So what exactly do you believe is being misrepresented? That the persecution was aimed only at Jews? Purely the number of people killed? I understand that one of the major arguments is that the camps didn't have gas chambers and couldn't possibly cremate the bodies in time.
Basically I want to know to what extent do you believe the information presented about the Holocaust? I'm not asking for a redpill, I've seen all the infographics in other threads. I want to hear what you personally do and don't believe about the event.
Now, it's only question of total death numbers for me
Jack Clark
Watch revisionist documentaries. 90% of what you want to know is in there. Then come back and apologize for ever doubting us.
John Rivera
1. It's doubtful that Hitler knew what was happening.
2. Himmler seems to be the chief architect of what did happen, which was the shooting and gassing of people, sometimes Jews, totaling in the six figures but nowhere near 6,000,000
3. There were no gas chambers in Auschwitz, which was demolished and """reconstructed""" in 1948 by order of Stalin. Recon photos and ground photos of the original Auschwitz and the "reconstruction" don't match.
4. The real gassing happened in the "Little Red House" that you never hear about because it's not as good for making money as Auschwitz is now. Auschwitz has been made into a borderline theme park.
That's about it. It's been exaggerated and exploited for money and sympathy, and for a go-to "get away with shit free" card by the Jews.
I will admit though, they really are milking the whole fucking thing and 6 million people dead isn't even a big deal
Ayden Long
Historian user here I, like what I feel is most of Sup Forums believe in what I call the Practice of Concentration, but not what is considered to be the "Holocaust"
Difference: Holocaust refers to the systematic murder of millions of persons Practice of Concentration refers to the systematic imprisonment of hundreds of thousands (perhaps a few million) persons in camps where many did die (but not of systematic death machines)
Personal sticking point: The Holocaust narrative wants one to believe "more Jews died than everyone else combined" That's an asinine notion. Just by statistical probability, there is more of everyone else to go around, and the Nazis did not shirk on rounding up non-Jews. Couple this with 2 facts 1: There are ZERO sources of hard evidence on how many died, just speculations and sources reporting on more speculation 2: After the fall of the USSR every ex-Soviet state that was previously occupied by Germany as well said the same thing (with the notable exception of Poland) that being "Life was better under the Nazis and than Soviets.
Poland is the notable exception because A: All the "Death camps" were in Poland B: Poles were rounded up in mass quantities by the Nazis
Conclusions: While evidence is shaky (but so is the official Narrative's evidence) it is more likely that more Poles would have died than Jews under the Practice of Concentration and thus, that the "Holocaust" is a fictitious mythologization of semi-true events to garner political sympathies for the Jews in the West
Historian's Note: Mass Genocides are frequent in human history; but like the Ukrainians with the Holodomer or the Armenians; humans historically do not care about the plight of a previously genocided people (Except for the Jews who push the Holocaust narrative)
Luis Flores
I don't believe the 6 million number, plus a lot of the propaganda e.g: they made lampshades! (maybe 1 was made by that psycho Ilsa Koch) They made soap! (maybe 1 bar proven to have human remains?) No mass production.
Aiden Scott
Both the death numbers thenselve, as well as the supposed methods used to achieve them.
I question them solely because it's illegal to do so in several countries. You don't ban investigation into an even unless you have something to hide.
Brayden Lee
Yea dude all these documentaries with a political agendas speak the truth! Please... Most of them have so many lies and cherrypicked information.
All their claims are REFUTED by holocaust defenders.
Brody Baker
Are those newspaper articles where they keep mentioning the 6 million jews before ww2 happened real? If they are it seems really sketchy
Nathaniel Evans
t. not a historian
Brayden Jones
it's a kooky religion stop believing it
Chase Phillips
They're real. The six million number has spiritual significance in the Talmud.
Eli Thomas
Good thread OP, bumping.
Also interested in responses.
Christopher Russell
The numbers of dead, which were greatly exaggerated by the Jews.
Justin Rivera
Basically all you've said has been objected before, both here (several threads on 4plebs, I can't recall them now) and obviously elsewhere.
Especially:
>There are ZERO sources of hard evidence on how many died, just speculations and sources reporting on more speculation
I know nothing on the subject, but there seems to be a lot of pressure on the other direction. What do you have to say in this regard?
Also, >1. It's doubtful that Hitler knew what was happening. There've been documents around signed by him endorsing or otherwise acknowledging the imprisonments and killings. What do you think?
Dominic Sanchez
...
Julian Moore
Well I guess it happened, then.
Levi Thomas
...
Cooper Smith
...
Gabriel Stewart
...
Easton Murphy
...
Andrew Ward
More or less, we believe what David Irving thinks.
Aaron Richardson
>I've seen all the infographics in other threads. Then what the fuck is your question about? What you've written makes no sense. "I've seen everything you shown that is faulty about the Holocau$$$t, but I still don't understand what you don't accept about it."
Kevin Morales
>More or less, we believe what David Irving thinks. Except for his very absurd mistake of believing the Eichmann Memoirs were genuine.
Jonathan Ortiz
Holocaust was not a "state sponsored killing program", it was a mass deportation program gone awry during a time of war. Many people died due to starvation and infectious diseases, but nobody was intentionally killed in "gas chambers" (actually delousing chambers)
>Evidence: Look at the delousing chamber doors. They are made of wood, and open outwards. Such a design wouldn't work for keeping prisoners locked inside of a "gas chamber" because they could kick the door out, and the cyanide gas would leak through the hinges, which would prevent guards from being posted at the doors of the "gas chamber".
>But how are a bunch of starved prisoners going to kick down a solid wooden door?
It would be difficult, but if a bunch of prisoners were trapped in an extermination chamber, they would find a way. Perhaps several prisoners could kick down the door at once, with enough effort. It would be preferable to dying, to be sure.
Unless the "gas chambers" were actually for delousing, and we've all been fed a big lie...
Mason Ramirez
>I know nothing on the subject, but there seems to be a lot of pressure on the other direction. What do you have to say in this regard? Lol if that's actually the case then believers should be able to show that 'hard evidence' to us.
Anyone who claims there is evidence for something but then fails to show it doesn't have any evidence.
Parker Bailey
Most of the so called Holocausr never happened. There were no death camps, just camps.
The Germans did not torture Jews or conduct medical experiments on them or make them into soap.
Jonathan Roberts
Loaded question.
The fact that you can't criticize the holocaust without being called a Nazi is reason enough to investigate it. Couple that with the fact that there have been a multitude of instances where "Proof" passed off as "Objective Truth" turned out to be falsified, doctored, or outright fabricated.
Jayden Carter
>There've been documents around signed by him endorsing or otherwise acknowledging the imprisonments and killings. What do you think? Show the documents.
Jaxon Smith
>The fact that you can't criticize the holocaust without being called a Nazi is reason enough to investigate it. Couple that with the fact that there have been a multitude of instances >where "Proof" passed off as "Objective Truth" turned out to be falsified, doctored, or outright fabricated. There are way too many accusations of pic related to not be suspicious:
Ryder Bennett
Likely small time gassing executions. Most deaths were likely right near the end where supply lines to camps and Total supplies in the country were in short supply. total deaths unknown, but it is one of the greatest pieces of propaganda of all time. Given a special name and basically only the jews mattered fuck the poles, the gypsies, the commies etc. Fuck the Germans had millions of Soviet POW's alone. A lot of people were going to die from communicable diseases in those camps its the nature of those places. My favorite piece of history from the era that the mainstream does accept is the Patton Papers. No need to debate newspapers and doctored photos. Something really weird was going on in that era in all governments due to communist infiltration.
It is the most important point in perhaps history. They will never allow it to unravel. Making Hitler much more evil than stalin is very important. If Hitler is not as evil as Stalin the whole narrative falls apart as the west gave Stalin half of europe. And the UK gave up their Empire. the UK lost far more territory than Germany.
Mason Foster
>The Germans did not torture Jews or conduct medical experiments on them Now this is the part I actually wonder might be true. Wasn't the MK Ultra program modeled after Mengelas experiments in the camps?
There's a lot of material in these threads. I've skimmed through most of it and everything seems at least in order, at a glance.
There are even calculations as to how it was possible to literally burn thousands of people per day in crematoriums.
My point is that it is quite possible there is 'hard evidence' as such -- and it is also reasonable that, to a "conspiracist" or "denier", nothing is accepted as evidence, nothing ever fits the bill.
Btw, I don't support or reject either side of the narrative; I'm just interested in fueling the debate and learn more. Also, I've read David Irving for that matter, but I'm not an historian to lucidly assess any of his claims.
Joseph Bailey
>nothing ever fits the bill. It's a pretty big bill that needs to be fit. I'll give the threads a look but you still have to find a way to argue through pic related, as well as all of the bizarre accusations like killing with steam and vacuum chambers and knife rooms..
Luke Kelly
>So what exactly do you believe is being misrepresented? That there was even a plan for mass-executing Jews. Were they rounded up in concentration camps? Yes. Did a few die at the later years of the war? Sure, because of the fucked (by the allies) supply lines and the typhus epidemics.
>There've been documents around signed by him endorsing or otherwise acknowledging the imprisonments and killings. Show them to me. Please, show me these documents that Hitler signed giving order to kill 6 million Jews.
Evan Cox
>There are even calculations as to how it was possible to literally burn thousands of people per day in crematoriums.
It is not possible to burn thousands of people a day in the crematoriums at Auschwitz.
William Howard
>Mengelas experiments Yeah! Remember that experiment where they masturbated people to death?
Horrible!
Nathaniel Ward
1 post by this ID, saged
Luis Kelly
...
Ryder Wood
>Now this is the part I actually wonder might be true. Wasn't the MK Ultra program modeled after Mengelas experiments in the camps?
They didnt do medical experiments. The SS doctors were there to preserve inmate and SS health, most importantly containing epidemics like typhus
The medical staff ordered many improvements to the camps in the way of hygiene and clean drinking water
Grayson Peterson
You can't kill 6 million kikes without most, or atleast a large part of you civilian population knowing
Aaron Brooks
> Like American Japanese, German Jews are interned away from society > Fever pitch war propaganda leads Allies to bomb everything that moves > Six months later > What are these heaps of starved bodies?
Asher Young
>>archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/83556838/ So far I've seen nothing but supposed quotations of Nazis making very convincing arguments for the annihilation of those who brought Bolshevism onto Europe.
Adrian Gray
>They didnt do medical experiments. The SS doctors were there to preserve inmate and SS health, most importantly containing epidemics like typhus >The medical staff ordered many improvements to the camps in the way of hygiene and clean drinking water Didn't the MK Ultra program recruit some of these professionals, though?
Isaiah Baker
>It's a pretty big bill that needs to be fit. I agree. I also agree that the bizarre accusations and exaggerations play their part in making everything look a huge scam, though I think that any such large-scale event would attract this sort of crooks and liars. This is apparently the case of Anne Frank's diary, from what I've read.
Either way, I don't think these fake witnesses should necessarily touch the credibility of other sources. If both sides have arguments, evidence and whatnot, how can I know which side is the right one?
I believe what is being misrepresented is that the camps were more than just prison camps where people were over-worked and kept in poor conditions and sometimes died as a result. I don't accept that it was a direct, intentional genocide plot. If you spend even a short amount of time looking into this, you can quickly understand why someone would doubt the official story. youtube.com/watch?v=Ae_WSV4n-u8&t
Michael Reed
>Anne Frank's diary Not written by her. The handwriting doesn't even match hers.
Justin Allen
are you trying to tell me the holocoaster and wank machines arent rearl?!?!? Or that a hole and a bullet is more expensive than cremation? >Germans low on oil hence push to Caucasus/Stalingrad >has so much fuel can afford to spend burning up 1000 bodies per day in Auschwitz alone >or spent a fuck ton of labor of soldiers and weak prisoners(prisoners unchained and strongt enuff to cut down trees while the narrative is they underweight) cutting down forest for fuel Can only pick one
Noah Cox
They're just self-hating white cucks who think defeating an enemy is somehow shameful
Josiah Brown
>Or that a hole and a bullet is more expensive than cremation? It's much more expensive for the soldier psyche. It also leaves many witnesses and evidences.
>implying the crematoriums used the same fuel as tanks
>or spent a fuck ton of labor of soldiers and weak prisoners(prisoners unchained and strongt enuff to cut down trees while the narrative is they underweight) cutting down forest for fuel Use the healthy jews to do the labor, kill the unhealthy, children, women and old.
Mindblown!!
Aiden Lee
>It's much more expensive for the soldier psyche. >yet shoveling dead Jews into the oven or kicking them inside poison showers isn't Really makes me think. >implying the crematoriums used the same fuel as tanks It used the same fuel as industry, regardless. >use the healthy Jews And who do you think would control and allegedly force the healthy Jews to do the dirty job?
Jace Lopez
>>yet shoveling dead Jews into the oven or kicking them inside poison showers isn't It isn't because it's not german soldiers who did it. It was jews. You clearly have a very limited understanding of this material.
>It used the same fuel as industry, regardless. >Already moving the goalposts.
So what is exactly the issue with this?
>And who do you think would control and allegedly force the healthy Jews to do the dirty job?
Camp guards. Germans used Ukrainians in several camps. To the end of the war the Germans even used women as guards. Even so the camp guards were usually somehow sheltered from the gassing and cremation procedures. They didn't have to see it in person.
Even so it's the difference between a couple of hundreds camp guards to tens of thousands of fighting ready soldiers/policemen
Easton Cooper
>a very limited understanding of this material If by "this material" you mean made-up facts, yes. >use sonderkommando to push living people into poisonous gas >don't use them to shoot people in the head >inb4you wouldn't give them guns Then how do you suppose they'd get people to go inside so-obviously-lethal "showers"? They'd have to have guards enforcing that anyway, which defeats the "its mentally expensive for the soldiers" bullshit.
>moving the goalposts. I'm not even the other user, my precious codfish.
>the camp guards were usually somehow sheltered >somehow That's a nice word for when you don't have a lie to back you up. >didn't even see it in person >huge plumes of millions of burning Jews >I wonder what's happening
Henry Lopez
>Then how do you suppose they'd get people to go inside so-obviously-lethal "showers"? They'd have to have guards enforcing that anyway, which defeats the "its mentally expensive for the soldiers" bullshit. >a couple of guards forcing people inside a building is as "mentally exhausting" as shooting hundreds of unarmed women in the head daily
Really makes me think!!!!
>That's a nice word for when you don't have a lie to back you up.
Somehow as the camp guards could shelter themselves from the crimes if they wanted to. They knew what was happening, but if someone really wants to, they could deny it.
And let's face it, there is a big difference between hearing about crimes, witnessing it from afar and actually committing them
Matthew Kelly
>needing more than one fucking person to shoot a few hundred people a day wow and here I though "Nazis" were super cold blooded and efficient
>they knew what was happening Wait, so did they know what was happening or were they sheltered from it?
Logan Sanchez
>Check this out. I'm ot wasting my time wading through some dumb thread here that i probably already posted on.
it was not possible to burn thousands of bodies a day at Auschwitz.
Asher Price
You need more then 1 person to round up people scattered throw the villages. And the firing squads took turns.
>and here I though "Nazis" were super cold blooded and efficient
Believing in 9fag tier memes does not constitute a argument. The average german male, even thou he had strong anti-semitic ideas, was still a christian person. Killing unarmed people still made a dent in their psyche. Einsatzgruppen had large alcohol rations, and soldiers who refused to engage in the killings( textbook insubordination) weren't punished, or received light punishments (keep in mind that the sentence for insubordination was death by firing squad)
>Wait, so did they know what was happening or were they sheltered from it? They knew what happened. The german society at large knew (in some degree) what happened. Many simply either refused to believe or simply refused to discuss it. You can see the same happening with the refuge crisis.
It's like when you see a beggar in the street. You know he is there. You know he might starve. But you choose to not look at him and keep on walking.
>It is known from cremations carried out in 1874 that a 47-pound child could be cremated in 25 minutes, a 144-pound woman in 50 minutes and a 227-pound man in 55 minutes. William Eassie, Cremation of the Dead (London:1875),106-108; See also Scientific American , Vol. 30, May 9, 1874, p. 295 and Vol. 117, 1917, p. 22.
>In 1875 it was reported that a body could be cremated in 50 minutes. H.R.Haweis, Ashes to Ashes (London:1875), 101
>In Germany of the 1880s it was possible to cremate a body and the coffin which housed it in 60 to 75 minutes. Transactions of the Cremation Society of England (London: 1885),60
Kayden Ortiz
holocaust denial is about as niggerish as a white man can go.
Brandon Baker
>so low on oil products that tanks were made stupidly complex because they had to make synthetic rubber >priority to burn jews >Germans are that moral >meanwhile Soviets engaged in scorched earth retreat. >Soviets engaged in Gulags, mass rape, mass death >Implying Germans of superior Morality, Thus implying Germans are not bad people WHEW LAD
Jace Sullivan
>have no argument >engage in meaningless semantics and >muh Soviets
Lincoln Torres
The really funny aspect of the Holohoax is that the intended target of this fraud is God.
The fucking kikes are trying to jew God himself out of the required payment for their prophecy to come true.
Colton Clark
>refuse to write anything of substance >refuse to engage in comparison of two "evil" ideologies. >claim german soldiers would not engage in horrific morality, yet soviets would. are you claiming soviets are worse than nazis?
Lucas Baker
>missing the point this hard
I've never claimed that Germans did not engage in "immoral" acts. Far from the opposite. Germans behaved like mongols. I was just saying that making germans soldiers kill hundreds of people daily is a invitation to insubordination and a waste of human resources.
>refuse to engage in comparison of two "evil" ideologies.
I'm not autistic enough to engage in meaningless autistic comparisons of "WO IS DA MOUST EVUL!!!!! " Seriously, are you 14?
Liam Butler
>Believing in 9fag tier memes does not constitute a argument. Says the guy claiming the holocaust happened.
Brandon Parker
>getting BTFO hard >start making childlike insults
Made me smile user.
William Anderson
>year 3 >stormtards still can't win a single argument against the Portuguese and the Austrian This never gets old. These "debates" (if you can even call them that, seeing as stormtards get BTFO so hard since it's so one-sided) are what actually red pill the majority of people on Sup Forums on how retarded Holocaust Denial is.
Ryan Lewis
Its called a narrative.Both were shit, As were Brit colonies, US in native american treatment, Turkey genocide blah blah blah. What makes this holocaust special Who is demonized more? >Nazism >Stalinism Which ideology is considered worse in the western world? >unraveling starts The war was a reconquista gone wrong
Elijah Mitchell
>I'm ot wasting my time wading through some dumb thread Alright, I'm not wasting my time with you, either.
Jackson Nguyen
they're just re-hashes of the holocaust denial "debates" of the 90s, same material, only in here the denier side is a lot less informed and expresses itself in retarded Sup Forums-speak
Jeremiah Robinson
is that pic from mario 64
John Thompson
The high number and methodology of the killings. Or, if they were killings, systematic or other, as opposed to starvation, dehydration, and sickness due to lack of supplies.
Juan Cook
>What makes this holocaust special It's the largest genocide in history. It was used extensively by left-wingers and post war social-democracies to demoralize and "de-fang" the nationalists. The jews also had a huge presence in American mass media, so of course they pushed it.
Just because the Holocaust was widely used to push political goals does not mean it did not happened. This is a classical red herring
Hunter Mitchell
there is the argument I'm looking for. One to make me doubt my position. Thanks. I will have to think about history.
Wyatt Martinez
The Propaganda images they throw at you...
It really can't be proven that ANY of those people are Jews?
Of course the Jew claims they are ALL Jews?
It was WAR...A war perpetrated by Jews...
And part of the cover-up was to make the Perpetrator into the Victim, using propaganda.
Some Jews died, but not in the numbers the Jew wants you to believe.
Lucas Brown
so you do admit that it is used as propaganda to promote leftist agendas and jews are good boys who dindu nuffin? They use that event to discredit any nationalist our people first government in the western world. Why do they do this?
Camden Scott
yeah maybe some of these people are taiwanese aborigines, the jews don't want you to know this.
Logan Robinson
>so you do admit that it is used as propaganda to promote leftist agendas Propaganda is not the best term to describe it. Propaganda is associated with falseness or half-truths. But yes, Holocaust was used by left-wing to achieve political goals
Holocaust still happened thou
Elijah Barnes
Lets say it happened. And relative to other genocides, its is talked about in at least 6 gorillion times more with native american exception guilt trips. 6th grade(12 yo) read the book Maus. Is that weird that burgers are taught over multiple grades about the holocaust? literally nothing about soviet union, Turks, Japan(cept wrecking their shit), China nothing. Basically until ww1(russian revolution, stalemate etc) the story is the victors side until holocaust. It's always british history story in burgerland. HRE never talked about yet similar descendant numbers.
Levi Campbell
you write in an incoherent and retarded manner, couldn't understand a thing
