so forth.
Here in the USA people are constantly complaining about minimum wage, yet they are fat, their children are fat, they make no significant effort to improve their skills or lives, and spend their money and time on stupid shit.
Self control and discipline breeds success.
And no one should get paid excessively for bottom bitch labor.
Those 48% are inspectors of inspectors of inspectors. Most people do not contribute in any way to making life better/easier.
if its like this will be wars now
Break down how you think UBC will be distributed.
It's economically impossible.
automation and the free market already give huge discounts to goods. That isa basic income right there.
A basic income will not make things affordable. You still won't be able to by much of anything on a meager stipend. an the high taxes would make the economy less efficient and productive, so prices would rise and you'd be outta luck, parasite.
I can't buy these huge discounts if I do not have work or money. I can not consume if I have nothing to trade. Its not a question of cheaper or affordable.
UBI is code for socialism/communism
I, for one, welcome our infinite leisure time utopian overlords.
This.
Basic income is the perpetuation of a capitalist system that is no longer needed in a world where work incentives are not called for.
Think about ways to ensure quality of life for everyone.
and then, foster your hobbies.
Also there's a collective-action problem.
Say one nation is gonna do UBI but others aren't. You need massive revenue to do UBI. Rich people and businesses move abroad to avoid the massive taxes or inflation that they know are ahead, to places that promise to be less confiscatory. Boom, all of a sudden your means of funding the program collapses, your nation has a bunch of people who want their check, but you've scared off all the people producing wealth, by promising that you'll steal that wealth and hand it out as UBI.
You aren't gonna get around this unless every major nation agrees to do UBI. Which won't happen since you can't get every major nation to agree on anything.
>Most people do not contribute in any way to making life better/easier.
that's a load of shit
if they didn't how are they getting paid?
did you tell the investors that the people they are employing are useless?
it is possible
the problem is you get more unemployment and the state/polity will experience accelerating capital consumption
it'll be a great party for 20 years but then when everything goes to shit they'll just blame capitalism again
It would've been fine if we'd just stuck to Nationalism.
>no 3rd world population boom
>no brain drain either, some 3rd world countries actually manage to improve themselves
>in the developed world, birthrates & jobs decline together while efficiency & earnings continue to rise
>emissions decline rapidly, no climate change hysteria
We could've been colonizing the stars...instead we're looking at a rapid decline into a polluted ethno-feudalist dystopia. We fucking blew it. Universal income is just the accelerated brainchild of welfare dysgenics, free money for the worthless people. It's an opiate until (((they've))) got enough machine servants (golems) to do the work, and enough drones to wipe out the beige goyim horde.
nationalism starts wars
wars cost money
Yeah. We have created so much fake jobs/busy work in the last century. Can you honestly not name any government jobs that have no reason to exist? No one in stupid shit like data entry? Take the dog dick out of your mouth and think for a moment.
The issue is that right now we still need people to do tasks. Soon, we don't need people to do a very large amount of tasks. This means that low and medium skilled work will not offer jobs to people anymore.
Space colonization could take care of the job scarcity problem. Though it would require massive investment into things that matter, which politicians will never do.
Why stop at "basic income"? Why not just give everybody enough money to be filthy stinking rich?
You communists think too small.
>implying space colonization matters
machines decimated the amount of low skilled work
so people upskilled. However, people are idiots, and only very few provide any real value, if you go by the 80/20 rule.
The ones left with a job are frantically trying to create work where none existed so they can justify their own positions. The fear of being unemployed keeps them shifting peoples desk arrangements and changing the names of things.
>No one in stupid shit like data entry?
what do you mean by stupid shit? what's stupid about this?
did you get turned down by a girl with a data entry job?
Currently only non necessary good are getting cheaper while necessary goods are actually getting more expensive
this doesn't make any sense
why would investors pay for people who do nothing?
Principal-agent problem. The interests of the owners and the managers don't line up perfectly. Or even very well.
we don't have to worry about 7 billion people fuckhead.
Society will always require human labor. Efficiencies in workplace production have displaced a percentage of jobs already and it is likely that improvements can be made with and without automation.
A universal income is a novel idea for a pseudo utopian society where basic goods are manufactured by automation. People will still want to work and contribute to society, however. Automation displaces one job and creates another, programmers and engineers will have their hands full.
We're talking about a lot of set up, take down, and maintenance.
>why would investors pay for people who do nothing?
they would not, which is why we're seeing more automation
They have nothing but incentive to spend a little capex to reduce the massive deadweight in wages/salary opex
This futher reduces the amount of available work to do at the top end, and increases the underemployment(people overskilled for their current position).
This means dick all for a government though, if they suddenly see their means of wealth generation shrink to a select few, they don't really give a fuck about their voters anymore as they provide so little value. They can tax the bots instead and give the bot makers the lions share.
There are not going to be enough position as programmers or engineers. You would need a handful to run a factory that would service a million people.
>unironically believing this
AI and robotic improvements are going to wipe out a massive number of jobs with no replacements.
It could be a great achievement. Humanity freed from drudgery. People doing "work" they find interesting and fulfilling instead of just trying to survive. Imagine working on FOSS, pursuing something scientific, traveling and photographing shit, or designing video game mods for free because fuck it, your needs are all fully met no matter what.
But I predict humanity will fuck it up so bad that there will be global strife, war, and death. Why? Because billionaire kikes will see automation as a way to concentrate even more wealth into their pockets. And cuckservatives will enable them with their "principles."
>Automation displaces one job and creates another,
That is already provably false. Most job creation in the west since at least the 90's has been in bullshit busy work "fields."
>programmers and engineers will have their hands full.
They're prospects are already dim thanks to mass immigration. Wait until AIs start to handle basic tasks.
But wouldn't this mean that we don't need mass immigration?
I thought we needed immigration because we need more people working.
Now you're telling me 50% of jobs are going to disappear.
It almost sounds like the entire situation would have resolved itself just fine if we hadn't imported people from the middle east.
>nationalism causes wars
>meanwhile the US and Europe have been involved in middle east proxy wars for nearly 2 decades for globalism
Might wanna scratch that hypothesis mate.
The (((globalists))) were the cause of WW2, the nationalists were just the ones who were set off to die for it.
youtube.com
The nuclear bomb is what prevents wars, not globalism. Your cousins up North only have a handful of them, and because of that they're allowed to run concentration camps and talk shit to the entire world. Meanwhile Gaddafi and Sadam are getting bored of their 72 virgins and wondering what went wrong.
I don't think UBI should come with no strings attached
If you're currently receiving it, and unemployed, you're 'encouraged' strongly by society to participate either online or in person in the furtherment of automation itself, in whatever capacity is available to you.
Of course, the disabled, blind, etc are exempt, and this is not a very enforceable rule since the welfare systems are replaced, theres nobody to police it.
This should eventually see more jobs replaced, and in turn more available taxation of the software/bots going into the UBI pool itself. And the harsh scenario of a manager forcing his charges to train the very systems that will be replacing them gets a little brighter.
>You would need a handful to run a factory that would service a million people.
Says the shithead who has never worked a day in his life and is hoping the government will become mommy and daddy for him paying his way in life.
You never answered my question though, why stop at just "basic" income? Why not give everyone enough money to be filthy stinking rich?
You haven't answered mine either. What do we do with seven billion people if we only have work for one billion? I've asked for a work around to something that seems inevitable. Do you have any suggestions to fix the problem a of mass automation/mass unemployment?
>I've never worked a white collar office job
>People are predicting 50% of jobs to be replaced with automation in the next two decades
Interdasting.
And what did people predict, Pray tell, last time We've had an industrial revolution?
What did Malthus predict last time it seemed like the world was overcrowded?
The job market changes, situations change.
>AI and robotic improvements are going to wipe out a massive number of jobs with no replacements.
Just like this newfangled automatic textile machine! What will our women do now that they don't have to pass most of the day mending or doing clothes?
>Rich people and businesses move abroad to avoid the massive taxes or inflation that they know are ahead, to places that promise to be less confiscatory.
But UBI would actually be leaner, cheaper system as it would trim out all the excess bureaucracy that currently exists for welfare.
Not an answer or an argument
Not really. You'd need more than the entire current federal budget to give every US adult $20k a year. Also it's gonna be a nonstarter to replace medicare and medicaid (or public health programs in other countries) with UBI, and say "well just pay for it out of the money we give you" So if you keep those massive healthcare entitlements, you're piling on several trillion dollars of spending. You can't save that much through eliminating some red tape. The program costs more than literally all of government already does.
>What do we do with seven billion people
Give everyone enough money to be filthy stinking rich. That'll solve everything.
You communists are really silly, seriously, if you're just going to give everybody free shit, why stop at just a commie-block housing cubicle and bread and vodka rations?
Hey it's your system that's fucked not mine.
Make robots illegal.
War will solve it.
UBI will just lead to elite oligarchs ruling and owning everything, drastically increases the wealth divide, eliminating the middle class.
war will come out of automation, if it doesnt come from globalism
>they would not, which is why we're seeing more automation
why would you automate a job that's useless?
That's the beauty of the future user. Nobody will need to have a stomach for it because the killing will be automated. :^)
yes, this is a problem.
but if the interests between the owners and managers diverge too much, the managers get booted.
businesses aren't bloating their labor force with "fake jobs" just for the sake of it
i run a small business and work within all sizes of companies in a consulting role
ask these people what they do and why they do what they do
i think you're confusing alienation with "fake jobs"
Ah, but the elite oligarchs are clever people.
They wil rule and own everything, whether or not their vehicle of justifying their control is neoliberalism or postmodern marxism.
cleansing nuclear fire.
WTF I love keynseian economics now.
>I can't think of a way around a universal basic income.
read Henry George, understand that all value comes from land, thus taxation of land based on use is the only moral way to tax
universal basic income is a bullshit scam, it proposes that value comes from government
value comes from the people and land
a dividend paid to the citizenry for corporate use of the commons is the only moral way to address this issue,
and to be fair this was supposed to be done the whole time it just wasn't because scumbag politicians gave away our rights for a fucking pie and a night with a hooker to corporations when the value of what the corporations got was astronomical, given away for nothing
Alaska pays a dividend to their citizens for corporate use of natural resources
we can go in this direction and charge telecommunications firms for use of the airspace, they can afford to pay a fair use for the part of the commons they profit from and in exchange the people will be distributed a fair share of the dividend of profit for the use of the public commons
>48% didn't sit on their asses, they found new and better things to do that make other jobs more efficient.
what will white collar workers like stock brokers do when the embedded systems take over their jobs? white collar workers are at the most risk of losing their job to automation
>Give everyone enough money to be filthy stinking rich. That'll solve everything.
we kind of already do that but it won't address the issue old money people will have which is they want exclusive rights and use of their own facilities where they don't have to mingle with disgusting plebs like us
>I can't think of a way around a universal basic income.
That's why you aren't in charge of anything, faggot.
>I can't think of a way around a universal basic income.
Well, you'll have to try, because paying people to sit on their ass leads to the disintegration of society, nigger.
>People are predicting 50% of jobs to be replaced with automation in the next two decades.
50% of jobs are always being replaced every two decades. Just because the cassette tape manufacturer shuts down doesn't mean that the Playstation 2 factory won't start up.
>We dont have enough work for seven billion people now.
It is no one's business to try and address the employment needs of every person on the planet all at once. That way lies madness. You start a task by breaking it into chunks.
>Can any one name a work around?
Yes, it's called taking care of your own. The joblessness within our borders is largely a product of unbalanced trade with foreign nations, a legacy of bad trade deals in years past. The solution is to re-impose import taxes and reduce the flow of foreign goods across our borders until we have rebuilt our economy again.
>Killing a bunch of people off would work but most dont have the stomach for it.
You'd be the first to go if that were to happen, count on it.
But when the government gives you a fuck-ton of money you can just buy all those facilities and do what you like with them.
>Alaska pays a dividend to their citizens for corporate use of natural resources
Implying no other state taxes corporations and redistributes the confiscated wealth. The only difference is that there are still more producers than takers in Alaska.
Option A.
Wake up and chill, play video games, go outside and socialise, travel, practise instruments, sports etc, learn fun hobbies and generally just have a relaxing lifestyle. Basically do whatever you feel like doing everyday.
Option B.
Years of education and late nights whilst everyone is out partying. Work tirelessly at something you have no real passion for, 40 hour work week til you can finally retire etc.
I dunno guys. Seems a difficult choice. Obviously most people would choose option A. Some will have no choice and will be quite happy with the fact. Others will join once they realise option B is for chumps. In the beginning that is. But over time this would mean it would become increasingly difficult for someone who's chosen option A to turn to option B. Because that gap between rich and poor will drastically increase. Leaving the options A's begging for scraps. Options B's will increasingly look down on option A's as cattle. Like the uber rich do now.
Why does this matter?
This is gonna turn out be some elysium type shit. You think theres a gap now between rich and poor? That $10,000 or whatever the UBI amounts too is going to be worthless. Literal scraps. And people are going to become dependent on it like most welfare people do. Anywho watch elysium, thats basically where this is going.
Automation is no where near replacing a single worker in the next 20 years. The amount of training, troubleshooting, engineering, writing, and effort to keep this systems stable is still get much in it's infancy. This is the way it goes 9/10 times.
>be me automation process control engineer.
>customer has a shitty and inefficient way of doing a task.
>See it and tell them we can automate it.
>They agree to purchase a system from me.
>Already there's 2 people working and being paid for a job
>I start writing the script and design the system
>make prototype.
>bring prototype to boss for inspection (3 people working)
>boss orders parts for production (minimum of 10 people working, not including those to manufacture and design the parts I need)
>build working unit and bring to customer
> teach customer how to use the system, teach operators how to use the system teach back up operators how to use the system (minimum of 15 people working)
>schedule check ups and calibration days with appropriate industries (minimum of 20 people working)
>customer is happy that a job that used to take one person 5 hours to do is now done by a pressing of a button that is done by several trained employees.
>customer makes retarded amount of money, employees all get treated well and in the mean time more than 2 dozen people were employed to build a system and several are continuously employed to maintain its operation.
>hurrrdurrr the robots took our jobs, not work for anyone now
>May as well dump our economy into didndus and Commy uni students cause their 50000 degree can't get them a stable income.
>May as well pay everyone for nothing but to survive because the robots are becoming sentient and taking care of all labor
>theres nothing left for humans to do
>May as well all be lazy and enjoy the fruits of the singularity
people shit posting about the coming automation apocalypse have never had a hard day of labour in their life. McDonald's ordering screen is not automation.
You literally sound like a conservative who hasn't done any research speaking from emotions. The sounds bites of "dem uni students are overqualified" and "dem younguns are lazy" might make you feel good but actually do some research. We work less now and produce more now than we did 20 years ago. Look at the data bud. You're asleep and you don't even know it.
stats.oecd.org
Look at the data mate.
Just limit the amount of children.
Options would be a one-child policy, mandatory contraception or even chemical castration. the latter two could be done by adding medicine to the drinking water supply and giving clean water to the "chosen few", probably the families of politicians and rich people.
a few generations later, overpopulation will have become a thing of the past.
Disease is the only way. Make a disease that targets those with higher melanin that way it kills off all non whites
>when the government gives you a fuck-ton of money
the government doesn't have any money they don't take from someone else, this suggestion posits that the government is the creator of wealth when in fact the people and the land are where the wealth is created
>Implying no other state taxes corporations and redistributes the confiscated wealth. The only difference is that there are still more producers than takers in Alaska.
no Alaska has shit tons of takers compared to producers, most of the producers you are talking about are takers, they are using resources in the public commons to make profit and keeping the benefit in exchange for a tiny bribe
this is why the system is so out of balance, because this method of doing this allows for monopoly to place massive constraints on demand
combine this with the export of industry and you see the situation we have unfolding now
when you lose industry you lose huge amounts of value
but industry needs to pay it's fair share for it's use of the commons, and we've been allowing useless eaters who produce no value take all the profit and they just hold it which creates the constraint on demand, usually this constraint is corrected with military spending but they fucked that all up also with their usual greed and ignorance
government needs to tax less, it needs to shrink and how we look at taxation needs to be addressed severely
a land based tax that taxes the land where more transaction take place the most would b e the best correction for this, this would place the majority of tax burden on property owners of trading floors, property owners would need to cover this tax burden or face foreclosure and that gambling on commodities sham would end
citizens are owed their fair share of dividend from use of the commons, like how telecom needs to pay for use of the air which their signals travel through, for the use of the ground which their signals travel over,
all business can be viewed this way
Nobody ever correctly predicts technology. Where are my flying cars and moon colonies?
Not off emotion what so ever ausbro. Only emotion I have on the topic is how tiring it is to see this place consumed by fear mongering of an over blown topic. Daily were here denying what the mainstream is representing until automation pops up and were all head over heels in discussing the inevitability of what's to come. Meanwhile I actually work in this industry. I am employed to design, build, and maintain automated processes. My company is the only one doing this work in a city well over a million people, and in a well populated province there are 3 others in this line of work. The systems we build does not cut out the middle man and cause a mass layoff. The industry is just growing up and does not have the full capabilities of taking over an industry. We don't live in a manga. The data you mention is always biased and/or from some philosopher/philanthropist/economics representative. These people are clueless to the state automation is in. It's the equivalent of the first automobile being created and the farmers, buggymen, horse breeders throwing in the towel.
Universal Basic Income is a solution for a problem which does not currently exist. So "the way around universal basic income" is to start with defining the problem, not a separate solution.
>Problem
Automation causes the collapse of the labor market.
>Proposed Solution
Mandatory tax on businesses that employ automation to provide universal welfare.
I can think of a few other ways of looking at this problem and ways to solve it.
>Problem
Automation will cause a collapse of the labor market. This will also cause an existential collapse of society.
>Proposed Solution
Planetary colonization. Automation will be taxed at a rate over 100% of average productivity capable by a human a laborer in the same role. 100% of tax money will go towards a national interplanetary colonization fund. The first colonists will be able to claim squatting rights to land on Mars. Once Mars reaches a point of full automation like Earth both taxes will convert to funding interstellar travel.
>Problem
Automation will cause a collapse of the labor market. This will result in massive wealth concentration in the hands of global elites looking to create a true crystal ball so they can control humanity and guide the planet into the warp to feed it to the psychic vampires.
>Proposed Solution
Use the monopoly laws to break up Silicon Valley, remove Jewish, start a new National Society. One that views Man as the creation of God and the achievements of Man above all others in how impressive they are. Launch a new national infrastructure and arts project that never ends. Build the greatest wonders of the world by hand.
>We dont have enough work for seven billion people now.
We don't need 7 billion people
>en.wikipedia.org
Kikes are ahead of you on that.
>start with defining the problem
how will we keep the bulk of the public fed once embedded systems and automation eliminate 90% of existing white collar jobs
>Kikes are ahead of you on that.
USA and South Africa are way ahead of Israel on the bioweapons
we patented aids and ebola in the 1940s, we have zika for latinos and sars for asians, we definitely have an Israeli bioweapon
the Koreans were making one for white people but we stole it from them and adapted it
so far aids hits white people the most but only because of an accident in the original synthesis, not realizing that everyone is African, this was remedied somewhat by the late 1990s