Why do you want someone else to own your surplus value, Sup Forums?

Why do you want someone else to own your surplus value, Sup Forums?

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They are cucks

Go into business for yourself if you're that salty about it.

>implying anything bigger than a lemonade stand doesn't require a $30000 deposit into some slippery jew purse

jokes on you, i'm worthless

k, thx

Can.... can I pay you money to pee on you?

Because there is not guarantee my labor will yield surplus value, yet my paycheck is guaranteed

>"muh economic cuckolding"
is this the only "argument" you retards have? you seem to repeat it every single thread
Why do you want to work your entire life to support nigger welfare leeches, /leftypol/?

No such thing, faggot. There is no objective economic value; it's all in the heads of the people trading. I value the money more than my labor, my boss values my labor more than the money, so a trade happens. We both benefit according to our own value schedules.

lrn2 a priori

>I don't care if master doesn't pay me enough, at least he pays me XDD
this is you

Nah senpai, I wanna work to enrich myself, which is easier if some greedy porky doesn't steal most of the wealth I create. I'll gladly pay 100% more taxes of my pay increases by 400%.

Amazing idea, I can stop being exploited by exploiting others!

Do you ancaps put thought into these arguments?

>surplus value
What a retarded concept. As if "value" is something I create and my employer seizes it from me. When working, I provide a service to my employer and he pays me as per our agreement. BOTH of us get something of value out of it: he gets my labor (which I certainly don't give a shit about but HE values since it helps him run his business), whereas I get money to buy shit *I* value.

Marxism was a mistake.

>I wanna work to enrich myself
Scientists and researchers arguably enrich themselves, but they also create knowledge, which is why there are people willing to pay them to do so. What kind of "enrichment" do you have in mind for yourself? If you can't find anyone to pay you to do it, it's probably worthless to anyone but you, which is why free time exists. Remember free time? It's that time you have between working.

marx is pseudoscience/science fiction

Surplus value is all the value you produce but isn't given back and is collected by a capitalist. It isn't thrown back into expenses for the job or anything, just collected because muh ownership I earned it.

When we say surplus value we're referring to all the extra that is produced, but enjoyed by owners of private property rather than the working class themselves.

I never said anything about amounts dick weed. It is a matter of transfer of risk. This may come as a shock to you but business involves risk and not all businesses are successful all the time. Have you ever worked for a startup? Most fail to create value and go out of business. Say the business burns through capital and fails to create a viable product or service, are the employees obliged to payback their negative surplus value?

Even if the enterprise is successful in the long run, chances are it will generate losses in the beginning. Will employees have to wait 5 years to get a paycheck? Or if the economy simply enters a downturn and the business loses money for a year, does that mean no paycheck until value is again created?

TLDR: Employees need to put food on the table ever day while value creation in inherently unpredictable and lumpy. Employees trade their created value for the promise of a guaranteed paycheck while equity owners receive the residual.

it's called 'profit' , marx just used another word to justify his power grab, sage

Yeah, must business involves risk, but not in a planned economy
But jokes aside, risk doesn't justify capitalists owning enough private wealth to manipulate governments and start wars while the workers hwo created that value have to work two jobs to get by and have no political power.

>i'm okay with all my earned wealth being stolen and given away as long as it goes to the right people
user...

>Yeah, must business involves risk, but not in a planned economy

Now I know you're trolling. Fuck off

>workers have no political power
>what are unions
>what is voting

You now know why most marxists tend be arts, literature or philosophy majors. They want a society where they can live off painting or writing books all day. They dont want to be out in the factories working which they would have to in order for a communist society to be able to exist. But that is the problem with communism. Everyone is going to want to do the fun easy jobs and not the hard manual labor. Shit if I knew I was going to get the same housing and benefits as the guy working breaking his back in the factories by say playing the piano and writing communist novels and literature. My ass would be in the coffee shop with my intellectual comrades writing books and symphonies. That is why they want communism. So they can drink coffee all day and discuss politics and philosophy or painting and composing music while still making a living. Something in a capitalist society they cant do and have to work in daddy's boring office to make a living instead of jaming out or doing sculptures in your government provided apartment

Hahahaha, commie thinking he produces a surplus value!!

>just vote the right people!

Voting nor unions smash the bourg state. It requires a dictatorship of the proletariat.

that's exactly not my point. I said that even if I have to pay more to sustain others, I still get more at the end because the majority of my created value isn't taken by a bourg.

>what are unions
Complete jokes, mostly sub-coordinated by the coorps themselves.
>what is voting
Giving your power to some party based on what they promise you (to which they are not accountable) while they take paychecks from big business.

>Muh only experience with socialists are american white university students that smoke pot all day.

LOL how the fuck do you know it's "extra"? How the fuck do you know what's "enough"? Define your terms, commie cunt!

Idiots like you are responsible for the ravages of Communism--the REAL holocaust.

Lemme tell you what profit is. Profit is WHAT YOU ADD TO THE WORLD. According to whom? THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. Measured how? BY WHAT THEY ARE WILLING TO TRADE YOU FOR IT. It is the epitome of fairness.

Add up all the costs that go into running a business. Labor, yes. Also capital. Also the meat you buy. And the cheese. And the buns. And the grills. And the lease on the Burger Shack. And the insurance for the building. And the electricity. And the water. Etc.

All those resources already existed. Now, is your particular form of organization--your Burger shack--what you, the entrepreneur, spends his time MAKING--successful or not? That is: is it a WASTE or not?

If you're not profiting, you are DESTROYING YOUR INPUTS. Making back 95% of what you spent is the same as just taking 5% of the original capital and throwing it into the ocean. If you don't profit THERE IS LESS VALUABLE STUFF IN THE WORLD AFTER YOU STARTED THAN BEFORE. You have wasted valuable things, i.e., taken them out of the world.

If you profit, you have MADE THINGS. There is now MORE VALUABLE STUFF IN THE WORLD THAN BEFORE.

What the capitalist makes is literally
>what
>he
>MAKES.

If you profit 5% it means you organized the existing capital--put form to matter, like God--in such a way that there is 5% more stuff people want in the world than there was before. You have truly PRODUCED. What you make while NOT profiting or even breaking even is simply a pointless rearrangement of existing stuff.

Absolutely this

Say I work as a cook in a restaurant alongside, say, three other cooks. I get paid $20/hour. If the restaurant costs $20/hour to run (including overhead+supplies but not wages) and brings in $140/hour, then my boss makes $40/hour. We are being paid at the rate of $2 for each $1 our boss makes.

Now, of course, we could each get paid 50% if the boss was out of the picture, and that's true. But calling our boss's profit "surplus labor" is just an attempt at moralizing. We all provide a service to our boss. The boss provides money in exchange for this service, and of course he profits, otherwise, what incentive would he have to even open a restaurant?

The best thing is that nothing prevents us from just getting up and leaving and making our own restaurant if we think we have the managerial skills. The point, however, is that if we decide to stay there, there's nothing "extra" we've produced that we haven't been compensated for. We have produced work valued at exactly $20/hour by our boss and that's exactly how much we are paid for.

>LOL how the fuck do you know it's "extra"?
because the value doesn't exist before work, but after it suggesting it's a produce of the work. if the worker is then payed in such a way that the majority of this "extra" created goes to the capitalist, surpluss value is extracted you brainlet

Because the state has monopoly on violence and have welfare programs to spend my money on.

Unions are much, much, much weaker and less respected than they used to be. Voting works in theory, but large numbers of working class people or ethnic minorities mysteriously can't make it to the polls at certain times, or just so happen to have been sent inaccurate information regarding the polls.

>even if I pay more, I still get more because what I lose goes to "the right people"
>y-yes, the workers have political power, but it d-doesn't REALLY count
It's pathetic how desperate you are

then also fuck the state I guess
tbqh fuck everything that doesnt serve my ego

>Yes, the workers have power, but until my infantile fantasies are fulfilled, it doesn't really count, who cares about how many workers would die as long as I can be le ebin hero, it's all about ME
is absolutely right, most communists are spoiled losers with an art degree and narcissism

Does your brain work?
Let's say I produce 100x of value under capitalism.
My prorky takes 80x. I get paid 20x and give 10x of that to society as taxes.
I produce 100x under socialism.
I give 50x to society but I also get all the 50x left over because porky doesn't get his share without adding something.
You can see how 50x is more then 10x, amirite?

In the modern era, "american white university students that smoke pot all day" are the main group of socialists, at least in America.Do you honestly think that antifa/hippies/berniebros are part of the working class?

It's extra, as it didn't exist beforehand, not in that company at least.

Say a tech company spends money in research and development and creates some new piece of tech. That's all neat and well, then they sell it on the market. Let's say after a year on the market, it being very popular, the CEO of said company gets increasingly richer. He wasn't that rich before, but now he is. And that money didn't go back into the company either, it's personally his. It's what wasn't there before.

You absolutely cannot justify this.

Yes.

(((read stirner)))

>tfw work in logistics so according to Marx I produce 0 value, but still get paid
who else /playingthesystem/ here?

>>/out/

Because the people that are owning the surplus value has tricked the white man into giving their lives to defend their right to extract surplus value.

How else do you explain "I'd go to war to fight them commie bastards".

The greatest jewish trick played on the white man.

That is because all marxists are upper middle class rich kids you dumb faggot. Starting with Marx himself. And all others after him. Che Guevara was a rich kid from Argentina, descendant if Spanish nobility. Castro was upper class as well. There is no working class commies. Unionists yes. They dont want full blown communismm they just want capitalism to be reformed and to get some workers rights. No blue collar American wants communism

>he thinks that 80 percent of what he produces is taken away
You are not as important as you think you are

Why don't you want to own anything, commie?

Unless you spend your working days fucking around, you still produce value...

Nonsense, you can't own stuff in socialism, getting to keep 50% of your income or more get self-employed, not a magician with empty promises, who gets shot if he disagrees. Fucking German left, spastic assholes.

85% of Bolsheviks were Jewish
Karl Marx himself was a jew
Jews have repeatedly funded communist groups
Now why, just why would (((you))) be shilling for capitalism as a jewish ideology.

>the value doesn't exist before work
>value
You keep using that word. Let me ask you a few questions:

What is the value of an apple that I picked up from the ground almost effortlessly?

What is the value of an apple I just picked from a tree after climbing it? Is it higher than before? Have I created value?

Suppose I don't want to eat the apple. Should I price the apple according to how much effort I put in acquiring it?

>All that happens in the world it's those three 50's activists that I barely know by name.

You live in a worst bubble than your marxists.

the 'surplus value' is SJW crap, normal people call this PROFIT, now fuck off to China

according to Marxism, moving things from one place to another doesn't produce value, so my job is literally nothing but stealing value from the people who made things I move

I am the bourgeoise motherfucker

This
Karl Marx wasn't just a jew but an Elite jew

There's no labor surplus. Without the investments of someone else I would make a lower wage. If I could make a higher wage with my own investments on the area I work I would be self employed like half of human beings on planet earth.

Of course you produce value! Tell my why your boss should pay you if that wasn't the case? He would hire you at a loss.

that example isnt even unrealistic for a industrial job in the first world.


>you can't own stuff in socialism,
My grandfather owned a house and a car in the socialist GDR. BTFO

An apple has close to no value as there has been closely to no human labour put into it. if the apple is shipped overseas, cleaned and put into packaging that raises it's value.

>according to Marxism, moving things from one place to another doesn't produce value,
HOW?
If it is part of the fabrication of the good, moving it takes human labour in a certain amount of time which IS value. You just don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I want all commies keel hauled and burned

>it didn't exist beforehand
>therefore it's extra
You STUPID motherfuckers. Labor isn't special. The labor's value existed. AND the beef's value existed. AND the land's value existed. The capitalist combines ALL these inputs together and makes something MORE valuable.

His firm, i.e. his method or organization is his contribution and his profit is the measure of that contribution.

Read that again. The entrepreneur offers a FORM to the MATTER. He offers a METHOD OF ORGANIZATION. That is a real and valuable thing. How valuable? THAT'S MEASURED BY PROFIT. If his method is not valuable he WASTES HIS INPUTS.

SHIT my ASS, if this were something with fewer real-world consequences I wouldn't be as pissed, but you NINCOMPOOPS go around spouting your made-up nonsense about how firms work and everyone ends up poor and crushed under the boot of a tyrannical idiot state.

There's no fair amount of rich. You make what you MAKE. There's no right to profit held by the laborers. The laborers ALREADY SOLD WHAT WAS THEIRS. If their labor produces more wealth than the CEO trades to them, then they can go to a competitor and offer their labor to him at a higher price. They would make more AND the competitor would make more and the original CEO would lose money because he was paying his workers too little.

That's why employers pay anything at all! Because their power is ALREADY checked by the power of labor in the market. If they produce more than you pay them, the laborers and competing capitalists have incentives to join forces and beat your ass in the market.

Jesus Christ man, DO NOT GO AROUND FUCKING UP PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING OF CAPITALISM. You are making the world worse with every word! Think first! THINK! I beg you!

I gotta be honest with you, this isn't a debate. I know, and you two don't know. Get over yourself, get over your pride, stop loving your shitposting selves, love Truth instead. Faggots

>My grandfather owned a house and a car in the socialist GDR. BTFO
he couldn't buy a second of either BTFO, you're a lobotomized liar

not so bad comparing to jew owning my life once communism is in order.

That's not how it works.
It's he farm owner exploiting his serfs, producing nothing and enjoying a life of luxury.
It's the hotel owner, exploiting his workers, producing nothing and enjoying a life of luxury.
It's rentalfags, renting out property, producing nothing and enjoying a life of luxury.
It's stockmarketfags, selling around papers, producing nothing and enjoying a life of luxury.

There is some stupid parts of Marxists theory, such as peasants who own their own land being petit-bourgeois because they own the means of production.

You're doing a job of facilitating transport and storage thus contributing to the value of the products.

>My prorky takes 80x
Kek. Have you tried paying for all the expenses and funding your own business, and checking to see if a 20yo cuck who shows up for a wage work is really doing all the productivity?

>I give 50x to society
No, you are FORCED to give that to society. This is an important part to emphasize. Socialism is the antithesis of autonomy.

Meanwhile, that 80% that was being stolen by the evil capitalist? That's completely voluntary. You can walk out and try to make your own investments whenever you want. You alleged exploitation is something that is 100% voluntary, and the only reason you took the job was because they offered you a higher wage then you could otherwise get by working alone.

First world industrial workers have the highest standard of life ever. I'd say that that's a lot of value for 40 hours of work a week

>landowners and stockmarketers produce no value
literal retard tier

literally this

It is written in Talmud that all the goyim should be slaves to the jews, and all the property in the world should belong to the jews. Chaim Herschel Mordecai of respected rabbi lineage created best tool to make these talmudic teachings a reality - under communism goyim have no property and forced into slave labor for the state, which owns all property and is ruled by jews.

>commie revolutions were not lead by coffee drinking intellectuals and rich kids
Just because you convince the masses of fighting for you does not mean they follow your ideology

>offer someone work
>explotation

Nigga, just go away if you don't like the agreement.

youtube.com/watch?v=jkYoHxzaKs4

You know nothing about real attempts to socialism

>The labor's value existed. AND the beef's value existed. AND the land's value existed
>value is something natural
read a fucking book for fucks sake.

So if jews own the banks, and most of all coorps rely on banks, then how don't the jews own you already?

>That's completely voluntary.
No it's not.
theplanningmotivedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/third-quarter-2016-rate-of-surplus-value-pdf2.pdf
>No, you are FORCED to give that to society
Forced by whom? The proletarian state made up of workers like me. If they are also workers, why should they keep workers terrible wages and who whould that money that does not gfo to the workers go to? Doesn't seem very plausible to me.
>You alleged exploitation is something that is 100% voluntary, and the only reason you took the job was because they offered you a higher wage then you could otherwise get by working alone.
No matte how well a job is paid, you will never get all of the value produced paid, because in that case, your capitalists would make no more profit, making it illogical from a capitalists standpoint to employ you.
Yes, they have, in the first world. Capitalists are able to pay these workers higher wages and increase thier living standarts by exploiting more value from the third world to make up for those losses. That way they keep stability.

And what you so conveniently ignore is that under capitalism, many former third-world countries have risen to near first-world levels of prosperity. Capitalism is actually far better for the world's workers than communism. For proof, just look at South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, or Chile. Capitalism works.

Because it was never mine to begin with?

>Start business
>Unique product
>Get legally trolled
>Go out of business because legal costs.

Exactly 100% of new business can be sniped by bigger players at any time and place of their choosing.

How does that disprove my arguments?
I literally just finished reading a book on Chilean communists and how they used theater to ressist against Pinochet. I am sorry to tell you but working class dont go to college to major in theater. I am not saying there is no working class people in the fight fir communism. I am saying they are all being led by rich upper middle class faggots. The average factory worker can not read Das Kapital. But that is why the commie manifesto was written so the proles can understand it. But the real ideology of communism lies in the das capital and only someone with a college education can understand and have the time to read such a difficult and boring book. And that is who Marx expected to lead the revolution not the proles

Production has changed location to where wages where lower to ensure profitability. This caused a rise in living standarts because more works was available. But don't think those countries developed good living conditions for greater parts of the population just by adopting capitalism.
Japan was supported into greatly after WW2, so was SK and Taiwan after their fights against east-block factions. Saudi Arabia is lucky to have natural resources in its geological area.
But Singapore, Taiwan, SK, Chile and Quatar all have worse living conditions for their poorer 40% of population then cuba has for their hole.

why do you want to lose your job?

I want to own the hole factory.
Or at least as much of it as I deserve by controlling it with the other workers through a council.

Because I have no choice.
Capitalism gives my surplus value to the jews.
Communist to the niggers. Can't tell which is better.

Nice argument faggot

Value = what people are willing to trade for it. People already wanted beef, land, labor, etc. How badly did they want them? Price tells you. If they didn't have value already they would have been FREE.

Bring the arguments when you come at me boi. This is Sup Forums, you breathe into your balls and make an argument here, you don't just bat eyelashes at Ahmed and present your dilated cornhole. That's your apartment you're thinking of

>they used theater to resist against Pinochet.

Yeah why not, after 10 years of the mass killing fucker any form of resistance may work.

youtube.com/watch?v=e869UuhJOJQ

Poor people in Chile were the abundant majority and the main reason why socialism was a desirable system of government back then, they truly believed in Allende and he didn't disappointed them, it was the army who betrayed them.

>Value = what people are willing to trade for it.
No, that's price. Price and value might be interchangable words in basic economy, but not in advanced economy.

Marxism is antiquated nonsense. The "means of production" is an outsated concept without real modern relevance. Take America, for example, whose "means of production" have been outsourced to China. Even progressives don't care about the working class anymore. They have outlived their usefulness as the group to pander to. Now it's all about being the smallest minority so you can get special privileges to compensate for how disproportionately you've been "victimized" by society. Marxism is currently in the process of being erased from the collective consciousness, as it should be.

>basic economy
>advanced economy
Arbitrary, socially constructed categories.

or maybe the joke just went over your head

Is my labor the price of my wage?
>advanced economy
more like making up spooks to justify kike bootlicking

are you trolling me?
>spooks
didn't you just a few minutes ago claim that value was natural? stfu about spooks

Yes, you value something because you want it, it's the simplest thing in the world. Doesn't require money, doesn't require "a system" or anything like that.

I value pizza because I'm hungry. I value my first slice a lot. I value my second slice a little bit less. I value the ninth slice--when I've already eaten eight--hardly at all. That's the law of diminishing marginal utility. It's just there in the human condition, no political or economic "system" needed at all.

We simply have value schedules for the stuff we want, all of us. Natural as an uncut cock.

But value is used in economics as a scientific term that has a certain definition.
libcom.org/library/use-value-exchange-value-value

>labor theory of value
Lol. Get some new material. Commies don't even know about the Marginal Revolution.

But the LBOV was first described by Adam Smith, not by Karl Marx.

>4th sentence and already bitching about "social needs"
in other words your definition of "value" is entirely subjective. you can't have free shit, give it up commuroach.

Academic economics ain't the Magisterium. I don't much care which empiricist school thinks its definition of value is "scientific."

I'm an Austrian (surprise!) so you won't see my views in Economics outside of HHH's office at UNLV and the Mises Institute. Most economists think their discipline is empirical; I think it is deductive.

If you want to deduce with me here ITT I'm down but if we're gonna post links and refer to authorities I'ma GTFO

>Value it's subjective.
>Pay my fee or fuck off.

Latin America continues to be Best America, thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread

>south korea has worse living conditions than cuba
do you actually believe this

Meanwhile socialism or communism would mean someone else still owns your surplus value except its the government and a series of worthless immigrant shitskins.

I don't

But i hate kikes and globalism as well and how communists are mainly both, so nazbol is the best goddam ideology ever

TRUE NATIONALISM
Heil Stalin
Heil the future of the European race

youtube.com/watch?v=TbvmWGRgF_E

I don't.

But I want even less to see my people genocided. If Communists in Europe broke free from the subversion that is "pro multicultralism and open borders mania", it would grow fast as fuck in these times. Instead the right-wing will continue to grow.

Also Communism will simply not work with racial tensions that will be there with clearly inferior and more violent people, sub-saharans and inbred Middle-easterners.

C*mmunists are dumb fucking niggers

Heil Stalin

Neetbol 4 life