Neon Gensis Evangelion & Theology

"There is no inherent religious meaning; we put all the Christian symbolism in as a marketing gimmick."

So you mean to say that, in a show where a young boy spends his life suffering deeply, is given a mission by his father, a mission made possible by his mother (a woman who, as the show reminds us, did *nothing* wrong in her life), where his mission includes him killing Adam and becoming "the New Adam", and ends in his crucifixion, impalement with a spear, unbearable existential torment, and in which he decides to endure further suffering to give humanity a new birth; where the title is literally Latin(ish) for "The New Genesis Gospel"; in this show, not only was all this deep Christian theology a total accident, but its existing side by side with a smorgasboard of crosses and other random references to the Bible was a total coincidence?

By no means is NGE a completely Christian work; Gendo is hardly Christian God-like despite the parallels between him and the Trinitarian "Father", Shinji is not sinless, and so on, but there's too much actual theology deeply embedded in the theme for me to seriously believe it was all a total accident.

Thoughts? Is it possible that the details of Mariology, Trinitarianism, the Passion, and Christ's Redemption are common enough tropes that they could have sinked in by osmosis? Or is there a chance it really is this deep, and they've pulled some bizarre reverse-psychology stunt?

>that picture
Really Makes You Think

Worrying about whether they meant it or not doesn't really at that point, and that doesn't change because of a single quote said off-hand after the fact.

I mean for Christ's (Shinji's?) sake, Fuyutsuki was a professor of "metaphysical biology" - he LITERALLY has a degree in the Catholic "Theology of the Body." How could the depth and implications of that have totally slipped by *everyone*?

No, but it's fun conversation fodder.

Doesn't really matter*

Well, the discussion could be had without worrying about their intention, which only opens the floor for people to come in and say it sucks and doesn't mean anything and so on.

I meant the intentions of the author re: the depth of the show is fun conversation fodder. At least for me; I take author intention far more seriously than most authors do. If people don't think it means anything, I want to hear how they explain away all this.

I like to think 1 of 2 things about Evangelion
1.Anno is trolling us
2.Eva was actually the accidental masterpiece that come around once every two thousand years

It was an accident or a coincidence. They said it already, they put it in on purpose.

While the original decision to add Christian imagery to the series might have been made just to look cool, the fact is that whoever was charged with implementing this knew a very good deal about Judeo-Christian theology and mysticism as can be seen just from some of the names and visual images used, and managed to intertwine them with the overarching themes of the series with a symbolic correspondance and resonance that can't be explained away as mere coincidence. Anno not only undersells himself but also the series' entire production team with statements like that, and while Evangelion might not have been planned out at all like it ended up being, in the messy and human process of bringing it about someone who knew how to strengthen a story inherently of suffering and redemption with allusions to one of history's greatest stories on those themes ended up letting their mastery shine through. Of course, Neon Genesis Evangelion is in no way a Christian work; what dramatic parallels Christianity had to give were only used to strengthen its core message of existential self-affirmation, not define it as a trite work of devotion.

It's mostly motifs and symbolism for Judaism, not Christianity.

And the quote is partially right, all the crosses and religious names in the show could easily be replaced with something from Shintoism or something not even religious at all and little would actually change.
Eva has always been more about the characters than the plot, after all.

That is an *extremely* satisfying explanation. I've had home cooked meals less satisfying than that paragraph.

> all the crosses and religious names in the show could easily be replaced with something from Shintoism or something not even religious at all and little would actually change.

I entirely disagree. Shinji's crucifixion scene is entirely essential to his final role as mankind's saivor; with it, his mission is one of redemptive sacrifice on a divine level. He doesn't just bear a cross, he becomes one. Without it, there is a redemptive sacrifice, but Shinji remains just another person. The whole act loses its *metaphysical* significance, and it couldn't be made up for by, say, drowning him in a Koi pool (my apologies if that's a poor analogy but my understanding of Shinto symbolism is very poor).

>Shinji's crucifixion scene is entirely essential to his final role as mankind's saivor
Like I said, you could just replace it with something else from another religion, linking him with the Buddha or the Kami in Shintoism would still give you the same affect. The only difference being with the Christian/Jewish approach is it would seem more exotic and unique to Japanese audiences, and therefore have more appeal.

But I already explained how that isn't the case. Those religions do not have a divine, metaphysical tale of sacrifice and redemption; to strip Shinji of that divine-metaphysical dimension changes the significance of his act. He becomes a *part* of human history, rather than the *decider* of human history. He stays a Son of Adam, rather than becoming the New Adam. Humanity returns to how it was, rather than having been given a whole new Genesis.

The only way it wouldn't change is if the Crucifixion was replaced with a divine sacrifice from another religion; if shinji were tied to a tree and blinded in one eye (like Odin), there would be an argument, but we come back to the point that the specific religious symbols used do have a thematic significance.

>Those religions do not have a divine, metaphysical tale of sacrifice and redemption
They absolutely do and are much more iconic to Japanese society than Christian/Jewish lore.
Don't just speak about other religions when you're clearly ignorant of their theology.

I never said they didn't have significance, they do. But they don't have any significance that could only be accomplished from that specific religion alone. Almost every religion shares similar themes and stories within their texts.
What I'm stressing is like what the quote implies, their significance is very minor to the main focus of the show: which is the characters and how they develop.
The plot, world building, and symbolism are just frosting on the cake.

>They absolutely do and are much more iconic to Japanese society than Christian/Jewish lore.

Buddhism I can confidently state does not have a divine sacrifice story. Buddha was not God in Buddhism. Shintoism, to my knowledge, does not have a divine sacrifice embedded as the center of its theology; to my knowledge, which I will admit is not comprehensive, it doesn't have *any* divine sacrifice. In what story does a Kami assume human form and allow himself to be killed for the sake of mankind?

>I never said they didn't have significance, they do. But they don't have any significance that could only be accomplished from that specific religion alone.

What I'm claiming is that the specific religion chosen is significant; Christianity can't just be substituted, because its *specific* symbols are important. The Divine Sacrifice for the sake of the rebirth and redemption of mankind is not found in other religions (please, let me know if I am wrong) and cannot be communicated nearly as well without a crucifixion.

>Almost every religion shares similar themes and stories within their texts.

Only on the most surface level. Islam and Christianity share "the God of Abraham", but aside from those 4 words, every minor detail of their entire theology is totally separate, since Christianity is built on trinitarianism and Islam is built on strict monotheism. Similar themes of love your neighbor and 'one god' are shallow similarities; to treat religions as interchangable relies on stripping them of their real dogma.

>What I'm stressing is like what the quote implies, their significance is very minor to the main focus of the show: which is the characters and how they develop.

To build on what that other person said, perhaps it started out that way, but by the time Shinji becomes the Redeemer, and Yui starts to become the Immaculate Mother, the characters and the symbolism start to become inseparable.

Kill yourself, newfag.

Based user knows what he's talking about, for the first time I've ever seen on an imageboard. Thanks 4 your illumination on the topic at hand.

>Yui did nothing wrong

This meme needs to be put to rest. Yui was a self-important sack of shit who emotionally manipulated her husband and traumatized her son all for the sake of her own ego and to spite a bunch of bitter old men.

Yui a shit.

I don't think you realize it wasn't exclusively Christian, it had beliefs from many different religions put in it.

Mind you, Shinji isn't the only or even most straightforward Messianic character in the series.

>tries to make Kaworu a homage to Satan from Devilman
>ends up making him the Jesus figure of Eva
What did Anno mean by this?

The shade looks as if Jesus is carrying the cross

>Latin

The real question is, could an artwork contain a message its creator didn't intended to?

>"There is no inherent religious meaning; we put all the Christian symbolism in as a marketing gimmick."

This is exactly right. Its all meaningless symbolism that psuedo intellectuals and social rejects love to obsess over to appear superior to their contemporaries .

no

More buzzwords please

It was all for Iku-chan.

I've always seen NGE as having a blend of Christian, Buddhist and Shinto influences.

Anyone with half a brain obviously knows that "it has no meaning" or "it just looks cool" quotes is taken completely out of context and used to justify hating on a show they don't want to like to begin with.

Who makes an anime purposefully not to look cool? Yes they are cool, but they also serve a purpose to drive him Anno's themes and personal struggles.

On the flip side, it also doesn't mean you should go consipiracy theory mode and think the answers of the show are hidden in the bible or some shit.

Then all the religious symbolism is there for the rule of cool and the actual message in NGE is to raise awareness of mental health issue.

They both tie together though. The show doesn't have to implicitly be ONE thing or the other. That's what makes it work beautifully.

It makes me sad to think Joseph Campbell didn't live long enough to call people faggots for trying to show him gook cartoons.

I do think the christian elements aren't there simply a ciphers that could have replaced with any random symbology. On the other hand, it's obvious the christian symbology has far more to do with occult than any mainstream theology.

At the very least, the meaning of the title spelled out in EoE justifies the christian symbology. But you can also take it as a sort self-referential Occult Grimoire in the style of Crowley or Morrison.

Anno's commentary on the matter really means nothing. This is a Christian image board so I am sure we're all coming at it from the same central premise, that Christianity holds the truth of this world and that just living in it, in a positive way, will guide you toward Christian symbols. Also, God can communicate through unwitting people and their works.
>Judaism
Only Keel is Jewish.

NGE is shit

...

Why are you in this thread then?

...

>christfags

The holy bible followed the universal archetype for a lot of story structures, so it's very likely for a random story to have a lot of theological parallels.

Anno says it to kill the author prematurely. Instead of waiting for the world to stop caring about the intentions of the people working on the piece, he just says, "oops lol" and everyone gets to jump straight to the interpretation. This way the true hidden subconscious talents of the creators can really shine through, without any of the baggage of what they thought they were doing.

Anno never said anything, the famous quote is from Tsurumaki. They obviously read up on Christianity if not for the show then out of their own interests, but as the quote says, there is no Christian or religious message in NGE. As in, it bears no relation to any idea or agenda that could apply to real life discussion/treatment of these subjects.

They put the christian symbols as an overarching leit-motif for the series, and surely they knew enough to find superficial parallelisms between some things in the show and some things in Judeochristian mythology, such as Adam being called "the first man" and alluded to as the progenitor (i.e. they didn't call it "Isaac" or anything, the symbols somewhat fit with where they were put).

Nothing of this has meaning for christianity though, everything loops back to the in-world of the show. This is called giving your work flavor. It doesn't make it deeper, just cooler.

You know what they say, alot of it is kept simple and not see deep or well thought out, and he kept it simple as marketing and appealing to many viewers out there to show variety and universality. By the end of the day when it comes to the entertainment industry, alot of it really is method acting. It's seen with bands, artists and the like and he's honestly no different than everyone else.

I thought the idea implied within the series continuity was that Christianity is mankind's interpretation of the ancient progenitor alien's activities.

lol no

It couldn't be a simple interpretation considering the Angels literally explode in crosses and the rituals have all dat symbolism.

Stuff like the Angel names or the cross explosions are pure flavor not meant to be looked hard at (despite some people's attempts to relate the Angel names with the actual christian characters bearing those names). If anything the only argument is that Shinji's journey is that of Jesus, like OP said. But that's pretty far-reaching and NGE goes out of its way to make sure everything that happens in it is thematically only supposed to matter to the individual rather than the species or the community. It's not Ideon.

Well sort of, In the Evaverse the closest thing to the Christian God is Lilith

There actually was thought put into most of the angel's names, Gaghiel was a water beast in the texts for example.

Partly, yes. Christian creation story is based on the alien landings of Adam and Lilith. To what extent did Seele or another organization shape the ancient history of the world? We don't exactly know. There are some theories that claim Keel is the wandering Jew who spit on Christ at the crucifixion, which might explain why he is happy to turn into tang despite it seeming like Gendo/Shinji got the better of him.

Closest thing to the Christian God is the ancestral race that created Adam and Lilith. Lilith is more like an Eve though it would be more interesting to come up with a connection between the two Liliths.

>he actually thinks the modified christian canon is the real one
lol

>modified Christian canon

There have been many Christian canons. I'm not sure what you mean by 'modified'.

do you know Aramaic?

I know what it is but I'm not sure you know what 'canon' means.

Pretty sure Anno like the autistic guy he is and his whole team tried to make the show visually interesting and with a decent lore but in the end this is just to make the way for the message. Which is really simple ( human relationships and to be exactly about how is worthy to be with other humans). Sure it wouldn't have the same impact without the imagery but the message is still there.

idk but if you think the roman christian fanon is its canon i've got something else for you

Don't forget one of the episodes was named after a kierkegaard book.

I keep it in the back of my mind.

In Tokugawa era Japan that banned Christianity from it's shores, the secret Christians pretend to pray to the Buddhist goddess Canon, but she is actually the Virgin Mary modified to look like Canon.

2, it has to be 2. I just can't comprehend how Anno actually created that which is Evangelion. Especially all these years after watching it and learning more about him.

Get off its dick. I love Evangelion to pieces, but it's not some transcendent work. Its strength is how it resonates to strongly with a select audience.

>to strongly
*so strongly.

What would be a transcendent work?

>Its strength is how it resonates to strongly with a select audience
Fucking dumbass, obviously that's why I view it as a masterpiece. The term "masterpiece" itself is subjective.

I haven't consumed any anime or manga as media I would consider "transcendent," although the term was admittedly hyperbolic.

Your standards are low.

So what was the point of the Evas being kaiju ?

Having low standards isn't a bad thing, user. Name one piece of work you would consider "transcendent' then.

I like this reasoning.

Evangelion is garbage.

>This is a Christian imageboard

Not an Albanian sheep fucking forum

But what would you deem a transcendent work, considering all of humanity and history?

>Thoughts?
Yeah, I think you're a dunce. You're incapable of separating the superficial qualities from the substantial ones in evangelion.

Pick any non-religious story, switch names of characters and plot elements with known religious ones, and you get the same effect as Evangelion.

That's the otherchan,they even had a /beast/ board.
I'll let you guess what it was for

>Only Keel is Jewish
And the Tree of Life design, and the names of ALL the angels and the names of the supercomputers.

>Is it possible that the details of Mariology, Trinitarianism, the Passion, and Christ's Redemption are common enough tropes that they could have sinked in by osmosis

Why not? Basically all European culture and literature is based on the Bible. By 20th century, just about everyhting a Western man does is ripping off the Bible to some extent. Then Japs start ripping off Euro culture... Guess what happens? Furthermore, Bible itself ripps off earlier mythologies, like Greek and Egyptian. So even if you try to borrow from them, you may also end up borrowing from the Bible. And any story about a hero is essentielly a story about a messianic figure, in other words, about Christ. NT just set too good and universal a formula for such stories. All Western hero stories were modeled on it, and now when Japs borrow so much from Western culture, Jap stories are as well.

Hopefully we can agree that Shinji is not a messianic figure nor is NGE a story about a hero very much at all

Christ-like figures are cyphers whose virtuosity affects everyone around them and are impenetrable monolyths of morality. Shinji, much like many modern takes on "heroes", is a broken solipsist whose mind can't deal with the outside world to begin with, and his story is much more concerned with his internal struggle to come to terms with himself rather than how his actions affect other people (which is also there, but as a secondary theme and also very focused on the same things when it comes to Asuka and Misato).

It's a story about how individuals cope with an uncaring society. Not about how society is shapen by extraordinary individuals. The agendas are completely opposite.

Jesus had doubts and challenges too. And he wasn't always a perfect Mary Sue pwning everyone... The whole point of his story is that he is human like us but overcomes his imperfections. Through the course of history the hero became more and more human and flawed to accomodate the audience's tastes and be more relatable. That's how we arrived at the likes of Shinji.