Why do you care?
Are you personally poor?
If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
If you're poor and you're living in a third-world country, I get it. If you're NazBol and you believe in spooks, I get it. Otherwise, why do you give a fuck?
>inb4 deflection
>inb4 whataboutism
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theintercept.com
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Socialism addresses the fundamental ineffciency and absurdity of laboring to generate exchange value. We've already reached a point in human development where we can provide the material conditions necessary for a dignified standard of living to every last human on the planet, but a misallocation of power has ensured a misallocation of resources which has ensured that millions still die for want of food, shelter, and treatment, and the rest of us waste most of our lives on non-essential, non-productive labor.
Even if you have a six figure salary and a comfortable NYC apartment, that doesn't change the fact that most of your time is spent doing something you don't have to. That's why everybody should care.
You didn't answer a single question.
Why am I surprised.
I know why you consider inequality a problem. I'm asking why you give a shit if you're not personally suffering because of it--which you very well may be. Answer my questions though.
>Even if you have a six figure salary and a comfortable NYC apartment, that doesn't change the fact that most of your time is spent doing something you don't have to
Wrong. If you have a six figure salary you can pretty much live however the fuck you want.
>We've already reached a point in human development where we can provide the material conditions necessary for a dignified standard of living to every last human on the planet
Why do you believe every human deserves a "dignified standard of living"? What constitutes a "dignified standard of living"? Do you have any proof that there are enough resources to provide a "dignified standard of living" for 7 billion+ people?
Inequality isn't a problem in itself though. It's a natural symptom of a fundamentally degenerate social order, and those at the top are acting entirely within their perceived self interests. Taxing billionaires more doesn't address the root of the problem, which is how power, not wealth is distributed.
Anybody who performs socially unnecessary labor to generate exchange value (almost everybody) is being swindled by capital. That's why I care and you should to.
>If you have a six figure salary you can pretty much live however the fuck you want.
You're an idiot.
"Deserves" is a spooky word comrade. Mutual aid has been a decisive factor throughout our evolution as a species: far moreso than competition. We all get along better when we collaborate.
>dignified standard of living
Shelter, food, medical treatment.
>Do you have any proof that there are enough resources
Global crop yields are currently something like 1.2 times the amount of calories needed to feed 7 billion people
There are five abandoned properties for every homeless person
These are the inefficiencies of life under capital.
>are you poor?
yea
if so, why?
i havent killed myself yet
Why are you deflecting?
>Anybody who performs socially unnecessary labor to generate exchange value (almost everybody) is being swindled by capital
Do you, yourself, perform socially unnecessary labor? Why? What do you do? Why don't you perform socially necessary labor?
Why haven't you answered these questions?
>why do you, personally, care?
>are you poor
>if so, why?
>if you live in a first world country, what's your excuse?
>if you hate being a wage slave, why not start your own business?
>if you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods?
Why do you care about the problems of others?
You were the one implying that every human deserved it.
>Shelter, food, medical treatment.
How much food? Enough to live comfortably or enough to barely get by? If the standard of living for the average middle class American would drop after a global revolution, why would they fight for such a future?
>There are five abandoned properties for every homeless person
The vast majority of homeless people are drug addicts, lowlifes, and the mentally ill who can't function in a normal society. Giving them a house wouldn't do them any good.
Bump for debates
He won't answer any of the questions because he's living in an ideological dreamland. Communism can only exist in a fictional environment.
>Do you, yourself, perform socially unnecessary labor?
I don't think so. I'm a public school math teacher. I'm very active in our labor movement but it's actually more difficult to analyze modern educators from a Marxist perspective than it is to do so for a factory worker or something. This is a field that doesn't generate revenue that is so blatantly skimmed off the top from our labor.
>Why don't you perform socially necessary labor?
When material wellbeing is directly tied to employment, there is only so much socially necessary labor to go around before people need jobs in more tertiary fields to support themselves and their families. This is one of the sources of what Marx identified as alienation. Consider how we'll always need farmers, doctors, teachers, production workers, etc. but not everybody can be one. So secondary fields such as marketing, investment, consulting, retail have cropped up to work within the absurd confines of the system that's developed. A lot of these workers know their jobs ultimately contribute nothing to our collective wellbeing, but they can't just stop doing them.
When material conditions are accounted for, this tertiary labor ceases to be necessary.
Any assumption that there's enough money and resources for every person on the planet is a 100% autistic thought. Honestly, you're a complete imbecile. There's 7 BILLION people on the planet and only about 60 TRILLION dollars on the earth, if it was all converted to dollars, and counted as the broadest category of money. If you take any amount of money that is considered livable, let's say, $40,000 yearly, the world would be spending a nice $280,000,000,000,000 to feed and home and clean every person on the planet. Let's go even lower. $10,000 a year per person. That takes your total to 70 trillion dollars. After you take into account living expenses, bills, and food, you're left with about 6 months of shelter and fucking nothing else. Kill yourself you braindead mongoloid.
>why do you, personally, care?
I want to live in a freer and less stressful society.
>are you poor
No, but I can't raise a family on this budget. I want kids but also know it's unwise to have them now.
>if so, why?
Market economies are inherently more expensive because somebody has to profit at every exchange. My house is expensive, my transportation is expensive, my healthcare is expensive. Yours are too.
>if you live in a first world country, what's your excuse?
Every person under capital works harder than they need to, and pays more than they have to. You do too.
>if you hate being a wage slave, why not start your own business?
"Business" is redundant and a large part of what makes our society so inefficient.
>I teach common core and can't compete in the free market therefore I'm entitled to infinite gibsmedats
You're operating under the assumption that socialism is one enormous welfare program. It's not. The fact that you're talking about paying money to house people shows just how myopic your perspective is.
And yet you have yet to provide a suitable answer for the first question, let alone most of the others.
>Why do you care?
human decency, charities aren't enough of a security
>Are you personally poor?
no
>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
k
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
I like my job (science/ag)
>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you
I do live in a rural area for work and I don't really like people. Anarchists (including """""libertarian anrachists"""""""""") are childish as fuck
My point is that there isn't even enough fucking money to pay everyone in the world so how is any of that on a small scale going to work at all
Even "winners" in a free market are stiffed by capital. The winning move is not to play in the first place.
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
Isn't that like wage slave x10? Everything I know about people who start their own business is that it is A LOT harder work than simply working a regular 9-5.
I'm poor because I'm lazy and I hate work so I work 3 days a week on minimum wage.
I think I deserve to be poor though since I had every opportunity not to be but made bad choices based on laziness.
>You do too
You're assuming quite a bit there, big boy
>I want to live in a freer and less stressful society
Why? Define free. Where do you live? What's stopping you from moving to a place that's more free and less stressful?
Money is a token of exchange value. Why would a society focused on use value be concerned with this?
Why don't you move to Venezuela? That country is socialist and would align with your political views.
>human decency
slave mentality
They're both scams you fucking idiot. Capitalism just lets the slaves have a few better scraps and less risk of dying of malnutrition.
Why would anybody ever do anything if they don't get shit out of it? There's not a single person to ever exist that has done any action that doesn't seem or appear in their mind to have some sort of beneficial effect to them.
>Everything I know about people who start their own business is that it is A LOT harder work than simply working a regular 9-5
And yet according to communists they're just lazy pigs who steal their employees wages. Really makes you think.
XxSlav3M3ntalityxX
we are all slaves to something
It's a mathematical fact. That you would argue otherwise suggests that you don't even understand capitalism. If somebody is compensated for 100% of the labor value he generates, then how does the holder of capital profit?
Freedom is the liberty to spend one's time as he wishes. A market-driven society will always be less free because you are working beyond the time and exertion necessary to ensure survival.
And don't forget that the communist says that everyone is entitled to everything these lazy pigs produce.
turn your real flag on please :^)
lefty pol you cant make beats like this
Only biology, my friend.
Right. Most of us have to work to a certain degree to benefit ourselves. The problem is that we all work far beyond that point for the benefit of a parasitic class that contributes nothing to our wellbeing as a species.
Socialism is drawing demarcating that point and doing away with this parasite class.
>The problem is that we all work far beyond that point for the benefit of a parasitic class that contributes nothing to our wellbeing as a species.
yeah, they're called kikes and niggers
absolute parasites on the white man
oh wait you meant rich people
I, personally, make enough money to make myself happy and also not have to work long and stressful hours. I think socialism is an excuse for people who didn't make the right choices earlier in their life.
>It's a mathematical fact
What is? What makes you think I'm even partaking in this system and not living innawoods myself?
>Freedom is the liberty to spend one's time as he wishes
What would you rather be doing than teaching math?
All of them are eiher non-white or fester a degenerate fetish that they can't stand to see criticized.
Not even joking.
An owner of a bakery or something can be said to be jilting his employees, but he in turn is being leeched off of by landlords and banks.
There is room for administration positions in socialism, but not for blatant rent-seeking and usury.
Essentially, my answer to all of your questions is that freedom is best defined as "being-with-oneself-in-another."
Why?
Read Hegel and secondary scholarship on Hegel (Pippin, Pinkard). This will give you the answer that you want. Leftypol is made up - loosely speaking - of various camps of Hegelians. Implicit in your post is a fundamental misunderstanding about the relationship between the individual and the collective.
He saves his money and gain skills till he has enough capital and real world experience, to be an entrepreneur. If he is to dumb or unskilled, he humbles himself and lives a good life being middle class and contributing to society.
Or he is a loser antifa who gets drunk, ruins others people stuff, and has sex with other men.
Because giving a shit is how you make progress. Regression starts with apathy. I personally feel like we as a race need to grow and one day when people are wondering around on other planets we can set up a group that reads through our history and LEARNS something. I feel like I do have a real responsibility to move us forward, grab all the stupid motherfuckers that not only sit out but also actively try to fuck us over with their shitty economic and social governments. Smash some fuckin skulls, because you cannot fix stupid, you can only go so far with educating people before you need to start pulling some triggers and culling some heard's. We're ultimately living in a very irrelevant time UNLESS we do some big shit. The thing is big shit doesn't happen when people don't give a fuck.
Hey /leftypol/
>Zionist groups funding rise of nationalists in the Netherlands
timesofisrael.com
>Israeli lobby pushes for Geert Wilders
dutchnews.nl
>Austrian Far-Right finds allies and support in Israeli parliament
ft.com
>European far-right and Israel form strategic alliance
theguardian.com
>Jewish groups back the AfD and Pegida in Germany
forward.com
>European Fascist parties receive backing from Israeli right
972mag.com
>Israeli intelligence services conclude that a far right Europe would be safer for Israel
jfjfp.com
>US Jews pour money into financing of anti-immigration parties in Europe
electronicintifada.net
>European Far-Right forges links with Israeli right
haaretz.com
>European far right dangerously anti-Muslim and pro-Israel conclude European intelligence services
theintercept.com
>Dutch Secret Services investigate Israeli links with Dutch Far Right
i24news.tv
>The problem is that we all work far beyond that point for the benefit of a parasitic class that contributes nothing to our wellbeing as a species.
Why.
Do.
You.
Care.
How is it personally hampering the way in which you want to live your life?
Why do you care about what you perceive to be the suppression of others?
And even if you've carved a comfortable niche out for yourself, it's still one that is more expensive than it had to be.
It's one thing to understand why you're not especially motivated to challenge the status quo, but by actively defending it, you're still working against your own interests.
Archived that for you
>theguardian com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/israel-rightwing-europeans-migration-toxic
archive.is
You are unable to deal with a reality consisting of a multitude of fears. It is too overwhelming for your emotionally stunted psyche. The true complexity of the world is not something you can cope with.
Thus, the fear is simplified into something more manageable for you: the Jew.
If you're a hermit in the woods you are not even participating in society and your perspective is pointless. Humans are social creatures.
I like teaching math and would continue teaching math under socialism. But I could do so under less precarious conditions.
>How is it personally hampering the way in which you want to live your life?
healthcare costs, property costs, good costs, transportation costs, education costs
communist must die
I get what you're saying, but capitalism helps drive technological development, as well as many other things. I don't think the resources themselves are getting more expensive, rather the amount of rare materials and amount of work put into a product has increased.
1.) Freedom consists in being in a certain reflective and deliberative relation to oneself (“rational form”)
2.) The above is possible if and only if one is already in a certain (ultimately institutional, norm-governed) relations to others, if one is a participant in certain practices.
As you can observe, this account is resistant to any analysis of these forms of self- and other-relation that would isolate the possibility and the very content of any self-understanding from social and political structures at a time, so it is much less straightforwardly psychological than many other modern theories.
Okay faggot, enlighten us, and spare us the pretentious grandstanding and absolute faggotry. I'm interested to hear how the solution to human prosperity and greatness is just a more nuanced understanding of Hegel and other dead philosophers. Marx indirectly led to the deaths of around 100 million people so I don't have much hope, though.
>fear
this is how all leftists operate too so I don't see why this is a criticism, fear is a human emotion sometimes rooted in a logical position
There you go assuming again. I said nothing of living alone.
>healthcare costs, property costs, good costs, transportation costs, education costs
Where do you live?
>education costs
That's on you for not getting scholarships and/or choosing a meme degree that only lets you teach at a public school.
>but capitalism helps drive technological development, as well as many other things
This is not even disputed by most Marxists. Very few people dispute capital's ability to spur development, which is why it's generally considered a prerequisite for any eventual socialism. It's also why third world revolutions (which I still approve of in spirit) are often flawed from the outset.
The problem is that we eventually reach diminishing returns with capital-driven development as it becomes something bloated, redundant and ultimately self-serving. Not to mention disastrous to the environment.
>environment
fuck that, it's 1 AM and it's been a good discussion. Good night.
>environment
meme
>The problem is that we eventually reach diminishing returns
space, the final frontier
>the solution to human prosperity and greatness is just a more nuanced understanding of Hegel and other dead philosophers.
I did not say that. I said what leftbook's position is. They are interested in Marx, Stirner, Zizek, etc. - philosophers whose root is in Hegel. Most importantly, the understanding of what constitutes freedom. Leftbook believes that freedom isn't just getting what you want uninhibited by coercion.
>spare us the pretentious grandstanding and absolute faggotry
cry about it.
I've engaged you in good faith and answered the same question many times now. You either just don't get it or are being willfully obtuse. I'll say it one last time, then ignore you when you inevitably ask again:
No matter where you go or how much you are compensated, you will still pay more than is necessary under capital due to the very way markets operate.
I am not complaining about rent in Boston costing X, or an fucking Obamacare silver plan costing Y, or my salary being Z. If you keep thinking in these terms you've missed the point entirely.
Your questions are all aimed at retarded strawman arguments that demonstrate you don't actually want to know anything about left wing political thought.
Those inefficiencies provide more options in what things you can have.
I'd rather have inefficiencies than be forced to take whatever lcd bullshit some asshole who doesn't know my personal needs designed.
Makes for a dull inhuman life.
ciao
Who's talking about Leftbook? This thread is addressing /leftypol/.
If you're not even /leftypol/, why are you answering for them?
And why refer anons to read others instead of explaining them yourself?
>Why do you care?
>implying
>Are you personally poor?
Broke right now, have been cash flush several times.
>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
Ask your dad to give you a startup fund to hang yourself, faggot. Some areas are impossible to make money in, as in, regional areas, not just business sectors.
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
>if you can't make enough money to live comfortably, why not use that money you don't have to become a captain of industry?
>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
Stop fucking monopolising the woods you faggot.
Why should everyone be equal?
look dude, commies DON'T care. They are projecting. They are inferior, foolish, shitty people who want more stuff. Because they are shitty and can't make things less shitty on their own, they MUST advocate an ideology that lifts them up via force instead of merit, which is why oftentimes they think they will be the next great leader or a card-carrying party member or some shit instead of a fucking farmer
you will never reach any meaningful conclusion the same how you can ask a hobo all day why he's homeless, he will defend himself being a hobo to the death because he chooses to be a hobo to whine about it for gibs
I'm planning on going innawoods
Because our present mode of social organisation is ecologically unsustainable, and we are headed for a catastrophe. Either we will create an ecological society, or we will simply go under as a species. Through social ecology, we find that the roots of our ecological crises are in hierarchical modes of social organisation. That is, the very idea of dominating nature stems from the domination of human by human.
tl;dr google bookchin
t. literally fifteen years old
>inb4 what did you say you little bitch i am 45 and a CEO of a fortune 500 country and i made it from the bottom of a nigerian immigrants anus this is freedom you musrat i will airstrike you
>Boston
So, if I understand correctly, it all boils down to you not feeling "free" enough, you believing that socialism is something achievable in your lifetime and thus something worth supporting, and you caring about the well-being of your fellow man. Gotcha.
>not answering the questions
I'm a junior engineer wageslave aristocracry member. But you're right actually, I could end this if I wasn't so spooked. I wish it was so easy to just drop all that shit though.
fuck I'm high.
>every last human on the planet
stopped reading. You are so misguided its sad :( thats me frowning
Actually it's capitalist with a formerly widespread social service network.
>Why do you care?
>implying
If you don't care then why ascribe yourself to any ideology in the first place?
>Some areas are impossible to make money in
Only for retards
So why do people want communism if it's failed each time its tried?
quit disliking my vids faggots
>tl;dr google bookchin
Kys r*ddit
I'm an anarchist becauase I'm extremely disillusioned and alienated by capitalism. I would guess I have similar reasons as to why you are Sup Forumstards, just that I took the class pill instead of the race pill
I care because it's in my self interests to further an agenda that benefits me.
>Only for retards
a/b/solutely ebin my american memer friend. Historians will look over this conversation and remember when economic disparity was BTFO by one man and his typically gigantic gut.
>not answering the questions
Because the questions are retarded.
>Why do you care?
I got into leftism in general due to global warming as a starting point. Realizing capitalism is the enabler or source of a lot of problem is why i care
>Are you personally poor?
No. Come from a self made family
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
>If you don't to be exploited, why not exploit others instead of ending the cycling of exploitation?
If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
>If you want to dispel the State, why not live in a remote piece of state land instead?
Very condescending questions desu. OP doesn't seem to want to hear what lefties think but just shit on them in a more polite manner
That meme was on /leftypol/ before it was on leddit you gigantic faggot.
>he gives reasons
>"Why don't you just be better at living in this shitty situation?"
That is besides the point, maybe he fundamentally enjoys being a math teacher. His point is that shit is expensive to him, and he'd rather it not be. He believes that socialism/communism/some kind of post-marxist theory will facilitate that. You can either argue why things should be expensive, why things aren't actually expensive, or why his solutions would fail him.
Also, talking about "where do you live" ignores that he might want to live wherever he lives. Maybe he lives in San Francisco and doesn't want to leave, but property costs too much. What do you say, tough shit? That ignores his preference for living in San Francisco. If you disagree with it that is fine, but you're asking questions and he is answering, and you're just telling him to stop bitching and change his life/preferences.
why are you describing yourself
don't you see any fucking irony in everything they say?
>I'm too stupid to succeed in capitalism
>but somehow not stupid enough to make communism succeed, despite it's massively poor track record
>lookatme I can read karl marx's 3 books of incoherent ramblings, Das Kapital
>but I can't read books on personal and business development to actually do something about my life
>the economy will be more efficient if central government plans everything (socialism), trust me goyim it's foolproof my info says it is despite all the gross assumptions made for ease of calculation
>rather than an economy where everybody plans individually and independently with more real-time information that can never be practically reported to the state (laissez-faire) with more reliable info
>communism is inevitable
>but we must unite and overthrow and establish communism a.k.a. it's not fucking inevitable if you have to do something about it
go vote for corbyn somewhere else, bong
The problem is I don't care how many levels of woke you're on about what the concept of freedom is and how to best achieve it through an ideally chosen governmental system. There is the physical world, and there is the system we humans have currently chosen, and all I see Marxists doing is saying everyone is entitled to more free stuff, especially in white countries where said stuff is disproportionately produced by whites, to be given away to shitskins that produce nothing, but for "humanitarian" reasons. It's a thought bubble that has no bearing to what is actually occurring or will occur. I have no incentive to give up the capitalist system and submit to redistributionism. In fact, that sounds like I would have no incentive to produce at all because it will just be taken away and given to worthless shitskins and greasy hippies that have nothing to do but sit around and read political philosophy.
Humans adapt to the circumstances. Capitalism is not a conscious choice, not really, except the choice to agree to laws and the use of money. Human need and greed does the rest. Your very notion of freedom in an idealistic bubble separated from the reality on the ground is just a mental trick. I feel pretty free, all things considered.
Equality would mean ensuring that everybody has the same score in a game.
Socialists want to stop playing the game.
Nice strawmen, I'm sure the powerpoint presentations you perform are brilliant in getting your end goals achieved.
Then why imply that you didn't care.
>t. brainlet
Where do you live and why are you unable to make a decent living there? Why didn't you study hard in school? You only have yourself to blame.
after you labor all day
Then fuck off. I wasn't looking for discussion with this thread. I was asking /leftypol/ to answer some simple questions which are only ever met with deflection and whataboutism when asked irl.
not an argument
stay poor faggot. People like you are why I happily vote conservative
Why do people worship capitalism when it's barely hobbling for decades now, and it's not falling on it's face only due to government handouts?
Because implying I inherently care is the same bullshit that everyone peddles like socialists are a humanitarian cause joined at the hip with faggot liberals.
>a bloo bloo bloo stop trying to take my stuff i worked hard for it
How about no. I studied hard at school in a shithole county and my goal is to rip what you have out of your hands. Deal with it you easily triggered trumplrina.
>I was asking /leftypol/ to answer my retarded, obviously biased bait questions
>Why won't you just play along?
>People like you are why I happily vote conservative
It probably has more to do with your material interests friendo
We're coming for your toothbrush bucko.
>Why didn't you study hard in school? You only have yourself to blame.
>Actually believeing the meritocracy meme
I swear Micheal Young is spinning in his grave
>he lives in an immaterial world
if you cared so little of material interests, you would not care about capitalism then because it's all so irrelevant. OH WAIT haha
What? I said people vote mostly FOR their material interests