>arguing is just a way to defeat your enemies and gain power >truth doesn't matter >only winning matters >train people for money to be master rhetoricians
Why do people act like sophists were bad? They seem redpilled as fuck. And Socrates was a nigger (pic related)
There not. Truth doesn't matter because it doesn't exist. Winning matters because it's the natural law.
Adam Roberts
Yes, winning is the only real good. Everything else is degenerate abstractions.
Lucas Torres
bump
Brandon Martinez
>doesn't exist You cant prove that
Austin Sanchez
>Only winning matters >Lose to Socrates because of the Truth
>Therefore the Sophists were red pilled
???
Sebastian Anderson
Joke's on you, Socrates was a sophist too.
Jordan Flores
DUDE WEED LMAO
Luke Thompson
>Truth doesn't matter because it doesn't exist When you get ill, do you ask a doctor what drug you should get, or do you take any one because "there is no truth"?
Africa is down there, Buba.
Angel Hernandez
>arguing is just a way to defeat your enemies and gain power >truth doesn't matter >only winning matters >train people for money to be master rhetoricians Sounds like Sup Forums
[spoiler]The Sophists get a bad wrap - not necessarily undeseserved, but they were caricatured by Socrates/Plato in order to contrast their philosophical method as superior - a common motif throughout history of thought. The Sophists have some reading value.[/spoiler]
Landon Hall
They didn't lose to Socrates.
Ryder Taylor
>implying you must believe in truth in order to follow a doctors advice
The user you quoted is wrong, you are also wrong. Everyone is wrong.
Except pyrrho, he is correct.
Brandon Russell
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize all of Western philosophy was based on Gorgias.
Carson Sanders
>truth doesn't matter good goy
Ian Stewart
>Africa is down there, I thought it was in your capital city. Can't really tell the difference.
William Garcia
>truth doesn't matter This is a truth claim.
Luke Perez
It doesn't matter, though. So...
Andrew Miller
OP gets away with it? he doesn't, so which is the lie? Ah! It must be "It doesn't matter" is the lie.
David Garcia
ur mom lol you lose ha sick burn m7
Landon Lewis
i won and it kills you
Austin Hall
Only if you assume "truth claim" is something meaningful to begin with, which is begging the question.
Ryan Myers
They're fucking obnoxious. They try that shit with the Spartans or the Persians and they die.
James Wood
no u lost kek try again
Jacob Evans
I declare you the winner.
You are now entitled to fuck his wife and kill his offspring to insure the wellbeing of your own kind
>"Only if" conditional This is predicating another truth claim. Does Sup Forums not epistemology? Pretty sophomore stuff desu.
An old trope, as in the island of Crete: "All Cretans are liars."
t. Cretan
Mason Brooks
>no one ever wants to talk about pyyrho ;-;
Jason Williams
>arguing is just a way to defeat our enemies and gain power >truth doesn't matter, only winning matters
They were just Presocratic Postmodernists.
Brandon Harris
If you're joking, then this is a top-notch joke. If you're serious, you're the joke.
Cooper Nguyen
Sophists were paid tutors in many disciplines including but not limited to rhetoric. Socrates hung out with youths when he wasn't waylaying well-to-do people in the street with word games, and he did it for free. Aristophanes might have thought he was a good representation of sophistry, but he was far from a sophist in the sense it was originally meant.
Jonathan Collins
Thrasymachus sure as fuck did
Adrian Garcia
You see, this is why sophists win. You're boring.
Justin Flores
>1 post by this ID
lmao buttflustered by ataraxia stay certain of things brainlet :^)
Noah Gray
>truth doesn't matter >aesthetics doesn't matter
They're robots user. Not redpilled.
Jordan Morales
Hello newfaggot.
Matthew Sanders
Truth is a consequence of debate and collective agreeance. It's all that matters.
Henry Jackson
Question: Has sophism won anything long-term?
Gabriel Adams
>(((sophists)))
Noah Moore
I'm so fucking mad that you got famous for making up a new word for "satisfaction" and people ate your shit up.
Jayden Harris
>I prefer pretending the truth doesn't exist so I can have fun The epitome of "Blue Pilled"
Lincoln Taylor
Been here longer than you little retard cum head LICe fiend.
Lucas Morales
Spend some time in a Humanities department at the nearest university.
Oliver Flores
>(((sophists))) >redpilled
Jeremiah Moore
Oh my, user, that hurt my fee fees, but thanks for enlightening me.
Landon Miller
Try again.
Carter Long
>Implying winning doesn't mean being defeated by a previous enstablishment
Lincoln Hughes
Are you implying leftist doctrine isn't?
Easton Rodriguez
The sophists basically reached the conclusions of Wittgenstein and the Postmodernists concerning language 2,500 years earlier.
The Sophists basically say language doesn't refer to the real world, it's all self-referencing. Which is the only sane conclusion and what is pretty much accepted as fact now. It's even worst than that. Not only is language strictly self-referencing but your senses, the source of all epistemology also doesn't refer to the real world; anyone with a basic understanding of biology should understand this (aka no one one Sup Forums).
So the Truth of Socrates and Plato is AT best inaccessable, like some thing-in-itself, or at worst non-existent.
Dominic Perez
>isn't long-term Yes. Unequivocally.
Christian Brooks
>Truth of Socrates and Plato is AT best inaccessible, like some thing-in-itself, or at worst non-existent.
And we dont know which, hence skepticism wins! Hurray! Pyyrho was always correct (probably)
Benjamin Smith
top kek
Wyatt Sanders
>real world only thing that is real is math, everything else is distorted by your senses
Jace Wilson
lazy people that could not fend for themselves so they used words to trick others into supporting them. faggot degenerates also.
Benjamin White
Math is representation too dumb head tard. Just call it the noumena instead of mistaking phenomena for the thing-in-itself.
Isaiah Jackson
And what good is 'truth' which can never be accessed? You can't study it. You can't even prove it exists. It's about as useful as trying to answer 'what if everything is a just a dream'
Math only exists in people's mind. Let's take basic geometry. There is no such thin in the world as a perfectly straight line, a perfect right angle, a perfect circle. The Pythagorean theorem, pi, etc. None of these refer to things that exist in the real world. The very concept of numbers is a huge invention.
Grayson James
socrates' philosophy refuted itself by resulting in his suicide...not very life affirming
Adam Hall
Is that so? How do you know math is real? If you argue that you can know things that are not contingent on outside sources then what happens when someone has brain damage? If the math does not exist outside of the mind, then whos to say one mind is more correct than the other?
If, however, you would argue that it is not dependant on the mind, that math exists as some inherent property of the universe then the claim we dont need our sense to experience it would instead be claiming that our minds, as part of the universe, are able to correctly order inherent universal truth that does not require external input but how are you going to be certain our minds are functioning in line with the universe should it exist?
One might be more justified in trusting math, but im not convinced its real.
Andrew Hall
>And what good is 'truth' which can never be accessed? You can't study it. You can't even prove it exists. It's about as useful as trying to answer 'what if everything is a just a dream'
You dont have to be certain an idea is correct to be able to make use of it. The primary benifit of skepticism is that you do not become attached to ideas, you can drift freely from perspective to perspective and go with whatever seems likely with out being bothered by not knowing for sure, since you can never know for sure.
Eli Cruz
1+1=2
Noah Adams
>sophists Sorry how are those cunt any different from postmodernists?
Kevin Gutierrez
Then you should know that spoilers don't work on Sup Forums
Asher Kelly
Math is also a human construct. Truth is a compass point, not a definable destination.
Gavin James
You might as well say the only thing that DOES exist is perspective. Which is the evolution Nietzsche took Kant's epistemology in. He realized the thing-in-itself was totally useless for anything.
Owen Campbell
>which is the only sane conclusion and what is pretty much accepted as fact now. It's even worst than that. Not only is language strictly self-referencing but your senses, the source of all epistemology also doesn't refer to the real world; anyone with a basic understanding of biology should understand this (aka no one one Sup Forums).
Ayden Torres
No 1+1= window
Joseph Powell
One thing that worries me from time to time is how does a person know what they believe. When i say believe, i do not mean in some absolute way that would be impossible as a skeptic, but the general opinion they have on whats probably right-ish, the mundane accepted ideas that one uses to navigate the every day. Your example, that 1+1=2, how do you know you even believe that? Maybe it is appealing to you to believe that, the idea of math is romantic to your mind, some self generating truth, and so we delude ourselves, we twist our experience of existance to allow the otherwise nonsensical concepts of math to seem to make sense, to seem to be in agreeance. Not being able to trust i believe the things i think i believe, that bothers me more than anything else.
James Morales
That is the issue with skepticism. You always have to take a leap of faith to believe something. As you could simply keep doubting. You are correct. There are no absolute guarantees, ever.
Liam Lopez
>You might as well say the only thing that DOES exist is perspective
But thats silly. Absolute truth might exist, there's no justification to say it doesnt.
Oliver Howard
>Your example, that 1+1=2, how do you know you even believe that? The mathematical statement that 1+1=2 is not a matter of belief but of tautology, it's literally the same as saying 2 is 2.
Jackson Peterson
>One thing that worries me from time to time is how does a person know what they believe. you don't, you adjust precedent to the collective will of the people as best as possible. And you consider the strongest memes by natural selection - i.e. the old religious memes, not the new progressive memes which created our hellhole called the modern world.
Charles Brown
Thats the lesson of skepticism, to become ok with that. To be able to live with uncertainty. You dont have truths, you have what seems reasonable enough to work with. A skeptic doesn't reject all ideas, but rather accepts them all to varying degrees. The behavior of a skeptic, the reflex to argue against any idea, is not out of rejecting all ideas, but testing them.
Josiah Scott
Maths only works within the scope of what it can be applied to. It is a TOOL. Not an actuality.
All ideas, ideals, virtues, memes, languages, are tools which we use. You create a compass point using the best tools that fit.
Dylan Ross
Truth is what works, and truth is what doesnt Stop Because you Stop believing
Good luck with gravity
Eli Young
>And you consider the strongest memes by natural selection - i.e. the old religious memes, not the new progressive memes which created our hellhole called the modern world. And this is how we end up in a world full of retarded mudslimes molded by cultural brainwashing rather than reason
Blake Gray
Forms of Logical Reasoning: 1. Deductive: Logical conclusion based on premises/statements. Validity is making sense logically based on given premises. It is sound if the statement is valid and the premises are correct. Sound conclusions ideal.
2. Inductive: Inherently uncertain, but more likely (credible) given the premises. Takes the forms of generalization, statistical syllogisms, analogies, causal inference, and prediction. Necessary given common sense for heuristic reasons. Bayes Theorem of conditional probability is a common type. Bayesian inferences are used for criminal burden of proof, AI, and statistics. Cogent conclusions ideal.
3. Abductive: Seeks simple and likely explanations. Occams Razor. Pragmatic maxim: Consider what effects, that might conceivably have practical bearings, we conceive the object of our conception to have. Then, our conception of these effects is the whole of our conception of the object. Excellent source of hypotheses and a prioris to be tested.
Kayden Howard
You cant know even that. A tautology depends on accepting a certain fundamental universal consistency. You can not say for certain that a thing is itself, it just seems very likely.
Elijah Morales
Lesser decision making tools: 1. Heuristics: A sufficient approach to problem solving, learning or discovery. Practical in nature. Takes the forms of rules of thumb, educated guess, intuitive judgment, stereotyping, and common sense. Trial and error is a common form. The procedure and method are heuristics in action. Used in psychology, marketing, economics, philosophy, and the law. Main critique is that it makes the user sound dumb. Pareto principle applied a priori would be a heuristic.
2. Defeasible reasoning: Rationally compelling, but not deductively valid. Indefeasible reasons are valid. The premises upon which the decision is made could possibly be false. Prima facie et ceteris paribus. Used in ethics, law, philosophy, AI, and linguistic conventions. Non-empirical investigations such as progress in a lexical/syntactic process, computational progress, and progress in adversarial or legal proceedings. Shorthand for preconditions, best move so far, and procedural results. May make use of precedence and specificity.
3. Rhetoric: Counterpart to logic and politics. Three persuasive appeals of logos, pathos, and ethos. Five canons of invention, arrangement, style, memory, and delivery. Argumentation and analysis.
4. Dialectic: Discourse between at least two people with differing views who desire to find truth through reason. Contrasted to metaphysical methods that leave the subject matter in a vacuum. Naive dialectic is based on intuition and personal experience. Idealistic dialectic German Idealistic method further refined by Hegel. Materialistic dialectic is Marxist. Take the forms of the Socratic method, religious argumentation (eg pilpul), Hegelian, Marxist, etc. Socrates considered it to be reason and logic in discussion. Rare method used in the Anglosphere instead being found mostly in continental European intellectual culture.
Dominic Moore
>Maths only works within the scope of what it can be applied to. >It is a TOOL. Not an actuality. Math can be applied to literally everything, the statement that mathematics is a human invented tool is a belief, not an actuality.
Blake Reed
That is recursive by definition.
Juan Parker
The fascist mistake >natural selection >if you ignore whos in power now
What you mean is just the myths that have lasted the longest, you wouldnt accept the new even if it replace the old
Alexander Torres
You can't say for certain that the value 1 is equal to the value 1? You think that if you believe hard enough 1 + 1 = 3?
Wyatt Reyes
rappers are the modern day sophists. notice how they are all whiny and shit these days and like to act like they know shit about shit because they can sing a few poems?
Christian Kelly
>wow did you just seminar on this shit? you must really be a faggot OP
Camden Morris
A rap battle is a rhetorical dance whereas a feat. contains the spectre of dialectic.
Andrew Johnson
This is how calamity happens and how people suffer horrible lives and death. People who lie because they love to and because they gain anything out of it or just because have very little to do with people who do it to avoid death or destruction. Lying is for weak faggots. You're weak fags.
Kayden Anderson
no _ 1+1 window _
Landon Edwards
>You think that if you believe hard enough 1 + 1 = 3?
If 1+1 can not ever be 3 then math exists external to the mind and is a real thing somewhere which makes it suspect. If math is true because it is a system entirely defined internally then 1+1 can =3 if i think it does.
Josiah Long
Math, like language, represents things with symbols. Some of these things exist physically others merely conceptually. The point is that any word or mathematical formula is only as good as an innate truth condition that it represents.
>people long ago realized you cant know things >everyone ignored it wew
Some try to argue against it, they say simple things like 'claiming you cant know something is claiming knowledge of something'. This is a bad argument however, because the claim is not that truth doesn't exist, nor is it a claim that there is some innate property to truth that makes it impossible to be known, it is just a claim that its impossible to really verify something, so you may know true things, lots of them, but if you cant check its all suspect in the end. Unfortunately the value of a truth depends on you being able to know it is one.
Brayden Mitchell
I don't know user would you consider snake oil salesmen to be the ultimate redpill?
Elijah Murphy
I think many of these morons who go on about how "math is just a language" and "hurr durr everything is a tool created by humans" are the kind of people who would study something like the Hilbert system, derive not(A --> A) and accept it.
When you accept contradiction as truth, you can derive everything, and therefore nothing means anything.
Might as well kill yourself at that point. It's not like you're of any use to anyone.
Poverty of the stimulus anyone?
Evan Russell
>When you accept contradiction as truth, you can derive everything, Sounds like the power of a god to me :^)
Nathan Phillips
Truth exists. It is what is measured. A sword is sharp. It cuts. A sharp mind cuts just as well. Sharp looks and sharp wit are like a stiletto to the heart of any human being.
If there is no truth it is that you are to blind to see it. Might makes right. A sword cuts. Words cut. All things die. That is truth.
Wyatt Sanchez
>>truth doesn't matter They got it right all along. The only thing which matters is perception.
Nathaniel Brown
It pretty much is sophistry. That being said if you consider two or more singers collaborating on a particular song to be in the common pursuit of truth then describing it as dialectical would make sense.
Sebastian Kelly
>truth instead should be based on utility, and you should believe things just because they're useful... you wouldn't want to be useless would you? wow... really made me think