Right, Socialist/Communists, break this down for me please: I honestly just want to understand it all...

Right, Socialist/Communists, break this down for me please: I honestly just want to understand it all.... You can be hostile towards me all you want but I don't think this will get us anywhere.

>How does the Government operate under Socialism?
What IS it involved in and what ISN'T it involved in?
Sorry if that's too vague a question, try and answer as best you can

>Who runs the banks?

>Are people still allowed to own their own businesses?

>How will Tax work?

>Do you see ANY potential for this system to go wrong?
Because I've never heard any Marxist ever point out potential flaws in the Marxist system. I find that to be strange indeed, maybe you can prove that wrong?

by the way:
>not die-hard pro-Capitalist.
>I'm so far off the Left-Right spectrum I don't think I can pin point where I'd belong.
>White Male
>Unemployed
>34
>Not gay
>Not Jewish
>Single

>Socialist/Communists
you get they are fundamentally different economic systems right?

I thought I'd chose a flattering picture of Karl Marx so as to not trigger anyone's anger.

My understanding was that both came from Marxist ideologies? Is that wrong?

Can you explain the differences then?

I think Socialism is the one that is more likely to happen in the west, if any change is going to come at all... I just want to know how I would navigate through such a system, should it actually happen in my lifetime?

yeah but one has complete gov control, on par with what people here call fascism and the other is gov regulated, on par with what people here call democracy.

>and the other is gov regulated.......
So who does control it then, if it is only regulated by the government? No one or everyone?

I don't fully understand the difference between Regulating and Complete Control?

Forgive me for asking what must seem like Childish questions, I'm not very intelligent.

we all already have socialist practices in place.
alot of it is subjective due to the ambiguity of the definitions and more so on how people have used the terms and how they have been used have in turn become what they mean... imo.

I see any tax spent on public services as socialist practices - transport, roads, housing, welfare etc. tax payed.

Communism imo is where the gov is the "free market" (or what that is now) as well as public spending of tax

regulating is through laws and tax brackets and fair work protocols, they still have some room to set their own agreed upon rules etc.
controlled is where it's set in stone.
>btw im not an expert.. obviously

>>How does the Government operate under Socialism?
There will be no government under socialism.

>>Who runs the banks?
There will be no banks.

>>Are people still allowed to own their own businesses?
No.

>>How will Tax work?
There will be no taxes.

>>Do you see ANY potential for this system to go wrong?
No, we're not soothsayers. What we can see though, is the ONLY potential of capitalism: transform into communism through a revolution.

Ok, cool... that makes sense...

So is it Run privately then but the government just regulate it to make sure nothing shitty is going on?

>There will be no government under socialism.
What!!!!!?????

Who is in charge then?

fuck money
fuck gov.
fuck work

if you didnt get that reading Marx you are an idiot

Not according to Marx, Engels, Lenin…

People.

>No, we're not soothsayers. What we can see though, is the ONLY potential of capitalism: transform into communism through a revolution.

having read Any of his work? and fuck you too cunt!

Explain how that works please?

Sorry I quoted the wrong post..

thats my interpretation.
i'm probably wrong though.
the way i see it is that all (as far as i know) countries have a mix of capitalist and socialist policies.
my simple explanation would be
capitalism - no regulations - free market governs itself
socialism - regulated free market
communism - no free market - all business is gov owned and controlled by set standards and laws

How what works? Please be more specific.

There is government in socialism: the socialist state, that enforces the dictatorship of the proletariat ( as opposed to the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie in which we live right now). But there is no government later in communism(stateless), so far only socialism has been reached in the past.

He can't, he's an an-com. He thinks that a small dictatorial goverment is not a goverment. Ask him how will the resources be re-distributed.

Stop embarrassing yourself and go read Marx.

I am certainly not an ancom.

I'm Marxist-Leninist , not Orthodox Marxist

We're talking marxist socialism here, since Communism is the endgame, Socialism under Marxist thought is just how people try to get to Communism

>Who runs the banks?
No banks,
>Are people still allowed to own their own businesses?
No the people own the means of production, ownership of property and business is theft
>How will Tax work?
It's not too decided, you can have tax and you also can have no tax, socialist governments can vary quite a bit in how they go about their buisness
>Do you see ANY potential for this system to go wrong?
Yes, but so does every political thought

But I'm a third posionist, so i'm nationalistic and socially conservative but economically a socialist, however that does not make me a marxist since I don't follow marxist thought if that makes sense to you

Well go read Marx and become a Marxist.

>>How does the Government operate under Socialism?

Well in the early phase it would still exist but just be more democratic. They would probably plan the economy.

>who runs banks.
No money, No banks.

>Are people still allowed to own their own businesses?

No private labor is directly social. All property is collectively owned.

>>How will Tax work?
Probably no taxes except for taking a little off the top of the value created by the workers to repair machines, build new workplaces, etc.

>>Do you see ANY potential for this system to go wrong?

If material conditions aren't right it will fail.

>From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
What if people takes more resources than they needed?
>inb4 they won't

Marx never distinguished between socialism and communism.

Well you just said "People" when I asked you, "who is in charge then?"

I was just asking YOU to expand on what you meant by that... I wasn't trying to be vague

Die, Lenin is crap incarnated on par with Trotsky.

>>From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
This is the upper stage of communism. OP asked about the lower stage of communism, aka socialism.

In charge of what?

Why?

>But there is no government later in communism(stateless), so far only socialism has been reached in the past.
So Communism has never actually been tried.?

Why did so many regimes describe themselves as Communists then?

Ok.
Socialism in a marxist sense in the lower phase of communism. Some people say there is a goverment some say there isn't some people want to abolish money in this stage some don't.

the Communism is the final stage where there is no state everyone works according to there ability and takes according to their need.

both envolve complete collective ownership of property.

>No the people own the means of production, ownership of property and business is theft

Okay, can you tell why that should appeal to me as a system I would want to live under?

Because they don't use logic for their reasoning, no socrates method. They use retarded jew-think. Pic related.

Socialism: From each according to their ability. To each according to their contribution.

None of them did. Union of soviet SOCIALIST republics.

I don't care which stage you commies are on, what will happen to those who took more resources than they need?

>The name implies they didn't identify as communist
Damn. Too hard to argue with.

>Why did so many regimes describe themselves as Communists then?
They didn't, they claimed to be socialist (although that was a lie).

Of course communism was there goal but all of them said they hadn't gotten there yet.

>If material conditions aren't right it will fail.
What do you mean by this?

For instance if you try to go from fuedalism to socialism it won't work. If you try to just have a coup without workers support it won't work.

They had a communist party with the goal of communism in charge but the country, the USSR was a socialist state.

Stupid western would call them communist state, something that doesn't exist by definition.

Please stop clogging up my thread with your petty disputes....

They never can, communism is physically unreachable. It is because of the nature of the world.


The only reason that the USSR lasted so long is because of the constant terror and propaganda. If people have to constantly worry about dying they don't have time to form a unified black market and some sort of currency.

>All property is collectively owned.
already hate your ideology, if i cant own my own home then you can fuck off.

Holy fucking shit dude...

Lets fucking break down here:

I asked "What will the Government actually be doing?"

You Said - "There'll be no Government!"

I asked - "Well who'll be in charge then?"

You said - "People"

I asked - "What specifically do you mean by that?"

>I don't care which stage you commies are on
You are the one asking a question about how society will work several centuries after the revolution. It matters.

>what will happen to those who took more resources than they need?
In the context of your question: what they take IS what they need.

Ok I have no ability and I need a mansion, 2 lamborginis, 5 beautiful wamen with big tits and a year supply of coke.

>what they take IS what they need.
so i cant take more than i need, whos going to stop me?

The peasants dislike your system and took advantage of more than they need. Who would be in charge and what happens to them when they've already took more than they need

How to put it…

There will be no government because the tasks currently fulfilled by the government won't be necessary anymore.

yes, OP here... I have to say... this does not appeal to me in the slightest at all.... but if it's something that would be a better benefit to society on a large scale, i may be talked into it but not bloody likely.

OP you should read "The State and a The Revolution" by Lenin.

And you should be able to defend/explain your ideology without jewish tactics of discourse.

Because your getting shit on. You actually have to have some inner cuck desire to enjoy getting stomped on by the parasite class all

You yourself said your unemployed, even if you got a job working 9 to 5 making computers in a store or something, you get paid a minute faction of the labor and goods you produce only for the boss to come in and soak up the profits. Effectively he's a big fat parasite taking wealth for undone labor and keeping the workers and lower class members of society stuck down there living in shit.

Unions began to get great amounts of power and socialize society for the better and bring workers rights to the forefront but the cheeky capitalists found out you can just export factories overseas or bring in cheap labor to counteract this. Also the fact I'm not okay with a citizen of my own country freezing to death in winter or living in shit for his entire life due to socioeconomic factors while giga factory owner kikes passes millions off to his kids using the very lower class workers labor.

If your a greedy dick who's fine with letting a poor white Brit man go hungry a few days a week cause he can't afford food so you can buy the next model tv every year that's a problem and your probably the bourgeois class then

I have no idea what that would even begin to look like in reality...

How would you achieve a no-government state?

In communism there is personal property( your house, your car, your PC...) Things intended for personal use and gained in a socially fair manner. But there is no private property.

>What is so appealing in your system for me to believe in it?

> YOU ARE A FUCKING GREEDY BASTARD IF YOU DON'T GIVE YOUR HOME TO TYRONE

Jesus christ.
Everything you listed a personal property is capital that can be used to generate more capital.

>Hence, we give government total control of '''private''' property, to make things fair! Then, we'll abolish the very same government! They will give we, the people, power, r-right?!

> YOU ARE A FUCKING GREEDY BASTARD IF YOU DON'T GIVE YOUR HOME TO TYRONE
Now your the one doing kike tactics over-exaggerating things. Your a greedy bastard if you own 10 homes and rent them all out like a Jew, while another person of your country sleeps in a box down a side alley.

Who ever said I was a communist?
>Hence, we give government total control of '''private''' property, to make things fair! Then, we'll abolish the very same government! They will give we, the people, power, r-right?!

WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE SOCIALISM HAS POLITICAL PARTIES WHICH CAN VOTE AND DECIDE ON HOW TO DO THINGS

Yeah but in this ideology being a greedy bastard means essentialy death, what's the line between being a succesful enterpreneur and a greedy bastdard?


Also if it weren't for the possibility of being rich there'd be no fucking economy.

>meme flag

OP here

>Effectively he's a big fat parasite taking wealth for undone labor and keeping the workers and lower class members of society stuck down there living in shit.

Right, a parasite that I've signed a contract with, that says I will do X amount of work for you and YOU will pay me X amount of £ for doing so...

I'm not being forced to work for this person, so I fail to see how this is oppression of any kind.

And exactly HOW is this parasite "keeping me down!!?"

Lets say I will remain Lower class for the remainder of my life:

I would make sure I had children, in which I would install the distinct desire to be as good at their school work as possible, get high marks and go to a college and learn better skills than I did so that they will go on to earn more than I ever did - They, in turn, would do the same for their children - This is how you climb out of this situation, from what I can tell... Not vote for socialism!

>Your a greedy bastard if you own 10 homes and rent them all out like a Jew
why? i worked hard to afford the properties i rent out, why should i not be able to make something off them?

...

Welfare is not socialism. It is capitalist social democracy

...

Yeah I think I can safely say, after hearing what has been said in favor of Socialism, I want nothing to do with it........

>Yeah but in this ideology being a greedy bastard means essentialy death
Well good, Jews and other fuckers who would import Africans for cheap labor deserve death
>what's the line between being a succesful enterpreneur and a greedy bastdard?
Good thing that entire line is moved if it's not already destroyed for a entire new line Socialism

>Also if it weren't for the possibility of being rich there'd be no fucking economy.
Good thing it's a needs based economy and not the never ending wants based economy of needing the new iPhone every yeah consumer cock gusserling land-waste filling garbage we live in today. Also it's pretty simple, those who don't work don't get bread

meme country

>Right, a parasite that I've signed a contract with, that says I will do X amount of work for you and YOU will pay me X amount of £ for doing so...

>I'm not being forced to work for this person, so I fail to see how this is oppression of any kind.

"Work for the king peasant and he might give you a few grains of food", "Hey you signed the contract, if you don't wanna worship him and give him 90% of your crops your welcome to go starve to death or get beheaded"

See you have a choice can't complain now can you?

>I would make sure I had children, in which I would install the distinct desire to be as good at their school work as possible, get high marks and go to a college and learn better skills than I did so that they will go on to earn more than I ever did - They, in turn, would do the same for their children - This is how you climb out of this situation
Everyone thinks that but only a few can succeed into being filthy rich while the rest continue to suffer and live in debt and having their labor stolen

Like I said if your happy to own seven mansions, and say to the poor just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and go start a business. "See I did it by exploiting other people to get me rich" So you do the same go exploit your neighbor.

Marx specifically details the differences between socialism and communism in the manifesto I've read it about five times

why? i worked hard to afford the properties i rent out, why should i not be able to make something off them?
>Who built the house
>Who gathered the materials
>How many workers did you not pay their labors profit for the goods they produced
>The truth is you didn't work hard or you got swindled, you either exploited other people or got enough good goy coins over 50 years of your labor of which you got basically none of that back except for a house you can now rent and fuck over other people.

George Soros dosn't work hard, his money just grows even if he sits on his arse

That's who should be taken out with a time machine

>What IS it involved in and what ISN'T it involved in?

>"Work for the king peasant and he might give you a few grains of food"
There's NO "might or maybe" about it... I WILL be paid for my work, it's a contract.

>"Hey you signed the contract, if you don't wanna worship him and give him 90% of your crops your welcome to go starve to death or get beheaded"

Seriously what the fuck are you on about? You need to strawman that badly that you're larping that what we currently live under is in any comparable to living in the middle ages!!? wew lad!

"Yes, Mr Boss, You pay me X amount but not more than I'm worth because I would like the business I work for to still be there the next day, NOT out of business because I demanded I be paid £100 p/hr!!" Yes, I'm actually OK with that...

If I find one day I'm not so OK with this arrangement, If I truly feel I'm worth more than I'm currently earning I just hand in my notice and try and start my own business of some kind.

>Everyone thinks that but only a few can succeed into being filthy rich

No need to be filthy rich but you can be quite well off or comfortable

>while the rest continue to suffer and live in debt and having their labor stolen

Stolen!!? Holy shit son, sort yourself out... you've really drunk ALL the Koolaids... save some for the others you greedy pig!

I finally get it now...

Gibs gibs gibsa gibs gibsgibsgibsgggggibs

>"Yes, Mr Boss, You pay me X amount but not more than I'm worth because I would like the business I work for to still be there the next day, NOT out of business because I demanded I be paid £100 p/hr!!" Yes, I'm actually OK with that...

>"Yes, Mr Boss, You pay me X amount but not more than I'm worth because I would like the business I work for to still be there the next day, NOT out of business because I demanded I be paid £100 p/hr!!" Yes, I'm actually OK with that...

Now your doing a strawman
1 Mr.Boss pays you a tiny fraction of what you actually create and takes the profits, he justifies this by saying his grandfather built the company or made a clever investment so hope you enjoy living in debt and being lower class scum.
2 Mr.Boss actually pays you as low as possible, if you didn't have minimum wage expect Chinese labor pay outs
3 Unions counteract this, you can thank them for all your workers rights and work hours and holidays and sick pay and everything the employee quite literally had to be starved of money to just accept.
4 Mr.Boss can just hire export his factory overseas or bring in cheap labor to counteract this. Thanks refugee crisis entirely capitalist created and accepted as a good source of future income

It's more like "Mr.Boss can i have a higher wage to afford food this week and to go to my child's graduation, you know since I do make apple iphones and I get like a few dollars an hour"
"No how dare you ask me such a commie thing, go make your own factory then, now get back to work or I'm firing you." Without me the Boss who would pay your paycheck huh?

There is little to no government in socialism.

Socialism is where the state has withered away.

Unions rob people now.

Unions are as bad as Mr.Boss.

>No need to be filthy rich but you can be quite well off or comfortable
As can be in Socialism but for even more people, sure Kikey the kike dosn't own seven mansions and several banks anymore, but Joe the blue collar worker actually can raise a family now and he' got a roof over his head now, rather then paying rent and giving away his labor for practically free

Stolen!!? Holy shit son, sort yourself out
Yes, if I sell a product for a million dollars pay the worker 50k pay all the other costs 100k I make a nice good profit and all cause the worker did it for me, I just sat back and managed a few things so of course I get most of the profits

you've really drunk ALL the Koolaids... save some for the others you greedy pig!

I finally get it now...

Gibs gibs gibsa gibs gibsgibsgibsgggggibs

wow great arguement f a m

wtf i love capitalism now, at last I truly see literally everyone can be a billionaire, and the lower underclasses don't exist at all because only stupid people are poor and middle class

No i was saying unions are good

this is a misunderstanding of socialism that comes from constantly calling scandinavian countries socialist.

Socialism is where the means of production are communally owned either through that magic of communist fantasy or a government entity.

People will voluntarily give up their state-assured resources to achieve a high communal savings rate and empower future construction and progress! :D :D :D

And you are exaggerating and virtue signaling and trying to lay guilt to hide the fact that you're a greedy covetous envious bastard who can't handle when someone has more than you.

>>How many workers did you not pay their labors profit for the goods they produced
i dont employ anyone
>>The truth is you didn't work hard or you got swindled, you either exploited other people or got enough good goy coins over 50 years of your labor of which you got basically none of that back except for a house you can now rent and fuck over other people.
im 23 years old and i worked hard enough in a shitty retail job, saved my money and now own and rent out a house, how exactly am i fucking people over?

No. Socialism was around before Marxism. Marxism is just one flavor of socialism. Basically what sets Marxism apart from other forms of Socialism is that Marxism is internationalist aka ((globalism)). That is why Commies always say communism has never been tried, because they are right. Internationalist Socialism has never been tried. The Soviet Union was the closet attempt but it later turned too nationalist. Like I said there was already many forms of Socialism but Marxism was revolutionary in that it was against having nation states and wanted all working class people to unite regardless of race or nationality. Before that most socialism was socialism in one country. That was the big debate in the Soviet Union. Those who wanted socialism in one country vs those who felt they needed to stay true to Marxism and that the revolution will not be complete until internationalist socialism aka globalism had taken over the world. There is a reason why Marx supported traditionally capitalists stances like free trade which capitalists love. Free trade is globalism and that is the ultimate goal of Communism

Communism and socialism are born out of GREED, ENVY, and COVETOUSNESS and they try to disguise it. They try to convince you that it's better for the whole but really they're just envious and can't handle anyone having nice things.

Well you got swindled in the first place then if the shop paid you that much, they were making way more cash or you brought a detroit tier house, anyway that puts you into the parasite class, since in a Socialist society you would already have a guaranteed house and somewhere to live rather then needing to then go ahead and charge someone to live somewhere accumulating.

Lets put it this way if your 23 and own a house do you NEED another house or is this other house just used to accumulate profit without any care for the lower class or the people who built the house?

You can't have communism without the socialism. Much like a square is a rectangle, not vice versa.

>>How will Tax work?

When socialists and commies try to tell you there will be no taxes, they are being manipulative liars. The fact is that you will be told what job you can have, you will work said job, and you will receive no paycheck, because they fucking take all it! But they don't want to call that what it is, taxes at 100%.

>they were making way more cash
obviously a large multinational company is making a lot of money
>or you brought a detroit tier house
small 3 bedroom terrace that in pretty bad shape, fixed it up and renting it out room by room to students and eastern europeans. still living in a rented apartment until i can afford to buy a second place (which i will then live in)
>anyway that puts you into the parasite class
see above, if i am both renting to other people and renting from other people where do i fall on this scale?

You’re pulling a big strawman out of your ass to make it seem like you have a good argument. Literally anyone who works minimum wage can invest capital and make it grow just by sitting on their ass. You’re assuming anyone who buys a house is a greedy Jew.

>welfare is not socialism
Way to start my day with the most retarded post ever.