This is a thread for the discussion of all ideologies that promote self-ownership, individual liberty and the natural order. These include (but are not limited to) anarcho-capitalism, paleolibertarianism, minarchy, objectivism and anti-leftism (i.e. physical removal, so to speak). All others are welcome to learn and debate us. Reminder that this is a right-wing thread, so libertine degenerates ('live and let live' faggotry), open-border advocates and faux-libertarians (e.g. Gary Johnson) are not welcome here - people here recognise that property rights imply discrimination and a return to traditional, conservative values. Although questions are welcome, many are repeated often, so it is recommended you research the basics first. Nobody here is obligated to debate with you, so try to avoid using fallacies in your arguments or creating unrealistic scenarios.
FURTHER READING: >Reference - See i.imgur.com/wCIpgNA.jpg >Torrent - magnet:?xt=urn:btih:8d8ec6ef882dee291f119eb69994797574e5d616&dn=Anarcho-Capitalism%20Books
THREAD THEME: >hoppewave | Hans-Hermann Hoppe | physical removal - youtube.com/watch?v=LP41IK91_qA >Against the State - (Hoppewave Hans Hermann Hoppe) - youtube.com/watch?v=HLaqr3QorCw >I need a Pinochet! - youtube.com/watch?v=zhrYY3ocQ5o >Drop it like it's Hoppe - youtube.com/watch?v=HPKGgo4kGQM
Michael Gomez
Physical Removal when?
Ryder Phillips
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Angel Cox
Not soon enough
Hudson Edwards
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Christian Lee
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Joshua Diaz
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Jonathan Ramirez
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Samuel Long
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Logan Moore
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Carson Gomez
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Jonathan Gonzalez
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Jonathan Walker
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Anthony Scott
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Connor King
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Brandon Jackson
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Adam Gray
YEAAAAAH BOIs!!! What's every cunt reading? You cunts do read don't you?
Jaxon Bailey
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Nathaniel Clark
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Ayden Torres
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Ethan Martinez
just watchin' the currency markets my dude, my fuckin STEM program keeps me pretty busy as far as books go. any new recommendations?
Oliver Gutierrez
AnCaps and Libertarians don't read
Nathan Adams
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Jordan Bailey
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Owen Williams
That has got to be the most naive & vague pasta on this board. How closely do you guys actually follow it? To the same degree as Liberts & the NAP? To the saem degree as Liberts & Self-ownership? Or more of a guideline than a doctrine because that post is some serious dog shit.
Levi Brown
IT WORKS
Liam Watson
>Dresden >Hiroshima >The Holocaust
White people are the least libertarian race in the world. Libertarianism isn't possible in a white society.
Michael Campbell
see you later, gator
Angel Bailey
I think people should make sure they've actually read & absorbed the classics desu. Too many people just skip over them or assume they know what's going on but miss all the little nuggets & thought patterns of our authors in our traditions.
Michael Anderson
you are 100% correct there anybody got the reading macro handy??
Brandon Ross
ah I found one !
Sebastian Bailey
What's wrong with it exactly? >To the same degree as Liberts & the NAP? >implying that is followed Everyone has a different definition of what is covered under the NAP. Do animals have it? Do Communists have their own? Do children? What makes "covenants" any different than mob rule? On another note, why are AnCaps triggered by the word government? Not all government is bad, just like how not all corporations are good. It's naive to grant every individual poterntially unlimited power if they grow big enough, to say nothing of the current corrupt private corporations. How do you intend to stop Jews from banding together to rig the free market into being less than free?
Lucas Adams
Any undergraduate college microeconomics textbook is better than any of that trash under "economics".
Lincoln Allen
>animals nope
>communists less than animals
>government no problem as long as it's legitimate, of course that isn't the case. Minarchism is a decent position in the short term, but you want a full-on fashy state eh?
Hey, as a NATSOC aren't you anti-democracy? You'd be better off to support our position. The enemy of my enemy-- am I rite?
Jeremiah Nguyen
I didn't make the graphic it's just some old graphic from a previous /lrg/, but I take it you don't spend a lot of time on mises.org?
Jose Perez
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Bentley Lopez
I used to be a Mises kid beforel I studied actual economics. Lew Rockwell & company are cranks.
David Rogers
Yeah there you go, it's the precursors I'm talking about though. The classical liberals, learning the actualy tradition of freedom that lead to where we are with Ancap.
We're a bit divorced from our history, 500 years of enlightenment & liberal history. David Boaz book the Libertarian Reader: From Lao Tzu to Milton Friedman, I mean how many people have actually gotten stuck into Hayek & Mises? Or Locke/Bastiat? How do we get these conclusions of life, liberty & property? etc.
I'm loving these older books, I mean they're not that old, Bastiat's The Law is a small book, 150 years old not a pain to read at all compared to trying to slog through Rousseau, I mean get some Rothbard into ya if you want but just be careful not to skip the link in tradition they have important arguments & an important basis.
Joseph Scott
To continue on the NAP, it is unenforceable and leads to chaos due to multiple interpretations on it's meaning. No two Libertarians will have the same exact meaning. >animals >nope There are Libertarians that would agree, and those that would argue otherwise. I personally don't think animal abuse should be allowed because of "muh property", but then again Libertarians only think about themselves because they are fucking stupid. This isn't even getting into other potential shit, like how cutting into profits could be breaking the NAP in some interpretations, or how private security would work, how anyone would defend from a nation attacking, etc. >The enemy of my enemy-- am I rite? No. Night of the Long Knives happened for a reason. Any leaning too far in either direction is stupid and dangerous. You need enough freedom to ensure that resources are only given to those who work hard and take risks, while ensuring that people can't group together abuse the system. Libertarians just ignore the second possibility because the free market is infallible and has never lead to crashes or depressions - oh wait.
Ryan Bennett
>argumentum ad verecundiam Woah everybody, we got a badass over here
What about Rothbard and Hoppe? When you say "studied economics" do you mean drank the Kool Aid on Keynesianism? I am a mathematician, not an economist, but you wouldn't be a big fan of fiat currency would you? How do you feel about the Federal Reserve and the IMF?
Jose Nelson
I am not sure of any point in post-feudal European history where the market was actually "free", but I can see why you feel that way.
You are correct, any chance there's a good list we can copy-paste for new recruits and old fags to learn their foundations?
Jace Carter
Do you agree that "personal property" is a well-defined concept?
Isaac Miller
>I am not sure of any point in post-feudal European history where the market was actually "free", but I can see why you feel that way. There will always be an entity controlling the market in someway, but that period is the closest it ever was to being completely free, yeah. Yes, but that's because there are laws and shit defining what that shit is, not because everyone in the U.S just suddenly decided to agree on the same definition.
Ryan Bell
>pick that can up or you'll be charged for littering >TFW already being forced to pay their salary even without littering taxation is theft >pick up that can of slurp-cola (tm) or we dock your pay by signing up for a job with them you agree to the terms. If I feel like working for a place with different terms of employment then I have the liberty to do so.
nazis can't into libertarianism
Landon Anderson
>referring to Keynesianism for no reason >crank obsession with money and the gold standard
Austrians are so predictable. I have no idea why you assume that I drank the kool aid on Keynesianism or the Federal Reserve. I didn't refer or allude to either at all.
Cooper King
then we agree that the market is not truly free, and therefore subject to cronyism and artificial scarcity.
I don't think laws define what property is, laws are generally reflections of appearances of contracts under english-style common law, so property law generally reflects practical usage as it refers to owned private property. Unfortunately you seem to be hitching the cart before the horse in your understanding of law, if you catch my drift.
Jordan Smith
>When you think your personal property is your own, but it actually belongs to whoever is stronger than you
Samuel White
Ok, so what is your issue then? For me it's all about currency.
that's a fair point most ancaps would agree with, but still it is undenaible that the concept of personal property is self-defining with no need for additional considerations for arbitrary usages of violence. That's pretty anti-NAP, y'know?
Lincoln Turner
So you are not into fiat currency then? How do you feel about the credit system?
Levi Davis
>the concept of personal property is self-defining what the fuck
Dylan Gray
>personal >property
need a dictionary, bucko?
Justin Cook
>taxation is theft No. It's people realizing that you are stronger in a group than alone. Taxes help build trust and unify based on the idea that everyone is contributing. You can't fight a country by yourself, user, and you will never be able to afford private armies or nukes. >then we agree that the market is not truly free, and therefore subject to cronyism and artificial scarcity You don't understand, the market will never truly "be free" because either you will have a government regulate certain aspects of the market, or in the case of no government, you will have people grouping together for a shared interest. >I don't think laws define what property is There is a reason that, in the past, if a people did not have established borders and a big enough gov, they were taken over, no matter how they saw their property. That's one of the reasons why we stopped being hunter gatherers - so we could clearly define what individuals owned, and what countries owed so other countries wouldn't invade so much and so there weren't constant fights just to survive.
Luis Butler
You have apples, I have fist now I have apples apples are mine
Wyatt Harris
Does a minimum wage lead to inflation? I thought that inflation was always and everywhere a printing press phenomenon, but price floors aren't printing press phenomena.
Connor Ward
I see nothing wrong with the statement by peterson
Colton Cook
Private property is a spook
Austin White
Reminder that lib-rights/ancaps are just pussified egoists. Lmao.
Luis Morris
I definitely sympathise with your view of history, but fundamentally we differ about the necessity of market regulation. I say that two entities engaging in consented transactions without the need for third party arbitration, subject only to local/effective market pressures (ie: availability of resources, etc) is a good thing that should not be inhibited by additional tiers of meddling by supposed governmental entities.
you have a fist, I have fully automated machine gun drones.
honestly, neither do I. I didn't make the graphic, it's just propaganda, y'know?
Brody Anderson
>you have a fist, I have fully automated machine gun drones. Lel, you just undercut your whole argument. Like I was saying, property belongs to whoever is the strongest
Jaxon Foster
here come the antifaggots
if you really believed that you wouldn't even have a computer. buddy. Why not give yourself over to the proletariat, comrade?
Ryder Carter
I know what you mean about animals but the general gist of it isn't vague, it's pretty specific. The problem I have with that pasta is everything comes across straight up as naive & vague: > unless the business has a positive impact on the nation as a whole Who says? How is this defined? Who decides? What's to stop people approving under the guise of "the good" and rejecting legit business under the guise of "against the public good" this shit has been abused through all of human history.
The whole image is rife with these vague terms and I just wonder if its an authoritarian order, how can this be maintained or assured or even set up in the first place compared to what people would actually set up, how people would actually act how they would actually use power as they always have you know what I mean? "public good" "good for the society as a whole" "for the worker". You know what people study economics they're observing human behaviour, this pasta seems to be deciding on how humans will act and I can't find out how this would be the case without specifics to implement and then maintain the order as desired.
I don't have a graphic for it but David Boaz book the Libertarian Reader is actually a good start, it's not too hard to trace the tradition because they all sort of interacted with eachother at various times.
I mean Mises was a huge inspiration for Hayek & Rothbard, who hung out with Friedman who hung out with Sowell. You've got Locke, Mill & Adam Smith, Bastiat popping up in French Liberalism, the resurgence of classical liberals with Mises & Hayek, Ayn Rand's offshoot, Leonard Reed keeping the flame alive & bringing people over, into Ancaps like Hoppe.
You can basically trace the medieval enlightenment, british, scottish & french liberalism, into Libertarianism & Ancap. Hundreds of years of freedom lovers vs authoritaians we should be proud of. Also claim Lao Tzu (Daoism) as ours too because fuck statists to be honest.
Connor Morris
My compound belongs to me, buddy. Bought and paid for. Wanna see the receipt on those drones?
Kevin Price
>capitalism is the same as communism in terms of incentive to act unagressively Why nazis don't align with us is beyond me. Ancap means a free market where racists can discriminate as much as they want, what's the problem?
Aiden Wilson
Buy or no buy, it doesn't matter. Can you defend it? Then it's yours. Can you take it? then it's yours
Connor Rogers
> people realizing that you are stronger in a group than alone Cooperation & community do not require collectivism. See mutual aid societies, charity, business, division of labour, trade etc. No one has to "afford a private army by yourself".
Ryder Moore
>implying Let me answer both of your questions. Antifa/cuckunism/progressivism/etc is all equally spooky. I am very far from antifa/communist.
Next, I (and presumably that user) don't believe in arbitrary property, which is not the same as property. Obviously property exists, it's whatever I can control. If you can't defend your property, then it is not your property, it is mine. Therefore, if your "property" is yours simply because you claim it is, it isn't really yours. Simpler than the NAP, my guy.
Jacob Ramirez
Good suggestions, not ancap but I also recommend Niall Ferguson's Ascent Of Money for a historical perspective on currency (a little lefty anarchistic but overall pretty good).
Because these faggots are memeflaggers? I miss the old days of Sup Forums and the Ancap-NATSOC alliance but unfortunately there's so many sliders and new fags that such things are impossible.
Noah Rogers
Why do you think "it's all about currency"? Nobody else thinks money is that important. Economists generally think "money is neutral in the long run". In the long run, the national income is determined by the available technology, capital and labor. Austrians are the only I've seen who are retarded enough to think "money determined the rise and fall of civilizations".
Connor James
Ok, so Ancaps have this thing called the NAP which you don't believe exists but nevertheless.... here comes the circular reasoning !
Owen Morgan
Reminds me of how FEMA use the Waffle House Index
Hunter Anderson
I don't really care. My interest is in labor economic and trade theory. We don't really care about money. Maybe I would be receptive to ideas about alternative currencies if Austrians didn't rave about money like retards at every situation.
Kayden Jackson
I don't think you are correct. I think you have not learned to think for yourself there, bud. It's all about currency, always has been about currency, and always will be about currency. Good luck !
John Thomas
NAP is in the eyes of the beholder. Look at my wife wrong? You get a fist. Misgender someone? you get a taser and a beating. Wear something funny looking? You get a bullet in the back of your head by some offended stranger
Jace Flores
>Money is more important the available technology and supply of labor & capital underlying the economy
Brody Robinson
"We" bud, you're an undergraduate. I suggest "you" care about currency unless you want to be poor as shit in the coming decades. Back in 2003 I used to do some research work in "signalling theory". Who gives a shit about "labour theory" as some islanded division of theoretical economics? None of that is going to matter as automation totally takes over, you fucking scrub.
I think you're getting a bit metaphysical about the NAP, pal. We Ancaps love the memes, but you are a bit lacking in your understanding.
Ian Powell
Wrong. My right to private property is enforced with the threat of death. I have plenty of equipment that can facilitate your death. >Come and get it.
Lincoln Young
lel, not everyone is you. Not everyone will automatically follow your personal autistic NAP definition
Brayden Morris
It sure is! Although cryptocurrencies are a nice example of a technological solution to a complicated value storage problem. Just take a look at how BTC has eclipsed USD. Get used to it, dude.
Isaiah Sullivan
Ok, so whoever has better equipment gets your property? sounds fun
I hope you really do have the best weaponry. I hope you aren't assassinated by someone from 200 meters away, or slipped a poison tab in your drink.
Caleb Nguyen
I'm in grad school, bro. Funny you did research on signalling, which came from neoclassical economics, not Austrian theory.
Caleb Campbell
another ad hominem, oh boy you sure are good at economics. You are admittedly ignorant about the history of currency so why not go check that out first? Sure is summer in here.
Noah Adams
what is some good /lrg/ literature?
i want to read more and be informed rather than lurking these threads. already read a lot of individualist philosophy, would be interested in more.
Carson Reyes
>Who says? How is this defined? Who decides? What's to stop people approving under the guise of "the good" and rejecting legit business under the guise of "against the public good" this shit has been abused through all of human history. The government. It says in the thing. The government. People in the NatSoc government didn't fuck it up so I think we can manage. >I just wonder if its an authoritarian order, how can this be maintained or assured or even set up in the first place compared to what people would actually set up It is what is says it is, Hitler did what he said he was going to do. and the workers, the nation, and society prospered. Things that harm one generally harm the others. >I say that two entities engaging in consented transactions without the need for third party arbitration, subject only to local/effective market pressures (ie: availability of resources, etc) is a good thing that should not be inhibited by additional tiers of meddling by supposed governmental entities. That's all well and good, but shit like monopolies and price fixing WILL happen if you don't do shit to stop it. You people say "people are greedy and will act on it, thus government cannot be trusted" but completely ignore how not all corporations are run by saints, and thus they will plot together, as they are doing now. The early U.S is a perfect example of how minarchism is shit with the Articles of Confederation. States were fighting each other over profits and nothing could get done. >Cooperation & community do not require collectivism. But they require that you assist the group, and if the group wants everyone to chip in for shit, then you aren't being cooperative. >Ancap means a free market where racists can discriminate as much as they want, what's the problem? Yes, but it also assumes that Jews won't get together and do the same shit they've been doing for centuries. There is no self defense mechanism.
Ryan Murphy
Nazbol >>>>Jewish crapitlism + muh rights
Thomas Turner
I know more about economics than you. For example, did you know that there is an economy in human genes? If your genes aren't suitable to the economy, you will get bred out by people who compete more successfully. Simple supply and demand.
That's why the working class is under so much pressure these days, they are being outcompeted by mechanical labor
Isaac Allen
Ancap is a ridiculous utopian fantasy. You will fall because you have no understanding of human nature.
Parker Peterson
Yeah, so I have experience in non-Austrian economics back when I was in university. What do you know outside of your echo-chamber? Congrats for grad school. Hope you actually do something with it.
We agree on many points, you know.
Cooper Foster
Weird that Austrians are so careless about drawing conclusions from historical evidence. Aren't you guys the ones who claim that the study of economics should be purely theoretical?
Andrew Cooper
>libertarian >right anons... I....
Samuel Ortiz
>I know more about economics than you. HAHAHAHAHA have 1000 fun bucks, faggot
oh jeez, mister internet man, sure doesn't look like it from your bullshit posting. Oh geez, I better be worried about your misusage of wikipedia entries or I might really be in trouble
William Adams
I love the state. Taxes help keep shit going, like roads. We need more regulation for the big tech conglomerate.
Cameron Allen
Kill yourself (((bolshevic))) subhuman.
Angel Wilson
What's some stuff you've already read & what stuff did you enjoy? What areas are you interested in?
That seems like way too much trust in the government for my liking, specially considering how much Hitler was betrayed and how on the ground level people wiht positions of power did what the fuck they wanted. Doesn't calm my fears of authoritarians in practice one bit. I don't trust the people implementing it, I don't trust the planners, decision makers & the people with given the power.
John Scott
I am not sure, but considering how autistically you faggots seem to pick apart everything we say without forwarding a single point is astounding. It's like talking to a poorly written chatbot !
Brandon Sanders
Austrians are more guilty of staying inside a thought bubble than anybody else. You dismissed me as Keynesian for no reason at all. That's the Austrian response to any challenges to their ideas.
Henry Gonzalez
b-but muh natrual rights
reeeeee nooooo stop
non whites shouldn't exist. Get out faggot even Hitler didn't want that.
Jewish capitalists are going to burn Along with their Jewish masters
Camden Sullivan
That "roads" shit is a bunch of garbage. Taxes don't even pay the principle on the international monetary loans the states have. You guys are fucked if you don't solve your domestic solvency issues!
more goddamned words and no arguments. You faggots eat semen on toast or something?
Nolan Powell
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Wyatt Moore
According to prominent Jewish economists of the last century, you are far right if you want your economy free to be exploited and subverted by foreigners and Jews.
Did you even read the fucking quote? Bolshevism is literal Judaism you dumb nigger.