Do you believe we'll see a basic income within 10 years in our western societies?

Do you believe we'll see a basic income within 10 years in our western societies?

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Yeah maybe. I don't think we should trust him the nuclear codes though.

Of course not. Western countries are already in huge debts, and their means will continue to shrink as their nonwhite populations grow and their white populations age and die.

What you're suggesting is, should we pay more taxes so we receive basic income from the government? That's brilliant user.

tax corporations based on their level of automation and use the funds to support a UBI. Either that or the economic system collapses because there is no consumer spending to drive the economic cycle.

retarded pinheads won't agree with this because they are too stupid to understand and too deeply propagandized.

>10 years
>Western societies
Looks like we've got a real optimist here.

They say its from the money from the profits of automation.
hurr

automation is fast coming. It's estimated almost half the jobs will soon be filled by automation

What do UBI/Single Payer supporters think of the Rust Belt, where work has been completely automated, everyone receives government assistance in the form of SS/Medicaid/Medicare, and they have a huge drug problem?

We are seeing it right now. Look, you typed the words basic income. That made it real.

Oh definitely. It's the only way neoliberal capitalism will survive.

>everyone receives
bullshit
>they have a huge drug problem
drug addicts are sick people who need doctors not jail cells

>implying you won't just be left in the streets to die like every other country with enormous wealth inequality

>drug addicts are sick people who need doctors not jail cells
They're also often people who are down on their luck and have no prospect for a job. Drug use goes up with unemployment rates.

Though I also agree with you.

UBI is utter shit.
It's communism-lite except keeping the exploitative corporations and without seizing the means of production.
No wonder fags like Zuckerberg are behind it he will literally control large swatch's of society's means of survival.
You want to get fucked over support UBI. It is literally the WORST economic platform that has ever been thought of, worse than even communism.

Remember when socialism was the next big thing that would solve everything?
Remember when communism was the next big thing that would solve everything?
Remember when Fascism was the next big thing that would solve everything?
Remember when free-market capitalism was the next big thing that would solve everything?

Those are called utopias.

Doesn't this sound a bit, I don't know, utopian?

So obesity and drug use, which have dramatically increased and are driving up the costs of healthcare, will be fixed by spending more money on healthcare?

Why don't we look at why more people are becoming drug addicts or obese rather than fixing the symptom?

Basic Income ought to be thought of as a band-aid for systemic issues, like Social Democracy.

It'll ease the pain for a bit, but the underlying problem will still be there.

>It's the only way neoliberal capitalism will survive.

Uh, yup. The value of all labor is being systemmatically driven to zero. We'll probably see UBI or civil war.

Not in the US. The incoming social security debacle will definitely prevent people from authorizing another massive entitlement program like it.

>will be fixed by spending more money on healthcare?
hey retard, you're currently paying for their emergency room visits when they overdose anyways. it would be cheaper for you and me both if we just paid to put them in a treatment program.

True and I somewhat agree. Second question would then be how do you curb hyperinflation of basic goods pricing and what social programs do you eliminate since UBI takes their place.

>g-g-guys our social security system and economy are overloaded and crumbling we need to do something

>maybe we need to start spending even more money over grape juice, watermelon and booze?

Brilliant user you're hired!

No.

UBI is the most deatructive idea not in place but being peddled.

It is misguided to think that man free from struggle and labor would do great things with his time.

This idle life is destroying us.

>drug addicts are sick people who need doctors not jail cells
Top kek. Stop making excuses for your deadbeat dad and whore mother.
Drug addicts are weak-willed degenerates that need to be executed. They don't offer anything to society, and seeing a doctor won't change that. Their issue isn't the drugs, nor is it mental health. It's a lack of drive and self-mastery.

>how do you curb hyperinflation of basic goods pricing
UBI gradually replaces earned income as the nation becomes more automated, there is no influx of cash and no hyperinflation.

>what social programs do you eliminate
direct cash payments to the unemployed could go, and so could food stamps. You could kill social security too since they basically would be serving the same purpose.

>humans are unable to achieve perfection or a utopia
>so we better just do nothing at all, because if it's not a perfect utopia, then it must be horrible

Wow, deep shit Mr. Socrates. Keep up the good work

It's more because of the value of labor is dropping while the cost of living is increasing.

Somebody's projecting.
I'm sure you're contributing an awful lot to society, user. Much more than [insert drug addicted artist/buisnessman here] ever did.

such a tough and edgy boy you are. would you pull the trigger and murder another human? What would Jesus think about that?
fucking moron.

And yet the dumbshits in California are going to push for single-payer until they die.

I understand the argument for Single Payer not being more expensive than the status quo and being good redistribution policy.

I don't understand how it fixes the root cause of high health costs. Every socialist makes the same argument.

>how it fixes the root cause of high health costs

you want to make health costs go down? stop letting corporations sell a product on the open market that has inelastic demand which peoples lives depend on. its deeply immoral to sell health care for profit and the fact that we let corporations do it just proves how most americans are economically illiterate.

God hope so I need something to live forward to

Labor is devalued by a complex set of points that leftists and capitalists agree on.

My solution would be that any corporation that does comex work studies on its employees and develops processes, software and machinery to operate at the skill of their good employees should have to pay liscencing fees to their employees and their families based on stealing their value add.

Thesen ECMS in trucks are notnjust theirbto monitor safety, you damn well better they are compiling shit tons of sata on how and why some laborers are awesome and figuring out how to simulate that with computers/machines.

I am in management and I promise you that is what they want to do. Amazon is fucking notorious for that bull shit it is why I won't use them

Basic income and greater socialised policy may gradually come into effect as machines, AIs, robots etc take over more and more of the physical and mental labour which humans now do.

It's possible that the means of production will be held by the elite I suppose (and we might actually be pointed in that direction)

It's already being trialed in Canada and some European countries, and to be honest, it's probably the most utilitarian approach (in the future).

I don't say this as a socialist, but as an egalitarian, as such things promote an equal playing field without attempting to ensure certain outcomes (and forcing people to those outcomes).

>I don't understand how it fixes the root cause of high health costs.

Insurance/cartel system has no inherent pricing control. Insurers can simply charge more - especially with coverage being mandated. Single payer with competitive bidding cuts down on cronyism and puts downward pressure on pricing. Works better when the purchasing authority is at the local or province level. Less prone to graft.

It just works. Healthcare costs are far lower in Canada and New Zealand, and the quality of care is just fine.

OK, remove the profit motive from the HC industry. Aside from there being
- No Way to accomplish this, by legislative or executive fiat or otherwise
- Mandating a mindset shift on the behalf of an entire industry ,
- an incentive, especially with Single Payer, to Not Reduce Prices and actually price gouge with little transparency,
I'm OK with it.

2nd, again, how will we reduce obesity and drug use? Are we going to give everyone time with a GP every month? What if there aren't enough GPs? What if there aren't enough RNs? Giving healthcare to the needy in an emergency is humane and Christian. But there are problems in Healthcare that are unrelated to it Not Being A Human Right.

Automation has just about peaked except in trucking and administrative roles.

A lot of warehouse and manufacture jobs now are so low on touches with humans the infrastructure is too expensive a capital investment or too costly to run and operate for swings in business volume.

As long as the gibs me dat government doesnt fuck up too much, people are safe. Cities and towns charge tool and machine taxes on equipment manufacturers and warehouses utilize it just doesn't get a lot of publicity.

Yes, something the masters can use to leverage people
It will be hailed as a great advance for the disenfranchised (what it should be)
It will be used as the rightful cause for dismantling of various safety nets
After the amount is set, it will not be corrected for general inflation, using the usual excuses, until it amounts to a precarious underwage
It will just be used as leverage on people, breaking the universality of it through court cases
Inflation will hit basic needs while luxury items will lower their prices, making survival a challenge for those on UBI but luxury an afterthought for the overclass

Basically, another tool to extract money off the people and the state, it just needs to be tweaked a bit

>No Way to accomplish this
literally every other first world country figured it out, why is America to stupid to do the same?

>how will we reduce obesity and drug use
obesity: stop subsidizing the shitty food that makes people unhealthy. Corn syrup is cancer and it costs pennies on the dollar after subsidies
drug use:
decriminalize and provide treatment. Drug addicts are sick people who need medical help.

>Automation has just about peaked
no friend, automation has just begun.

youtu.be/7Pq-S557XQU

would be good for me, that's all I know.

>implying doing some shitty job you don't believe in makes sense just so they let you survive

"its estimated" by who?

Every economist thats not a hack realizes that automation is just a meme. We have more of the population working today than we did every decade before us. Are you trying to suggest that we arent more "automated" than we were 100 years ago?

Morally, a UBI is superior to today’s welfare statism. The question isn’t whether this is an ideal option that will fix everything, but whether it is a relatively better option than doing nothing and leaving what we have in place remain. With a UBI, we should expect a more efficient bureaucracy, a reduction in waste, less rent-seeking and a higher degree of societal stability. The dynamics of a UBI are market friendly, too. As the Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek argued, the provision of services by the state distorts markets and stymies private competition. Accordingly, a UBI would get rid of conditional wealth distribution to all people. Concurrently, a UBI would also reflect our belief in liberty by removing paternalistic elements of the current welfare state by erasing the constraints on purchases dictated by food stamps and ending the condescending preconditions of drug tests and proving that you are looking for a job. The end to patronizing wealth redistribution will incentivize innovation and entrepreneurship as more people feel financially confident to venture on starting a new business. The transition from a coercive market to a free market where people can choose where to work will encourage employers to attract employees with higher pay and more flexible hours. The government has no right dictating how we should spend our money.

we ALREADY have basic income. It is what us tax paying citizens call WELFARE

>robot tax

Drug addicts are people too lazy to know when to stop. Stop making excuses for bad behavior you stupid fucks.

>Automation has just about peaked except in trucking and administrative roles.

It's barely begun. nvm the fact that trucking and admin currently employ > 1/4 of our workforce.

Rural populations and inner city populations are the leaches.

its stupid to say people wont have jobs anymore. We just wont have certain kinds of jobs. What people dont seem to realize is the amount of work a single person is able to do also increases exponentially as technology increases. So while yes a robot will be able to do more and more work, but so will every person. And ultimately there has to be a person at the end of the chain designing the robots and such.

I dont forsee a computer ever being able to learn critical thinking or reacting to unforeseen events the way a human can.

Invite low iq lazy third worlders into country. Give them free income. Watch as they breed like rats and wait for civil war. Nice plan you got there leaf.

It really hasn't "just begun"

I promise cost/benefit of automating jobs that are left doesnt pan out. You cannot lay off conveyor systems and having been a part of a stupid muh automation project four years ago that wasted a couple million bucks or so a lot of that shit is political scare mongering.

Machine parts are often patented, specialused and require liscence or lease and only so much supply exists.

Just a week or so ago we had a machine fail catastroohically taking out rented unit and brand new unit going to replace it. Only one manufacturer in Canada produces it, lead time ~month ship time ~ another week. We brought in pool of temps to compensate and will likely not get more or replace again.

There will be work, especially for innovative laborers

im very much under the impression that all this automation bullshit is being pushed by global elites because if they can convince the population that universal basic income is a necessity then they have a "good reason" to hike up the taxes and control even more of your property.

>paying subhumans just to breath and reproduce

how fucking completely against any form of logic or self preservation as a species

alaska

alaskans get 1000-2000 bananas a year

they call it oil revenue or something like that but its really basic income since everything costs so much there

Yes, I think it'll become inevitable. It's still a bad idea, but governments will start to do it.

Idk. It'll certainly be interesting how we react to automazation.

I think we should once unemployment reaches like 40%. With automation, we will see unemployment sky rocket, so either we'll have a mass poverty situation, including starvation despite there being plenty of food, or we'll have basic income.

Of course, I don't think we'll reach 40% unemployment in the next 10 years. It'll probably take at least 20.

i would also like to point out that if machines are really that efficient it will cause prices to drop dramatically so people having to get paid less wont really be that much of an issue.

whats interesting about the basic income thing is the potential for it to spawn large low income communals. In the past we had flop houses that offered living conditions for bare minimum, and though several health and safety regulations have been put into effect since then, many places are now offering more of a dorm style living condition for cheap; especially given the tendency of this generation to rent.

Moreover, how would basic income change across state lines, because 11 thousand in texas is an entirely different thing than in cali. Have people addressed this in the community promoting it?

What about UBI combined with the elimination of minimum wage?

gude mem

no it wont. we are much much more automated than we were 100 years ago, and yet we have a higher percentage of the population working.

>We NEED immigrants to do our jobs!!!

>Labor is becoming WORTHLESS we need to give everyone basic income!!!

really triggers my action potentials

Universal Basic Income is already in effect, it's called pensions and it just bankrupted Illinois practically. Illinois has a deficit of 21 billion dollars and over 130 billion dollars in unfunded liability. That's just one state.

So lets look at the other example of single payer currently in effect in the US, the VA. Ask anyone and they'll tell you the VA is utterly shit. 53 days just to have a check-up. This is what you Basic Income cucks want? Get your heads out of your asses and wake up.

Think about it for two seconds you spaz.
>everyone gets a paycheck
>this will support everyone for basic needs
Doesnt that just sound too good to be true?
And I didn't say to do nothing, you strawmanning motherfucker, I said "doesn't that sound like a utopia"?
As in, some good things have come from each of the ideas on my list, but don't get your hopes up that this is going to solve anything.

>muh new jobs will magically appear
Don't be retarded, something like 40 of the top 50 jobs are actively being automated

wtf I love serfdom now. can't wait to be totally held hostage by gibmedats

How is it that rural cities/states have been the smartest with money/resources? They provide for their own and are minimilist. They DONT WANT the govt. Its the inner city that are leeches.

>a fucking redditor

OMG Hawaii was a mistake.

You don't get it. They've been saying the exact same thing for hundreds of years.

>The automation is coming! The automation is coming!

People used to have jobs as human alarm clocks and telephone operators and thousands of other obsolete jobs.

>kenya

what reserve are they going to pull from to give kenyans a basic income; they can barely feed their own fucking people. They would need a wealth injection of infrastructure or straight up food for this to do anything other than inflate the prices for what's already out there.

>You don't get it.

No you don't get it. Automation is reaching a critical level. Any "new" industries that pop up will be mostly automated from their inception. They won't be employing laid-off truckers. salespeople or admins.

No I get it fine. Were 5 million (1.66% of the population) alarm clocks? Because 5 million people are cashiers right now, and that one of the most common thing being automated.

How about retail associate? Because from what I can tell, most people do most of there shopping online now.

How about food prep? Nursing? Waiters? Customer service reps?Janitors? Truck drivers? People that unload the trucks? All these jobs are being taken by robots, and that's about 20% of the jobs that exist.

With AI, we will have robotic thinkers replacing our engineers, and our doctors, we've already seen the loss of factories.

There aren't any more jobs. It's a fact. Theres a common analogy, imagine being a horse right after the car is invented. You might think "well, every new invention has only made our lives easier, so this car isn't something we need to worry about" and 50 years later horses are literally only used a novelties.

>laid-off truckers.

This is a meme. Truckers are not some colossal industry, it's just that we tend to lump ALL truck delivery stuff together, rather than breaking it up like we do for most other professions.

>Theres a common analogy, imagine being a horse right after the car is invented. You might think "well, every new invention has only made our lives easier, so this car isn't something we need to worry about" and 50 years later horses are literally only used a novelties.
>not realizing the horse and the car are just tools for humans, and putting the horse as the subject instead of the object completely misses the point.

you talk like a fag and your shits all retarded.

Not an argument.

UBI is probably necessary before strong AGI.

I hope so. I still have Ontario residency, I could use that extra $30k a year.

>put humans on ubi by taking the profits of robots
>humans can't survive without robots working anymore
>humans now have the same relationship with robots as our pet dogs have with us now
nice future can't wait

UBI will be a thing, but it's a middle way solution on the way to a post scarcity society that has no concept of money. It shouldn't be a goal but a transition.

>if you rely on something to produce wealth, you're a slave to it

by that logic we're slaves to energy production and manufacturing plants. You can choose not to live with it, but it makes life much harder and you couldn't support the current quality of life without it. Also, i don't support UBI, but the luddite shit is getting to be annoying in here.

>Do you believe we'll see a basic income within 10 years in our western societies?

More like within 20 years. I have no doubt it's coming, but we still have a TON of details to work out.

UBI is also incompatible with mass migration, so unless we find a solution to this, it won't be happening.

Are you fucking kidding? Why create UBI when you can just genocide the excess people.

And for you shitheads who don't understand, UBI only exists in places with EXCESS revenue from production, like oil rich states and nations.

Let's start by killing the Germans again

I don't agree with this.

those plants are still controlled by humans.

>Do you believe we'll see a basic income within 10 years in our western societies?
it's here now in the USA.
>mfw baby's 1st step for Federal UBI is the EIC (earned income credit) and then there's Alaska's permanent fund for residents of that state.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

and robots aren't? even with automated car factories with high end robotic materials engineers are needed to upkeep it. Moreover the software behind it constantly needs updates. Couple with that the fact that continuing technological development will allow for innovations that increase productivity to the point that business will find the investment worthwhile, and you have a long term market for robotics production and upkeep. I imagine that low skill workers could be integrated into this field, but i can't read the fucking future.

Nah bud people will just get other jobs. This idea that we'll ever be post scarcity is fucking laughable.

No. Get a job. I'm not working to support 10 achmeds and their 100 children.

Not Sure

It would actually save money

think for a minute of all the money governments spend on transportation, energy, healthcare, education, pensions etc

what if you take all that money and divide it into equal parts for every citizen? you could actually save money by firing millions of people working in public administration. let people buy whatever services they want with the money

Yes

With priority access for minorities/historically disadvantaged, as per GBA+

It will last at most 2 years before destroying the country

Have you not been following the discussion? For a vast segment of the population, there won't BE any jobs. Manufacturing and manual labor will be hit the hardest.

Fucking die in a fire.

>Do you believe we'll see a basic income within 10 years in our western societies?
Naturally a fucking leaf is asking for free money.

Get off you fat ass and work like the rest of us, leaf.

Thessalonians 3:10 says "He who does not work shall not eat," just in case any of you leftist faggots want to keep pretending Jesus was a socialist.