I need help understanding liberals and communism Sup Forums

I need help understanding liberals and communism Sup Forums.
So the idea of communism came from Karl Marx correct? But liberals hate russians, but love communism. How does this work? Also how can communism even exist when it has plainly failed time and time again?

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sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/
utilitarian.net/singer/by/199704--.htm
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They're retarded

I understand that, what I should have asked is how can they buy the idea and believe it's a truth on a fundamental level whilst not realizing the extreme change it brings and eventual demise? Who gave them this communist pill?

Guess (((who)))

Could it really be Jews? Wouldn't even Jews lose in the long run?

Ah, see Karl Marx was actually a german
Also the Russians were terrible at being communists, but really the reason liberals hate them is because they are a very nationalist people, even when they are commies
Also most liberals these days don't necessarily like communism, but socialism.
Not that it matters much, since most communists these days see socialism as a stepping stone to communism

As to why they refuse to accept/recognize the evils of communism and socialism, I have a little theory on that but it's just my opinion

Tell me your opinion friend, I would like to hear this to maybe better understand why the left is what it is.
>Marx german
Wouldn't the left hate Germans as well they too are very nationalist about their country or is the veil of progressivism and the influx of refugees enough to fool them?

Of course it's the Jews, they created communism in the first place

>came from karl marx
Not really but sure, we can go with that
>But liberals hate russians
they liked them when they were communists
>how can
Its like the unabomber manifesto, the critisizms and observations are correct, the conclusion is incorrect. People of abover average intelligence, they can see that the criticisms are accurate, but they arent smart enough to really judge the conclusion. This is why college kids tend to favor these things, they are above average, but not actually smart.

The entire left push for (((education))) is to ensure they somewhat smart but not actually smart people permeate society for just this very purpose.

>Also how can communism even exist when it has plainly failed time and time again?
Maybe if we were robots without emotion or personal desires.

Other sources state Marx was the founder of communism, was Marx also a jew? Or was I fed a partial lie? And again wouldn't they lose in the long run when they realize they're retarded baby uses it's retard strength when they realize Jews having more power and thus not being "true communism"
Are the Russians not primarily communist at this time but powered by a partial democracy? If I'm reading this right you are to say the person itself is flawed by not only it's upbringing in education but also by it's lack of self realization? This is interesting please go on and correct me I know I'm wrong in some aspect if not all.

>communism would work if people were not selfish
indeed

Thanks for the laugh friend I really did need it.
What would constitute as selfish?

Every form of government would work if JEWS weren't selfish

are germans nationalist? I get the impression that most leftists don't actually love any country, they just hate the US. Then they root for any country that opposes the US, or at least speak out against the US being harsh to it's enemies
I think part of this is an underdog mentality, which probably comes from watching too much tv. I used to be very much the same way.
And honestly underdog mentality can help you consider things from the other side, which is important but as far as I can tell a lot of leftists take it way too far
but that's not really the heart of my theory that's just kind of an observation
and to be fair, anyone can be an idiot who watches too much tv

Marx was ancestrally Jewish

I find it funny that leftists special snowflakes like to push an ideology that destroys the individual. I guess it makes sense that when everybody is special, no one is. queue the melting pot meme

>How does this work?

communism came from jews and was inflicted upon the poor russian people (whom the jews hate)

capice?

I wrote up a brief summary of what the useful idiots believe about Marxism which I've compiled from conversations with them and reading some of their writings. I'll copy and paste it here.

1/4
In Marxist philosophy human history advances by a process of dialectical materialism. In dialectics you have a “thesis” clashing with its contradictory “antithesis” to produce a “synthesis”. This then acts as a new thesis which clashes with its own new antithesis, resulting in a chain of destruction and creation. Marx applied dialectics to human history and theorised that class struggle was the clash between thesis and antithesis, and that human history advanced through various epochs in which an oppressor class exploited an oppressed class, causing class tensions to rise until the oppressed overthrow the oppressors and become the oppressors in a new epoch. So in Marx’s time the Bourgeoisie had recently thrown off the old Aristocratic class to end feudalism and bring about Capitalism. Under Capitalism the Proletariat emerged as the oppressed class. In Capital Marx creates a long dialectical chain describing how the contradictions in Capitalism will eventually lead to a revolution. In this revolution the Proletariat will throw off their oppressors and society will enter into a classless and equal era, Communism. Communism, being classless, contains no dialectical clashes and is therefore the final stage of human history.

2/4
Marx never describes what Communism will be like because in his view everything is governed by Bourgeois concepts. Religion, science in its current form, the right to private property, sexual and family relations, almost all philosophy… all exist to prop up the existing class structure. Therefore morality is entirely relative and it’s only the Proletariat who have within them the capacity to produce the morality which will govern Communism once they’ve thrown off their oppressors. There’s no way that we can know what this morality can be, not even the Proletariat know yet, though they inevitably will. Leftists often use the “not real Communism” defence when confronted with the atrocities of Marxist regimes, this is because in their minds it’s a paradise which we lack the conceptual framework to describe. A Christian may find great difficulty in describing Heaven, but it’s impossible for the Marxist to even conceptualise their atheistic version of Heaven, they just know it’s not been seen yet.

3/4
From the above it would appear that we can’t change history, after all everything that happens in an inevitable result of dialectical materialism. However, Marx fundamentally believes in contradiction and thought that we can change the course of history through philosophical ideas. On his grave are inscribed his words, “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” This is where all the trouble comes in. What was once a harmless prediction based on historical analysis becomes a radical attempt to “shorten and lessen the birth-pangs” of the inevitable transition of society from one stage to another. This means attacking and weakening the Bourgeois class and its institutions. The nuclear family must be ripped apart, religion must be eradicated, wealth must be redistributed and political institutions must be destroyed. All the pillars of Capitalist society must be chipped away at until they fall and the Bourgeois class is left with no defence against the revolutionary Proletariat.

There was a movie about this; Metropolis

4/4
In the West this process has taken place rather slowly, largely under the guise of Liberalism which has become so subverted by Marxist ideas that it bears very little resemblance to the Liberalism of Marx’s time. In the USSR and further East the far more radical attempts to “lessen the birth pangs” of Communism, through various forms of Socialism, produced nothing but abject horror and misery. The slaughtering of the Bourgeoisie led to economic collapse and starvation. State control of almost all property meant that economic recovery didn’t occur. People were killed or thrown into gulags for their religion. Old art and architecture was destroyed. In Indochina Pol Pot brutally murdered people for having read the wrong books.

You speak truth they were very vocal backing north Korea.
I did not realize that, I was fed a partial truth.
Could you elaborate more on this?
I see that now

I believe there was a communist movement building up in europe for some time before Marx and Engels came along and wrote the manifesto. Marx is famous because Lenin read his work, and Lenin led to the USSR, which was a pretty big deal

idk much about marx being jewish or if the jews really do control everything. The fairest thing I can say is jews are nepotistic/elitist as fuck and like muslims their religion encourages it

anyway your line about self-actualization is the big bit, I believe most leftists simply don't have it
They just don't really have individualist thought or if they do they haven't developed it very well
Thinking as an individual person or thinking of others as individual people doesn't come naturally to them

I had a discussion with a friend of mine who is pretty much an anarcho-communist and talking to him about collectivism was pretty goddamn eye-opening

c-c-c- combo breaker

>Are the Russians not primarily communist at this time but powered by a partial democracy?
communism has nothing to do with there being democracy or not being democracy, its an economic model.
Russia stopped being communist in the early 90s, they are now some form of capitalist or another. All forms of existant capitalism are actually not true capitalism, just like true communism has also never existed. This is not a meme, its just physically impossible for either ideology to actually fully implement itself it seems.

Its not really that people are flawed, unless you want to think almost everyone is flawed. Most people against communism dont actually know why they are against communism, they simply react with out even knowing why because they were taught to, or they parrot other peoples arguments. Most people do not actually have the ability to justify their own beliefs.

But yes, the decision to actually attempt to implement communism would not be made by someone past a certain degree of intelligence unless they were suffering horribly from dunning kruger effect and assume because communism (or anything really) would indeed work with nothing but people of that caliber, that it should work fine.

It all comes down to intuitive understanding. There are different ways to know things, different kinds of intelligence. The greeks always held that to know something is to experience it, or to have an intuitive grasp. Modern thought has unfortunately let that slip, you can know something by just being able to repeat it, essentially. A modern person may be able to repeat any number of other peoples arguments, or instances, on what certain actions would result in, but be unable to intuitively run a reasonably accurate simulation of the world in their head to feel for themselves what would result.

In the end communism just falls apart due to its impracticality. A system must be designed with the idea that it will function inefficiently.

Great read, it gave me a brief view I already knew was there but made me understand it better. Thank you for that.

Apologies.

Communism id ultimately just another system of economy.

At the end of the day I'm still going to spend most of my fucking life working, regardless of who owns the means of production.

The problem is that there is nothing wrong with the idea of communism. Its the sort of thing a smart person might sit down and come up with. Its like atheism in effect. Stupid people are religious, smarter people tend towards atheism, but then really smart people tend back towards some form of religion. In the grand scheme of things the 'stupid' anti-communists just give the communists more assurance and ammunition that they must be right.

I criticize modern society for allowing moderately intelligent people to think they are smart. You really shouldn't be going to school with out an IQ of 140 or higher, I would say. We need smart people in trades to keep everything running well, but modern society gives those jobs to idiots, so everything falls apart, and then people who are above average and overconfident give us screwed up ideologies that common people believe because they have been told to trust the academics and are unable to actually argue.

Beliefs must be justified. You can be right about something, but still unjustified in holding that belief.

I see I'm glad I was correct about a few things, could you bring your discussion with your friend here for the rest of us to read I'd like to know where it went.

They hate Russians because they stopped being commies and started going right.

Thanks, and you're welcome

It wasn't recorded it was while we were walking at night but there were quite a few interesting bits
collectivism vs individualism
our different buzzwords for evil

and our other friend a democratic socialist who I talked to about religion ( I was defending it)

According to many left viewers "true communism" would bring an end to the 40 hour work week and bring unto us a utopia. What would you say to them?

Actual non meme answer
>communism comes from Karl Marx
Effectively yes, although the ideas have been around in vaguer terms for awhile.

>liberals hate Russia but love communism
Marx was German. Lenin was Russian. Russia isn't a communist state anymore.

>communism has failed
Yes and no. Like democracy there are many kinds of communism, in fact Soviet Russia was a democracy. Liberals and communist acamedics argue the wrong kind has been practiced. The original Marx work, Das Kapital, certainly doesn't specify a dictatorship or no free speech. Trotsky, one of the original revolutionaries alongside Lenin and Stalin was very angry about Stalin turning Russia into a dictatorship. He left and was assassinated by Stalin.

I wasn't expecting verbatim but just a rough paragraph of what went on. I see you share a few same ideals as I do
>collectivism vs individualism
Could you go into detail about that?

>Could you elaborate more on this?

Leftists pride themselves in being uniquely free thinking individuals yet the communist ideology they shill really is all about compliant worker bees that consume and accomplish exactly what is needed and no more. During the Russian Revolution the bolsheviks weeded out and killed intellectuals in order to be left with an easily manipulated worker class.

The irony is that if everyone were to be some variation of a pan-sexual vegan that identifies as a lizard then the mass variety of "identifications" would effectively destroy the individual.

>individualism means not working
???

You dont need a system to do that. Its currently 40 hours for control. In the past humans had to work all day to survive, then we invented civilization and got some time off. This worked ok then because people produced things like food or baskets or arrowheads, and traded them. People were able to spend less time making enough things to trade for everything else they needed. Today though, we have money, an intermediary, and its worth only what the system tells you its worth. We cant cut work time in half because most people are paid by the hour, not paid by the product, so in the past where the agricultural revolution and other technologies let people work less and enjoy the same thing, now people work less and get paid less.

Roman legionaries built things to keep them busy. A busy soldier doesn't revolt. Likewise the modern work day is based on not giving people time to become energetically dissatisfied.

As a defender of communism or at least in this post, in your words how would communism work?

For a different reason than you think.
>But liberals hate russians
Russians are not brainwashed by hollywood, so the Russians still believe it's insane to cut your cock off and turn into a tranny.
Unlike the western Liberals.

Tranny issues, homo issues, etc. etc. is why they are butthurt against the Patriarchy of the east.

I think he means to say that self realization and free thought is what goes against communism and with those 2 things communism would end it to keep the peace and preserve the ideology.

I don't even know why. They call Stalin a commrade, even if they would clearly go to gulag if he was around. It's like what that kgb agent said was true.

? I'm not defending communism, not a communist either. I'm just more realistic and neutral than the commie hating people here.

The most original definition of communism would be government ownership of the means of production. You might add democratic because Marx clearly wanted the proletariat to have the political power. So when the US government owns Freddie Mac it is in a small way communism, and when half of China gdp is produced state run enterprises its more communism.

But communism is just an economic system, what does it have to do with frre thought and self realization

They all seem to believe that they will be high ranking party members, not useful idiots to be purged. It's very strange.

1 part griotka (Czech cherry liqueur)
1 part vodka (preferably Russian)

>In the darks days of the Socialist regime, it was believed that for every “Utopenej Komunista” consumed, a member of the party drowned—which meant that the more shots one drank, the more of a heroic freedom fighter one became. Pour the griotka on the bottom of the shot glass and slowly top up with the vodka to create a layered effect.

>But communism is just an economic system

Are you >implying an economic system doesn't impact a nation socially? It goes hand in hand with the national consciousness, a free market means a free people.

Communism is not just an economic system just like capitalism is not.

Is the 40 hour work week perfect for any government? Is 40 hours killing us, or preventing us from greater things?
I havent taken this into account this is a good point you bring.
Spain my friend thank you for your input I'm glad I'm not the only one bewildered by this.

Rome had money stupid. they didn't have Jews controlling it.

Marx wasn't russian.

All liberal ideas are contradictory, I think they do this shit on purpose.


Hate speech is anything I disagree with and also violence, therefor I can assault you... but I'm not a fascist...
Communism is as you said Russian and they even fly the hammer and sickle, yet hate everything to do with Russia...

Feminism and Islam, need I say more there?

Islam and LGBT, again, need I say more?

Race doesn't exist, it's just melanin, yet all white people are racist....

"We want 15$ minimum wage" but also open borders and globalization... Hint: if a company can hire Jose to cut their lawn or flip their burger for half of what you will accept, they'll get Jose to do it. This also applys to Indians (red dots) and the healthcare industry, IT, call centers etc that are further up the chain dragging down the middle class wages....

The hate of modern day "extreme" Christians, yet they love the "moderate" Muslim who has even harsher ideas regarding practically everything they stand for.

We're all equal, but yet we have to nerf white test scores so niggers can still get in. We have to have a 1:1 ratio of black and white OR more black in everything from business to media to sports, even though niggers only make up like 20% of the population or less.

Etc.
Etc.
Ad Infinitum

Forgive me my friend I did not mean to Insult you or even assume your stance in your politics. I was merely asking a question as you were the only one so far to be for communism or at least be impartial to it.

basically I say collectives are pretty much meaningless because you can drop out of them anytime you like, whereas he seems to be under the impression that being a part of a collective obligates you to contribute to the cause of the collective

Ok what do I mean when I say you can drop out of a collective?
Right now at this very moment you are a part of the collective of people posting on Sup Forums
However you can stop being a part of this collective by going to a different website
You would still be a part of the collective of people who use the internet which you can drop out of by unplugging your ethernet cable
You may be a part of this collective we call the USA simply by being on soil claimed by this collective but you can drop out of that by leaving the country
See, any obligation you have to stay in these collectives isn't from some kind of moral duty, but from your own desire to be in the collective
You don't post on Sup Forums because you are part of the Sup Forums collective, you are part of the Sup Forums collective because you wanted to post on Sup Forums
I summed up my stance on how collectives are mostly incidental and he didn't really have a response
The only collectives you can't drop out of are the ones of being a living human, but I guess anyone could drop out of that too by going the way of the anhero
tldr. all humans are individuals with free will, any collectives that form are merely by products of this free will being exercised
the eye opening part was he disagreed, he didn't explain how really, but it makes me think
What does he think an individual is? What does he think a collective is?

This was kind of a brain barf but it is about how that conversation went

It's much, much more than that. In Marxism it's completely different from Capitalism socially, spiritually, scientifically, morally, intellectually... Almost all aspects of life would be completely different under communism.

Are you to say communist are only drunken dreamers? I'm sorry if that is not what you infer but that is what I got from the post.
Thank you Slovakia I had learned this earlier in the thread.

>a free market means free people
Kek, because they have the word free in them?

Captialism is an economic system. I could have a capitalist dictatorship without the Bill of Rights. I could have communism with the Bill of Rights.

You have very mistaken ideas about liberals

marxism just means norms and values are centralist and taking care of by the goverment. Meaning people don't need to think for themselves like lefties do. If you are braindead you automatically lean to communism and let others think for you instead. Lack of religion, lack of morals, norms and values will do that to you.

>But liberals hate russians, but love communism.
Russian """"communism"""" =/= Cultural Marxist """"communism""""
Soviet Union was never really communist, but rather a state capitalist country with a heavy nationalist agenda. Others were tolerated, but the moment they begin to chimp out, they get a free trip to GULag. Modern liberals, on the other hand, believe in le borderless world where evul whitey must pay reparations to oppressed minorities and then perform nationalwide suicide. It's two entirely different ideologies.

I think you're confusing politicial and economic systems. I mean communism as in state ownership of business, you seem to mean Soviet style politicial system.

Please go on where do you stand on your platform.

They're not contradictory when you see them as attacking the pillars of Western civilization. The higher-ups send these contradictory ideas down to their useful idiots because it doesn't matter if the idiots have a contradictory ideology or not. It only matters if they destroy. The destruction allows their puppet masters to gain more power.

To add, it was very conservative, borderline fascistic and antisemitic enough for jews to whine even now, after it's dissolution almost 30 years ago.

I mean communism in the Marxist sense. In Marxim economics is inseparable from all the other stuff because he's a materialist.

Your friend seems misguided and lost as to me this post was telling me your friend was merely moving the goalpost to suit his need. I hope your friend realizes his fault.

>paid
A communist society is money less, but as typical communist they don't understand communism

Rusia had the bad experience of communism, but they somehow get redpilled by mighty Putin and now they are far more beyond evolved than other country, some how they kill more islamist and lefties than other country

I see, to you were does the middle man stand?

honestly I'm not very eloquent when I talk or try to debate so I rarely notice when people do that
I kinda suspect that they do it naturally too, subconsciously, without realizing it
I hope he realizes some of his faults too

The other bits there were interesting I was looking forward to talking about those too (talking here meaning ranting)

...

Rant on my friend I myself might be going to sleep soon but I'm sure other friends here would like to debate/relate to you.

I myself don't agree with Putin but I would be lying if I said I wasn't jealous of him and his success.

he is far beyond your understanding thats for sure

I can't say I disagree as he is the head of his country as I am merely a worker bee. If I may ask though, why would you bring that up?

Ok what's your stance on:

Free speech as defined by the US supreme court?

Communism in general?

If femenist, how do you reconcile the blatant rampant oppression of women in Islam? and don't gibe me the bullshit "the hijab is empowerment" argument.


Islam and its stance regarding homosexuality and in Muslim countries where they throw fags off roofs. How do you reconcile your gay pride loving party wanting to open the flood gates to people that want to literally kill you because of who you fuck behind closed doors?

Explain to me how when race is brought up using stats that factor in economic background, niggers still commit 2x as much crime, then your next argument is ALWAYS race isn't real, we're all the same, it's just melanin. Then the very next day we see your twitter feed with you saying all white people are racist. If we're all the same and race is just a construct, how can you make such statements?

How do you propose we raise the minimum wage to your 15$ an hour when we open up the border to 3rd worlders that will work for penny's on the dollar.


How do you reconcile your general disdain of all things Christian, with your love of all things Muslim? The average muslim's world view would make even the most extreme Christian's blush. The only Christian controversy in recent years was over a fucking cake, yet youvery same liberals support Sharia law that would make being a faggot illegal.

How is Affirmative Action NOT racist in 2017? It made sense in the 60's when niggers where still ACTUALLY facing REAL racism and segregation to force them to integrate, but should it not now become a meritocracy? And why must a room be 50% black lest some shit head liberal point out all the white people in the room on twitter? They are a minority, not half of the fucking population.

There's more, but those were the examples I used, please, tell me exactly how those things are NOT contradictory and also NOT a modern liberals position...

Our different buzzwords was an interesting one
We got on the topic of good and evil, and if there is a definitive evil in the world, what is
He posited oppression, I posited tyranny

The core difference between the two was that he implied that it is wrong to let someone come to harm through inaction, while I implied it was wrong to cause someone harm through action
again, neither of us really had a response to each other

>it is wrong to let someone come to harm through inaction
This implies that he should be spending every penny of his disposable income on charity.
You or he might find this interesting sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/

Good night my friends, I had a fantastic time talking about this. It has opened my eyes a bit and made me more aware of a few others. Please do continue to share and post here as when I wake I will be thrilled to read how this continues.
Your friend might have had a rough upbringing. I see many liberals with rough backgrounds use liberalism and communism as their backbone and I suppose play the victim for the lack of words. I personally believe in prevention or redirection rather reaction. Again I hope your friend finds his identity not through the acceptance of others but himself.

He was a mormon when I first met him in high school. He left the church as he became more and more of a druggy
Like many in our group he grew up with divorced parents, rarely seeing his father

Actually in that sense I'm the odd ball out, my parents divorced but I lived with my dad

I know it's just anecdotal but it really does make me hate the divorce courts, all these single moms ruining a generation

Bullshit.

The only way we put an end to 9-5 work is to decentralise work, take people away from the office and allow them to work remotely and keep flexible hours. Capitalism is the only economic system that can leverage technology to make this viable.

Oh hang on, I've just realised that is a lib trying to weasel out of the conclusions drawn from the actual thought experiment utilitarian.net/singer/by/199704--.htm

Interesting catch here I wonder if we can get a response.
Could capitalism improve on the 9-5 work week?

If you think assualting people or that "democrats are the real fascists" meme is true you are the ultimate faggot cuckservative

Fascism ideas, and I'm talking about the real shit not what buzzfeed or dinesh says, are based off of the roman republic just like the founding fathers based the constitution.
>"our founding fathers weren't fascists!!!"
Lmao the founding fathers used famous roman leaders as pseudonames in the federalist papers. Cincinnati was given the name by the founding fathers in honor of Cincinnatus, who was the roman dictator and one of the lead roles in turning the Roman kingdom into a republic.

Pic related is statue of Cincinnatus literally holding a fasces (ancient Roman symbol that fascism is based on) in Cincinnati

I for one sincerely believe it could, but it would need to be a little more like actual capitalism, which would mean privatizing education and cutting back a lot of government programs, namely welfare

Even if we still worked 40 hour work weeks (we probably would) we'd be getting more out of the money our 40 hour work week earned us

That's how it seems to me anyway

I believe our founding fathers were more like Minarchists than Fascists
Granted, there is a healthy overlap between the two, and they were certainly fascist by todays standards

The major boon of capitalism is that as long as you can find a buyer, you can sell what you've got.

In creative and media industries we're already working in virtual offices and floating desks. It's only a matter of time before the workforce becomes totally remote and performance/goal oriented, rather than just going to the office and putting in the hours.

I'm not natsoc, I am a little fascist myself though, I'm not arguing that it's necessarily wrong to use violence against certain degenerate speech, but I don't claim to be NOT fascist, the left DOES. I'm a race realist, white nationalist, sort of fascist, sort of capitalist, right wing millennial christian who doesn't hate pagans even though I disagree with their blood arguments. I hate niggers, muslims and the few kikes who actually pull the strings and in that order. I admire Rome, Hitler was right, the holocaust is a gross exaggeration, the japs and commies were FAR worse even if it WERE true etc, still not a socialist, but I am no enemy to you friend, we just disagree on economics.

>So the idea of communism came from Karl Marx correct?
No. Communism is a movement that preceded Marx.

>Also how can communism even exist when it has plainly failed time and time again?
Because communism is consubstantial to capitalism.