I want to thank whichever user called me out on being a faggot for dismissing Shotaro Ishinomori's artwork as a bad Tezuka copy based on the Kikaider manga, where the art was actually credited to his assistants. The guy was really good and his actual manga-making skill is definitely underrated.
I'd love to read Banchou Wakusei, but since that one's not translated I'm reading Cyborg 009 as it's one of those super-popular franchises I never paid attention to in the past and it kicks ass so far.
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the paneling in this manga...
...is really...
...fucking...
...good.
Also, Ishinomori's 60s writing was less redundant than Tezuka's. 009 doesn't monologue needlessly like Astro Boy does all the time.
I really love Tezuka and Astro Boy but those who call him a "literary master" are dumb. His ideas & visual execution were great fun but the way his monologuing, dialogue & narration were worded was by far the worst element of all his work. He had trouble just letting a drawing speak for itself.
Some of these panel layouts feel really ahead of their time. I could see something like this in a modern fighting shonen easily.
Banchou Wakusei looks so awesome I want someone to pick it up and translate it
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Also Henshin Ninja Arashi looks cool as fuck and shows Ishinomori was pretty versatile
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So yeah I'm sorry for every instance of me ignorantly bad mouthing this guy lying in the archives. He was cool
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There are too many stand-out pages to post in his manga.
He liked doing this multiplication effect a lot in action scenes.
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everything about this page is giving me chills, what talent and vision
I actually think he was better than Tezuka at doing both super-cartoony art and more serious looking stuff. Henshin Ninja Arashi is very different when you compare it to Banchou or Cyborg but it's also very well done.
Meanwhile I think Tezuka's cartoony stuff is awesome, but MW which is his least cartoony manga that I've read looked really fucking bland. I think he realized he was bad at downplayed & more realistic stuff because Adolf was one of his last seinen works and it had lots of exaggerated expressions, poses etc. Ode to Kirihito also works for the same reason, the story is serious but the art is fun and stylized.
This character IMO summarizes everything artistically wrong with MW. It feels like Tezuka trying to draw one of his usual screw-nosed character in a more 'serious' way and just ends up looking stupid, not in a charming fun Astro Boy way but in a bad way.
Meanwhile in Adolf he stopped lying to himself and got back to what he was actually good at drawing
bumping my dead gay thread one last time
>He had trouble just letting a drawing speak for itself.
Not in Black Jack he didn't.
Probably I really cliche answer but I'm a big fan of Go Nagai
I own a bilingual edition of Vol 1 of Devilman and wish I could find the rest (apparently rare)
Black Jack is far better about it but even that one has redundant moments. You're right though, there are more subtle moments. For example here, if this were 60s Tezuka Jack would be saying "OH NO I WANTED TO SAVE THIS MAN'S LIFE TO HAVE A TRUE RIVAL BUT HE HAS LOST HIS FINGERS AND CAN NOT PERFORM SURGERY ANYMORE. THAT MAKES ME A SAD PERSON."
Devilman was my first 70s manga and yeah it's good stuff. I wish Violence Jack got fully translated though; the OVAs are shit but the manga is a far better follow-up to it than Devilman Lady and has some fantastic moments.
Or this moment. One of my favorite Tezuka chapter endings.
Here's a fun story about a 16-17 year old Ishinomori from Tezuka.
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And some of teenage Ishinomori's hatched drawings from that chapter.
it's pretty observantly different from the way Tezuka drew
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Check out Sabu and Ichi when you can. The panelling in that is quite something. The Way of Ryu also has some fantastic artwork.
Ishinomori was actually the first to make use of silent panels in manga. The manga considered his first masterpiece is called Ryujin Numa and it's also translated. That and Fantasy World Jun reportedly made Tezuka jealous at the time. Tezuka and Ishinomori were friends, but eventually Tezuka became more and more bitter towards him, especially during his "depression" era a few years before Black Jack. Tezuka later apologised for everything he has done and they kept in good terms up to the day he died. If you're interested in learning more about Ishinomori, I recommend reading this article:
forestofstone.tumblr.com
Old is best
Bump
I knew Tezuka shat on him but I didn't know he apologized; that's pretty nice of him.
Some of Tezuka's controversial criticism was spot on (Otomo peaked with Akira and hasn't done anything iconic since then) but Ishinomori was a great guy with a huge legacy.
I'm totally new to his work (literally a month or so ago an user called me out on being wrong about him) so thanks for the recs.
The bizarre thing is that long ago, around 2007, I saw some Cyborg 009 scans on Sup Forums and thought it looked cool but back then they weren't available online for free. And I also read the little story at the end of Kamen Rider Zo about what a great, classically-trained artist Ishinomori was. But for whatever reason I forgot about both and kept on judging by that mediocre assistant art.
Just skimming through these recs I'm realizing more and more how versatile this guy was.
ded thread
I wish there was a dedicated TL for older stuff, mainly the Garo magazine that's being scanned now by that user.
And yeah, he used silent pages really well.
JUN was pretty masturbatory to be honest. Sure, some interesting panelling, but I don't really blame Tezuka.
The entire thing wrong with MW is Tezuka trying to push himself through a square hole, not his characters.
Happyscans (regardless of what kind of job they do) still translates a lot of it.
>peaked with Akira
Don't make me laugh. Akira wasn't the peak of anything. Akira was the peak of pandering to the masses. Only the west saw a series worth jacking off over. It has none of the hallmarks of his dry humour that makes him actually famous.
>humour
That and his attention to realism.
I'm not bothered by Jun's brand of artsiness at all but so far the scanlation is really fucking shitty.
But I guess it's fine since so much of it is totally wordless.
Oh and
>JUN was pretty masturbatory to be honest. Sure, some interesting panelling, but I don't really blame Tezuka.
As much as I love the guy, Tezuka unironically called Koji Nanke "Japan's greatest living animator". He doesn't really get to shit on Ishinomori for being wanky & artsy.
Will 009 scans ever be finished?
this page owns
>Ochanomizu pulling a gun on Astro
Jesus. Seems a bit out of character for him, he really doesn't do things that drastically.
I know I've said this a million times ITT but god damn was Ishinomori versatile.
is that netero and the dark continent
that looks like a reality marble
I guess you could say Jun is pretentious wannabe-deep shit or whatever and make some totally accurate criticisms in the process, but it manages to create some great atmosphere.
good page but fuck the translator's note shit
crap I meant to post this instead
I love the stylistic variety in Jun so much
One last bump before going to sleep to say that I really like the way he drew the lizards here
I really like Shimamoto Kazuhiko's works. Wouldn't call them technical masterpieces, but they're enjoyable in their own right. Not as old as the rest of the stuff in this thread, though.
Fuck it, I'm at the computer again god DAMMIT.
I want to say another thing: while there are plenty of valid criticisms to be thrown at 'deep, poetic, surreal' works like Jun, I think part of it may have been butthurt from Tezuka. Butthurt that Ishinomori beat him at non-redundant writing, in both the "surreal artsy work" category AND the "robot fighting" category. He could be subtle in both his mainstream works and the 'out there' stuff.
Even as far as Adolf, which I thought was a good manga with great art (both serious and cartoony) and a great message of "reality is too complicated for an 'eternal victim' and 'eternal oppressor' dichotomy", Tezuka still suffered from the same redundancy issues.
So as a man who's always had this flaw, I could imagine Tezuka being bothered that Ishinomori could get across so much atmosphere and emotion through pure imagery. And when he dedicates an ENTIRE MANGA to just that, he may have reached peak jealousy.
Once again I'm not saying "don't criticize Jun", but I think those that say jealousy played a part might have a point.
For the record I love both Tezuka and Ishinomori. Tezuka was a smug ass, but his assholery reminds me of my assholery so I deal with it easier.
Since you brought him up, here's the pages I mentioned from the extra story in the Kamen Rider Zo manga about Ishinomori.
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>JUN was pretty masturbatory to be honest. Sure, some interesting panelling, but I don't really blame Tezuka.
I would not blame Tezuka if he was not doing the exact same masturbatory shit. Have you ever watched his experimental films? Or his avant-garde manga? Tezuka was much worse at it. He was indeed jealous, his reason for disliking it is because he wish he could have done it himself not because he thought it was pretentious. That was what Tezuka was aiming for at the time.
Happy Scans/Hokuto no Gun seems to have not done anything Ishinomori in years. It's a mystery right now if they will ever get back at it. I wish to see the rest of the Ryu trilogy(which includes Banchou Wakusei) one day.
Which avant-garde manga are you talking about? Because as far as he's concerned, his 'avant-garde' is effectively mainstream anyways.
Personally, I think his jealousy towards Otomo is much more well-founded. Otomo criticized Tezuka for being outdated and outmoded. If there was anyone he was to be jealous of, it was his contemporaries, not those he worked with.
I think a lot of people would disagree with you on his animation. It is an entire shitfest, but in a way much more detached than his manga, he was going it alone. I don't think he succeeded at it, but I don't think that little was learnt in his time making them.
If there was anything Tezuka was guilty of, I think it would be pride, not jealousy.
In my mind, part of the reason JUN comes off so poorly is not because the of the imagery, but because of the text.
Is the art this good all the way trough?
This is one of Shimamoto's wacky zany mangaka stories, sure, but I have no reason to believe the part about the teenage Ishinomori sketches was not based on fact.
Given the quality and solidity of his 1955 Astro Boy drawings back when he was only 16 or 17, it's obvious the man was classically trained and had already done life drawing, studied perspective etc, and I would not be surprised if the amazing detailed life drawings they showed were ACTUALLY Ishinomori's teenage drawings.
Basically people who think the cartooniness of Cyborg 009 or Banchou Wakusei was because he couldn't draw anything more solid and realistic and detailed are wrong and dumb.
sadly I actually had a similar accusation at first, that he just learned to draw from Tezuka and lacked proper artistic training. That was obviously complete and utter bullshit too and I'm glad I got called out and lost the argument because I got some kick-ass, inspiring manga out of it. I mean, looking at Ishinomori's stuff actually makes me want to draw myself more and that's the best possible effect a manga can have on me.
tl;dr MALtier people who look at the Cyborg 009 manga and think "lol this guy couldn't draw back then" are wrong as fuck and the dude had high-level understanding of art before he even became 18.
I dunno, an user posted them from some pay-to-read japanese site and refused to offer anything else
I wish he just would have toned down the bug eyes.
I think it's unfair to judge the writing based on a shit scanlation. Maybe it was written beautifully in the original; how can you know?
Cleopatra is stupid and ugly but 1001 Nights has some genuinely really good scenes in it (don't watch it if you get triggered by tezuka's furry transformation fetish). It's also not as "out there" as Jun at all and was a success.
I have only checked out Blazing Transfer Student by him and wasn't a fan of anything but the comedy, it can be very funny, it's a shame it doesn't focus on that instead of all the mindless and dull action.
Same thing with Miyashita Akira, great comedy but instead focuses on the generic battles, I assume they weren't as generic at the time but still, you get what I'm saying.
Keep the thread going and I might post at least up to the end of chapter 1.
Except a majority of the text being effectively a meaningless diatribe. I don't think a translator has anything to do with that.
>triggered
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry here.
009's eyes bothered me too at first, but now I think they're great; it makes him look creepy and shocked at the same time, and that's perfectly fitting for a super destructive human weapon that doesn't want to be a super destructive human weapon.
I used it ironically (comparing seeing furry fanservice to post-war or rape trauma); Sup Forums culture hasn't gotten THAT retarded yet
The lower right here is such a weird fucking face, and I think it was totally intentional; he's meant to look freaky and weird and 'off' in that drawing.
oh and
>Except a majority of the text being effectively a meaningless diatribe
Even something beaningless can be beautiful if it is worded in a particularly poetic and impressive way.
I figured as much. The fact that words which used to make complete sense as well as be innocuous, can no longer be the case makes me wonder what sort of limited vocabulary this place stands to have with everything taboo.
That may be the case, but it's more a question of relevance.
Shitstorming aside, can we agree that Tezuka and Ishinomori both did their fair share of cool shit throughout their lives?
What this fair share represents doesn't matter because it varies from person to person and taste exists, but I mean in general.
Honestly, the whole thing seems to be a stream-of-consciousness work where "relevance" doesn't play much of a part. Jun reminds me of the weird nights when I overdose on sleeping pills and experience a weird half-awake dream-like state where ideas just go in and out of my head chaotically. Ishinomori managed to put that feeling on paper and that's pretty cool.
Please post it. I'll probably have to go to sleep soon so I won't be able to OP-bump anymore. I'll try to direct some oldschool manga friends to it to keep it alive instead.
I REALLY want to see more of this, it's like early Cyborg 009's cartooniness but totally refined in the 70s.
You're the best, user
sent me
Ok, I skipped some pages at first so I'm posting the whole thing again. So this will be at least the complete first chapter.
you are awesome, thank you
People can argue without it being a shitstorm.
I can agree they both did some pretty cool shit. The way I see it, it can even be a frame of mind that influences how you receive a series. I was trying read Sabu to Ichi, and I just couldn't do it then because I didn't feel like I'd enjoy it right at that moment. I will come back to it, but I haven't decided when that should be.
Chronically life, you can say that a diary has many similar analogs. For a lot of people, the greatest value and meaning to a diary is kept to oneself. Sharing it can have little meaning to others, or only a select few. It's probably much the same reason that a number of auto-biographies seem self-important.
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*Chronicling
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Hokuto no Gun might not ever get back to it at this rate. There was a Tumblr user translating, yeah I know, Tumblr. But everything with Ishinomori has kind of been dead on that platform so it's something that isn't to be.
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>was trying read Sabu to Ichi, and I just couldn't do it then because I didn't feel like I'd enjoy it right at that moment
This happened to me too but eventually it turned into full-blown depression where it's like that with everything 99% of the time so eh
but getting into Tezuka and Ishinomori did give me some moments of inspiration and positivity
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