Empirical Evidence for the Labor theory of value

users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf
reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
criminalgovernment.com/docs/planks.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

no it isn't. you only have couple of (((guys))) still believing your bullshit, and yet you strut around like you got the fucking keys to the universe

>refute the paper!!
you can't post "scientific" articles with all sorts of equations and expect untrained people refute them on the spot. you don't understand the argument yourself, that's why you ask us to read through a "study" of your liking. go back to leftypol. no independent calculation of opportunity costs = no economic calcultation

Alfred Marshall teaches us the following:
Labor theory of value explains the supply curve of a manufactured product. Utility theory of value explains the demand curve of the manufactured product. Both are theories are important. They are the two blades in a pair of scissors. Don't listen to the ideologues who try to promote one theory and exclude the other.

They use value in a completely different way. You can really beleive them at the same time.

If there is a strong correlation between market price and value (as indicated in these papers) would you beleive the labor theory of value?

no because i can't really analyze these studies, i'm not an economist. you could have a complete hack marxist economist write a shit paper, but still the changes are i don't know enough economic theory to thoroughly refute the paper, especially right now, past midnight. as Coase said, "If you torture the data, it'll confess to anything"

Would a strong correlation between market price and labor time (say you had someone who did know economics look at the paper and he confirmed it was legitimate) prove the LTV?

Value is determined on market.

Forgot to add
Emotional value is yours only. You are worthless until someone else acknowledges your worth.

We are speaking of different concepts of value. I use the term value to say how much labor it takes on average for society to production a commodity. You use it to mean subjective preference. We can't actually have an argument unless we use the same definition.

Labor and labor are not comparable. Only results of your labor have value.
200000000 lstupid unorganized niggers like you will build that plane in 20000 years and it is outdated and valueless (only emotional value) then.

More commie shit that can only exist on paper is solution, I agree.

*Only results of your labor can have value.

Notice how I said "average". If it takes the average worker 1 hour to make 1 pen and you spend 100000 years making 1 pen your pen is still only worth 1 hour of labor.
It proves a strong correlation between labor time and value.

They probably wrote these in a stoned, adderal-fueled weekend. Definitely shoddy, possibly ironically so. If what they're saying is true, their own work is nearly worthless. Commies BTFO

i really can't grant you that. I reckon there are plenty of marxist praising this particular paper, as there are plenty of free-marketers who would find all sorts of faults with it. Fundamentally, LBT will depend on subjective elements either way; you don't know what kind of labor is desirable without the market.

There is no such thing as average worker.
Pens are made by robots, btw.

>you don't know what kind of labor is desirable without the market.

yeah. What the market demands is what is considered socially useful. Unless its something like stocks which have no use other than creating more value.

What I am asking is if you saw a strong correlation between labor time and price and and you could confirm it was a real correlation would you believe in the LTV? if not what would make you believe?

Doesn't matter if their is an average worker or not. I'm talking about the average labor time in society
>Pens are made by robots, btw.
it was an example.

how could they even calculate the time needed for producing one unit of whatever? labor is homogenous, and i don't believe they aggregated capital until there was only labor left like sraffa would instruct

Its hard but you can do it by looking at simple commoditys and then going up the production line.

>it was an example.
Yes, it was an example. Pens are made by robots and have no value. Until market gives them value.
Niggers compared with robots have no value, too.

Average labor time in NEET society is 0.

I think you would also have to fool around with price of production and the temporal single system interpratation of marx's transformation formula.

The production of pens has some human labor in it. Not a lot perhaps someone has to inspect the pens or something like that.

Any person would prefer to work for himself. The only reason to work for someone else would be that the person makes more working for someone else than he would working for himself. Therefore, the worker is actually receiving more than his labor is worth and therefore is, in fact, exploiting the capitalist.

The capitalist is paying the worker the value of his labor power and the worker is producing a little more value than the value of his labor power.

Their labor does not have value. Until market gives some value to it.

Lets look at the software industry. It takes 0 hours of labor to make 1 copy of microsoft word. You can have a computer do it over and over forever. Without copyright or some sort of monopoly the price of a copy of microsoft windows is also 0 dollars.

Worker has no value without market giving him value.

This.

And the capitalist is paying for the materials and delivery

...

>copyright or some sort of monopoly the price of a copy of microsoft windows is also 0 dollars
So there will be no development and we are eternally stuck with Windows 1.0?

We are using different definitions of value. I have said that the average amount of time required to produce a commodity determines it value and therefor its equalibrium price. I have provided studies confirming this in the OP post.
Yes. I'm not making a moral argument about who "deserves" what.
Probally. It was an example.

so labor is just calculated as labor hours?

>Probally. It was an example.
This is exactly what happens in communism. There will be no development.

>Labor surplus is stolen from the workers
>Literally an invented concept, marx has a retarded theory of value which would value things on hours of labor
>Somehow killing and confiscate someone's possessions isn't a problem
>Rich capitalist flees the country, poor farmers and small retailers get shot in the streets
>Justice is done

Communist have been dense from the start

Yes. All unskilled labor (could be done by nearly anyone) creates the same amount of value. Except skilled labor that creates more value than unskilled.
Marx didn't invent it and it can be proven in the papers I linked.

There is no such thing as unskilled labor. All labor implies skill.

>If Michael Angelo puts 200 hours into a sculpture its equal to Niggdarius Chickmelon putting 200 hours into a sculpture

How do you discern excellence and higher skill? how do you determine who is clearly better? Do you pay them both the same?
Communist Jew niggers never understood this because they've never been good at anything other than lies and money lending.

'
> I have said that the average amount of time required to produce a commodity determines it value
This is emotional value. You can stick it into your rectum. I am not going to buy this shit.

>you need to be skilled to dig a hole or press a button.

What are you talking about? Thats a definite number not influnced by any type of emotion. in these Pdfs you can see a very strong correlation between the avaerge labor time it takes to create something and the price.
users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf
reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf

The LTV is not a theory about how people should be paid in a communist society.

No, value is subjective, by definition.

I value this retarded thread less than you value this retarded thread.

Labor theory of value debunked.

>you need to be skilled to dig a hole or press a button.
Yes. Otherwise you dig hole with wrong size or press button too early/late/wrong button.

This is like critiquing darwin by saying he uses the word fitness wrong. Is that you academic agent?

My point is with very little training (obviously they need to tell you how to do your job) basically anyone could do those jobs.

>Thats a definite number
Numbers really mean nothing per see. Humans give them meaning(s). And meaning(s) can be or not be of any value.

No, it actually wouldn't. There is correlation only because labor cost (along with all other costs) puts a floor on price necessary to be profitable and therefore remain in business. Business whose labor costs exceed what would allow for profit return go out of business, so of course there would be a correlation. But it says nothing of value per se, but instead the realities of a market economy.

Patently insane.

My dad works as a real-estate appraiser. He's required to include a supplement method of valuation - "Cost-valuation." Not once in his career has anyone even looked at it. It is beyond worthless.

Labor theory is easily debunked if you're over 20 and think about your life experiences for 5 minutes.

>My point is with very little training
You are talking about low skilled labor. Not about labor without skill. There is difference. Labor without skill does not exist.

moron

>This is like critiquing darwin by saying he uses the word fitness wrong
No it isn't.

>dead on arrival "my room went warmer after I turned on the heater once Marx was right after all" retarded tier unconclusive bullshit by some random faggot trying to felate Cuckfags bullshit not even man made climate change hoaxer would touch
>some liberal arts commie faggots who cant even read a single expression screech "muh science"
>2004

There is none. Value is subjective.

And I can prove it. I spent three days making today's shit. Are you gonna pay me three days wages for it?

I can't give a refutation of the paper, mate. I try to read it, but I simply don't know enough about economic theory, data, statistical methods, etc. Hopefully these guys (two of them who don't even have Wikipedia entries) win a Nobel if they're right.

>What is GNU

Woah! Holy shit you just debunked 150 years of carefully thought out and hotly debated economic theory in under 13 words!

Its a definite number. Its not subjective and the price of a commodity is heavily correlated to it.
users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf
reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf

Its not just a correlation. Prices predicted by the theory are very close to real prices.

How about: "work that nearly anyone is society could do."

You can't tell the value just by looking at an object. A can of beans doesn't say '1 hour of labor' on it.

Thats not social labor and we are using different definitions of value.

we are using different definitions of value.

>Literally anyone can do manual labor
Why is every commie such a bubble-headed snob?

You all are completely oblivious as to how complex even unskilled labor is.

No one under 80 IQ can be trained to do these tasks you think are contemptible.

And also, go fuck yourself for insulting people's livelihood. A little less than half the population has less than 100 IQ

100% of commies too, from what I've seen. And/or useless government job.

>Without copyright or some sort of monopoly the price of a copy of microsoft windows is also 0 dollars

Plenty of money in open source projects to prove you wrong in this too.

The 'unskilled' job can be done by most people in the economy without basicaly any training. That all I am saying. I should not have used marxist terminology.

Donations =/= charging for a commodity.

Those "papers" are embarrassing. Science went to shit. Burn it and everyone who claims to use the (((scientific method))) in humanities (includes economics)

>Appraisers look at items and guess at the cost
>Being this retarded
>Thinking he has any credibility or competence to proscribe anything for society
>Thinking he could argue something like the labor theory of value after revealing such stupidity

You must be LARPing. You're too close to the stereotype of the Dunning-Kruger commie.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

No. There is no such thing as real communism.
It doesn't exist. It is a misnomer.
Communism implies a system for the benefit of the community, but it is not.
It is a system for the benefit of Moses Mordecai (aka "Karl Marx") and his cousins the Rothschilds.
There has never been real "communism" because it is and always will be Mordecaism.

>Fifth Plank of the Communist Manifesto: Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

criminalgovernment.com/docs/planks.html

Let’s say there are two different products that are Imperfect substitutesThe people who produce the first product are lazy communists and take fucking forever to make anything.

Being communist they think hey this took forever to make we’re going to charge a lot of money for this.

At the market no one decides to buy their good because there is an imperfect substitute that cost way less to make .

No one buys their good because even though they think the cost is high it is not worth that much . it’s value is not that high just because people put effort into making it.

It’s value or how much it’s worth is based off of the comparison between how much benefit they get from owning said object versus the next best alternative and it’s cost

>How about: "work that nearly anyone is society could do."
Skill involved.

> Its a definite number. Its not subjective and the price of a commodity is heavily correlated to
it.
It has no value.

lol, next thing you are gong to tell me being a carpenter is more complex then programming

No it fucking can't.

marx agrees with you. Social average labor determines value not idivual labor time.
You might not think it has value but it clearly has a huge influnce on price.

>Obvious NEET with no experience with working class
>Primitive bait and switch
>Unironically thinking he made a point

There is no such thing as unskilled job. Every job involves skill.

Commies remind me of young-earth creationists. They take conclusion which was published in some old book as a factual conclusion, then shit the tubes with shit quality publications to support the conclusion. This has been going on for 100 years by now.

They need to be rounded up and shipped to their own parallel societies. Let's say size of Guatemala. Then get armed guards to supervise that they run their new society by the letter. Single escape attempt nullifies claim to clay and every communist will be then shot and clay reclaimed for humanity. Straying from their fine theories likewise spells the same doom. And, as we all know, sticking to their "empirical evidences" likewise kills them off.

I see this as completely just way forward.

Stop parading this shitty theory as if its some universal law.

Tell me, OP: if person A sets the price of his product to reflect the amount of value he put into creating it, while person B sets the price of the same product to reflect the customers' notion of its value, who will succeed? Person A, or person B? Its B. So why the fuck do you still parade this theory around as if its some sort of universal law? Its merely an abstraction; it doesn't work.

Dude. You have NOTHING to offer. You immediately dismissed an entire profession as "just looking at an item." Yet you unironically think you can run everyone's life.

Absolute disgrace. You ouhgta be ashamed of yourself.

Reminder that pic related is the result of your "theories."

> huge influnce on price.
Not actually. Price is more influenced by cost of living in this case.

>Its not just a correlation.
Yes it is.

>we are using different definitions of value.
And yours is wrong. Value requires a valuer. It is necessarily subjective. The difference with fitness is that it was defined for evolutionary theory.

enjoy cleaning my toilets, pleb

These are not the same object it doesn’t have to be even remotely related it could be making television versus taking a walk in the park as a form of entertainment

You can’t take the social average of making two completely different objects

Fitness in evolutionary theory has valuer too.

"Socially useful" is a weasel term that sneaks subjective value into the theory.

holy shit, a hundred years of neoclassical economics BTFO, it was a bourgeois conspiracy all along!

It is religious. Really, look at this thread. Ignores any counter evidence and prattles on about what his savior thinks.

Gassing might be the only solution. I certainly wouldn't mind in OP's case.

My mistake for actually treating a commie as anything but the subhuman scum they are.

Even though these objects compete for peoples time And are completely unrelated except for that fact

I guess you could say that it does in sexual selection.

Look at the studies.
Observed price
Labour values 0.983
TSS prices 0.989
Sraffian prices 0.983

LMFAO

Is that right?

They would reach the same basic price after a while.
>objective definition argument
You can except the definition of a unicorn without beleiving it exists.

laws > theories. supply and demand is a law, and is observable to anyone. have you any laws?

Not looking at shit until you explain to me exactly why your assumptions about REAL ESTATE appraisal were beyond retarded.

>They would reach the same basic price after a while.
And how exactly, in theory, would this happen?

Not only.
Environment has it's say too. Sexual selection can be random (as in rape-based societies or bees distributing pollen), some evolution will happen regardless.

>Implying objective definitions are a fallacy
>Not recognizing your own solipsistic Platonic logic
It is truly disgraceful you think you're arguing something of any merit.

>empirical evidence for something subjective

Gassing wouldn't make as fun reality TV as five seasons max of Communist Utopia Live.

No one subscribes to the LTV since Hayek disproved it in Law, Legislation and Liberty by Hayek in the 70s.

t. Political philosophy professor

Marx btfo out for all leftypol in one rhetorical question:
If the 2nd amendment is outdated because 18th century men could not imagine 21st century weapons, how could marx possibly imagine 21st century consumer demands and services?
To suppliment for your commie brainlets, how could marx envision my 1hr of IT engineering labor which is significantly less strenuous than the easiest working class job of his time?
He values unskilled labor equally to that of highly specialized labor, a marxist society will not produce anyone any good at anything unless they start making some naturally tallented people "more equal" than other equal people.
Anyone who espouses marxist ideals is absolutely, uncounter-arguably, brainlet. I agree we need a new system, but i will fight until my fingernails fall off to prevent what we have from being replaced with something so fucking stupid.

>You can except the definition of a unicorn without beleiving it exists.
What is your definition of value?

It isn't religious as much as it is that Marxism is a closed system that is internally consistent, so statements produced within the theory will necessarily be true within the system. This gives adherents a sense that they are always right and that the system explains everything. But the problem is that it is not externally consistent.

So Marxism is sort of like a body of mathematics, where any theorems produced by the axioms and definitions of the system are true within the system. You can play around within the system as much as you like and you will be right within that system. But when used to model something external it does not match what it is modelling.

I have provided a paper that shows that the Labor theory of value can predict prices fairly well.
Well a real estate appraiser would have some experience of market price of similar houses and thus be able to sort of judge what the market price might be.
LTV isn't a law to be imposed its an observation of how price naturally go.
How is an "objective" definition not a fallacy.
I'm not using the term value to refer to something subjective. The average labor time is not subjective.
2nd ammendment isn't outdated and the basic laws of capitalism have stayed the same.
Average labor time society has to exert to create a commodity.

Labor value has no meaning other than cost of living and actual competition in laborer pool for this field set it.

Environment is not subject.