Memeball thread

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>advanced
>works only with unlimited resources

Isn't that a major problem of capitalism? How can we have a "grow or die" society in a finite environment?

Seeking Infinite growth leads to our pathway to the stars little brother :^)

capitalism is not necessarily about growth as much as it is about transformation of wealth and production. resources are allocated where they are most needed or desired, sacrificing those needs that have low prioritiy

Only if we don't destroy ourselves first in the pursuit of short term profit...

Opportunity isn't finite. People who create new products and services will continue to profit in a capitalist society.

Communism is finite because you'll eventually run out of someone else's money and everyone starves. See also: everywhere tried

>infinite growth
>finite resources.

>USSR
>The definition of "unlimited resources"
>Economy collapses circa 1990
>B-b-b-but that wasn't real communism!

Maybe in theory, but can you point to an example of actually existing capitalism that hasn't taken a cancer-like approach to growth?

They didn't even have socialism in the USSR by 1930. Bolsheviks betrayed the revolution.

How is "grow or die" a part of capitalism? Sounds like a commie meme.

Capitalism is private property rights and the right to trade unmolested/peacefully.

Peaceful trade means the property that exists should be distributed based on the amount of input of each actor and the subjective preferences of all the people participating in the market.

You'd have to find an example in history where people lived in a free market economy and nothing new was invented, nothing new was discovered, no one thought of anything different, and all prices remained constant. Growth is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. Obsession with infinite growth is a problem with governments, not markets.

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The stars are not for man.

>ethics
>if something serves case of revolution, it is ethical. also fuck kulaks.

cool ethics bro

This is an extremely simplistic analysis. I point you to the OP

yea its not until its subverted by the kiked out federal reserve all money is debt form

Do you not see my flag? Fuck the Bolsheviks.

i was just reffering to image anarchy-kun
are you mollyneux type of anarchist?

> Says it's simplistic
> Doesn't point out what is incorrect.

> inb4 says read a specific book while still not saying what is incorrect about my post.

>I used the word "social" and "material", therefore I am advanced

>Growth is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. Obsession with infinite growth is a problem with governments, not markets.
What? Markets chimp out every time a country presents low GDP growth rates.

Go take a economics class retard

>You'd have to find an example in history where people lived in a free market economy and nothing new was invented, nothing new was discovered, no one thought of anything different, and all prices remained constant.
In other words, you would have to find a system that wasn't capitalist

>free market
>prices remained constant
Holyshit, the how simple minded can you be?

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so let the markets chimp out
its also a consequence of the requirement of constant growth to sustain the debt service
you go from profitable to bankrupt in an instant because of how leveraged we are causing the markets to react appropriately to growth slowdown. the debt/leverage makes that dire. we could just be building up unencumbered wealth instead.

>still believes in labor theory of value
>ideology will only work in a post-scarcity society
>claims to read advanced economics

Just because something is simplistic doesn't mean it is wrong.

And low-tier posts do not deserve a high-tier response. You are not entitled to a well thought response, specially when you made such a simple-minded post, made by someone who obviously has no clue of what he is talking about

So you agree the US isn't capitalist because the private owners don't control the MoP? Great, because then USSR isn't socialist because the public didn't control the MoP, either.

Our resources aren't finite faggot.

>Energy
The sun's output dwarfs what humanity will ever need for energy. One day we will have cheap solar panels that are efficient enough to power all our needs.

>Food
Requires nutrients which naturally recycle, and energy, which we just established we have practically infinite of.

>Water
We have more than the human race will ever need.

>Heavy elements
We have enough to get into space, mine asteroids, establish planetary bases else where, to the point that we will eventually have more than humanity will ever need

>Labour
Once AI, self driving cars and robotics improve, we will have enough labour to do all humanity's labour.

All we need to do is perfect solar power, improve space travel, develop terraforming technology, crack nuclear fusion, and improve AI, and we will hit the point that economics becomes obsolete for everything other than trading luxuries.

Within our lifetime we will see the cars, AI and solar. Within our lifetime we will have no need for economics any longer.

Here's the thing: socialists are right about what will benefit humanity, but they are wrong on the timing. It is too early for socialism. Glorious capitalism will give us the technology we need to have unlimited resources, and then it will obsolete itself. THEN we murder the bourgeoisie, but not yet. For now we need to just print money to keep gdp ahead of debt and stop using immigration, because these low skilled workers will become a liability once AI is perfected.

Supply and demand determines the value of something. Finite resources is why supply exists, otherwise there'd simply be demand.

Supply and demand helps make better use out of resources by acknowledging it's finite, only so much can be made before you flood the market, and only so much can be made before you lose all your resources. This leads to more efficient means to be found to elongate the life span of resources, and to discover alternatives.

See this

>Let's live in a world of perpetual recession and instability

I tots see nothing wrong with it!

>proceeds to write some more simple-minded autismo economics

>Markets chimp out every time a country presents low GDP growth rates.
Right, and rather than let them do that we fill it full of artificial money to provide fake stability. It's not a good practice.

>In other words, you would have to find a system that wasn't capitalist
Yes that is exactly my point.

>Holyshit, the how simple minded can you be?
I don't think your English skills are very good, but I can't speak Portuguese so I'll let it slide.

Portugal, you DO live in a country of perpetual recession and instability.

>So you agree the US isn't capitalist because the private owners don't control the MoP?
What? Private owners do own the means of production in USA. What means of production are state controlled in USA?

>all we need is things that dont exist
kek

WONDER WHY THEY WOULD DO SO........ COULD IT BE THAT ESTONIA IS PLANNING ON ATTACKING RUSSIA????..... HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>Energy: One day we will
Fuckin kek friend.
>Food: we have practically infinite of.
wait, you were serious?
>Water: mixing water with potable water.
pls, user, stop
>Heavy elements:mine asteroids, establish planetary bases
Madre de dios.

> terraforming technology, crack nuclear fusion

Go to bed kiddo.
I can't think I'm debating with a grown up person with this kind of arguments.

I actually think we are ready for a post scarcity society today. There is enough food production, water and shelter for everyone in the US.

We need to move past a model predicated on infinite growth though, or we will destroy our natural environment and squander our potential until we go extinct.

>them: doodoo economics
>us: GLORIOUS ADVANCED GENIUS ECONOMICS NO DUMB ANCAPS ALLOWED LMAO
Literally pic related

>What? Private owners do own the means of production in USA. What means of production are state controlled in USA?
youtube.com/watch?v=4DxXHh-p-O4

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>squander our potential
You are vastly overestimating the potential lurking in people who want to get paid to do nothing.

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Literally a shit tier YouTube propaganda video. Don't you have homework to do it something kiddo?

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>get paid to do nothing

That's known as the bourgeoisie, friend.

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This is the best one

So if the video is such obvious misinformation, so blatantly wrong, it must be like child's play to prove it wrong, right? It must literally be like drinking water to prove it wrong. So please explain how the claims presented are inaccurate and disinformation.

Portugal is many things, but it isn't unstable

>MUH NOT REAL CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't evade the point. Explain what you meant with "The means of production are not privately owned in the USA"


Crony capitalism is the natural result of capitalism. It's when the corporation acquire so much power that the border between state and private enterprise get's really thin.

>nu-flag calling people "kiddo"

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A woman who owns her own hair salon is considered 1% to you. You have a child's understanding of owning a business.

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>Explain what you meant with "The means of production are not privately owned in the USA"
The video presents the points. I suggest watching it.
>>MUH NOT REAL CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So if the video is such obvious misinformation, so blatantly wrong, it must be like child's play to prove it wrong, right? It must literally be like drinking water to prove it wrong. So please explain how the claims presented are inaccurate and disinformation.
>It's when the corporation acquire so much power that the border between state and private enterprise get's really thin.
Do the private owners of businesses have freedom to trade on any market they wish? No subsidies exist manipulating markets arbitrarily by... non-private owners? This is the result of your claim, you need to watch the video and explain how this is not the case.

Bullshit. Every single capitalist country has done everything possible to keep growth above x%. Even your great crises (1934, 197X, 2008) are recognized as such by a period of stagnation or *gasp* negative growth of gdp.
Keep larping about your rugged individuality, but a civilization that measures achievement in dollars is

we "DO"?

I could sit here and create a well researched little essay for you explaining in detail all the problems in that video, but I know it would just be a waste of my time and energy in response to your low effort bait.

Aye, they be for more than men. Ye might call them ubermenschen.
>year 2034
>not roaming the high galaxies for space booty

>I could sit here and create a well researched little essay for you explaining in detail all the problems in that video, but I know it would just be a waste of my time and energy in response to your low effort bait.
>I could actually present my counter-argument, but I'll pretend like I already have and call you a doo doo head who is so dumb that he couldn't understand it
Okay, you're just setting yourself up for a great rebuttal. If the video is such infantile nonsense, why not just... present your counter-argument instead of attacking the source or the character of the uploader/me?

>waste of my time
yea Becuase you can't find anything.
God commies like you are the reason why I get pushed away from it.

Ah yes, the highly reputable and extremely noteworthy Fund For Peace Dot Org

Bourgeois are the people who live from investments. They are the people who live from the hard work of others.

They aren't the CEOs (technically, a CEO is middle-class, since he earns his living from a salary), or the small business owners.

>perpetual recession and instability
the instability comes from the fucking debt load you mongoloid
the leverage is a race to grow and burn through resources
the alternative is sound productive investment without allowing people to leverage their animal spirits into booms and busts
think of original US settlers. you start with a small homestead and slowly grow your assets. if you started with a giant loan your production requirements will cause you to be living in an unstable volatile world
every single fucking dollar we have is tied to massive debt requiring massive production
its our sickness
it does lead to quicker growth but its absolutely what causes the stress and horror

No, that salon owner would be classed as petite bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeoisie are different from the big industrial bourgeoisie. We don't take the simplistic view of "the 1%".

yes
#1 world priority should be stopping the worst genetics from reproducing
current #1 world priority seems to be the opposite

>a finite environment
The universe is an infinite environment you dumb fuck. The question is what ideology is best at retrieving these resources

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>They are the people who live from the hard work of others.
Slavery has been abolished in the US for over a century now. Minimum wage laws exist.

>only free market anarchism is capitalism
>literally using the >"MUH NOT REAL CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

>The universe is an infinite environment you dumb fuck.
>can't barely reach mars.

I'm not a comunist but this kind of argumnets are damn retarded

>petite bourgeoisie

Ah, so sent to a much smaller gulag?

>They are the people who live from the hard work of others.

So people on welfare?

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>"MUH NOT REAL CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Okay, so if the points are so obviously wrong, explain how it is wrong. How can a state intervene in the markets and subsidize industries while allowing the free market to function? It's a simple question: is there intervention in the market? Yes or no? Do private owners have the freedom to trade with anybody? Yes or no? Access to labour?

All wage labor is exploitation by the extraction of surplus value.

The bourgeoisie contribute nothing and take almost everything.

Yes, ye do. Though I'm jus' a lowly genera contractor, I literally work wit' me hands every day, I be accused o' bein' a rich elite by ye punk assholes all th' time. Me owns generation makes me sick as a wench with a touch of the rough

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>but this kind of argumnets are damn retarded
Explain to me how this idea is retarded, show me the borders of the universe user. I will admit humanity may be too stupid to ever reach any of this, but don't tell me there isn't enough matter in the universe

Capitalism doesn't fucking mean "free markets", it means a society where the means of production are privately owned and operated to extract a profit for a small class of economic vampires on the backs of the working class.

The observable universe doesn't count btw, there's still shit out there >:(

stable boys shouldn't speak like that to their sustainable masters.

This is why I hate these stupid ass flagball memes.
They had another one where it was Russia poking Turkey with a stick, and Turkey snapped it (in reference to Turkey shooting down the Russian plane)

But the plane was IN SYRIA (RUSSIA'S ALLY), these dumbass Poland flagballs are going to be the death of me. They're so stupid, they GOT to be made by a Pole themself.

>All wage labor is exploitation by the extraction of surplus value.
Are you self-employed?

If you work for an employer, when you sign the contract, there is a little conversation you have about your salary. If you like it, you agree and sign. When you sign, you can't break the contract. Therefore, when you sign a contract, it is no longer exploitation seeing as how you could always work for yourself and set your own wage. Or you can live like the primitive communism our ancestors followed: in the woods.
>Capitalism doesn't fucking mean "free markets"
Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
Try again.

What matters it's not the matter in the universe. there are things we can't even see, and even in the observable universe, we struggle to go to mars, and it is right here at our solar system.
universe travel and conquer it's not what anime and videogame show you my man.

>i will redifine capitalism with my own set of highly arbitrary conditions so i can make the argument of >MUH NOT REAL CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAHHHHHHHHHHH

>Capitalism is an economic system and an ideology based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

>is some sort of libertarian/ancap
>doesn't even know what capitalism is

Everything checks out

Also, you don't own the business so you do not decide what you are paid. There is no such thing as surplus value. You mean a business's profits. All the profits the business gained would not account for what you believe your wage should be. This is because modern employment is not in an isolated system: it is an interwoven network of effort with multiple units contributing to the finished product. One person ships it, another advertises it, etc. Every unit has a just claim on the "surplus", it does not exist as you know it. It is the owner's.

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>with my own set of highly arbitrary conditions
Literally google it.

Capitalism and communism are both corrupt. There needs to be a third option which both has a private sector with a free market & a strong public sector that serves the people.

>Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

This is literally just what I said repeated. Where the fuck does it say "free market" in there? I swear you rightists have no idea what basic terms even mean...

I know this is asking a lot since you probably don't have a job, but start a business sometime. Invest 80 hours of your week, all of your money, and assume all risk, and then have some faggot college kid tell you you contribute nothing while they press the 'dispense coffee' button on the machine you bought and trained him to use.

finite ressources are what give them value

the universe is technically a near unlimited amount of ressources,which we're working to exploit, so i don't see your point

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
>Private ownership of the means of production
"Private property is a legal designation for the ownership of property by non-governmental legal entities."
Still haven't answered a simple question: do the private owners own the MoP?

You are speaking true, it might be a struggle but I think we will get there. I don't particularly want us too I think humanity need to do one at this point. Nothing good will come from it anyway

nigger, are you serious??

>Where the fuck does it say "free market" in there?
States interfering in the markets and dictating how and what limitations are set on trade don't allow private owners to own the MoP.
Using your logic, socialism existed in the USSR, even though the state had the final say. If you can't trade with anybody you want, then you do not have free trade: the state has the final say.

"Needs" are not an independent variable and will continue to grow forever no matter how much you feed them. There is no objective measure of "basic necessity" and never will be.