Universal Basic Income

Give me your thoughts on this. It seems to me like the only real option for developed countries in the heavily automated world we are rapidly approaching, other than communism which is dumb.

People say it's not a political reality in America at this time, and I agree, things are still pretty comfortable right now. I suspect that much like with the New Deal, it will take the coming automation unemployment crisis to actually bring about this massive change.

Some people say innovation will save us from a jobless future, this does not seem to be likely as new high tech innovative industries are not creating nearly as many jobs as they are destroying (think Netflix vs Blockbuster). This is different than previously in history when automation and greater technology would actually lead to more jobs being created.

Others say education will save us, but we don't pay workers based on the value they create anymore, productivity has entirely delinked from wages. The only thing that matters is the scarcity of the workers skills. If everyone knew web design it would pay as much as working at McDick's. I fully support education but it just won't do anything for the problem we are facing other than increase the minimum cost/time barrier to entry for workers as greater and greater skills are needed to compete with automation and other people.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=A9eC0O7DHZ0
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10176151
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

4 options.

1) Fascism: retraining programs and mass conscription to give people work and purpose

2) Socialism: automation replaces as much work as possible, people do whatever they want to do in their free time (probably laze around)

3) Capitalism: the poor either figure out how to survive or starve to death, automated warbots defend the property of the capitalists from revolution

4) Social Democracy: UBI is implemented, you can still work but the rewards are decreased due to high taxes

You haven't thought through the math if you actually think this is a viable idea.

>5) Some shitty combination of all of the above

this is what will actually happen

In a society with UBI I would refuse to contribute to such retardity and just decide to help crash the system as quickly as possible. I would play video games and masturbate to anime girls all day long.

im ready to get my ubi and just smonk weed

Set fires.

This is basically what would happen.

Basic income cannot work in a capitalist society. It only works in principle if half the population is already working and the country has a commodity that generates enough to supplement a UBI.

Norway and Alaska are the only examples i can think of

Regulate and restrict automation

>Fascism: space program and architectural wonders for the glory of Terra*

Op is a deep thinker

>other than communism which is dumb.

I would kill niggers and spics. What other answer is there?

I would be run as a law maker and make it so raw milk could be sold in Kentucky.

We would just need to increase corporate taxes back to something like they were in the 50's. We could also eliminate a lot of current welfare programs which are incredibly wasteful by replacing them with a far more efficient UBI.

This is irrelevant to the topic as those activities would still be illegal, regardless of the economic system.

I like where your head's at, though.

Well we already know what niggers would do.

running*

>what would you do if your income were taken care of?
As a parasitical R selected subhuman, I would immigrate to any country foolish enough to implement this and hoover up as much free stuff as I possibly can so I can have a horde of bastard children that will eventually turn into criminals and have bastard children of their own until my virus-like genes have completely devoured the host society.

And why would I choose to keep my business in the US?

>what would you do if your income were taken care of
I would eat my government approved insect flour based nutrient square and live in the same city I was born in because universal basic income can't cover moving costs while doing nothing but playing MMORPGS to fill the void

It's something that will be required when, and only when, automation is delivering utopia.

Cool, just doubled my income. Now I can buy property and rent it at exorbitantly high prices after I collude with my friends.

Damnit.

Automation is the commodity which generates enough wealth to supplement a UBI. It generates far more wealth for developed than any natural resource ever could. It's the primary reason behind massively increased worker productivity in the last 50 years.

niggers would spend all of their money on stupid shit and then ask for more

I'd become more of a random statistic than I already am. The rich would have widen the gap more than it already is by decentivizing trying to get ahead. The rich would stay rich forever. I'd be considered null and void on a whim.

And don't forget that they're monitoring you and if you complain about it they turn off your chip and you starve to death.

Inevitable. With increasing automation, falling profits, stagnation of wages, and increased cost of living, basic universal income will be the only way that neoliberal capitalism (or rather any semblance of it) can survive

90% people would do jack shit? Have you talked to anyone lately about their hobbies outside of whatever garbage job they have?

>watch movies
>video games
>cooking

Those are hobbies to these people. No building, no researching, almost no outdoors, no projects, nothing. Don't tell me people have no time. I have 3 kids and can work on my hobbies.

"Useless eater" is the industry term.

5) civic nationalism: there is a UBI but you would still have participate in society by some form of civic participation

No. There is no use in creating a society in which most of it's people toil away wasting their lives doing meaningless tasks which could be done by machines. Even if this made sense to do, corps would cheat their way out of paying into the automation taxes and meet any kind of human quota the way they game the tax system now.

ubi will fund stuff like this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=A9eC0O7DHZ0

>1
This is probably what most countries will do.
>2
2 is actually gonna look like what you describe as three.
>3
I think you have a very inaccurate view on how enterprise and capitalism works. But then again this is defiantly something (((they))) would do.
>4
Then why the fuck will anyone work?

I think I would actually make pretty good use of this, but I still think it shouldn't be a thing.

A ubi is the only way capitalism will be able to work if the concept of earning a living becomes obsolete.

Leave the country because socialism leads to communism which leads to death.

I get anxiety if I don't work.

This is the most over used topic on this board pushed by those living in a 'the sky is falling' world. Automation will not over throw the working class. It will be akin to the printing press, the radio, the television, and the internet. The industries will evolve around the implementation of automation as well as those working jobs in those fields. Not only is this the same hysteria of when the first automobile hit the streets, it's also blown far out of proportion. Automation is not nearly advanced enough to be self reliant and fully functional. You still need people to operate your systems, build and maintain your systems, as well as produce the parts needed to put the system together. If you are someone who is fearful of this upcoming so called rise of the machine find your place in it. How is your current position or job effected by automation and how can you capitalize on being an innovator before someone else tries your idea? If you would like to get a little Alex Jones on the topic why is it that MSM is pushing the hysteria and the rolling out of UBI? Does this not feel oddly like wellfare 2.0? Is there not a single person here curious as to why the government is trying to encourage us to take free money from them? It seems to be a little fishy and frankly I don't want to be told what I can and cannot do with my own finances. As Rothschild said, you countrol the money supply, you control the country. Think about it.

Will never happen

Do you think the government will just freely give out money without a tax base to support it?
If that's the case than a huge faction of the working class will just become NEETs while the govt overprints money to compensate everyone which will lead to hyperinflation

/thread. UBI isn't going to magically make people content with just above the poverty line, or make them magically fiscally responsible.

I like the idea, but the US has to change a lot before it can become feasible. We would have to have some serious reforms to ensure that people aren't just here for the gibsmedats. Maybe, to be a citizen, you have to show that you will actually work and not just live on UBIbux

I can't see it working until we have the technology necessary to make a highly decentralized form of communism work (Startrek Communism). We need three things:
1. The technology to convert energy into the forms necessary to sustain human life for next to nothing
2. Governments to buy the rights to these technologies and make them a public resource available to all
3. Abundance of energy

Can I just draw some shitty crayon 5 minute drawings once or twice a month repeatedly stating that this is being done to the best of my ability and that you simply don't understand the drawings and claim I'm trying to advance the arts?

UBI wouuld just lead to hyper inflation and devaluation of whichever currency was distributed as the UBI. It's literally the most retarded fucking idea on the planet after human induced global warming.

this will never work in the US but it might be ok in europe

at least up until like 100 years from now

What would I do? Not work, that's for sure.

t. Didn’t do the math

We should just give everyone 1 million dollars a week, then we will ALL BE RICH RIGHT!?
fucking clueless commies

Don't fall for the fucking meme. It's a refundable tax credit rebranded as a revolutionary new idea. They want you to think this is a trailblazing idea with insufficient evidence for evaluation. It's not new. It's a refundable tax credit. You can decide if those have worked or not in the past.

probably a lot more drugs and a lot more video games

People keep talking about UBI because they want to turn people against the idea, because the first two questions always asked iare

>Can our country actually afford this (pls pls say yes)?
>Why the fucks would millionaires get it too?

Negative income tax and the 20 hour work week are the way to go. You pay people who actually need it until they get a decent job and you increase the scarcity of labor.

Of course, this is all predicated on full automation, which we are decades away from at minimum using weak AI.

>Universal Basic Income
Oh gee whiz, it's this thread again. It's like nobody knows how this universal basic income thingy going to end up in reality.

UBi doesnt mean you don't work. You can receive an income and still be productive with your day. But automation just means that your human labor won't be able to compete IN A MARKETPLACE with automated goods and services. i.e. you won't be able to make quality/quantity that anyone would want to spend their money buying.

I am pro-basic income.

However, the implications are that those who would rather not rely on that system (myself included) will take full advantage of it.

If we start receiving basic income, all of that money will end up being diverted to food, shelter, and utilities - and nothing remotely comparable to what we have today.

Basically, we're already seeing something similar here: Our welfare state has been partly responsible for driving the bare-minimum monthly budget for basic needs up to about $500 on average, which happens to be the average welfare check.

On basic income:

-> You aren't going to be able to buy yourself lab equipment and tools to learn and explore nature.

-> You won't be able to buy a new computer for at least a few years, maybe a few decades.

-> You won't be able to buy a new car. Ever.

-> You will never own land.

>automation
I'm not worried, I'm in sales

>what would you do if your income were taken care of
Should that say "income WAS taken care of" instead?

If we want wealthy companies to stay in America what we need is a smart, educated population which is not forced to spend much of their time working long hours for little pay. Look at the number of incredibly successful tech companies in California, a high tax state. Companies look at a lot more than taxes when deciding which country to base themselves in.

Doesn't work.

KEEP THE PLEBS OCCUPIED WITH BUSYWORK 9-5 OR THERES GONNA BE TROUBLE

DONT JUST CUT UBI CHECKS AND LET THEM DO ANYTHING, MAKE SURE THEIR TIME IS LOCKED UP MAKING WIDGETS OR WHATEVER

i'd do nothing and become an empty nihilist obviously.

What you thought I was going to change the world? Why bother.

I'd sure eat a lot of shitty junk food and watch more TV!

It's funny that this is the attitude most people have. "If I got free money from the government, I know I would use it to do great things but I don't want it to be a thing because everybody else would use it for shit"

Automation won't deliver utopia on it's own. Automation just drastically increases productivity, using those gains to achieve utopia is a political victory, not a technological one.

only if you can prove your functionally retarded, we can use that drawing as fuel for the home we will place you in.

nothing
>like every other animal ont his planet would do
we would cease to evolve because we would only pass on weaker genetic lines
>we would cease to be our creators image.

It's a serious option, but ONLY for highly developed monocultural, ethnically homogeneous nations. In those places the government can provide basic income from tax, but also rely upon the people to be self-sufficient and maintain a defensive force.

Basically, only for our dream world. Not for here. But I DO encourage it on the basis that I think that it will destroy our governments.

>What would you do if you gave the state absolute power over your ability to feed, clothe and house yourself?

No that's retarded

run around fixing people's shitty assembly line built houses for food and goods - constructionism is the only answer

I would argue that automation doesn't actually accomplish this, however, i will acknowledge your line of thinking because Germany is an excellent example of automation being the type of strength to supplement UBI via trade surpluses (technically Japan as well but thats an entirely different story).

Automation is a trap tho. If your economy is balanced with a wide portfolio of advantages then you have an entirely adapting economy that benefits from automation. But, the problem is in implementation because peak production is a thing and eventually the production machine becomes so complex that the cost of solving the problem automation indirectly creates destroys the purpose it was intended to do.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10176151

Pic related is Mark Blyth. Watch some of his lectures if you have the time. He argues that it may actually be beneficial to an efficient balanced economy to not have full employment and that UBI may be more effective in a "sharing economy" due to the information age and its disruptive technology (think socialism lite)

Simple. Some people don't deserve any income to live.

To pay 12 grand a year per person we would have to double our federal spending.

It's a pipe dream.

Yup, and that's the nice thing about it. People will still want more than what the UBI is giving them and will seek employment or entrepreneurial ventures. Early UBI experiments have proven to increase entrepreneurship and have not resulted in large losses in labor. Those leaving the workforce often did so to raise kids or educate themselves.

Also, if you have a (((service))) economy like us, it will entirely disconnect the population from labour. Thus, making them totally a commercial unit.

Background checks. Not everyone should be entitled to UBI. It can works but only if the governments really get their shit together and try their hardest to make it work.
>Every abused, sold/bought or addicted to "heavy" drugs?
>Been to prison for X reason?
>Have you not finished school?
>Do you own a bussiness?
>Are you working a full time job that pay well enough?
>Ever had serious problems with the law?
>Are you in a gang or have commited a series of minor crimes?
>You haven't lived here for at least 7 years, don't speak the language or haven't work here before?
No UBI for you.

My idea would be for citizen to apply then background checks, then an appointment to sort the things out and even get housing and a financial plan if there is the chance.
UBI could go so well if everyone tries their best.

>will seek employment or entrepreneurial ventures
yea just like all the niggers without income are doing now, you fucking retard

Yea like I said, the concept of earning a living will become obsolete because robots will be able to outcompete humans at everything.

Cooking is a real hobby, man. But I agree with you. My mates think it's weird I wanna build and create things rather than consume them...

Only lazy niggers, useless and unable to get around in life dream about it.

fuck off back to plebit

Universal Basic Income for Universal Basic Work. You spend time every day growing enough food to feed yourself/your family, and you can do whatever you want with the rest of your time.

What's that Lassie? People can and do already do that? You mean UBI is just a bunch of whiny millennials who want their iPhone and birth control paid for by someone else?

Fuck off.

The only way they can be applied in a fair way is to give it to all those who socially not not, at least, to negative things; preferably just positive social things. Income cannot factor. That removes incentive to work for higher positions.

The point is to raise the minimum spending power from 0 to x.

I'd probably try to go back to school for something related to exercise physiology while training my ass off for MMA

>Do you own a business

Literally what the fucks the point?

> Cant own a business because only possible business would be the large corps and automation
> Going to school would be a waste of time because everyone else would be going to school flooding any job markets there would be active
> Cant build a house somewhere nice
> Cant do anything except consume
Be drunk and do nothing until I have to get a job because the UBI is worthless because if inflation.

>2) Socialism: automation replaces as much work as possible, people do whatever they want to do in their free time (probably laze around)

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this? Isn't the goal of machine production that we don't HAVE to work?

Honestly, it most people can just laze around and have free time, that sounds like a paradise. Saying "work gives you purpose" is pretty dumb, for most people, work is shit.

>Automation will not over throw the working class
I know someone who lives near steel plant in Legnica. Work that used to be done by 30 men now takes 3 men operating high-tech machinery. What are those 27 men supposed to do now? Nobody seems to want to answer that question.

Oh I agree it can be, but these are people who cook normal food and frozen food. Not experimenting or anything. Something like Jas. Townsend and Son would be a hobby or even just attempting stuff like that often.

because I've been jobless before and I didn't just turn into a meme like everyone claims

focus a strong nuclear family with a white woman and 2.5 kids.
Create cultural exports
Participate in law making and governance.
Volunteer to aid those in need; and refugees of war, and brutality.
Study history and language, better my mind and body and become learned.

If only I didn't have to work 40 hours a week in a job I hate.
IN:B4
>Literraly a cuck and a cry baby for complaining, go die starving and diseased in the jungle if you don't like it.
>leaf

Unless you work. Just because you get a ubi doesn't mean you won't be able to find anything to get payed for.

There are so many reasons wrong with that statement that i can't even begin to unpack it.

You can't have a ubi without a way to pay for it and if earning a living is obsolete then you have no jobs.

No jobs = no economy = no taxes = no ubi

Why are leftists coming here pretending UBI is ever going to be something they'll qualify for?

We already have welfare, and that needs a major overhaul.

Put your shitty Gender Studies degree to use, you fucking faggots, and stop shitting things up with 10 posts every hour about MUH UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME IS GONNA HAPPEN AND I CAN BE A PROFESSIONAL PROTESTOR ALL DAY RIGHT GUISE shit.

Literally, hang yourself.

>Universal Work
>Machines do the jobs

Really makes me think.

3 gets my penis hard

I own a second home that I rent out. If UBI were to go into effect, I would raise rent by the same amount as the UBI. Extra UBI for property owners, non for renters.

Some people are already living this dream. I am paying for it.

get high and post here