Are there any former Muslims here or EXMuslims? If so, why?
>>age
>gender
>race
>Nationality
>How much of a Muslim were you?
>How long were you a Muslim
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
>What are you now?
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
Previous threads
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archive.4plebs.org
Other urls found in this thread:
misconceptions-about-islam.com
youtu.be
misconceptions-about-islam.com
archive.4plebs.org
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archive.4plebs.org
twitter.com
bump
bump for Jihad
...
>>age
23
>gender
non-binary
>race
human
>Nationality
German, but moved to US
>How much of a Muslim were you?
3/10
>How long were you a Muslim
6 years after I did research by googling why "Islam is false."
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
To violent, intolerant, etc.
>What are you now?
Atheist/ anti-theist
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
They despise my superior intelligence
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
Ban religion, implement state atheism
>23
>M
>Persian
>Flag
>Conservative but not islamist
>16 yrs
>
>Quranist
>They don't know
>Just give them ridiculous hadiths and ask them to explain them
...
Thank you for your answer. You didn't answer 7 and what is a Quranist?
bump
A quranist is someone who rejects the hadith.
>Hadith (7)
How do regular Muslims react to Quranist?
Why did you reject the Hadiths?
>How do regular Muslims react to Quranist?
They don't like to talk about quranism because they've been brought up on hadiths their whole life, they don't want to stop believing in them.
I reject hadiths because they were written 200 years after the prophet, which doesn't make sense as to why I should follow them. And the quran clearly says that it is enough, no other book is needed.
>age
20
>gender
Male
>race
Syria
>Nationality
Canadian
>How much of a Muslim were you?
Born and raised, though nothing super extreme.
>How long were you a Muslim
Until I was 16
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
Internet, talking to another ex-muslim girl at my school. Basically not wanting to be associated with it.
>What are you now?
Nothing/Athiest.
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
Family was upset, mom especially, though people were generally ok about it. Some friends outright stopped talking to me.
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
Find people outside, or preferably within your family, who can support you.
Please leave your names and addresses so I may send you traditional Islamic parting gifts.
>19
>Male
>Algerian
>American
>Born one and raised by religious grandparents for a time. I did a lot of embarrasing things when I was younger because I was a blind believer.
>14 years
>European/Western Civilization as well as Far Eastern Civilizations are far superior to any Muslim civilizations and the only thing we do is circlejerk about the glory days as our countries fall apart. The Arab Spring and the rise if ISIS turned my antipathy towars Islam into hate.
>I don't follow any religion but do believe in a higher power. I'm considering Christian Orthodoxy.
>I pretend I'm still Muslim around people I don't trust because if my family found out, I'd be disowned and unpersoned. Also I love my grandparents and don't want to break their hearts.
>Honestly, the only thing I have to say is that they have to leave the Islam circlejerk and break the conditioning themselves. It isn't something that can be forced. If the constant violence and backwardness of the majority of the Muslim world, the massive amount of violent terrorist groups, appaling behavior of Muslim so called refugees and constant excuse making by so called moderate Muslims don't disgust you enough to leave, nothing will.
Btw, strong secular dictators such as Assad, Sadam and Gaddafi are MENA's only way forward. The Arab man is too dumb of a beast to handle his own destiny. Today they stick to Islam as their guiding light, but it must be thrown away and replaced with secular nationalism.
t. Berber
20
Male
Syrian
Australian
Average secular muslim
still a muslim
I realised Islam is for me because thats the only thing preventing my people from turning into outright degenerates
Still muslim
My family is cosy and happy
Stay strong
Quranist: awesome! Ditto!
The Quran alone is the ultimate redpill. All the revisionist stuff about Mecca being a later creation strengthens my faith in this book.
The Islamic crap about the Quran being written down post Muhammad destroyed by the Birmingham Quran and supports the Quranic version of it being written down and ordered by Muhammad (with reservations from his own community).
The Treaty of Medina is a key document in the historicity of Muhammad.
When I realised the hadith were crap, I thought this was the most obvious thing ever, but the muslims are refractory and this is predicted in the quran (Muhammad's lament on the day of judgement).
I love that even by fluke the muslims can't get ANY quranic practices correct (eg fasting until sunset versus night as per Quran). Their shahadah is even ridiculed in the Quran!
I enjoy the fallacies of the anti quran and Muhammad crowd too; they believe only in the hadith that portray Muhammad badly! This website:
misconceptions-about-islam.com
>They don't like to talk about quranism because they've been brought up on hadiths their whole life, they don't want to stop believing in them.
Interesting, so understanding the Quran is meaningless then to get to know them? Is the Hadiths the center of the Muslim mind and not the Quran then?
Reminds me of Catholics and Orthoxy who treat the Bible like a sacred paper weight and only rely on traditions of men in the centuries after the last book of the Bible was written.
no they should all just fuck off back home
The same way any dogma driven organisation reacts to those who stop believing in dogma (appeal to authority, appeal to a common belief etc.).
which is why these 3 geezers are promptly arrested for murder
>misconceptions-about-islam.com
Pic related.
You must think we're stupid or something.
Exactly. The should fuck off home and in their home, there should be a strong but benevolent secular dictator in charge to keep them in order.
They were arrested? Can you link me to that?
To them 'understanding the quran' really means understanding it as per the hadith i.e. not understanding the quran. This leads them to assume quranic religious practices are as defined by the hadith and because they can't find these definitions in the quran, the quran can't be fully detailed.
The quran to them is a book of magical incantations that they feel needs to be chanted to go to heaven.
Their religion is driven by meaningless rituals which is why they're so stupid religiously.
The 5 prayers, the hajj, supplications, ablution, and even the most basic islamic phrase, the shahadah, come from the hadith, they exist no where in the Quran. These are what Muslims practice everyday, most have never given thought to Quranism, if they actually read the Quran they'd see what they're actually supposed to follow, there wouldn't be so many sects and confusion.
>Reminds me of Catholics and Orthoxy who treat the Bible like a sacred paper weight and only rely on traditions of men in the centuries after the last book of the Bible was written
This exactly
How many Hadiths are there? Is there a list of names?
> the only thing preventing my people from turning into outright degenerates
I have some bad news for you
Yes, most likely you are stupid.
I had a atheist phase and returned to Islam, so I'll answer
>age
28
>gender
male
>race
arab master race
>Nationality
Palestinian
>How much of a Muslim were you?
I used to be very devout, then went secular
>How long were you a Muslim
20 years
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
There wasn't anything wrong with Islam, I just stopped believing in God
>What are you now?
Shia Muslim
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
I wasn't edgy enough to tell people I left Islam, mainly because I'm not an attention whore like all ex-Muslims
>>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
I was a better person when I was Muslim, stay in the religion. Also, don't leave Islam because you hate being brown, Muhammad was white.
There are 17 hadith books, but only 7 of them are considered to be true amongst Muslim scholars.
>Is there a list of names
Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidi, Abu dawud to name a few
There's 4100 hadith that are being circulated, mostly from Muslim and Bukhari
sarcasm my friend
if there were truly so many moderates, and they were in power, then they would arrest the tiny few extremists like those pictured, for murder.
but there are no moderate muslims...
>thatsthejoke.jpg
geez
Islam is NOT in the quran...
youtu.be
nobody gives a fuck about the "true" Islam
what matters is what people do
and Muslims do bad things
>age
20
>gender
Male
>race
Semitic palestinian
>Nationality
Jordanian
>How much of a Muslim were you?
Born and raised as a Muslim
>How long were you a Muslim
Still a Muslim and I will forever will be
>What are you now?
Secular muslim
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
Good
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
I would try and convince them yo be more secular and try makr them more open minded
>The Quran alone is the ultimate redpill
>British
>and Muslims do bad things
What do you mean? We aren't doing anything
Ayyy Palestinian bro
How's it going?
To be fair. Muslims are shit because they are genetically subhuman and literally mentally retarded on average, not really due to their religion (even though the religion easily amplifies the negative effect of their subhuman animal-tier IQ).
chillen u?
Actually intelligent people do, hence all the academic stuff on revisionism. And I get many people here are low grades (ie your comment).
But true Islam is much of the foul stuff you believe and was a post quranic creation canonised in the first 200 years after Muhammad.
The first qiblas pointed to Petra not Mecca is another redpill issue supported by the Quran.
That Judaism plus a messiah # Christianity is a redpill for Christians about the intellectual dishonesty of their religion. And don't get me wrong: I respect and want more conservative Christianity here. The church of England pisses me off through confusing atheistic values with theistic religious ones.
Pretty good
Though it's rare to see shia Palestinians
Nobody gives a shit about your Jewish religion Farooq.
Posts a picture of a hadith follower.
I've noticed there's an intellectual synergy between ardent muslims and ardent anti quran/muhammad types.
Survey after survey shows their repulsive 5th column views
>Shia "seculars" meetup.
Sunni only true islam. Will never give up on my faith.
Hmm...figures
Thank you all for your answers. You will not go unnoticed.
>Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most sure hand-hold, that never breaks. And God is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]
So if a person can choose to remain an unbeliever why pic related? Why do you have to fight unbelievers? Is this abrogated?
Lurk a lot and rarely post, but I have to say this is one of the better threads on Sup Forums in recent memory. Whether you've left the faith or are still adherent, I appreciate your honesty. This board needs more honest and open communication instead of the endless shitflinging we usually swallow.
>>age
Early twenties
>gender
Male
>race
West Asian I guess?
>Nationality
Afghan Canadian
>How much of a Muslim were you?
8/10 apologist, thought Islam was the most logical belief system (mislead as to its scientific miracles, certain ontological arguments etc)
>How long were you a Muslim
Until 17
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
I was logically driven instead of faith driven, so when the logical foundations of my belief system crumbled I made the gradual transition to Deism and then Agnostic Theism and then Agnostic Atheism.
>What are you now?
Atheist (agnostic of course)
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
Family is cool with it, have to keep my power level down for relatives though. I don't go out of my way to show I'm religious but I participate in prayer in certain situations and participate in fasting sometimes etc to not cause a scene and alienate people.
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
It's hard. You really can't tell them much, it depends on what they place the foundations of their belief system on. I was lucky enough to base mine on reason and rationality, but others are fine with faith alone. I'm trying to figure this out myself.
27
Male
Arab
Iraqi
Conservative but not extremist
No logical reason for a God or any religions being true
Atheist
Haven't told them
Encourage secularism and hope that America leaves the middle east alone since they're a big cause in the raise of radical Islam
I switched to Shia from Sunni, because the Shiites are politically on my side
Wtf I'm not kaffer
what changed in your lifestyle after you switched?
misconceptions-about-islam.com
The quran advocates only defensive wars, and to seek peace, not kill civilians etc.
Your quotes are out of context.
Nothing really, I need to read up on how Shiites differ from Sunnis so I can practice my faith like a real Shiite. I do save pictures of Iman Ali though.
is the cladding on this thread flammable?
Just asking. No particular plans. Just minding my own business... whistling and walking by.
Spooooooooky
Read the previous ones. They were really good too.
archive.4plebs.org
archive.4plebs.org
Take 8:12
8:7 And God promises you that one of the two parties will be defeated by you; and you wish that the one least armed be the one. But God wishes that the truth be manifest with His words, and that He eliminates the remnant of the rejecters.
8:8 So that the truth will be manifest, and the falsehood will be finished; even if the criminals hate it.
8:9 You called on help from your Lord and He answered you: "I will provide you with one thousand angels as defenders."
8:10 And God did not do this except to give you good news, and that your hearts may be assured by it. And victory is only from God; for God is Noble, Wise.
8:11 Sleep overcame you to give you tranquility from Him; and He sent down to you water from the sky to purify you with it and cause the affliction of the devil to leave you; and so that He may strengthen your hearts and set firm your feet.
8:12 Your Lord inspired to the angels: "I am with you so keep firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have rejected; so strike above the necks, and strike from them every one standing."
8:13 That is because they have transgressed against God and His messenger.
This refers to a specific incident that Muhammad was involved in. As per the Quranic guidelines it would have been a defensive war. It is not a general command to kill everyone.
>so I can practise my faith like a real shiite
Threads like these are usually proxy-chaims trying to persuade muslims to renounce their faith and to weaponize shia "muslims" against real sunni muslims.
>ex muslims in thread
>100% likely to be Chaim
>WE DINDU
niggers
Religion of peace.
Because the entire muslim world is on Sup Forums....
Smell something burning..?
Just stay put.
no u
What's wrong with being Shia? You sound like a filthy Wahhabi/Salafi
We're literally not doing anything wrong
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
The ideology is based on the enlightenment of man who reached it by murdering 800 people.
>BLM Flag
>Islam "preventing" degeneracy
Roleplayer spotted
You do realize that he tried pacifism against his oppressors, until he had no choice but to destroy them?
>pacifism
>against an area he invaded
yea no.
>9:29 Fight [q-t-l] those among the people of the Book [Christians] who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden and do not profess the true religion, till they pay the poll-tax out of hand and submissively. (Fakhry)
> 5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
>9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
These are but a fraction. It's pretty obvious this is not about self-defense but of total annihilation of those to choose to remain disbelieving.
>not kill civilians etc
So those 6 to 900 Jews killed, women and children enslaved didn't count as civilians? What about the poets Muhammed assasinated because they made fun of him? You must think we are that ignorant and stupid.
Fucking Westerners wants us to be cucked as them
>>age
27
>gender
m
>race
dad arab, mom white, I can pass for white or maybe (((white)))
>Nationality
USA. This was in the south, but in a biggish city, FWIW.
>How much of a Muslim were you?
not very devout. we fasted during ramadan. Friday prayers at most.
>How long were you a Muslim
until i was 11-12ish
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
I stopped being religious. science rationalism blah blah blah
>What are you now?
materialist since then
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
it wasn't a big deal. I don't remember how I got out of going to the mosque, but by the time I was in high school I just didn't fast and nobody made an issue of it. I never discussed it with my parents or anyone, really. I'm not particularly close to my family and never had much involvement with the community so it's nbd.
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
don't really have advice to offer. I was the best-case of a fairly-westernized flavor of islam to begin with, so I didn't experience any of the challenges that most of my fellow apostates have to contend with.
>That Judaism plus a messiah # Christianity is a redpill for Christians about the intellectual dishonesty of their religion.
What? Can you elaborate?
>age
18
>gender
male
>nationality
egyptian kang
>how much of a muslim were you?
used to be a secular muslim
>how long were you a muslim
up until age 15
>what made you realize islam is not true?
two things:
-my dad raised me to be skeptical even though he's a muslim himself
-moral dillema's and scientific inconsistencies
>what are you now
agnostic. I wish I could believe in something though. Unfortunately Islam is so deeply ingrained into egyptian culture that no longer believing it means I feel no connection to most of my culture or people anymore. That is on top of the fact that since we are a third world country culture is no longer given any attention. everyone just follows trends blindly, either from the west or outdated local traditions bastardized beyond being fixed.
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
no one from my family knows. if they knew they wouldn't hurt me but they would be very disappointed and I don't want to hurt them like that. I have a few friends like me and we get along.
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
a return to traditional national culture and a better education regarding Islam. Getting rid of Islam won't happen too soon. Believe it or not Islam isn't as bad as ISIS make it out to be. It's still backwards but I believe that it can be taught in a civil manner.
>hetero-male
>South Asian
>Indian
>2/10. I believed in god but didn't think it was a interventionist deity that listened to my prayers. Didn't think people have ghosts living inside them i.e. soul.
>Still I was about 17.
>I didn't like the certainty in religion. A lot of what's present in holy texts goes against how we know the world works.
>I'm atheist\agnostic. I lean right of centre on economic issues.
>Since I'm an Indian living in India, people are okay with it. My family gets uncomfortable sometimes but I have the facts and reality on my side.
>Muslims especially young ones feel threatened when countered by facts. Best you can do is explain to them that there are different ways to look at the world, that having doubts is okay, that there are a lot different faiths in the world that think they're the one true faith, that within Islam itself there are a lot contradicting flavours.
Almost all muslims in this fucking thread live in a western country. There are at least 1 billion goatfuckers, but those living in their own country don't have access to internet. Islam really produces successful societies
they're taught be wimps like the Christian version of the prophet Jesus
Who cares? The only reason you think there's anything wrong with that is because of Marxist propaganda being hammered into your head from day 1.
Killing is necessary, it always has been and always will be. The reason the west is so fucked beyond repair now is because we stopped killing our enemies.
But what if they attempt to impregnate me once they get a sexual emergency?
>-moral dillema's and scientific inconsistencies
Explain
>Muslims especially young ones feel threatened when countered by facts
Like what?
>assuming Sup Forums demographics are an accurate respresentation
there's far more in the middle east than you think.
>20
>female
>i have no idea whiteys assume im white always even tough both my parents are turkish
>turkish
>was very devout at 17 til 19
>19 yrs
>the scientific errors and slavery thing. Alcohol gets banned but slavery doesnt? Give me a break. Also sharia is retarded
>deist
>they dont know so i'm still treated the same
>make them read the qur'an. None of them have read a fucking translation EVER.
I'm sorry my coming is not well formatted. I don't often post on Sup Forums. I only lurk around here looking for comments from Indian dudes that are unintentionally, extremely funny.
Good. Those wastes of space are the cancer killing Britain. Is this supposed to be threatening?
>Fight those who believe not in God
is an adjective, describing the tribes that were persecuting the prophet Muhammad and his followers, it does not refer to all non-Muslims
-32
-male
-I don't really see myself in terms of race anymore. See flag
-Also see flag
-Eh I was only moderate before I decided to become an apostate.
-About 18 years, counting from when I was born.
-Learning about how Hadiths are mostly made-up hearsay bullshit and how Quran is also a made-up bullshit as well filled with contradictions and fallacies
-An atheist in the purest, literal sense, namely a person who doesn't have a religion. No, I'm not a person who doesn't believe in the existence of God so all you 'proof of existence of god' post baiters can fuck off.
-Like most ex-muslims here I don't reveal my faith or lack thereof. My belief is my own fucking business.
-You can't. You either grow up smart or not at all. You have to be a certain breed of individual (nonconformist ,rational, introverted, precoccious) to be willing to see religion as the fake shit as it is.
Jizya isn't a non believer tax, it means reparations. It's beyond this thread to explain.
Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not aggressors. [2:190]
This is the context of fighting. It's more complex than taking isolated quoted out of context.
I'm no more of a fan of the (((Jews))) than you are. I'm no more of a fan of cultural Marxism than you are. I hate degeneracy. However, the answer to degeneracy is knowledge, reason, logic, and education. Not Islam.
The way to fighting degeneracy is through OPEN CRITICISM of degeneracy. Political correction is the attempt to silence dissidence and silence criticism of degeneracy. The labels of racism, phobias, anti-semitism was all invented by (((them))) to threaten critics with words and social stigma for pointing out the flaws. However, this doesn't work in America and some Western Countries: Why?
Because of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Though, and Freedom in general.
I don't want to kill Muslims. What I want to do is CRITICIZE and UNDERSTAND Muslims. Freedom gives me THE RIGHT to question you and everything you believe just as much you YOU have the right to do that to me.
My problem with Islam and some Muslims is that they want to kill me for criticizing them in a constructive way. Not in a disrespectful way. The problem with some Muslims is that they interpret questioning Islam as degeneracy as well. That asking questions is also forbidden.
>-moral dillema's and scientific inconsistencies
despite being conservative when it comes to gender roles myself I still think Islam treats women like too much of second class citizens. Inheritance rights and court testimony laws specifically.
I am opposed to capital punishment in Islam. I only the support the death penalty on murderer's/serial killers/other fucked up criminals. Things like adultery don't deserve death. Drinking alchohol doesn't deserve being flogged.
Islam tends to demonize those who don't believe, treating them as if they are people who know the truth but choose to reject it. It's does not preach unjustified violence against them like some people assume though.
flying horses don't exist
a solar eclipse is not a sign of god's anger like muslims believe
>Islam treats women like too much of second class citizens.
look at the degeneracy of Western women, women need to be restrained
Jizya literally means penalty. It is a protection tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic regimes, confirming their legal status.
>"...to spare the blood (of the Zimmis), to be a symbol of humiliation of the infidels and as an insult and punishment to them, and as the Shafi`ites indicate, the Jizya is offered in exchange for residing in an Islamic country." Thus Ibn Qayyim adds, "Since the entire religion belongs to God, it aims at humiliating ungodliness and its followers, and insulting them. Imposing the Jizya on the followers of ungodliness and oppressing them is required by God's religion. The Qur'anic text hints at this meaning when it says: `until they give the tribute by force with humiliation.' (Qur'an 9:29). What contradicts this is leaving the infidels to enjoy their might and practice their religion as they wish so that they would have power and authority." - Sheik Najih Ibrahim Ibn Abdulla quoting Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya
>age
23
>gender
m
>Nationality
flag
>How much of a Muslim were you?
went to islamic elementary school and "islamic" highschool. parents are extremely religious
>How long were you a Muslim
until 17 yo
>Why made you realize Islam was not for you or not true?
being forced to go to mosque every friday and parents kept asking me "did you pray yet" everyday made me sick. also starting to realize how fucked the ideology is when my islamic teacher in highschool tried to convince everyone in my class that dinosaurs didn't exist because it's not written in the qur'an
>What are you now?
atheist
>How are you treated by friends, family, community?
my friends are pretty indifferent about it, kinda tried to convince them about how islam is fucked up but didn't work out.
my mom gonna cry everyday if i tell her i'm not a muslim anymore so i keep quite about it in my family
>Any advice on how to help Muslims come out of the stone age or on what to tell them?
None. I tried telling my friends about how fucked the qur'an is ( stoning to death for adultery, etc) but they just didn't listen or avoiding the conversation.
Muslims pay their tax, and dhimmis get their own tax as well, I don't know why the Islamophobe complains about it, it's not it's an extra tax
It's natural to feel threatened when your way of life is questioned isn't it.
Also Muslims in India have a minority complex.
>Islam treats women like too much of second class citizens
I agree on that but it's not Islam's fault though it's cultural
>Things like adultery don't deserve death
the punishment for adultery was getting lashed 80 times
not death
>Drinking alchohol doesn't deserve being flogged
true and people should freely drink alcohol
but desu most Arab countries legalized drinking alcohol
you just need to keep it in bars and home and not public
>the punishment for adultery was getting lashed 80 times
>not death
If you're married, you get lashes AND stoned to death for adultery.
>look at the degeneracy of Western women,
Pic related is the problem. Restraining women is not the answer. Look at the women in the US pre1960's when a bathing suit showing the ankles was considered degenerate by women back then. Back then, smoking was considered unlady-like. This is because of the Jews, not women. Look at blacks pre1960's. Very well-mannered, family oriented, morally centered. All because of (((them))).
Look at countries Japan, China, South Korea, Myanmar, Butan, and others where Jewish Bolshevism hasn't touched yet. The women are little to no degeneracy all without Islam and Christianity.
lol
good thing my family are secular Muslims
My family believes God crated us through evolution
wait so it that about cheating
I have a herd time sympathise with people who cheat on their Wife or Husband