Being in favour of European Union or even European Federation = Being a leftist technocrat?

Being in favour of European Union or even European Federation = Being a leftist technocrat?

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Nope.

In my case, yes.

>hurr durr people is smart enough to decide for everyone of us

No, europe is subject to considerable external pressures. It needs a solidified political body to create its own sphere and cultural pressure. Because as it stands, europe as a whole is losing to the US and mid east. sadly de Gaulle warned exactly this would happen but was ignored

I can only hope that Transylvania becomes self-governing in such a Federation
Regățeni are absolutely incompetent and/or malevolent bureaucrats, their rule causes nothing but harm

>Being in favour of European Union or even European Federation = Being a leftist technocrat?

No really. Being against EU could mean you are a leftist nationalist.

>leftist nationalist
literally the worst two things you could mix

>leftist nationalist.
they don't exist here

not here

We have plenty of them. They've put our current government into power.

Agree

pragmatist

i want European Union to be strong, not this leftist shit we have now

Hating om the eu is suxch a pleb loq iw hing todu we most embrace the ei in its wais and all move forward to the nwxt step

Leftist nationalist (i.e. national socialism) is literally patrician-tier politics desu.

Being against EU just means that you believe that each people, culture and ethnicity deserve to rule over themselves and have their own soverign homelands.

EU is fucking cancer and it's whole goal is to strip away all sovereignty and legislative power of European people, and eventually erase us away via mass migrating Europe full of africans and middle easterners, because at the heart of EU is the pan-european utopian vision of Count Kalergi. Kalergi's vision is being fulfilled as we speak, and if it succeeds, it will mean that European people will cease to exist as soverign nations and people with strong cultural and ethnic roots and identities. We will be reduced to slave like consumerist plebeian mongrels, ruled over by an elite neo-aristocracy formed by the bureaucrats of the EU.

EU is cancer and I will never fucking accept this fucking union. I hope it collapses soon or that we Finns get the fuck out if it.

>leftist technocrat
what's that?

communist

Not necessarily. I suppose it depends on what you imagine the EU should look like.

>that
>a "plan"
it seems that poltard's dishonesty is only ever matched by his illiteracy

You can read Kalergi's book yourself cunt.
pol-check.blogspot.fi/2015/06/practical-idealism-by-richard-nicolaus.html

This is the man that is labeled the "father of modern Europe" by some. His pan-european ideology is fucking disgusting.

More gobalization
More interdependence
more migrants

whats not to love?

I myself identify as a radical centrist

More Europeanisation
More European interdependence
Less migrants

Why can't we have this?

Power isn't waving your cock about like the USA and Russia are. We certainly don't need yet another trigger happy super power.

Did you actually read it yourself, lad? the original?
Or just pol annotations of it?

better than the alternative
look at russia and ukrain for a case study

I did read it, the whole damn thing, and it disgusts me.
Kalergi was a man, that hated democracy, and the idea of people governing themselves. He thought that it was the role of nobles to lead the lesser plebian masses.
He was an elitist cunt that thought that people were too stupid to rule over themselves, and needed some sort of "spiritual nobility" to lead them.

And the EU members have tried to be a 'nice' power, yet actions of third party countries and even some member states have served to destabilise the area around europes borders.

inb4 200 replies of teenagers browsing Sup Forums who will claim that the EU is destroying their unique cultures somehow and that their countries would be much more powerful and relevant on the world stage if they're alone

>thought that people were too stupid to rule over themselves
he was right tho

if i was a debntfag i would be too

>nat soc is left
alright

Fuck no.
I do not want some elitist "intellectual" fucking despot telling me what to do.
Foreigners should never fucking again order my people around. We have 800 years of experiencing that shit in our past.

Rauhotu.

Do you think Putin is one of the "nobles"?

then you are either deliberately lying or just did not understand the words as you read them.

But even assuming that he's describing a vision like you claim, it's still idiotic to call a "plan" something that might as well have been posted as an autistic rant on Sup Forums just by substituting actors.

So you want us to go back to a pre-soviet collapse situation? Because that worked out so well last time, didn't it? It's a fucking miracle we haven't blown our species off the face of this planet yet and you want to add MORE tension to the situation?

He isn't describing the exact future I described here.
In his book, he is describing the ideology that is leading to the construction of such a future.
I do not think that Kalergi himself envisioned EU. But people who took Kalergi's vision of the future eurasian negroid race that is led by a spiritual aristocracy, where democracy has "died naturally", have been building the EU ever closer to federalization, and the realization of that future.

>

do you unironically believe that migrant waves are orchestrated as global-scale eugenic program to create a race of morlocs that can be lorded over?

as opposed to it being a result of combination of fucked up foreign interventions in middle east and africa, dysfunctional international law, clusterfuck of well meaning activists and greed motivated criminals and poverty and corruption endemic to african regimes?

if someone is indeed managing these events from the top then it seems they are doing an abysmal job. They can't even get the "negropean" race to actually work for them.

I do not believe in coincidences.
Too many things about the EU both with it's push for ever increasing integration, undermining of nationalism at all levels of institution and power, stripping of legislative power away from the people and into the hands of unelected EU appointed bureaucrats, the push for never ending migration to Europe that doesn't benefit European peoples at all in any single way, active attempts at punishing nations who refuse this influx of africans and middle easterns and so on, the deposing of Gaddafi who kept the floodgate of african migrants closed, all tie together in the purpose of fulfilling Kalergi's vision. Once you know Kalergi, and his ideology, you can explain the actions of the EU rationally. For other explanations, one would have to blame sheer incompetence of EU, or active idiotic and short sighted malevolence. Nobody within the sphere of power where Merkel and her ilk operate in, would be so naive to think that there is anything good to come from inviting the third world into Europe like she did.

Of course, there are chaotic elements in this mix, people who don't know the part they are playing, or what their well intentioned actions will cause in the long run. I do not believe that there is a cabal of people orchestrating this at every level of it, but such level of co-ordination is not even needed. All what is needed, is that the right people, in the right place, act towards fulfilling this "vision" and the rest will flow with it's own weight.
The likes of Soros for example, actively fuel this ongoing migration.

What is happening now, is what will be the end of European people, should we fail to act against this. In 50 years, Germans will be a minority in their native homeland at the current rate of migration. It might even be sooner, should the rate of migration increase.
We are facing an event, that will result in the genocide of Europeans.

that's exactly what it is tho

We have those here, it's the commies, nobody cares for them

>European people will cease to exist as soverign nations and people with strong cultural and ethnic roots and identities
Will probably never happen unless there's a huge wave of migration that changes everything
>We will be reduced to slave like consumerist plebeian mongrels, ruled over by an elite neo-aristocracy formed by the bureaucrats of the EU.
ok *tips*

A lot of European countries (especially the bigger ones) consisted of small separate countries at some point of history. Those little entities merged most often by war than enything else and as they grew, they become stronger and more influential. That was the case with GB, Germany, Poland etc. This is the only way for us to matter in the world ruled by US, China and at some point maybe India. I think that those who opose the federalisation of EU believe that we can afford being small and irrelevant. But this "little Britain" mentality will bite us in the ass one day when the gigants like China and America start interfere more and more in here to secure their interests, and there will be nothing we can do cause we are divided.

Ours say that they are anti-communist :) But all they do is just so similar to what we had here before 1989.

Relevancy is fucking meaningless if attaining it means sacrificing your own sovereignty, culture and people.
Why would I care if Finland was part of some "relevant" European superstate, if my people were basically just subjects of foreigners at best, or completely extinct at worst.

Neither fate interests me one bit.
Relevancy does not matter.
Only my people, and our survival, matters to me.
The most precious thing we have on this earth, is our own people.

>#654896746 same old fear mongering bullshit
fuck off pooland you're not getting any more of our money

>Relevancy is fucking meaningless if attaining it means sacrificing your own sovereignty, culture and people.

I would gladly destroy my worthless piece of shit cultural heritage if it gave me German salary.

Just look at what happened with China and Greece at the UN recently. If it wasn't for the EU it would be a hundred times worse, great powers like the US, Russia and China would pity European states against each other all the time, divide and rule.

It's not a coincidence that prominent parts of the Eurosceptics movement are financed by Russia, see Le Pen.

No one asks you to loose your culture. Or to be ruled by Portugese. You choose your representatives to the parlament. I know I'm in minority in here with my worldview. I know I won't convince you eighter.

It's not up to you :D

I totally agree. It is exactly what I ment.

How is EU leftist?

You disgust me.

I have no grand heritage to cling to, my people were not great conquerors or kings. We were peasants, borderline slaves, to foreign rulers for 800 years, and before that, we were pagans wandering in the ancient woods of Finland. Yet, I still love my people, our culture, and heritage, for they belong to me, and are from which I was born to this world. Without them, I am nothing, for without them, I would not be. They are the roots trough which I sprout, and to cut me from them, is to kill me.

My people, our survival, and a future where there are still Finnish children, free to live in their homeland, without the tyranny of foreign people, are all that matter to me. Everything else is trivial.

The fact that you so shamelessly would throw away your heritage, is absolutely abhorrent to me.

Our representatives in the EU have no legislative power, nor can they repeal laws. They can just vote yes/no on laws EU commissions push, and if they reject those laws, the commissions will just send them back for another go, until it gets passed. The rulers of EU, are not elected by European peoples. They are bureaucratic appointees that serve the interests of the elites, not the interests of the people, and we have no way of getting them out of their positions if they do a shit job. EU is a sham of democracy, and we are in fact, already being ruled by foreingers, which is a state that I cannot fucking tolerate. I will rebel against this disgusting union until we Finns leave, or it collapses, for it is an existential threat to the freedom, and continuation of my people.

Fuck the EU.

>Thinking as an idealist when all your rivals are pragmatists

Forget about muh quaint culture.

When the imperialists come knocking you'll regret you never federalised Europe.

Sup Forums thinks everything they don't like is leftist

This whole notion of hermetically isolated, completely autonomous and self-sufficient sovereign nations is a ridiculous child's fantasy.

There always were and will always be economical and political dependencies, shared interests, alliances and counter-alliances.

It's basically feelz>realz

European bureaucrats are still appointed by the member states. It's not direct democracy but democratic never the less. They're not kings and bestowed power by divine right.

Finns never have freedom. Either Sweden or Russia have always been your masters. Right now it's Europe.

A lot of people use their own political views as a point of reference for the political spectrum. Pretty bizarre, but that's how it is.

>but democratic never the less
in the loosest possible sense of the word perhaps

True, but that does not mean that we should voluntarily cede away our sovereignty and legislative power to an union that does not serve the interests of my people.

>European bureaucrats are still appointed by the member states.
And only pro-EU statesmen, who are willing to push EU agenda further, get appointed. It is tyranny, for we cannot remove these people even though they actively commit treason against their own people.

>Finns never have freedom. Either Sweden or Russia have always been your masters. Right now it's Europe.
And until we have freedom, I will fight against the tyrants ruling us. No foreigner should ever tell a Finn how he/she should live, or determine the laws we have to follow.

EU, Europe, those terms mean nothing to me. I have no loyalty to them. My sole loyalty is with my people, and for the sake of my people, I am willing to do anything necessary to ensure our survival and freedom.

Why do people think federalisation will kill their culture? EU founds cultural programs to preserve local culture. Also if the country you live in is bigger than Luxemburg you can see the cultural differences between regions even though the same national formation rules over the land for a 1000 years. Our common European culture evolves but so it would even without EU. In my opinion we are getting rather more Americanised than enything else anyways :)

That’s only because the food in your belly and roof over your head is sure to stay where it is because you live in a good country. Not so much for me.

>in the loosest possible sense of the word perhaps
It's representative democracy, the same it is in every EU country, but larger.
The meme how the EU is not democratic is the most retarded one.

>Why do people think federalisation will kill their culture?
Because EU pushes multiculturalism, and the idea that "lol, anyone can be a Finn if he/she wants to".
Those are death sentences to both our culture and people.

Only people who are ETHNICALLY FINNISH, are actually fucking Finns. I don't become Japanese by saying that I am Japanese. Even if I lived in Japan for the next 30 years, I'd still be no more Japanese than I am now. There is no magic soil transforms you to a member of a people. Non-Finns will never be my kin and their culture remains foreign to me.

EU would have that my homeland turns into a brazil tier shithole where Finnish culture is nothing more than a fucking Finnish passport, because "everyone can be a Finn".

Fuck that shit.

I feel like you've never understood the meaning of not having real freedom.

The people criticizing the EU for lack of democratic legitimacy are the same that oppose any big push of more democratization because it would ironically strengthen the institutions they oppose. If it was up to the most pro-EU members we would have had a directly elected executive for years by now.

>Non-Finns will never be my kin and their culture remains foreign to me.

For most of human history, a stranger could be adopted into a tribe if he lived like them, acted like them and talked like them.

Perhaps we should replace artificial nations with natural tribes...

For all intents and purposes, it fucking isn't.
If the european people cannot vote for the fuckers who make the actual laws, and they are instead selected by the elite-EU lapdogs of the member states themselves, who do those selections behind closed doors and usually out of public eye, then the system ain't fucking democratic.

Democracy isn't the same in every EU country. It's not a binary. Some democracies are better than others. And the EU organization happen to have one of the shittiest implementation of democracy known to mankind.

t. alberto barbosa

Don't worry, none of us actually want to go to Finland. Only refugees do.

What makes you think that I have loyalty to nation? The less finland becomes an exclusive ethnostate of Finns, the less loyalty I have to this nation. My loyalty is to my people, my TRIBE. Unfortunately, our treasonous leaders do not see Finland as the ethnic homeland of Finns, but as a multicultural shithole that can be robbed and sold to EU for their personal benefit.

And yes, some strangers can be accepted, if they are compatible, others (like subhuman niggers), cannot be. There is no benefit to my people from accepting niggers as members of our tribe.

>Democracy isn't the same in every EU country.
It pretty much is tho.

It is not rational to force interpretation of events to fit with a grander theory you subscribe to, although you're not the only one who does this, and your idea is not the only one that suffers from it.

It's appealing to believe you've uncovered some greater scheme and let confirmation bias fill in the rest but that does not mean it's true.

As for what current event mean is up for the people and their political representation to decide. It's not a foregone conclusion, be it according to a narrative pushed by any ideologue or machination of any single party.

Nevertheless, personally I assign much greater share of blame to incompetence of individual actors, and suboptimal results caused by conflicting interests (an example: festering of syria due to conflicting interests of powers) than some conspiracy.

You preach some very wise words, buddy.

You may be correct, but if pushing my narrative alerts my people to the looming danger EU and mass migration poses to us, then I will use the narrative as a tool to rid ourselves of this union and steer ourselves back to a path where we are our own masters, and our place in our homeland, and future survival, are secured, or at least more secure, than they are in the current state of affairs.

As I said, I am willing to do whatever necessary to ensure the survival of my people. It is the highest moral good I can strive for, and ensuring that there remains a future for my people, justifies all means.

You speak as if there's an existential crisis. There's no genocide that you're alluding to.

Migrant integrate eventually, albeit after several generation.

This nationalism is a disease of your mind, probably from browsing pol too much.

Again, why on earth should we cede our sovereignty to the fucking EU? I don't want germans or french having ANY FUCKING SAY in any fucking law that applies to my people.

You cunts are the fucking worst. You are not my fucking kin and I don't want your ilk having any say in our matters.

>I do not believe in coincidences.

I think it’s just european vampires developing taste for middle eastern blood.

Wrong. There's a significant difference among European countries, particularly between west and east, in terms of political culture, press freedom, civil liberties, corruption and the overall functionality of government. All of these are vital to a functioning democratic process.

Democracy isn't some silver bullet that, once in place, just works the same everywhere. It needs support infrastructure to function properly. Just look at the Arab spring and what happened there.

youtube.com/watch?v=arTSogF9Onc

transilvania is romanian

>You speak as if there's an existential crisis. There's no genocide that you're alluding to.

There is. The current rate of migration exceeds the native births of my homeland. We are being replaced, slowly but surely as the percentage of non-Finns rises here.

>Migrant integrate eventually, albeit after several generation.
I DON'T WANT THEM FUCKING INTEGRATING. I WANT THEM OUT. THEY ARE NOT MY KIN, THEY ARE MY FUCKING ENEMIES, COMPETITORS TO MY PEOPLE, I WANT THEM OUT OR FUCKING DEAD.
THEY DO NOT DESERVE TO WALK ON FINNISH FUCKING SOIL THAT MY PEOPLE BLED AND DIED FOR TO KEEP FREE FROM SOVIET FUCKING TYRANNY. ALL NON-FINNS HAVE TO GET THE FUCK OUT OF FINLAND.
THIS IS OUR FUCKING HOME. NOT THEIRS, THEY CAN PISS THE FUCK OFF.

>This nationalism is a disease of your mind, probably from browsing pol too much.
Nationalism is the salvation of my people. Trough nationalism, we freed ourselves of foreign tyranny, and despotism of aristocrats, and recognized ourselves as kindred people. We Finns are our own people, with our own cultures, language, heritage and history, and only we should rule how we live. Foreigners should have no place in our homeland and no say in our matters. 800 years of history with such state of affairs, shows the suffering it will lead to my people.
Never fucking again.

Maybe your definition of "survival" and "my people" is different what some others in this country might think. Solutions like getting out of all political frameworks (like the EU), rather than try to modify and influence them might end up making Finland and Finns way worse off than we'd be in the alternate situation of staying in. Too high a price to pay for this delusion of so called "sovereignty", which largely isn't even that real.

t. cai-göran

Altering EU from within might be a possibility, but I doubt it. The way it works is too byzantine, and the vested interests of so many parties within it, to drive it towards the destination of Federalization, are too strong, for any serious reform to ever take place.

And sovereignty is real. It is a state of affairs, where we decide on what laws and rules apply to our people in our own homeland. How can you be opposed to such state of affairs?

We're talking about the system, as in how people vote and how governments are formed and how they function.

Sovereignty doesn't exist. A greater foreign power will always dictate the policy of a small nation like finland. Here is where you choose your oppressor.

People are worthless cattle, the only valuable things on this planet are land, love and pride.

Like I said, I will fight until we are soverign.

>le cultural difference meymay

And beer. Beer is very good, when it's good.

No. That's what you're talking about. Because that's the only way you can talk about it while maintaining your narrative of it being a simple binary: be or be not.

The problem isn't that the EU isn't a democracy. The problem is that it's a very poor democracy and there's very little hope of ever changing that.

Not that I'd ever want a federal European state even if its underlying democratic system was sound. But it'd be hell of a lot better than what we got now.

Don Quixote.

Maybe.
But to accept tyranny is to be a willing slave, which is utterly pathetic. Our people deserve freedom.

Stop being a retard.

As a German gentelman from above have said:

>The people criticizing the EU for lack of democratic legitimacy are the same that oppose any big push of more democratization because it would ironically strengthen the institutions they oppose. If it was up to the most pro-EU members we would have had a directly elected executive for years by now.

EU is pure facism. There. I've said it.

If it was pure facism it would keep its gold in Switzerland, not in London City.

>rubbish
Did you smell your cleanings products again, Polen? Feeling funny? How many plumbing sticks do you see?