This is a thread for the discussion of all ideologies that promote property rights, individual liberty and lassez-faire capitalism. This includes (but is not limited to) anarcho-capitalism, paleolibertarianism, minarchy, agorism and right-wing reactionary-ism against the left (i.e. physical removal, so to speak). All others are welcome to learn and debate us. Reminder that this is a right-wing thread, so libertine degenerates ('live and let live' faggotry), open-border advocates and faux-libertarians (e.g. Gary Johnson) are not welcome here - people here recognise that property rights imply discrimination and a return to traditional, conservative values. Although questions are welcome, most of them have already been answered many times, so it is recommended you get to grip with the basics first. Nobody here is obligated to argue with you, so try to avoid using fallacies in your arguments or creating unrealistic scenarios.
THREAD THEME: >hoppewave | Hans-Hermann Hoppe | physical removal - youtube.com/watch?v=u-wMmYSG9JQ >Against the State - (Hoppewave Hans Hermann Hoppe) - youtube.com/watch?v=HLaqr3QorCw >I need a Pinochet! - youtube.com/watch?v=zhrYY3ocQ5o >Drop it like it's Hoppe - youtube.com/watch?v=HPKGgo4kGQM
“Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects.”
“Libertarianism holds that the only proper role of violence is to defend person and property against violence, that any use of violence that goes beyond such just defense is itself aggressive, unjust, and criminal”
“Scratch an egalitarian, and you will inevitably find a statist.”
“It is in war that the State really comes into its own: swelling in power, in number, in pride, in absolute dominion over the economy and the society.”
“Since production must always precede predation, the free market is anterior to the State. The State has never been created by a “social contract”; it has always been born in conquest and exploitation.”
“Whenever someone starts talking about 'fair competition' or indeed, about 'fairness' in general, it is time to keep a sharp eye on your wallet, for it is about to be picked.”
“Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. Democracy is a soft variant of communism, and rarely in the history of ideas has it been taken for anything else.”
“There can be no socialism without a state, and as long as there is a state there is socialism. The state, then, is the very institution that puts socialism into action; and as socialism rests on aggressive violence directed against innocent victims, aggressive violence is the nature of any state.”
“Egalitarian and relativistic sentiments find steady support among ever new generations of adolescents. Owing to their still incomplete mental development, juveniles, especially of the male variety, are always susceptible to both ideas.”
“Conflict is not unavoidable. However, it is nonsensical to consider the institution of a state as a solution to the problem of possible conflict, because it is precisely the institution of a state which first makes conflict unavoidable and permanent.”
“With a [democratic] government anyone in principle can become a member of the ruling class or even the supreme power. The distinction between the rulers and the ruled as well as the class consciousness of the ruled become blurred. The illusion even arises that the distinction no longer exists: that with a public government no one is ruled by anyone, but everyone instead rules himself. Accordingly, public resistance against government power is systematically weakened."
You're the one who ought to be removed for denigrating paleos.
Julian Cook
>His only personal stance is dude freedom lmao >I'm totally fine with people taking drugs, even if it's my daughter
I pity you.
Austin Wood
mfw LRG gets btfo by a liberal
Robert Mitchell
Just heard about this guy. Question. What would the world he espouses look like? What would stop a neighbouring country from just enslaving you all? What does privatization of law and military look like, in practice?
Logan Brown
...
Robert Sanders
i posted this in another thread and we were talking about the inaccuracies of the placement of the ideologies on this chart. what do you think about the /lrg/ or purple square related ones?
Alexander Wood
at least this place has one good general
Jeremiah Richardson
My problem with these tests is that it can't differentiate between authority via property rights and authority via the state.
Ayden Taylor
It's talking about deserving stuff.
How is that ancap lmao
Jacob Edwards
Fuck off ancap faggots.
Anthony Diaz
starve me outside stalin.
James Morgan
It won't work. That's why minarchism is the most viable libertanism ideology and approach. AnCap is a meme that's based on a dream that a bunch of disorganized fellas with rifles can hold back a fully trained and equipped military. Or that your private security company won't simply enslave you for x2 the benefits and 0 risk of fighting and dying for you
Jose Myers
Serious question, will degenerate behavior spread in a libertarian society? People today, in general have a more code, but was this instilled in us by force from a government or other type of large collective? Good behavior is not always benifical for a creatures survival, and evil behavior is often rewarded. Could a purpose of s government be to raise the general moral fiber of a society, and could it be more efficient at that task, rather than a totally free world?
Adam Carter
Yeah, I must agree. I don't see how it is an any less corruptible system than we have now.
Adrian Gomez
>Serious question, will degenerate behavior spread in a libertarian society? depends on the culture of the society, an religious conservative society will prevent degeneration and move on to higher levels, while atheistic gay societies will die under their own degeneration.
Carson Peterson
can someone explain to me how the book club works and how do I participate?
Dylan Nguyen
I can see that happening in today's world, but I think you could make the argument that the church is similar to a government, and wouldn't exist in a libertarian society. At least that's what I meant. So would some kind of hierarchy be necessary in order to keep people moral?
Eli Hernandez
I use Ancap writers and Ancap theorist to better my ideology and use it as a platform to better myself.
Anyone who unironically believes in Ancap and what it fully implemented is delusional
Levi Cruz
I'm not saying it's corruptible, just not viable. I'm all for a bare minimum minarchistic state that's main duty is defend the country and it's basic laws. Minimum taxing via Georgist tax (they defend your land so pay for it).
Socialism in general is cancer. Look what it did to your country. Do you think without socialism the state would have the opportunity or money to let in unproductive niggers and other 3rd world filth?
Elijah Brooks
Capitalism does distribute wealth in the most efficient way. Whose fault is it that a bunch of fucking degenerates can become millionaires for acting like scum? The right have stood in the way of the downfall of culture and societal standards, it's you leftwing faggots who think humans can behave like animals with no consequences that have done this
Ayden Taylor
...
Luis Brooks
How do you instill morals and raise the general moral fiber of a society without force?
Hunter Hill
...
Kevin Ortiz
well if the church posesses land and without the state they have to care for the people like medical care, care for the poor like in the old times of the church, I could see a society in which the pope for example leads over the property of the church. But I am not a libertarian, I don't know exactly if they are ok with total authority over private property.
Adam Cox
the nap cucks your obtain and sustain power an ancap is unable to preemptively attack someone that's scheming to take over their shit without violating the nap they will die because their meme killed them and their meme will fail to reproduce because it killed the host
Jonathan Baker
cucks your ability to*
Dominic Scott
...
Austin Johnson
not using force only applies to people
Luke Myers
I see your point. To me that would be a Theocracy, because the church is still acting like and performing the duties of a government. We're prolly just caught up on definitions.
Carson Martinez
>you can't buy land wrong
Cooper Richardson
Aww, staving """person""" (not to offend his gender pronouns) thinks patents and IP laws are capitalistic.
Jace Cook
Oh shit my dudes im late. Hail /lrg/, hail our people, God bless America!
Jose Hernandez
Your pointing at a big problem with Lebertsrianism. Where do you draw the line with the NAP? Individuals are not equal, groups of people are not equal, species are not equal. If all individuals get the same rights then this should include every individual animal and plant as well. Is a ancap going to look every time they take a step , avoiding all the bugs? If your being philosophically consistent, you would have to.
Jacob Brooks
>To me that would be a Theocracy yes and so other forms of organisation would also rise and since the absent of an government they have to prevail against all other forms of models and I believe that the conservative values will prevail in the longterm. and strong family bonds will become more important too without a socialist healthcare system.
Charles King
we don't deal with the NAP, ancaps do, we still have laws and a government
Dylan Watson
Or you are the meme way too literally.
Juan Scott
taking the meme way too literally.*
Jaxon Gonzalez
i take my memes all the way
Camden Murphy
I'd consider you a socialist then, but it's only words and our own definitions
Samuel Smith
I draw the line at people who are incapable/ideologically opposed to Libertarian ethics and non aggression. If you use commit to a violent lifestyle or follow a violent ideology your rights are void. This is the basis of non aggression. It is a flawless axiom until retards misinterpret it's meaning.
Jace Perez
Good for you, jew.
Eli Rogers
>I'd consider you a socialist then the only way you could have insulted me more is if you called me a commie
Charles Wright
I want to hope moral values would live on, I just don't see how in a "survival of the fittest" type situation, morals are not necessarily evolutionarily benifical
Joshua Wood
I apologize, but I believe a true capitalism can only exist without a government, and by merely existing, the state taints the free market.
Landon Cook
Commie.
I kid. I do believe in a direct democracy sort of government. Presidents are elected dictators, however much you love them.
Benjamin Gonzalez
the fuck did you just call me
Jaxson Nelson
So you think violence against an ignorant person is justified?
Ayden Jenkins
He called you a Jew, kike.
Jeremiah Jones
this is inevitable, authoritarian cucks are proving the point that theirs is the inferior system for inferior population
the moment of what must be done is getting ever so closer, I say let's hasten the day
Brody Rogers
no need to apologize, it's no big deal
Justin Nguyen
Ignorant as in violent because he's dumb? Yes. Absolutely.
Jacob Allen
AYO HOL UP!
Camden Watson
The NAP is useless in reality, it is just a moral standard, left from european values, especially property rights and don't harm anyone who is innocent, it will just sort itself out with time I always think about it like in the old days of europe, where there was no strong government, the NAP as a hole is just something people with too much time on their hand pulled out to make a philosophical point. >morals are not necessarily evolutionarily benifical they are you need a big family and be on good terms with them, because you need each other, so no degerate kids who wants to be transgender and have a sexchange to fuck tyrone, because they can'T afford it without a family backing them up and if they would do it on their own they wouldn'T ahve anything when they are old because of their degenerate lifestyle which also leads to no reproduction. and if you make enough money to pay for nurses when you are old, still no offspring, which leads to a decrease of this part of degeneracy.
Juan Brooks
You said the NAP does not apply to people who don't believe in libertarianism, that does not link them to violence.
Brody Richardson
burger
Jace Diaz
Yes it does link them to violence. They reject non initiation of force.
Dylan Perez
Jew
Jason Moore
I have a question for all right libertarians since I have split with the right socialists, Iam working on an alliance with conservative libertarians irl here. and so it comes that I meet tomorrow with some classical liberals and some libertarians, but what I saw from german libertarians on youtube they are all left libertarians, so how should I aproach them or what should I expect in gerneral from them, should I admit that I am a fascist or schould I start with hoppe, or just go along with them for the beginning?
Jeremiah Davis
Your second point: I can imagine how morals would be beneficial in that situation, but I can think of many situations were morals are not useful, and even a hindrance on well being. First point: I believed in Libertarianism because I thought it completely adhered to the NAP, which for me at the time was the extent of a enlighten and completely moral society. Now that I question the NAP, how people only use it against humans and not all life forms, I see it is not completely consistent. If this ideology is not completely consistent, why not be a fascist or a commie?
Ayden Hill
Jokes on you oven dodger, I love merica memes. Especially on 1776 day. I'm eating a burger right now while I laugh at you.
Nathan Sanders
>pretend to be ancap >actually stirnerite
Jose Green
Because they don't know about it, some one could go there whole life without know what violence is, and still not committing any violence.
Hunter Cox
burger
Jacob Carter
The US is a minarchy, a constitutional minarchy.
And what you see today is the result of minarchy.
The moment you let public domain take hold of a society you open the door for democracy, it's impossible to have it any other way.
Levi Perry
Left Libertarians are cancer. There's about as much debate with them as social justice kids.
Landon Powell
Hoppe forces left libertarians to contradict themselves rather quickly if you're well versed in his line of argumentation. Just prove to them that they have a vision for society and that they will need violence for it, should not be too hard if they're closed minded.
Joseph Campbell
same
Brody Adams
What's stopping degeneracy in an ancap society?
Parker Fisher
sauce on that?
Noah Rodriguez
I care not about their ignorance. I care about non violence. There's nothing more you can get out of this. I don't know what you're trying to get out of me. This is very simple. No aggression, no problem. You don't have to read Rothbard.
Isaac Torres
because animals and plants can't express their free will, that's why they are considered property, again things that just derived from our european values over the time, there is no need for thinking about a nap it is a thing that gets way too much attention in my opinion also I am a fascist but just on the spiritual part not on the material so I don't care for a state or a party. the residends of the village, you know how people kicked out jews or thieves or rapists
Ethan Hernandez
Reminder thst this pasta needs a mention of "Objectivism" deserves a mention in the OP as it encapsulates Nationalism, Capitalism, Meritocracy, Individualism, and Libertarianism all rolled into one. Libertarianism is only useful as a technical qualifier and is basically incomplete Objectivism. Objectivism without the epistemology. youtube.com/watch?v=erytcpYpzRk
This. NatSoc general and their pretending that they're right wing can fuck right off. Neocons sre cucked to Libtards and NatSocs to Commies, of which they were merely a competitor and not diametrically opposed to. Anyone/thing NOT diametrically opposed to Communism is ubercucke in my book.
Lucas Scott
I guess I thought you were justifying violence against those who might be violent in the future. I wanted to challenge you on that to either change your point of view or come to a closer understanding of each other, and I think we have. But back to my original point, degeneracy is not violence so you cannot use force against degenerates. Now what's stopping these people from flourishing in your society? Government can't because that is violence against the peaceful.
Jaxon Flores
i don't know m8
Brayden Myers
...
Luis Foster
nap is truly the greatest of spooks
Kayden Sanders
I wrote about this in another thread, pic related
Lucas Bell
Lol, I like what you said about being a spiritual fascist. I've lately come to to think of a perfect society as having no fiscal or economic, laws and policies, but having very strict social laws, limiting degenerate behavior. I will from now on call it spiritual fascism!
Jason Flores
I still hope they are some way conservative, one of the classical liberal who is coming is a coworker of mine and we can agree on many points except his devotion to democracy, so I hope he got some conservative people in there. but still they are germans so I expect some kind of cuckoldry. If they are left libertarians I just hope they don't start their autistic screaming
Andrew Lopez
Against degeneracy. Property rights allows the proprietors to exclude anyone he wishes. This means innept people and degenerates alike, and there is good incentive to do this being the destructive nature of degeneracy and their tendencies towards Socialism. Sure we don't approve of murdering them. But we very much approve of kicking them out of polite society and being rid of them.
Camden Jackson
And yet Japan is getting stronger and they are one of the gayest least religious societies in the world. Rethink your priorities.
Bentley Mitchell
Hello fellow libertarians, how are we smashing the government today?
Thomas Martinez
Retard doesn't understand self interests beyond stealing for immediate profit. Stirnerites are truly short sighted idiots.
Austin Hernandez
>I've lately come to to think of a perfect society as having no fiscal or economic, laws and policies that's what I was always thinking until I found out that capitalism and free markets are those things, I lost many years fighting capitalism not knowing what it really is because of the lies of my right socialist friends at the time.
Xavier Morales
I'll put a mention for you my man.
Kevin Ross
I agree that these are accurate arguments against what is currently being used to curb degeneracy , but it does not tell me how the ancaps will stop degeneracy. I understand some of the problems today that lead to degenerate behavior would not occur to the ancaps, but what is preventing degenerate behavior in this "survival of the fittest scenario? I don't beleive it's evolution, because I can imagine ways in which degenerate behavior can be evolutionarily beneficial. What else could stop it?
Nathaniel Wright
Eating burgers and lighting up illegal fireworks.
Brody Robinson
Happy 4th to you all, my friends.
Luis Long
God bless.
Caleb Hall
muh enlightened self interest will never make you truly compassionate and moral, because there will always be opportunities to be egoist without suffering any consequences
Juan Young
I agree with you 100% on that, but when you have a free market of moral principles, so to speak, the most "good" values are not always the most beneficial and can lose to more "evil" values
Lucas King
Japan is economically fucked, they are de facto a US colony their population will soon shrink and all will sort itself out.
Elijah Green
FUCK YOU
Easton Sullivan
I see that as an unjustified use of force, and by that point you might as well be a fascist.
Jonathan Fisher
That is why the strentgh of a nation must come from within yourself, you can't really say you are an honorable nation, if you need the state to prevent you from becoming an heroin addict and die from it. and another good thing is that without a socialistic healthcare system those junkies will sort themselves out because no insurance company will take them and if they try to rob you for more money to buy drugs you can jsut shoot them and nobody would care.
Christopher Morales
Stealing and murdering are not in your long term self interests. The difference between objectivist egoism and Stirner egoism is the time preference.
I'm not a randian, but I know what she's talking about.
