When did you start appreciating paneling?
When did you start appreciating paneling?
My second time reading through JJBA. Maybe it was because I had been reading some particularly shitty series prior.
I remember trying to read some old-ass shoujo manga many years ago. The paneling was a mess, barely any backgrounds and the focus was only on faces and bodies, sparkles and butterflies fucking everywhere. Around then, I guess.
I took it for granted, it wasn't until Gook & Chinese shit started to become popular that that I re-appreciated it when done right.
Never, done right you don't even notice, done poorly and it becomes a chore to read.
you fucker, you appreciate it because you know it ruins everything if done wrong
What do her feet look like OP?
this chapter of takemitsu zamurai
When I read a western comic and was horrified by the sad attempt at paneling (just uniformly laid out squares and rectangles). Really makes you appreciate the variety and effort in manga art.
the paneling of this thing really took my breath away, the author managed to tell me a story that couldve spanded volumes in a few pages
the author managed to tell me a story that couldve spanded volumes in a few pages
Whoa so he managed to not drag out and stretch a simple story, what a genius.
But he was doing it intentionally.
Ultra Heaven and Homunculus
I was giving the pages as an example of good paneling. The thin vertical panel of the guy standing up and turning around really stuck out to me as perfectly framing the scene.
What is a facility home?
no great paneling, managed to distract me from the lewd.
Appreciating good art is nice every now and then
Calvin & Hobbes, probably in 1990. Bill Waterson is a genius, its too bad that he had to wrestle his publisher so hard for every creative execution of paneling we got.
Sure its not manga, but Calvin and Hobbes is always relevant.
Always? artfags are supposed to study this kind of shit, composition is a bitch.
I'm not saying it isn't good paneling just that saying the story "could have taken volumes" is so wild an exaggeration I'm not sure exaggeration is enough to describe it.
I was reading a manga normally one time when I started gradually feeling irritated by how confusing the panel lay-out was.
Then I read a chapter of TLR and I was like "Damn, that's how shit is supposed to be" and from then on I just payed attention to it.
That has nothing to do with paneling and not only that but the author spoonfed everything in a few sentences which is just lazy writing. If you'd know good paneling you'd recognize that this is in fact garbage.
It's porn, so backstory isn't very important.
Though it's getting published as not porn, so your complaints would be relevant then.
Read American comic.
It's like trying to read an excel spreadsheet.
They are like 50 years behind Japan.
Well, that's literally from 53 years ago.
Ditko's Spiderman has good paneling, he knew what paneling could be.
More recent, Grayson has some really neat pages, and the short Klarion run a few years ago had AMAZING art.
Its the publishers and the formatting rules that aborted any hope good paneling for decades, those rules finally relaxed, but you still see incompetents copying the old style because they don't know any better. The old artists knew better, they just had to fight tooth and nail with publishers to use anything but the most basic layout.
God, it's not even just the panelling. The shot composition is so bland and uninspired. I can't say I've read much capeshit but from more recent stuff I've glanced at, it doesn't look like it's improved much. Ugly colouring and uncreative layouts everywhere.
I don't, though I should. I speedread too often. I loved the paneling in Phoenix though.
Then make your own comic and show us faggette
It's like they just care about the dialog without any concern for the visuals.
Never. I am blind to this kind of things.
Nigga that's well drawn, and I like the warm pallet colors.
Most American comics suck dick. There's a few really good authors, though.
Well draw =/= good reading flow
good reading flow
What manga/light novel/etc. would Sup Forums like to see drawn in a comic artist artstyle
Any old cake fest
If each panel was judged individually it might be nice art, but this is a comic and technical skills alone don't make it easy on the eyes. It's flat and crowded looking with no sense of movement.
I want to see Alex Ross draw All Might
some of them are really good... every once in a while. Manpaul is a fucking monster, for example.
around the time I first read some of FUMI Fumiko's stuff.
/r/ing that /co/ screencap of evil flash being the cause of everything bad.
What happened to the SFW version of that manga?
The eyes are attracted to certain angles, to faces, to certain contrasts and patterns.
Even if something has good anatomy and colors it doesn't means that the whole page flows well, because paneling also determines time flow.
Example from the same page. I'm reading the fourth panel and then I jump to the one bellow. I'm reading from left to right but the events on this panel are easier to understand from right to left so I get confused. I see the 3 first before 2, then I gotta go to 4 to see what the guy is doing and then to 5-6 to see the reaction of the fat guy. I had to zig zag too much for such a simple scene. Absolutely no flow.
A panel is not just a photograph but more like a timeline. The order of the balloons determines the timing and the length of the actions of the characters.
When I read Dresden Codak and it was a completely unreadable clusterfuck.
Chapter 1 came out and we got shitty watermarked gook scans. At least some of it got translated
IT WAS ME BARRY, I SHIT YOUR PANTS
I'm guessing is
Left to right
Up to bottom
It's not definitive. Steranko designed the page to be read from any direction.
I love Flash comics.
I've always liked the panelling in Ah My Goddess. It's just clean, simple, and unobtrusive.
There's plenty of fucking awful panelinsts in manga, I don't know why you idiots are treating it as a comics thing by picking examples out of fucking garbage capeshit.
Hahaha holy shit. I need to read some flash comics.
I guess we got derailed.
Pic related is one of my favorites.
Last western one for me
It's fine, Vonnie.
You're not here to haggle yo- er, Fluke skul[l]duggery won't keep me from getting my science license. I've got moxy.
Kim, I don't think you quite understand how this works.
And if the DOI deems you qualified, you'll- er, I wonder if I'll get a lab in a tower. I like towers.
This is a crime.
firing the ENTIRE BULLET
who let this man have Cave Johnson's gun?
I think Nihei can do a pretty great job of shot/panel composition. The little details all over the place are really charming.
Maybe it's some kind of railgun that he loaded with bullets, and the electricity didn't set off the primer or powder?
This author's scenes really seem to come to life with the way characters will burst out of the panel.
This was the first thing I ever read that really felt like it justified the infinite canvas to me.
As edgy as it is, TG can get creative sometimes.
Did the translations for this ever finish?
If not, can we get some frog anons to translate this?
Closest we're ever gonna get that level of assholery is Dio and he's nowhere near as powerful.
putting the emphasis/dragging out certain scenes is huge in comedy manga too
I don't know why I picked Countdown to Final Crisis for an example.
Mob Psycho has some decent panelling in some chapters; can't give any examples right now , though.
Simple paneling is best
One is really great at panelling. He knows how to make a joke land.
I haven't read Knights of Cydonia but Blame is some of the messiest fucking shit I've ever read.
Read "Prequel", that shitty mspaint comic about the cat thing from oblivion.
The shit the guy does with the "paneling" sometimes is pretty mindblowing.
When I started reading HxH.
Gunsmith Cats vol.1.
This sequence in particular.
You're already better than 90% of Marvel's artists
Can't speak of paneling without Osamu Tezuka
This scan is read left to right btw
Shintaro Kago, actually. Some of the stuff he did with "Labyrinth" and other similar works is fucking mindblowing.
I used to read it, actually, but dropped it at some point out of forgetfulness. I'll pick it up again someday, Kazerad knows what he's doing for sure.
It's just kind of amazing how consistent he was. So much work, so much good.
HxH made me really think about it too, because after hearing non stop that it has shit art, Togashi can't draw etc I was impressed when I actually read it. And I was mad that Sup Forums's shit opinions kept me from it for so long, the guy knows how to compose a page even when he's scribbling.
This. Shoujo mangaka have the most god awful page layouts ever.
Aren't most shoujo mangaka women?
I'd say female mangaka had trash paneling, but most of the ones doing material for seinen and shounen audiences are fine.
Horikoshi have some nice paneling.
Of all the things in manga that could be affected by gender, panelling isn't one of them. It's trend driven more than anything, for shoujo at least.
so completely misunderstanding shoujo
Like holy shit.
*nice use of paneling
I just do.
Not enough to usually praise it, though enough to notice when it's bad or basic. Hitomi-sensei by Shake-O is really good with its paneling and general mangacraft.
Someone post Kaze Ki.
It's amazing to me that (to my knowledge) America pretty much popularized the comicbook format, but at the same time most comicbooks are fucking TRASH in terms of presentation.
Maybe it's because they have to worry about coloring everything. No, that doesn't make sense or excuse it. It's just bad.
Coloring is more a tradition than anything.
That reminds me, are two-page spreads much of/at all a thing with western comics? I never see any.
Stain did nothing wrong.
I think there was a four page spread in this one recent Green Lantern comic book.
Steranko did the first four page spread back on white Nick Fury
You're correct, the US popularized comic books with anthologies like Fun Comics, although british newspapers were the first to really sell the idea of comics. I'd argue that it's no better or worse, percentage wise, than anywhere else, but that there are distinctly fewer comics competitors in the states than in Japan.
It's one of the worst things about it, god forbid they use a little white space
No white spaces, just flat colored backgrounds like the good ol days.
Look, not everyone in that bunch is bad, but you've surely experienced that feeling of reading a shoujo manga where the paneling is so bizarre that you need to read the same page twice, wondering if it suddenly changed reading order.
I've experienced that with manga that wasn't shoujo as well. It's not any more prevalent there, but people feel like it is because Shoujo has a different set of tools that the Year 24's revolutionized.
Is it so hard to just make a basic page look interesting for most comic artists? Or maybe most just don't give a shit because it's just a job.
Stuff like the flow of the page, what's focused on, panel sizes -- shit, man.
I guess it just perplexes me, but to be fair the manga industry is MUCH larger/more diverse than the comic book industry. Maybe because of how that industry works, so many artists could foster interesting presentation techniques.
that looks a whole fucking lot better
but to be fair the manga industry is MUCH larger/more diverse than the comic book industry
The problem is this, plus the nepotism inherent in an oligarchy
When I realized that horrible paneling actually makes things impossible to read.
It's like they just care about the dialog without any concern for the visuals.
There was a period of about two months in high school where I thought this guy was good.
I'm sure they're capable, but messing with the status quo and going against trends/traditions/expectations isn't always easy. Manga just seems to allow for more variety and creativity, it's cheaper and sells better so they've got wiggle room.
Prolly cause there's many more good artists in manga than there are in comics.
Which is a natural conclusion because there are simply MORE artists, period, in manga than there are in comics.
I was going to make a Nisioisin joke but that'd be a bit too much of an insult to him, I think.
Well even when you go into independent stuff unfettered by publishing houses it's not much better overall.
It's some real horrfying shit.
Think it was a year or two in after I found online manga and then tried out some /co/ stuff. The action looked really dull compared to action manga then I noticed the difference in presentation. I was going to post some Biscuit Hammer but Mizukami's most standout panels were much later into Sengoku Youko and Spirit Circle. Also,
Kubo's pretty damn good at it too. It's not as noticeable if you're reading on a computer as opposed to a physical book.
He's more using the formless power of the internet to his advantage. Most of his stuff is basic adventure format.
That said, when he gets interesting, he gets REALLY interesting.
Yeah. Too bad there aren't any magazines in the west that serialize comics.
love this guy
formless power of the internet
This is basically the definition of the infinite canvas, yeah?
Female mangakas only have decent paneling when make manga version of LNs or Animes.
There are a handful, but no one seems to be trying to imitate the WSJ style cheap and plentiful concept.
You're just wrong.
The standard "infinite canvas" is still strictly within a certain space and dimensions. Kazerad does stuff that only works because of programming where the confines of the "comic" space are literally broken. Few creators actually do that kind of thing.
I hope you aren't talking newspapers, plus wasn't getting your story published in Playboy and Penthouse like a good way to get readers back then?
Jiro Matsumoto can do some pretty neat things.
I'm talking about stuff like 2000 AD
It just wouldn't work. Our culture dictates that comics are strictly for nerds. They're popular as fuck, make for blockbusting movies, but only nerds read comics.
It's not like Japan where anyone reads manga.
Loved the sequencing in this part.
What the fuck am I looking at
I can't fucking read it for some reason
This is only, really, a recent development, and our comic culture began as anthologies, too. We drifted away mostly thanks to the Comics Authority wreaking havoc on what publishers were willing to sell.
try reading it left to right.
I'm more unnerved that I understood this to be Chitanda than I am just looking at it.
I am curious about this. I always thought it was pure nerd crap except for perhaps a period in the 80s where the cartoons were good enough and the comics good enough and the culture weird enough that most 80s children still have an actual fondness for comics.
Everybody are crazy with Batman-Superman and Civil Wars, when all those movies are adaptations of 25-years-old comic books
Civil War was done ten years ago. You're about right with BvS's source material though.
Not even close. Comics started out as just that, comic shorts in large anthologies. This gained some traction and people started testing out other genres. Superheroes popped up around this time, and were popular, but only really dominated for a bit during WWII. Action Adventure, Horror, Romance, and other genres were all extremely popular, and it was the Horror, especially, that caused problems. Eventually, old-timey soccer moms got worried about how grotesque some of these comics were and complained. A book was written about the effects, and presented to congress. The research was well-intentioned garbage, but the comics companies, afraid of being regulated by the government, said they'd put their own standards into place. They created the Comics Code Authority, which implemented self-censorship. This killed off pretty much everything even remotely violent, leaving behind only the genres best capable of adapting. As it turned out, this was superheroes, who turned into silver age comics and took over the medium.
I may just be a curmudgeonly hipster asshole, but I just completely can't understand the appeal of this "cinematic universe" thing.
I should probably actually watch one of the movies before casting judgment, but even trailers look full of shit that looks terrible to me.
Probably the only thing that ever caught my eye was Guardians of the Galaxy. That looked fun. Everything else just looks like a bunch of stuff I hate about cape comics.
I know that was a frog but common
Gantz and the whole "build up to fuckhuge panel with everything on it"
Is the appeal of a crossover. Nothing more than that really. The quality of the movies are independent of the character universes, you can just watch anyone and enjoy it without problem.
Oh my fucking god, that's fucking awful. No wonder the creativity of comics are in such dire straights. I'm stunned some of the more controversial and famous comics actually came into existence at all in a state like this.
I guess the standards changed enough over time that you could get stuff like, what, Sandman? I hear that's fucked up.
Crossovers are fun, but you said it yourself. You don't like capeshit.
Or anything written by Garth Ennis.
Basically what happened was the CCA's guidelines eventually became obviously stupid. The US, asked the big two to make some anti-drug comics, for example, and they wouldn't do it because they couldn't stamp anything with mention of drugs on it with the CCA stamp. Stan Lee is usually credited with being the guy to really say, Fuck it, and just start publishing comics without CCA approval.
posting a frog and a feels man on a post about Western comics/movies
Of all the things you could blame the mods for deleting unnecessarily, that isn't one of them.
What about BD?
das it mane
I am fine with a special and rare crossover, or an insane level crossover like Smash Bros was (it's gotten seriously out of hand with 4), but the way capeshit goes about crossovers has always seemed like something I could only deem as masturbatory. Too much. It's too much.
I was probably interested in Guardians because even though it's based on something it was something I hadn't heard of and it was standalone. Was. I know it's just another part.
Too bad it seems like at this point what damage has been done is irreversible.
Well, I say too bad, but I bet I'd always prefer manga. Very few comics I've actually read and liked in my time.
This looks really good.
It fits with the art style.
As long as you can tell a good story without letting the fanservice take over, I'm okay with that. The problem is that very few comic book events can manage that and that's where you get that masturbatory feeling from.
But that was strictly an American thing though.
It's really not, especially as we move into the digital age. One of the biggest things holding comics back is the comic book store, which encourage a small incestuous base of readers. It's the same thing you see with moe anime, where the otaku support it almost singlehandedly and lower the quality. Comics will be around forever as a medium, and webcomics are already starting to push people more towards interesting work. Stand Still Stay Silent is a good example.
my favorite page
fucking size limit
Yeah, mine was cut down from the original size to include the best part.
Can you not subscribe to comic books?
Mostly, they're just too expensive. An issue of WSJ is usually cheaper than one American comic book and has 10-15 times as much content. The model has to change.
And nobody seems to care about digital distribution and actually paying for it.
In comics, the numbers are rising. I don't like to admit it, but I think paper's days are numbered. I expect all media to be digital within my life time.
Even manga's becoming digital. I still like reading on paper though.
Desu. Kui Ryoko's paneling is god-tier.
Same, I'm gonna be sad to see it go.
I dunno, to me there seem to be too few good examples. SSSS is good, as you mentioned, and although its release is too slow for my liking I like Unsounded. Aside from that...can't really think of much of anything I like.
Paranatural almost was something I thought I'd love but for various reasons it fell out of my favor. I'd like to be optimistic about the western comic scene but I'd need many more good examples to actually feel that way.
I think the main issue is that no one has really done a great job of trying to build a digital comic, proper. There are lot of individual comics, with their own erratic schedules, but someone should put together a group of talented individuals and have a weekly anthology that people can subscribe to and read on their phone. Pay a certain amount per comic, or a set amount for the whole thing. Piracy would obviously be an issue, but I doubt it would be a big one if you were basically selling a black and white version for super cheap on a weekly basis, and then sold color trades as physical copies.
True that would probably be a good idea.
As I'd mentioned, release schedules are an issue for me and I bet for a lot of people. Webcomics that are actual long stories just are NOT fucking good for the "every couple of days, a single page" format. It makes sense for ad revenue or whatever but it sucks as an experience.
Your idea could actually possibly work out, but you'd need someone crazy enough and with enough money to try it in the first place.
Mostly, I think, you need connections. You get one or two big names, and a bunch of talented nobodies, and you cut them in for shares of the company instead of pay. Basically, the Image model, but digital.
This is a good thread.
Recently I started Golgo 13 and really love the paneling. I wish somebody would pick it up again.
Have you read Evan Dahm's stuff?
150+ volumes is too daunting.
Not from manga that's for sure. 99% of Mangaka out there put next to no effort in paneling which is why confusing, garbled and ugly sequences are so extremely common in manga.
I'm interested in this. Is this only ever applied to korean webcomic?
I've read Annarasumanara but that's it.
It was a really huge thing among the American webcomics community during the mid 00's, but I dont' know how much it gets explored these days. Korea's got its own style and explores it heavily, but Annarasumanara is probably the only one I've ever read that I thought was great.
Yes, I have. I often forget about him because I don't want to read anything he makes while he's making it. Rice Boy was incredible.
the koreans have been the leaders in it as of late. but it snot exclusive and they didn't invent it.
Because they're webcomics are meant to be scrolled and click page clicked for ad revenue it developed quite nicely.
I like how it gives the illusion of animation
What's that pic from?
Saucefags are the lowest form of life
is this fujimi lovers
what a great concept turned into an entirely mediocre series
I still like it, although it seems like it might have been canned without resolution.
Fucking Shintaro Kago. Made me appreciate guro even though I used to detest it.
checking the comments on batoto, they claim it ended but i couldnt find any raws
when i was reading it, shit got tired quick after 4 chapters since the pacing was tiring and you almost expected the same conclusion after a while.
maybe if he had stretched out each arc kinda like how the rezero manga did it, it would be less tiring.
I'm not supposed to read all that right?
I'd rather take the straight forward approach that many western comics have over the nigh unreadable garbage that manga becomes as soon as there's even remotely complex action on he panels.
putting the bubles of text where the light here.
What the fuck are they even thinking, this shit becomes so hard to read, as if the typo wasn't shitty enough already.
With most Korean comics ("webtoons", they call them...which is honestly dumb) it sucks. It sucks a lot.
With most, it's like this
Night void of creativity. The idea is supposed to be that motion is conveyed from your scrolling, but it's just shitty.
It is not always bad, but often.
Shintaro Kago is a brilliant motherfucker, but I can't read his work without being sick.
second to last panel
3 dimensional and it recycles panels.
Not sure what you mean by recycle here.
Holy shit, as if I didn't love him enough already.
Stop reading bad manga.
The panels as boxes are "reused" for the next one, the things from the previous panels are still there.
Water, characters, etc.
Oh good. Just making sure.
desu this is why I stick to anime the vast majority of the time. I dropped Medaka Box recently because the fights were a chore to follow
tfw, no one here mentioned hox's blog post
The webcomic of One Punch Man is a good series to examine if you want to see how important good paneling can be.
Even though the art can obviously be pretty bad in places, ONE has such a fantastic grasp of paneling and how to make smart use of the comic medium. His limited artistic skills become an almost non issue, especially in the Monster Association arc.
People say this all the time, but I just don't see it.
what the fuck are niggers even doing?
I hope you aren't speed reading or trying to flip through fights to simulate animation instead of paying attention to details
manga =/= webtoons
How? ONE just does good work there. At no point is anything confusing, even with his rough art. That's pretty astonishing.
Biomega reads like a storyboard
Bad art doesn't necessarily make things confusing. I mean, I can still tell what his characters are doing even by looking at an individual panel, It's just aesthetically unpleasing. Ther's no ambiguity that his paneling really needs to clea up, and neither is there anything really exceptional about his composition's aesthetics, at least in my opinion.
You better not be shit talking flip o rama
This is fucking crazy.
The effort required to follow conversations is extremely minimal in both comic and manga. That comparison is worthless. I'm talking about works that have constant action. A fuck ton of Manga artists are incredibly messy and fill their panels with absolutely hideous effects to mask their lack of skill and they also pay very little attention to the flow of battle and constantly try to stick way too much in one page of action.
Comics are light years ahead manga when it comes to action and readability.
Fuck, my 'r' key seems to be having some issues.
Bad art inherently makes it harder to follow action, because you have to get across actual flow to the reader. ONE overcomes this with good paneling and weight.
And then people asks me why I don't read more comics. Manga panneling is so fucking much better and enjoyable to read. Most of the time a comic is a pain to read, that shit shouldn't happen.
Another example, tried to read McKean's batman comic recently, and holy shit that fucking Joker font.
It's not just the art too, how they usually overuse dark shadows everywhere (especially on the faces) is annoying as fuck. The worst part is that some artists like Khota Hirano and Boichi uses them really well, but I can't say the same for comics.
You know, I can respect Shintaro Kago. I really can.
However, I think I am seriously not a fan of his work at ALL. He is actually too fucking weird for me, and often disturbing.
Go read something from Garo or Tezuka from 50 years ago and compare that.
Are you sure you mean follow? I'd agree that obviously it's less impactful, but I wouldn't say it inherently makes it harder to follow.
I don't know if this counts as paneling or pacing, but Nihei figured out of to perfectly visual split-second actions over several pages.
all these people who can't handle black-and-white cartoon gore
Seriously Sup Forums?
Why the hell are they even doing that? Are they just trying to be "original" and have their own "personal" look?
One of the few that ever did use the shitty webtoon format at least decently. Nearly all the remainder are just whitespace galore. Nothing happens.
It's for mobile users.
It's actively hard to follow. It's easy to fuck up an action scene, especially when you don't have color to differentiate objects in panels. If you go back and read stuff like early Jojo, it can be very easy to lose the train of what's going on in a fight, because it all starts to blur together. Most of the time, a reader will just sort of glaze over that and move on, because that's basic communication, but it's never an issue in ONE's stuff, every action is completely clear.
It's not really meant to be handled.
In many ways, Kago is a deliberately provoking artist.
that right hand
I don't think that how you should carry something heavy.
It's meant to be read by scrolling down a phone.
I think that has more to do with art.
You have to remember that a lot of manga are rushed out the door every single week. That's why I said before that most manga are little more than doodles. The truly good art in manga mostly comes from monthlies or from the rare super skilled genius who is able to put out weekly action series that actually looks okay.
That's why I almost never read manga aside from a few monthlies here and there. Anime >>>>>> messy black and white doodles
Fucking korean manwha man.
One of the reason why I can't into Tower of God.
I love his work.
Its a shame so many people are turned off by all the surface gore and scat, because once you get past that, he's great.
Fuck can't unsee
But anon, the average anime typically has worse art than the manga it's adapted from.
There's a lot more out there that you're ignoring, and most anime looks like trash, too, even if it's easier to follow.
only adapted to be read on a tiny device
What a waste. The usual format is perfectly adapted for tablets and computers, what the hell are they thinking.
I feel like you don't read that much manga.
I'm pretty sure even mobile phone scum don't need miles and miles of blank space.
I'm not sure I can back this statement entirely. If you're talking mistakes and QUALITY or the unnecessary animefication that happens (see: Parasyte) to make all anime look so uniform, you might have a point.
It's a different format. It looks a lot better than the standard format on a smartphone screen, there's no need to zoom in for details or anything. That said, it's still pretty bad a lot of the time, because webtoons are largely put together by amateurs with no real training.
I can't handle body horror at all. Kago's close enough to it that it still fucks me up.
I did say I can appreciate them after reading Kago's works. Especially ero guro.
What else would he be referring to? Anime has worse art, and makes up for it through movement and color.
Who knows. Sup Forums are just pussies. Or little girls.
I mean they generally have to cut on detail and streamline stuff, since they have a limited budget and are drawing ~10000 frames an episode instead of the few hundred panels that episode probably adapts.
me on the right
It's a consistency issue for sure. You might find something pretty good, and then see it fucking reused every time, just you know because they have to.
I keep meaning to read this, then keep forgetting.
Award winners usually are (or nominees). Ashizuri Aquarium is a fucking must for anyone who has a real appreciation for manga.
Hiroaki Samura and Blade of the Immortal made me realize just how shitty most manga art is. Fights in BOTI flow beautifully and never is the reader confused. Then you go pick up JoJos or SnK or Bleach and it's like wtf lmao I'm not going to fuck my eyes up trying to decipher this trash and that's why I stopped reading manga
I want to read more manga from this artist.
It's funny how everyone talking about how they quit manga because of bad fights types like a crossboarder and seems to mainly read shitty battle shounen.
It took until Part 7 for Araki to make fight scenes look comprehensible.
No mention of Palepoli? For shame. For shame. Mastery of the 4koma.
stopped reading mangaentirely because he read a few bad manga
your lost senpai
manga =/= webtoons
and thank god for that
Anime definitely had a uniform style that's in many cases reduced a bit in detail compared to the source material. However, the fact that you're pretending the average manga isn't a rushed out the door weekly series with extremely little detail and 3D backgrounds tells me you're either baiting or too stupid and ignorant to seriously engage.
it's like wtf lmao
You will immediately cease and not continue to access the site if you are under the age of 18.
Zamurai is a work of art.
Why are you reading average manga?
Well for the most part, I don't read a lot of action manga anymore. Certainly stopped reading most things shit out weekly or in popular magazines.
Thank you sir.
Does anyone have statistics on how many manga/magazines actually run weekly vs monthly vs whatever? MU doesn't provide that information, which is shit.
Furuya's older works are pure art
Who the fuck thought leaving this much white space on a comic was a good idea.
Same. I stopped reading action manga long ago. The manga I read now a days are either ecchi/romance/comedy or drama/psychological stuff.
dude, that's awesome
I should say, modern things shit out weekly or in popular magazines. Some of the guys of yore were fucking insane back in the day like Tezuka.
Are you even supposed to read that? What an obnoxious font.
Off-topic, but does anyone else get really bugged when scanlators do vertical text from left to right within the box/bubble, like they do in the second box on the first panel here? It fucks me up every time.
You meant that actually stick to magazine's schedule or in general?
Comics are light years ahead manga when it comes to action and readability.
the infinite canvas is best for readability
if not for per click / per page ads it probably wouldve taken off
the korean manwha are using it for mobile devices so maybe itll catch on again when people figure out how amazing it is
imagine japanese style paneling with the infinite canvas, not having to be boxed into a page
To be fair, the amount of detail in art has gone up an awful lot since the 60s.
Interesting study on comparing manga panelling with American comic panelling.
Research on visual attention has shown that Americans tend to focus more on focal objects of a scene while Asians attend to the surrounding environment.
The panels of comic books – the narrative frames in sequential images – highlight aspects of a scene comparably to how attention becomes focused on parts of a spatial array.
Thus, we compared panels from American and Japanese comics to explore cross-cultural cognition beyond behavioral experimentation by looking at the expressive mediums produced by individuals from these cultures.
This study compared the panels of two genres of American comics (Independent and Mainstream comics) with mainstream Japanese “manga” to examine how different cultures and genres direct attention through the framing of figures and scenes in comic panels.
Both genres of American comics focused on whole scenes as much as individual characters, while Japanese manga individuated characters and parts of scenes.
We argue that this framing of space from American and Japanese comic books simulate a viewer’s integration of a visual scene, and is consistent with the research showing cross-cultural differences in the direction of attention.
tl;dr Japanese panels are more focused than American ones.
Or tl;dr American comics are much more readable to the eye than Japanese manga and thus its way easier to focus on not just specific objects but the entire scene as well
well drawn or not, captain marvel has the shittiest design
I thought the point of most of JJBA was that it was largely incomprehensible.
Either would be fine. I just want a general grasp, because that anon's implication that it's largely weekly feels off-base to me.
fite me fagit
I know. I told Hox how fucking annoying it was. The manga itself is just as jarring (in a good way) as the vertical text, so it was the easier thing to get used to.
I agree. But it's not necessarily the good kind of detail. Like all the dumbass copypasted backgrounds and shit done by incompetent assistants. At the same time, I think a lot of people prided themselves more in their craft. I look at the backgrounds by Mizuki and there's just so much more love there.
Good book and covers mango as well
He's really proud of that Joker in the bottom right. Third time I've seen it.
imagine japanese style paneling with the infinite canvas, not having to be boxed into a page
That sounds like shit. The page is like a giant panel, it's a visual unit that you fill out knowing exactly how the reader will look at it. Taking that away limits the author's ability to determine how the content is viewed.
I find it interesting that most comic books tend to have some level of detail in all of their panels while a lot of manga don't bother with backgrounds in some of their panels.
Anyone have stuff from Hiroaki Samura?
I think it's the color difference. Panels like this one would be more confusing with a background, but without color to differentiate objects.
That's because they know how to give focus. Backgrounds will just distract you in some situations.
So much more love than what, though? I mean, we're talking an industry of thousands and thousands of creators here, obviously it's going to vary Look at some of Tsutomu Takahashi's weekly stuff and tell me he's not taking pride in his craft. Or Innocent, or Air Gear, etc. There's plenty of good, dedicated art in weekly magazines, even in recent times.
That's what tones are here for though. Again for this one it was because it wouldn't fit the action.
when i read bleach for the first time
I guess that's really the difference. There's way more artists and it's a lot more diluted I feel. Maybe I'm just a stickler about screentone.
Even then, it's all black and white. This seems to me like a good example of a page that would be without a background if it were in manga.
What are some comic books that love to abuse spreadshots and massive fucking panels like in manga?
How does the raw looked like?
Calvin and Hobbes has great spreads.
I guess that makes sense in dialogue heavy scenes but not action scenes like . A background would only serve to show the setting of what's happening and won't be as distracting.
reading this right here right now
Not really if you ask me.
I guess it largely depends on the author's whims.
If he want you to really pay attention to what this giant guy is doing, he might draw a background, but not as detailed.
From my personal observation on some Kodansha magazines, bi/weekly magazines give some freedom to their authors. Like, some weekly manga will be only in two-three issues out of four per month, for example. I don't know whether it's due to deadlines, people getting tired or just simple lack of available space in magazine, though. As for monthlies, they do have series that are published irregularly or bimonthly, yes. Historie, for example, is published bimonthly, and whenever new volume is about to be published Iwaaki takes a break to finish drawing the stuff for it.
There might be some Japanese blog about all this, but I don't know of such one. You can get more info on Japanese wiki, it usually list stuff that's being published irregularly or on hiatus.
A background would lessen the impact of that scene, I feel.
If it was manga, it would probably have speed lines instead of backgrounds. Honestly, that looks flat as fuck.
There's a reason this went around OPT for so many years. Fuck Koreans and their switch to webtoons.
Samura really doesn't have outstanding paneling.
Everything else is pretty much god-tier tho.
Sad that his best art is horrific abuse porn.
So, I really don't know anything about art or panels. But I really like this page. Am I a scrub?
nah, the panels are good at directing the eye through the sequence of the combat.
But if you've been reading the manga, you'll know what the setting is. The action, as in the sequence of this person did this and that was the result, is there, and it's not jostling for space background elements that serve no real purpose. The whole shape of the image there, with the big spiral, leads the eye in a certain direction, between a small object and a large one. An intrusive background would diminish that.
This is one of my main problems with mainstream American comics, they clutter up every frame with background that really has no visual purpose. It's not there to add to the visual scheme, and it competes with the art.
I miss moon knight
While you do make a good point, I was more annoyed with this aspect when it was more prevalent during the Golden Age and Silver Age of Comic Books, mostly because the backgrounds are just flat colors.
I think part of it's the color, honestly. Not only is it all colored, but they don't seem to like soft tones much, so everything in the background always stands out and interferes, whereas in manga your background is going to have a ton of white space and won't dominate so much.
"Me and the Devil Blues" had some sweet panelling too, if I recall.
Goddamn that stitch.
Sad that his best art is horrific abuse porn.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
no that is a good example of how japan made manga 100 years ago
I searched, but I don't have a reaction image to properly convey my emotions here.
Absolute god with a pencil.
A background would only serve to show the setting of what's happening and won't be as distracting.
But the previous pages (should) already do that. No need to be so redundant about it. You're supposed to focus on that thing the character did so the artist removed all distraction ie the background.
I can feel my vagina clenched, even though I don't have one
Funnily enough, one of the more work safe drawings in that artbook.
It's a shame that his current series is incredibly mediocre.
Sandman is easily my favourite comic book series.
Too bad he's lazy as fuck.
meant to reply to
Styles in genres of Japanese comics also vary (Schodt, 1983, 1996; Gravett, 2004), but primarily conform to the stereotypical style of big eyes, pointy chins and noses, and big hair.
Welp. Somehow I also don't think the hipster, alt scene is smaller than the US.
However, since genres in Japan do not align neatly with those in America (Shonen “boys comics,” Shojo “girls comics,” and Gekiga “serious comics”), books were chosen that reflected the genre closest to Mainstream American comics – those focusing primarily on action/adventure themes (Shonen “boys comics”)
Hurr durr. Great job invalidating a lot of the study by looking only at shonen. It's funny how they liken mainstream to simply shonen. They don't even mention seinen and gekiga has been dead for effectively like three decades.
That time when Garth Ennis shit all over Gaiman.
You mean radio host? I love his series like Ohikkoshi because he can actually fucking write a plot.
Garth Ennis is an edgelord anyways.
Funny, then, how well he writes Superman.
Thought he was still working on that god awful fetish fest with the female assassins.
What he really needs to be doing is going back and making Emerald a full series.
Thought he was still working on that god awful fetish fest with the female assassins.
How can you mix up Samura with Trash?
The arttsyles are completely different.
He's doing more than one series in most likelihood.
Damn, I really need to read this someday.
It's art porn. Don't think too highly of the plot.
Maybe he's talking about Beageruta, which is still ongoing.
I don't know, I think comics are usually pretty bad at conveying motion. They look like they're mostly just floating around instead of actually doing something most of the time.
I's weird if you read this after Prison School. The author uses the same drama scenes panneling and effects, but this time it's taken seriously.
Dude, what? Blade of The Immortal is pretty damn good for writing as far as manga goes.
I assume you mean western comics. They certainly feel a lot more static.
I've got a soft spot for these descending wide view panels.
as far as manga goes
Or you should read manga with better plot. I don't think I would qualify that statement in that way, like ever.
I swear to god, this guy must have bullshitted his way through life like no other, because every time I see his name it's attached to something retarded.
Was he part of Viz who screwed over the translation of Phoenix?
Moon Knight is amazing, though. You hear about him and you think "knockoff Batman", but that fucking art. Hnngh.
What/which artbook? I searched the artist's name in sekrit club and I don't know which it is.
It's not there.
Where can I find them?
Aside from the shadowing I find Bisley's art really fantastic, especially in his Slaine works
Sure, artistically speaking he deserves his reputation.
That Batman comic of his is overrated as fuck though
Nevermind. Found it.
I wish he could do more of it. But that's past.
exactly the same perspective i had back then as a kid, getting lost and freaking the fuck out.
that tear, picked the fuck up just to see her reactions.
read american comic
literally no sense of unique style or artistic appeal whatsoever no matter how skilled the artist is
the comic industry is dead over here. anyone with any semblance of creativity works in a field that has some merit like animated movies or video games. in those fields you actually will get paid.
Simple well drawn paneling is nice
Any Abe Youichi fans here? Love his style
JUN, cause you know, it's JUN.
Visually interesting, but I was never a fan of the actual stories unfortunately. I know there's a few though.
You mean 2000-era tier flash game type mobile apps right?
I'm defending the general style of a comic book genre because I feel opinions against it are attacking women as a whole
fuck off femnazi / white knight
I dig his works, yeah.
I wonder what's the symbolic meaning for a dude with a goldfish bowl for a head, though.
What a kneejerk reaction. You could have said something at least constructive, because all you do is undermine yourself.
In many ways, I don't even think that the two eras of Shoujo manga even compare that well. Maybe if you were to compare Year 24 group manga to modern josei, I think you'd see much closer a comparison. Oftentimes I think modern shoujo is some terrible malformed offshoot with few of the better parts that came with their founders.
It's suppose to simulate that wait you get turning a page or loading between chapters. They felt stacking panels on top of each other distracts the flow, as your attention goes towards spoilers or drifts to what happened not clearly reading the present.
So it's supposed to stimulate 90's dial up internet?
It's like one of those fads with deconstructed food. They get to serve you less as you pay the same amount of money and spend the same amount of time trying to put it together.
Basically, drag on stories and pretend like anything happens week to week. They 'excel' at dumb battle shounen which makes a large proportion of their comics, and are even worse than their Japanese counterparts in their pacing issues.
Name a single buzzword in that. Because I think someone needs to buy you a dictionary.
Well mobile phone browsing is probably that shit with all their crummy ads and poor use of space.
I thought corea had the fastest internet in the world?
The average webpage is now the size of Doom, I don't think that matters.
That sounds pretty horrible if you're actually right. So not only do they have to wait for this long ass image to load, the image itself has massive breaks that simulates the effect of waiting. You're basically waiting twice as long.
It's always four isn't it? I guess the whole 4-koma thing.
Someone needs to buy you a brain, faggot.
It's all relative.
Something like Kokou no Hito is really fucking good, but then you read something like Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World and you just go "woah".
I feel like this page has a nice flow to it
It's probably shit, though
really fucking good
No it isn't. It's a pretty terrible cookie-cutter, actually cardboard cutout look on autism. After the author goes beyond whatever source material they have, it devolves into pretty bland shounen with pretty stock tropes, really stupid characterization and a really predictable and oft-repeated end.
This one is awesome, but I also like elegant paneling like Iwaaki's Historie. It conveys the movement of the perspective nicely, to fit with the historical fictional narration. Considered in itself, however, it's very basic and unremarkable. It's probably because of Iwaaki not hiring any assistants, but it doesn't detract the value of the aesthetics, so long it's not those unfinished sketches of some of the series' magazine issues.
It's fucking good for the creatively bankrupt and poorly written medium that is manga.
Also, if you actually think Kokou no Hito was a treatise on autism, congrats on having the analytical ability of a 7th grader.
Nanatsu no Taizai, besides good panels it also has incredible action scenes
Yeah, Togashi can make some nice art. It's just that he's either lazy or sick often (or both).
Because you clearly have not read any well written manga.
It was according to some dumb graduate psychologist who praised it to no end. And to a number of dumbasses on Sup Forums.
you clearly have not read any well written manga.
But I've obviously read enough literature to spot an obvious oxymoron.
So no real facts. Just conjecture.
Says the man claiming the existence of these mythical "well written manga" without naming a single one.
bitching about female mangaka panelling
Aki Irie, Kaoru Mori and Akiko Hagishamura have some of the best panelling in modern manga.
Predictable. I was waiting for the moment you would ask. There's no point to it regardless because you're hellbent to think the other way.
He says, still failing to provide a single example.
Are you so insecure your your taste won't hold up under scrutiny?
NO STOP DON'T DARE POST ANY OF THAT,I WILL HAVE NIGHTMARES AGAIN
Anyway, different manga, but this one is also unremarkable, for an otherwise well-known grotesque manga. It relies mainly on making unrelated objects work together (spoon pulling her eye, without any blood spilled...yet). Considered in itself, there are other manga with more interesting paneling, like Palepoli, etc.
Not him but why should he bother to spoonfeed a worthless faggot like you? Get your subhuman nigger ass to work.
it devolves into pretty bland shounen with pretty stock tropes, really stupid characterization and a really predictable and oft-repeated end.
At what point did it become like that?
Please don't respond unless you have a decent education.
I only notice paneling when it's really bad. It feels like the editors and shit do a good job in making sure the paneling is readable and flows well even for newly published mangaka.
You also have most of mangaka release tons of doujins beforehand which probably helps improve.
I know, right?
Dude obviously never read it, and was just parroting what he had heard before.
I mean, it's literally fucking backwards. KnH starts out as a standard shounen, not fucking ends up as one. Not to mention the source material comment, despite the fact that the manga has no source material besides a passing inspiration.
And the end not only wasn't that predictable, it's not exactly oft repeated.
wasn't it based off a novel?
I was about to drop this manga since the art is odd in the first few chapters but I kept reading after seeing this page.
One of the best manga series by one of the best mangaka.
It's "Inspired" by a book written about the fictional adventures of a real life person.
The novel and the manga basically share nothing in common.
Oh, and remember that manga writer left the manga during the shounen stages, at which point Sakamoto took the story in the direction that its known for.
The master of manga panelling is Takao Saito, after him my favourite is Goseki Kojima. I like guys who can make a manga feel like a movie.
Hirohiko Araki is the only 'modern' artist I can think of when I am thinking of people who do panelling really well.
It's been long since I've read it. From what I remember, it's exactly like you said. At first, I felt like it's a sport shonen manga. Then, all except the main guy died, which changes the tone, than when it's just two high school boys competing against each others. I could be wrong, though. Did his teacher die before the mountain blizzard arc?
Did his teacher die before the mountain blizzard arc?
Teacher dies right before the timeskip, when Mori goes off to climb by himself.
If it's a Panda Trueno no one could catch up to it in Mount Akina.
I enjoyed this paneling by Osamu Tezuka.
read enough literature to spot an obvious oxymoron
I will never understand this mentality of 'well written'. All you're saying is "I like it's writing", and are trying to imply there's some objective truth to it.
It gets even worse when you imply literature is well written because that is a meaningless generalization.
Cinematic style is pretty boring. It will never beat real cinematography, including animation.
This. HxH was also my first manga.
Don't respond to /lit/fags.
Fuck off to your containment thread.
Good taste, that's one of my favorite panels.
Dragonball actually has really good panelling. Toriyama used to work for an advertising agency, IIRC.
There were a bunch of pretty long articles about it on some dude's blog, but I can't seem to find them now.
pls someone tell me where this is from
Red is what I think is the intended flow. The middle panel feel a bit awkward.
When I tried to read Nihei's manga.
That's nothing new. Anyone that read it shoud be able to understand that, he Recoom fight still gets posted from times to times on DBS threads.
Mainstream American comics are capes. Why would you waste time comparing capes to shojo manga?
google image search
Where's the flow?
You're definitely supposed to notice Shirou (bottom panel guy) first. It's parallel to the top panel where you're supposed to look at GoD first.
I think it's this: By 'things that are well-written (not manga for him)', it's from his point of view. That's why he said that he already read enough literature to support his view. Because of that, it probably has something to do with originality.
It's hard to judge a visual art in terms of literature, though. The basic 'unit' of music is melody. For a sequential visual art, what then? A panel? Perhaps it should start by determining whether within the collections of panel, the manipulation of such visuals, something original can emerge. Thus, perhaps it's not a panel, which is the basic unit of sequential art, but the phenomenological experience (illusory, fictional) 'in-between' that emerged from the sequence of panels. It's interesting because there are lots of information that the readers have to 'adjust' themselves (some people can't stand comics, especially the speech bubbles), but in a different way than literature. It's still concrete. This is the thing that is to be judged, whether it's original or not. It's also different from a painting/picture, as it is not judged by way of a single panel alone, one page alone, and so forth.
If I'm not mistaken, Didn't Scott McCloud discuss this?
(Even then, not everyone agrees that it can be broken down like that, since an artwork is constituted as a whole, and thus the basic unit would be that particular art as a unique object. It leaves out any possibility of generalizations, since the artwork is only commensurable to itself.)
I don't think so. Shiro's hand even crosses panels to direct the flow to the box and extending bom-things.
Shiro's hand overextending makes you focus on his arm and which is what you're supposed to be looking at. You don't go straight to the box.
There's also the sloping nature of the panel. You will notice his arm first.
The action scene looks cool, but the panelling looks absolutely average to me. What's supposed to be good about it?
Where's the flow?
it actually works diagonally
no, this guy knows what he's doing.
With all the western comics in here, I surprised no one has put up a Calvin and Hobbes strip yet.
it wasn't Dio. IT WAS ME BARRY!
Sup Forums's been talking about this manga for years
He's fantastic. Reminds me a little of Dowman Sayman.
I've been on 4chan for years and I've never seen that image. Get off your high horse and just say "google image search".
Really? It's posted a LOT.
This literally looks like something by Ohba and Obata. Reading through Death Note and Bakuman strained my eyes and took forever
Oh, I've seen images from that manga, mostly as OP images. I've never been interested in it enough to check it out.
hell Sup Forums even had dedicated translation threads it was that big.
ITT: muh superior nippon paneling folded 1000 times
You people never cease to amaze me.
That's actually the only thing I like about American comics. :-(
Simple panels can be really effective. Like this entire chapter in Watchmen
Magi has it's moments.
That looks fantastic actually. Always wanted to read watchmen
those Clamp proportions
still love SAO though
Different anon here. I would say usually it's all standard boxes and paneling, but sometimes it can look really good. And the great thing about Nakaba's art is that there's always something happening in each panel, and each panel is always really busy and detailed.
Because that's how you'd get a valid study concerning mainstream comics? Once you limit yourselves to shounen just because, the scope is extremely limited an your research becomes almost useless.
If you haven't a highly recommend it, it's a single largish volume, lots of supplementary material, lots of stuff you don't notice the first time around, all around pinnacle of American comic making. Even among literary critics for traditional novels Watchman is held in high regards.
Read it, avoid the movie at all costs.
Read it. It's legitimately one of the best comics ever made
If you don't control for genre, then the results will be skewed because action comics are going to use a different balance of panels compared to something less dynamic.
How is it that no one has mentioned Frank Quietly? I know that people have differing opinions on the way his art looks but his paneling is pretty damn great.
You can see the ejection port.
It looks like a chink 1911
This is delicously meta.
This isn't so much about paneling as it is about the layout of the action, I guess. But hey, who cares?
I like the paneling in UQ Holder
There are tons of action manga that aren't shounen (and tons of shounen manga that aren't action, but I'm hoping they meant battle shounen). I'd also argue that if there are in fact major cultural differences in focus/attention, that could easily be an influence on the kinds of genres that get made, in which case ignoring that would skew your findings badly. It's possible they thought of and addressed that in the paper, though.
I thought this was pretty good.
I'd also argue that if there are in fact major cultural differences in focus/attention, that could easily be an influence on the kinds of genres that get made, in which case ignoring that would skew your findings badly
But surely if you're trying to study the effect of culture on panelling, then you'll want be sure the only factor you're comparing is in fact culture, so you'd want to stick to comparing the action/adventure comics of one culture with the action/adventure comics of the other to eliminate differences due to other factors? The frequency of genre due to culture is independent of the way panels are arranged within the genre after all.
There are tons of action manga that aren't shounen
Sure, but then demographics come into play, your average mainstream cape comic's target age range is closer to shonen battle manga than it is to something like Berserk or Gantz or Vinland Saga.
Really don't like the hard black, even most manga with black around the paneling is pretty matte
I like it, it goes well with both the tone of the series and the movie-like feeling of the action sequence. What is it that bothers you about it?
The thing is, once you go through all that, you aren't comparing mainstream comics as a whole anymore, you're just comparing action/adventure comics targeted at young males. Which is a valid
comparison, but its scope is not the same as the comparison they seem to be claiming they're making (again, just going by the abstract).
The frequency of genre due to culture is independent of the way panels are arranged within the genre after all.
Yes, but the greater prevalence of genres with a different standard of paneling could be a result of cultural differences in focus, right?
Just a very large amount of distracting negative space, having darks that dark doesn't got well with with an otherwise light and desaturated color palette.
I think having a white or a brighter background would be a non-option with how he uses the the panels to fade out with the borders. For me it just flows very well with black here.
I wish someone would translate the Garo magazine. From the scans, there's a lot of interesting paneling in there that evolves over the years.
The diversity is in accepted ideas, unlike the western idea that having someone with different genitals or skin color means the story is going to have an interesting flair to it.
Yeah Sengoku Youko has some great panelling.
That's narrowing it down a little bit don't you think?
Morrison's works always seem to feature good paneling
I read skip beat.
I don't owe you any explanation I just did. It was set up so badly that I stopped. After that I appreciated a good panel set up. Beelzebub back when it was good also made use of the panels to get the best out of a joke so I appreciated that as well.
When is the non-H manga adaptation of this coming out again?
He works with some pretty great artists.
And in that page, you got the singular reason why large western comics are irredeemable.
They run so long they have to turn their retcons I to story arcs.
Then don't read the Big Two.
Non-capeshit comics exists, I mostly read those
I stick to creator-owned/indie
Fuck, I'm hearing Luv Sic pt 2 in my head now.