The absurdity without god

Why should a person be moral in a world without god? nothing is of consequence; the human race will go extinct and the universe will ultimately end. Our actions are so irrelevant, Pure evil or good.

rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil3600/Craig.pdf

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>why should a person be moral in a world without god?

It's called having feelings. Most people have them.

In short, you're retarded.

Been struggling with this for a while as an atheist. The secular argument is that we have evolved as social creatures to select for behavior that encourages cooperation and that as civilizations rose out of the feedback loop created from an ever expanding tent of what constituted in-group normative behavior, religions arose to enshrine metaphysically those behaviors deemed transcendent throughout the ages.

>It's called having feelings. Most people have them.
>In short, you're retarded.

>muh feelings

this is not an argument

Why should a persons 'feelings' give them incentive to be moral when their 'feeling's are irrelevant in the grand scheme of existence?

do you have anything else?

>no country for white people
>no language for white people
>no religion for white people
Something doesn't add up here

A world without YHWH is not a world without Gods.

Cavemen sitting round a fire , one of them breaks a leg the others share their resources till his leg heals because he helped them before.
No god needed.

Do you not reap the benefits of an orginized society ?

what are you implying?

So why did the caveman help them in the first place?

>nothing is of consequence
Except everything?

It's not that hard:
>if you're alive, you might as well want to live a good life
>it's far easier to live a good life in a good world
>a good world needs to be populated by good people
>good actions make good people
>if you want others to change their actions, change yours first

Feelings come from measurable chemical reactions in your brain.
Things like empathy, love, compassion, bravery, all come from how your brain is wired. That's why people with schizophrenia tend to lack empathy, because their brain does not work normally.
tl;dr your retarded.

not everyone is an unhinged psychopath who wants to fucking kill everyone but holds himself back because some ancient book said so

Why are so many people immoral, who *do* believe in god?

SPOOOOK

Read some Dostoevsky nigga.

For your bad actions you will end up in the gutter or in jail and not in hell. For good deed you will receive praise, recognition and earn respect of the peoples. How much more simple can this be ?

>Feelings come from measurable chemical reactions in your brain.
>Things like empathy, love, compassion, bravery, all come from how your brain is wired. That's why people with schizophrenia tend to lack empathy, because their brain does not work normally.

how is this of any relevancy to the question posed? if anything, you have validated my point more

your 'feelings' are nothing but chemicals and are of no consequence

most atheists have the moral intellect and ethical instinct of a sixteen year old with a case of beer at a prom.
the rest are jews

Because things like social control and law exist.
sage

Oh, so you're just completely retarded, then?

cope

Holy fuck. This has to be a leaf with a proxy.
Morals come from how people feel about things, you massive faggot. These feelings are not just imaginary things, they are physical reactions happening in your brain.
If your brain is abnormal, your morality will not be in line with the majority of people with healthy, normal brains.

>Why should a person be moral in a world without god?

Depends on them, really. If you want to treat people like shit, be ready to have likely similar response.

>Nothing is of consequence
... No. In society or outside it, every decision you make has an outcome. If its good, its a 'reward' if its bad, a 'consequence'. This is not just a social construct. It's a natural response to a choice. Human's aren't the only once making choices. Every living organism makes choices. The difference is some think or act beyond what their instinct tells them to.

>The human race will go extinct.

Yes. It will. By our hands? maybe. By evolution? Possibly. We don't know for sure, but if our species live long enough it might evolve into a whole new one in our stead. Those successors aren't homo sapiens like us. But they did come from us.

>The Universe will ultimately end.

Science still can't tell man. Just loads of theories. I'm more worried about super radiation from outer space vaporizing our atmosphere and cooking us as though we are inside a microwave.

>Our actions are irrelevant.

Maybe. If you believe it to be, then for you it must be. If others believe it not to be, then it is not. Depends on preference and opinions since it varies on who you ask.

>Pure Evil or Good

Again, depends on who you ask..... and which country you are. Lots of varieties to this. But ultimately, if you don't believe in 'morality' then there is no Good or Evil. Just good or bad results from your actions.

Because morality boils down to protecting, fostering and creating life, and anyone who is intellectually curious should like to see how far evolution can take humanity, what heights it can reach.

>the universe will ultimately end so nothing matters
You could say the same as a Christian since the endgame in Christian theology is everyone who ever lived ends up holding hands in a big circle around God singing kumbayah on repeat for all enternity

Dumb ass thread. Humans are social animals for basic evolutionary utility. That's where moral infrastructure comes from. Religion is table-setting and also deals with the existential dread inherent to conscious beings.

>Why should a person be moral in a world without god? nothing is of consequence; the human race will go extinct and the universe will ultimately end. Our actions are so irrelevant, Pure evil or good.
Because its a world without God and to strive towards becoming more than human we should do good and even better. The futility of it all is another reason to. It is a baptism of fire.

Holy shit, you cracked the code! Hatred and bigotry only exist in people without feelings! Oppressive regimes and spectacular human rights violations only happen where people don't have feelings! Africa's poverty and general state of being completely fucked is because they don't have feelings!

Die in a fire leaf.

>"the human race will go extinct and the universe will ultimately end"

Cite your source for those plz

What if I'm only happy when I touch little boys ?

But is a person truly good if upon his decision hang the eternal reward of heaven and eternal punishment of hell?

The best answer I could find is self prezervation.
Or as Jordan B Peterson put it. Following the rules of the meta-game (of life) that does not lead to the degeneration of the infinity games (interactions between humans).

Guess he's referring to the heat death of the universe. Pretty much orthodox science.

Game Theory.

Because maybe humans can combine their effort in teamwork and leverage more advantage then were they to all go lone-wolf.

No Supernatural clause needed.

Because people want to work with other people who are good and reliable. God may not be real, but society is. And if you want to be part of society then you play your part.

sociopaths aren't retards.

Self interest. They relly on one another to survive.

do you want to be hurt, robbed, killed?
there you go

only retards need religion to understand the benefits of morality and ethics in society

Yea i understand that is the "orthodox science." But, still not proven despite the fact that "smart" people theorize about it and publish it in BOOKS. But you have to ask yourself why the average Joe knows this "fact" and yet doesn't understand any basic details on how his cellphone works? One set of information is pushed more than the other and that's science

Humans will always put something in the "God" slot. You remove religion and it becomes marxism. A utopian ideology that will result in paradise, so anyone that opposes it wants others to suffer and is thus evil. Like 80% of athiests vote left in america. Not believing in God opens most people up to something much, much worse for everyone, even if athiests aren't randomly murdering people in the streets.

Only reasons to be moral are law and social consequences. The latter is slowly becoming irrelevant, so if you don't get caught there is no reason to act good.

By doing that you hurt someone. That someone usually has people looking after him and protecting him.
And because you hurt him they will hurt you back. And because we can relate to that someone we will join in on the lynch mob so that you won't get the chance to hurt someone else that we are connected to.

You also violated the NAP. Reee.

The wellspring of morality is culture, and belief in god is only so much culture.

Today, in Europe, Christians argue for mass immigration. Therefore they seek to destroy Western culture, and can no longer be seen as moral people. Merely socialist lapdogs.

Because your actions affect many people in your life including yourself and we're social animals. As simple as it can be.

Game theory

>Why should a person be moral in a world without god?

Because they're not retarded?

You are your own master faggot why would one wish 4 some1 else to govern their life, even if God would be real I would defy that faggot as much as I can. Grow a backbone retard.

At certain points in life, you can either choose to be good or choose to be evil. That's your choice.

(Why should you be moral, the evil "one" whispered in his ear, while simultaneously claiming good is irrelevant and inconsequential).

youtube.com/watch?v=VDdI3X4sTzQ

But what if you reject the respect of people? Then the idea of you being "punished" is just an addition to your screwed world view and hatred of society.

So then life is basically relative?

Are you saying feelings are an actual argument? The we should debate based on feelings and who feels the strongest about something.
You'r an idiot, that's not what Doestoevsky says at all. In Crime and punishment he actually underlines the absurdity of a world without God. Raskolnikov gets away with murder, but then turns himself in to the police due to his consiousness.
> even if God would be real I would defy that faggot as much as I can
Now that's edgy.

Well I would do it just if he has something against me or my family(as long as he doesn't mess with me we can be bros), either way we can goo for a beer, would you join us?

>Well I would do it just if he has something against me or my family
What a dumb nigger.

Would you be so kind to tell me why I am a "Nigger". Because he has all the "power" and it is useles to do something against him? I was that kind of useles bitch in the past but if I can do something about it I will for sure at least I can die or suffer without regrets even if it is for a second.

>Because he has all the "power" and it is useles to do something against him?
Partly, also because if an entity has absolute power and knowladge, he probably knows better than you. So going against God just to spite him is insane, and it's also something you wouldn't do.
>if I can do something about it
By deffinition you can't.
>I will for sure at least I can die or suffer without regrets
Sure you would. And I bet you would go through an eternity of suffering without regreting it.

Biological immortality is attainable.

Because morality, compassion and general positivity aren't the sole domain of religions. You can be atheist while understanding and appreciating Christianity cultural achievement throughout western democracies while disagreeing about the existence of gods.

Countries, families, ancestors... those are all worthwhile moral pillars if you decided to study them. As an atheist, I find that anyone who disregard all the goods from Christianity to be retarded.

you should feel bad when you do bad things you degenerate

I've watched craig debate, and honestly, he is a fucking clown.
If he is the best you've got christfags, you have no chance.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

And why do you say that he know better than me? Knows what is better for who? I do think that I know me better than everyone else so? Why do you assume that he is "good for you"? I don t buy this. Yes I would go trough "an eternity of suffering" without regreting it, this as long as just myself is the one paying not the ones that I love. Ma duc pe afara.

again, muh feels
Not an argument. By your reasoning psycopaths should go ahead and kill and rape is that's what they want. Or if someone gains pleasure by doing so they have no reason to restrain themselves. You'r just saying: don't be bad, unless you feel like it.

Craig likes to talk about objective morality, and how it can only exist if there is a god.
I ask this:
Is it obectively moral to help people in need of help?
If yes, then god is obectively immoral
If no, you are a fucking idiot
In summary, god is obvjectively immoral, and christianity is a fucking joke.

Why should I be moral for the promise of a white void where I remember nothing and suck some dude's ancient cock? What is moral about the promise of 72 virgins?

>Why should a person be moral in a world without god?
Religious people cannot be moral. Only atheists can act morally.

>Why should a persons 'feelings' give them incentive to be moral when their 'feeling's are irrelevant in the grand scheme of existence?
We are also irrelevant. Is it surprising that irrelevant things, namely feelings, indicate us what to do?
>do you have anything else?
No. Feelings is all you get.

The christian God is by deffinition all powerful all knowing and a loving God.
> I do think that I know me better than everyone else so?
Yah right, I bet you parents know that better than YOU, let alone God.

>Only atheists can act morally.
There's no such thing as morality for and atheist. What are you even talking about?

Because not behaving ethically makes life for everyone, including you, worse. If you want the highest quality of life for yourself, you need to behave ethically.

>Why should a person be moral in a world without god?

Practicality.

because I will kill you if you do not.

They wouldn't hence why you see things like abortion which would have been completely condemned in the past become the accepted position

Answer this you deluded christfags.

>There's no such thing as morality for and atheist. What are you even talking about?

religious people act without reason, they follow superstition, dogma. They cannot be moral. Atheists act rationally, and thus can be moral.

>Is it obectively moral to help people in need of help?

No because that's not enough information to make that judgment.

>what if you reject the respect of people?
Not possible. You try to supress it, it leaks out in a perverted form. Men who pretended to reject all the society projected hard on how society thinks they are gods and shit. Rejecting the respect of people can only be done by killing yourself literally.

>sociopaths aren't retards.

Some of them are, actually. Some of them are too stupid to understand and conform to civilized behavior.

More like "spirituality". I know it sounds stupid but people believing that the world is not only material are naturally more likely to be moral. Whatever they're part of a religion or not. Materalists however (people that believe that only matter exists) are literally the cancer of this world

No they don t cause I can chose myself what is good or bad for me.
>The christian God is by deffinition all powerful all knowing and a loving God.
Read the Old testament again.

Religion is a massive moneymaker and that's why it's still around today. God either doesn't exist or is one evil motherfucker.

Ok then, let me give you an example.
A man gets bitten by a venomous snake in the jungle. He will die in 5 hours, unless somebody helps him. Nobody is around, anyone who could help him are very far and there is no he can get there in time. God is the only one who could help him. God will not help him, and therefore he is obectively immoral.

Okay let me rephrase then.
What if a person desires no positive interactions with people for whatever reason. Then for him there is no point in being "moral" because he takes pleasure from having negative interactions with people.

That's idiotic. Good is not necessarily material good or comfort. That's just a petty and materialistic way of looking at things.

>God will not help him, and therefore he is obectively immoral.

That's not necessarily true since that works only on the premise that curing him of his venom poisoning would be helping him. Once you add the presumption of God being real into the equation that carries with it the assumption of heaven and so then God's actions or inactions can become validated on that man's entrance to heaven upon death. This is why trying to argue through hypotheticals isn't very effective.

So you've got it "objective" only if you assume not helping a man bitten by a snake is immoral and that God's inaction is not helping.

>it is not good, right or moral to help a dying man
And you fucking retards talk about morality. Christians are not moral, they are god fearing people, who would do anything just to get to heaven.

>(((human race)))
use human kind or species
deny our enemies language

Because we're not sociopaths and don't need a god to act as our moral compass. Christcucks are starting to get pathetic.

What a drooling idiot.
First of all, there is literally no such thing as morality for atheists. The stuff you might call morality is not like the christian understanding, as a principle that is above yourself.For you morality is just feels. Also, atheist """"morality"""" is subjective, you can have two atheists with opposite moral systems.
And reason has nothing to do with morality, reason doesn't tell you HOW you should act, just how to get from point A to point B in the best manner, but it doesn't set goals for you.

>it is not objectively moral to not help a dying man, because he will get to heaven
There you go, christians at it again
You christians are terrible people. Even though you claim to be the ones moral.

Death and suffering are not evil you drooling idiot. In fact, they can be helpull to get closer to God, wich is the purpose of existance. Suffering in this short life means nothing compared to eternity.

If society sees him as immoral, he will be subjected to torture. He will have to be moral to survive. Or to catch his victims off guard, otherwise they will run away and he will not have the negative interactions and he will be sad.

I'm not Christian and that's not an argument. You're trying desperately not to have nuance or detail in this discussion.

I believe that's a sociopath...

People have reasons to not be shitbags even if there are no gods.
One is, what kind of sick fucks take pleasure in making others suffer?
Another is, who wants to be remembered for being a shitbag?
No one should.
Live for the only life you know for certain you will ever have, and it is not hard to tell right from wrong, strengthening from weakening, accuracy from falsehood.
And it doesn't take believe in a magical dead jew on a stick to have a conscience.

millennials don't understand the concept of deferred gratification it's pointless explaining it to them

>death and suffering are objectively moral
THERE YOU GO. You should be locked up.
You just stated that death and suffering are not bad things. How the fuck do you even dare to talk about morality, when you yourself are a terrible person?

Why should I do the right thing? No reason at all. I realize the futility of my good behavior but I continue nonetheless because of my personal convictions.

Morality is derived from a person's actions, not the other way.
An action is a declaration of desired treatment.
If you try to kill someone, you are basically saying "I'm fine with killing". For this reason it is ok to kill in self defence, because you give them permission to kill you.

>You just stated that death and suffering are not bad things. How the fuck do you even dare to talk about morality, when you yourself are a terrible person?
Bingo was his namo

>atheists
Morality doesn't need god. You should treat others the way you would want to be treated. Societies should treat everyone fairly, help each other, and in doing so achieve most benefit for everyone
>Christians
Be good because a LOVING god will punish you for all eternity for being bad. Not because you are a good person, and care about what others feel or need, but because some fag with no evidence tells you to do so.

Who is moral again?

For the good of his people. To build something strong and beautiful that will provide a good life for his posterity. To create, to procreate, to proliferate.

It's not that hard, faggots. If you feel like you want to go full psycho and only the fear of hell could stop you, THAT'S the problem, you degenerate fuck.

Atheists think abortion is morally acceptable so I wouldn't say them