And to this day I don't understand their argument. We are not talking about some small town in the middle of Spain asking for an Indy ref. We are talking about an area with a population close to 10 million, with the people there having a different language and the area is clearly market as a separate land.
What possible interest could there be to deny the people there to make a democratic majority decision? What I do understand is campaigning for a "better together" vote like in Scotland, but I just cannot understand why Spanish people outside of Catalonia don't even want them to hold a vote. Is Spain not into democracy?
The government needs something to get the rural voters riled up since that's how they get elected.
Lucas Thomas
>Create a big society that occupies a certain mass of land >Work together, everybody contributing towards the national interest through taxes and what not >Some people that happen to be in a certain portion of that land want to throw away all the collective effort to claim that land that belongs to the nation for theirselves >Sets a dangerous precedent for the rest of the country
That's probably their argument. I don't mind though. I don't think it's the solution either but if they want to make a referendum and talk about it fairly I wouldn't object. Although I'm more keen on a national reform than just single out regions overtime.
Colton Richardson
>we should let 3-4 million people break a country inhabited by 47 millions just because they want to You germans and your cuck infected brain make me sick.
Sebastian Hernandez
Which government?
I am pretty sure all polls show the yes vote will win massively... if they manage to hold the ref.
Hudson Green
What is democracy if not the will of the people?
Logan Myers
I wish they would actually present an argument like that. The government isn't even trying to say why it's good to be in Spain. PP is fucking retarded and we need to get rid of it Spanish government You can see the general response you'll get here though. It's a tyranny of the majority logic they use to convince people they are bad for wanting something they don't like.
David Brown
>What is democracy if not the will of the people? The vast majority of the spanish population doesn't want an independent Catalonia. Does that count as "the will of the people" to you?
Brandon Martin
Spain has huge unemployment and welfare state. Catalonia as I understand it is economically well off.
Who will pay for the naps if not then??
Ethan King
Haha your irrelevant tinpot shithole is falling apart.
The fucking spanish. Not even once.
Hunter Green
If I want to buy a pool table for my home, who should be voting on it? My family, or the whole neighborhood?
Has everyone in the EU voted on Brexit or just the U.K.? same with Scotland.
It is always the people who want independence who vote, never the larger entity which remains back.
Grayson Wood
Yeah it is, and I'm caught in it.
Cameron Barnes
>comparing a privately owned house and a union of states with a single sovereign state I don't quite understand what you're trying to do with this (trolling maybe?), but please feel free too use a better argument next time other than shitty comparisons.
Matthew Bennett
Because we have a law and they have to follow it.
Do you want the independence? Ok, get the support of the 2/3 of the Parlament and the Senate and make a referendum in Spain, win it and get the same support in the Parlament and Senate, then change the art 2 of the Constitution and make the referendum.
In democratic states you have to follow the law democratically chosen by the population.
Daniel Carter
While I feel bad for you as an individual, the combination of my cultural upbringing, your country's general political response to the Brexit ref, and hearing your dumbshit politicians whining about Gibraltar to cover their own ineptitude every couple of years has left me with absolutely 0 fucks to give about your country as a whole.
This sort of response is why the Yanks hang on to their arms so dearly. When your government deploys military police to stop you having votes it doesn't want you to have. It's time to shoot them.
Owen Smith
The problem, Catalonia is not only their, if of EVERY Spaniard since it has been part of Spain since the unification of the crown of Aragon and Castillie into Spain, and we have fought and pay for this land.
It is rightfully ours, of every Spaniard.
If you want to become independent of your parents you moove to another hause, not steal them a room.
This is the same. Do you want to steal us a piece of our Spain? Ok, the fight for it, you thief.
Ryder Bennett
So, I understand you are going to let Scotland and Northem Ireland to go away if they want after the brexit.
You know, they want to stay in the EU and you cannot go against that people will.
Why should I obey the law if a buch of catalans dont? I dont want to pay taxes, and I have the same right to disobey the law than them.
Sebastian Powell
>Spain >democracy
nice joke :^)
Sebastian Harris
If Scotland and Northern Ireland want to go, they can go.
My position on their indy ref talk is that I'd prefer it if they stayed in the UK, since we're a family and I'd rather if we all stuck together. But if they really want to leave, that's up to them, and they are expensive and difficult to keep around anyway.
I don't care about the expense or the difficulty. I'll happily keep paying for Scotlands free university and shit forever, because they're our bros, if they want to leave that's ok too.
Still, we gave the Scots a referendum, and they voted to stay. They know they're not getting another one until after Brexit, by which time the Germans have already said they'll have to apply and wait for the EU like everyone else. So I think they'll probably stick around.
The major difference here is that Catalonia is keeping your country afloat economically. Without it, you'll float about as well as the Armada did after Sir Drake was done with them.
Zachary Butler
Would you forgive the Irish and let them back if they wanted?
Michael Scott
It sets precedence for them to blackmail the rest of Spain every couple years with holding another neverendum if their demands are not met
Bentley Clark
all you know is false. end of story
Logan Sullivan
Democracy is the organization of people under the authority of the state. It does not emanate independently.
If you want to create a new state, there is no "democratic" way to it that excludes the state under which your democracy operates.
At least you should have the intellectual thresholdn to imagine that democratic means at least all the population of the "democratic country".
> oh, me and my two village cousins want our own independent Pambolonia. Our referendonium was 100% independence, between me, my 1st cousin and his retarted brother. > REEEEEEE why Espagna is so undemocratica
Chase Moore
What would you do if the Muslims in NRW wanted independence and their own caliphate? Would you let them take away a part of your country?
Adrian Long
I can try to provide legal arguments if you want. Technically the constitution is in conflict with itself thanks to the constitutionality of signed treaties which have a lot of shit about the rights of minorities. The constitution also establishes the concept of spanish nationality, which is composed of other nations, the nation of nations idea. So the constitutionality of separatism can actually be discussed due to careless lawmaking really.
But who is the people? Are some nations more valid than others?
That's PP being its own retarded self though. And the media is government controlled so I wouldn't trust them much.
Tyler Torres
Yes.
Not that such a thing would ever happen. Ireland is an island, and islands breed highly independant, stubborn people. Plus they haven't quite forgiven the English for all the famines, theft and general subjugation. Which is something quite a lot of Brits can relate to.
Joshua Miller
if they were a majority of the population, why not?
Grayson Cruz
This may surprise you since you're german and all but countries usually want to keep existing.
Xavier Johnson
Isn't that the same argument that was made by people against scottish independence? And later Brexit.
Lincoln Collins
there is about as much of that happening as sweden deporting an afghan rapist
Sebastian Morgan
>if they were a majority of the population, why not? Spoken like a true Moor rapebaby with inherited Caliphate PTSD
Thomas Parker
>If you want to become independent of your parents you moove to another hause, not steal them a room. This is a really shitty and biased analogy, it doesn't work because the kids are net receivers, if the kids are paying for most of the house anyway the parents are the ones that end up leaving (as it happened traditionally in rural houses). I'm obviously not saying that Spaniards should leave Spain that's retarded, but it is how retarded this whole analogy of yours is. A more appropriate one would be the division of a subgroup inside a company while still keeping their assets and debts, which does happen regularly.
Carson Jones
Catalonia has the greatest debt of every spanish region, they are literally bankrupt.
They are susteined by the governemnt who is paying their debt (pic related).
It is not matter of money, it is matter of a land to belong to us and some people who want to stole it (Spain is not an union like you and Scotland), and breaking a law democratically voted by the Spaniards (the Constitution)
Isaiah Morales
>PTSD but there is nothing traumatic about glorious Al-Andalus :^)
William Edwards
The whole country who voted it, Catalonia include.
You can go anywhere and found any nation, not steal land to other people to create your own land.
Christian Hughes
And both of them are crying for another referendum
Brandon Lee
Constitutional democracy eastern commie Kraut.+Catalonian is not a real nationality anyways. If they ever get free they will most likely develop the "WE WUZ", or as we call it here "the Macedonian/Ukrainian" syndrome.
Thomas Hernandez
It's the richest part of the nation and the poor fucks don't want their welfare checks cut so they're trying to force them into staying. Yes? And it's more than 3-4mil. Only failures like the Soviet Union have to force people into living there.
Wyatt Edwards
So, if it is a family where everyone contribute, then you have the right to steal your room?
Levi Richardson
They can always go to Finland and get a chunk of your land through democracy
Angel Lee
I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to the last few thousand years of European history or not, but stealing other peoples land to create more of our land is kind of our thing.
Cameron Evans
Nobody in Finland wants to break off and start their own country because they realize they're better off as part of Finland. That's how it should be, handling your nation well enough where people don't want to break off because it wouldn't benefit them. If you can't do that then your country has failed and it has no right telling others what to do with the land they inhabit.
Asher Murphy
Nope, as I've already said in that case one of the sons would inherit the house. Which is why that analogy doesn't work.
Anthony Rogers
I don't really know about the Scottish, since I haven't seen the fish woman on TV for like, a whole week (probably a new record).
Britain on the whole though, is not really interested in another referendum. Most voters seem to be holding the position of "OK, so we voted, can we just stop pissing around talking about it and just get it over with already."
Then you can accept 3 million catalans, let them all settle in and then let them vote for the independence of one your regions, since they want to use their language
Grayson Hall
Finns have ethnic solidarity. This what salty Catalonians lack. They should be the ones happy to pay extra into the coffers of the Spanish state, as it benefits the poor rural population in Extramadura etc. But they wont. They are basically the labour aristocracy, unwilling to share their wealth with the rest of the proles. Marx would be rolling in his grave if he knew these selfish petit bourgeois Catacucks were trying to get away with murder.
Lincoln Sanchez
Spain is a land who belong to every Spaniard and every Spaniard pay for it (taxes).
So, if you make Catalonia another country you have stolen that land to us.
Colton White
We have the right to tell them what to do because we have an army, police and court system, and we are able to enforce our laws whether they want it or not. That's how countries work, everything else is just naive idealism.
Anthony Nelson
Leaving Spain is a mistake and you don't let bros make mistakes. Referendums are stupid, Brexit is stupid. Modern democracies are representative, it is what works.
Catalonians are not a minority. The Constitution was made in order to grant self governance to some territories and it does. It's good as it is. You are ok as a self governed nation and a free individual.
Ian Barnes
Spain, the Catalans are your problem, stop trying to push them onto Finland. Who I'm sure is just trying to get drunk and do rally racing in peace.
All the more reason for them to leave. Communism is for faggots.
Ian Diaz
They already have their own land. Just because you happened to be born during a time when that land was also governed by the Spanish government doesn't mean it belongs to that state or that Catalonia being a part of Spain is some set in stone thing and the "correct way".
It's like the UK breaking out of EU. Every other EU nation was against it, but it's their land so it's their decision. We can't say "the majority of EU is against it so you can't leave". It's a choice the Catalonians make, people outside Catalonia have no say.
John Campbell
And also fighting for it (war)
Gavin Nguyen
>Finns have ethnic solidarity. Åland is very different from the ethnicity of Finland as a whole, but they don't want independence because being part of Finland is economically more benefitial than having to handle all the foreign politics etc. that would come with an independent nation. Obviously Catalans don't feel the same way.
Liam Stewart
It is not even the same entity (a wconomical union vs a country), it is an absurd comparation.
The EU no even had a Constitution.
William Baker
If it's our problem, then don't interfere when we try to solve it It is our land too. Tell that to the other half of the catalan population that don't want the independence
Logan Rodriguez
You kind of have to let them make their own mistakes mate. You recognised them as a country within a country in your own Constitution, and now they want to take their distinct national identity and go play by themselves.
If you don't let them make their mistakes you could very well end up with an Ireland on your hands.
You do not want an Ireland. I repeat. YOU DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WANT TO MAKE THE MISTAKE THAT WE MADE
Anthony Russell
Para mi, no siendo español, es como si una marciana viniera a la tierra y me dijera que ella no se siente como una marciana.
Isaiah Brooks
That's not "a right" that's practice. I'm not saying you physically cannot force them into staying, obviously you can. It goes against everything western democracies stand for, but you can. Nobody's saying it's physically impossible, just that you shouldn't.
Brandon Wood
Well it was voted by 68% of the population and a lot of them are dead or dying now not to mention the population boom. It's not stealing if it's Catalan land in the first place though. And in case you try to deny it, pic related. Scottish independence lost all support though didn't it? Isn't that due to the lack of payments by Spain in the first place? I could be wrong I never paid attention to that stuff.
Jackson Evans
Obviously it's not the same thing, it's just a recent example. Just because you start a government and claim to control all the lands from here to mars doesn't mean people who actually inhabit those lands have lost all their rights to individual choice. >Tell that to the other half Welcome to democracy. That's why there's a vote.
Hudson Reyes
Please do it.....I wish to see another commie country to fail. Catalonians are annoying.....be free my childs
Nathaniel Clark
We're not interfering, we're shitposting on a mongolian basket-weaving blogosphere.
Speech is not action.
Isaiah Phillips
>Catalonians are not a minority. Are they not an ethnic minority?
Chase Hall
>You recognised them as a country within a country in your own Constitution You got tricked by their propaganda and their bullshit interpretation of our Constitution. It recognises autonomous regions, not countries, but it also states that Spain is indivisible
Landon Davis
Catalonia represents 25% of the social security deficit and has required emergency founds from Madrid several times in the last couple of days. Any economic advantage will be wipe out once they exit the euro and eu. Do it faggots!!!
Zachary Price
>Are they not an ethnic minority? They'll soon be one if they keep their borders wide open >inb4 some catacuck claims he is culturally and ethnically more related to a Pakistani Wahhabi goatmurdering child raping "refugee", than the perfidious Castillian
>La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. >nacionalidades >Nación española, patria común Please read the damn constitution.
Wyatt Diaz
INDIVISIBLE That selective reading
Cooper Cox
Who cares Spain is right now a commie, muzzie and nigger infested shithole.
Thomas Bell
"Rights" are a social construct enforced by the government, not some magical ideas given to us by the heavens. In Spain there is no right to self-determination, therefore Catalans don't have such right.
>that reading comprehension Patria común E I N D I V I S I B L E D E T O D O S L O S E S P A Ñ O L E S
Jose Ramirez
No shit, you're the one who picked the word "right" >enforced by the government These days they're more enforced by international treaties between governments, but I understand your point.
Just because you pass some law doesn't make that the god's truth either. Denying their right to independence because "we didn't write that law for the government you're trying to leave" it's utter non-sense. If the Spanish government blocks this election I feel Spain should be removed from the UN, the EU and all other trade agreements. Because like you said they're not magical ideas, they're agreements between people and there's a price you pay for breaking them.
What you're saying is like saying the United States has the right to annex all of Spain, beause they have a big enough military to do so, which they do.
Caleb Ortiz
What you have said is so fucked up in every possible sense of the word, that I think I'm going to need an American to tell me what the proper response is.
Nathan Peterson
No wonder they call you mongols
Dominic Miller
But it's still recognizing countries. I'm not even questioning the indivisibility of it. this is the official english translation of it >The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to selfgovernment of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all. Well fuck. >nationalities You're a one trick pony.
Thomas Lee
Well I mean, "I have the bigger stick, so I'll do whatever the fuck I want" is probably the oldest and dearest of all human traditions.
Joshua Gonzalez
>Referendums are stupid, Brexit is stupid. >Modern democracies are representative, it is what works.
The majority of elected representatives should be in favor of independence first. (not sure if that's the case in Catalonia?) But before cutting the knot on a big decision like this they should hold a referendum to make sure they do what the people want.
What is stupid is a party opposing Brexit holding a referendum gambling that the people will vote no. That was just retarded opportunism.
Adrian Peterson
Very true and it's still what everything boils down to, but because we wanted to stop armies rolling over Europe whenever there was a dispute we created a system of international relations and agreements with common values as an incentive to discourage use of force. It's pointless to argue which has the biggest army, Spain or Catalonia, because no one has any doubts about who would win. That's why all discussions on the subject are automatically about justifying the actions. Get a job so you won't have to rely on Catalonian handouts, Pablo.
Zachary Rivera
>If the Spanish government blocks this election I feel Spain should be removed from the UN, the EU and all other trade agreements. The Spanish government would not be doing this if they did not have the backing of the EU, which is the only supranational institution with any real power in Europe. The UN is basically just a bunch of cucks pretending to have power while the US, China, Russia and to a lesser extent the EU do whatever the fuck they want. It is likely that the US and China support Spain in this matter too, because they do not want the EU to experience any real economic problems. The EU is unstable enough, and highly indebted. A secession could easily lead to a new debt crisis in southern Europe
Joseph Nguyen
Retarded opportunism is basically the guiding principle of the Conservative Party.
Usually it works too. This time, not so much.
Angel Walker
Catalonians are commies. We do not want a Sweden 2.0 in Iberia
Dylan Wright
They're still in power so they should be happy.
Xavier Bennett
I know and it is sad if/when EU will side with Spain because it exposes their own hypocrisy. The same people who are all up in arms about people's right to self-governance when the issue takes place in Asia or Africa suddenly switch sides when it's in their front yard.
That's why I said "I feel Spain should be removed" not "I believe Spain will be removed".
Dominic Gray
France is blocking Brittany from it's representation.
Germany is blocking Bavaria from it's representation
The EU itself is blocking Belgium from breaking in half like it clearly wants to.
It's almost like trying to force a continent full of people that have spent thousands of years slaughtering each other to work together, was a bad idea.
David Morales
Catalans are commie faggots. Spanish people are our fashy bros.
Jeremiah Richardson
>brexit won't win >trump won't win WEW
Robert Allen
Send the women to me. Oh I do so love Spanish ass.
Anthony Anderson
Respectfully, human rights are neither earned nor subordinate to politics: they are natural, not gifts of law. There is a simple majority for independence, and an absolute majority for the referendum.
Julian James
The majority of seats were, but not the majority of votes, where the winner takes extra seats The problem I see with these kind of referendums is that there are no drawbacks for the pro independence stance to lose a dozen times, they can keep calling for referendums every other year. But once they manage to get to 50.1%, that one would not be repeated ever again, which totally screws the other 49.9% of the voters.
And this is without mentioning the amount of money wasted and embezzled during the campaigns and ballots
Ethan Gonzalez
Kek only helps those who are righteous and right wing. You Catacucks have no power here
Gabriel Williams
They've voted Yes many times already anyway. The Spanish government has been playing the "if we pretend it's not there it will just go away" game.
Landon Torres
The EU opposes all independent movements. No matter if it's Scotland, Northern Ireland, Baques, Northern Italy or whoever.
They just don't want to deal with member splitting up because united members are easier to control.
Kayden Martinez
Hairy, smelly and loud.
Isaiah Evans
>They just don't want to deal with member splitting up because united members are easier to control. I would argue that they oppose independence because it is bad for economics of scale and hurts big business, which is the backbone of the EU. Big business wants a standardized European market with no Catalonian cucks whining about Polish tomatos invading their market or something
Thomas Thompson
Kek's meme magic doesn't work for commie lovers and moor fuckers, flagfaggot.
Jaxson Nguyen
They supported Scotland though, and they've been advocating for a united Ireland since the beginning.
It's almost as if the Germans don't like us for some reason.
