In the greater scope of the Nasuverse, is Kayneth all that...

In the greater scope of the Nasuverse, is Kayneth all that? He talks himself up as the ultimate magus and side material says he's incredibly powerful. But he was PATHETIC in F/Z.

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I just think he was horrible at strategy, his mage skills are incredible though, possibly surpassing the Tohsaka house.

He was one of the best mages from the most prestigious families. So from a "Ground Up" perspective yeah, he's hot shit.

"Greater scope of the Nasuverse" is a problematic angle though. because that scope includes Servants, Dead Apostle Ancestors, True Magicians, Types, and Void!Shiki. Compared to all that Fast Wheels-kun is trash, but then again so are 99% of the characters

Aside Bazett, he was probably one of the strongest mages.
Remember he got Alexander stolen from him and he honestly might have won if he never lost the relic.
He only got rent thanks to Kiritisugu's hax bullets.

I just wish he would've stalemated Tohsaka so we could actually see a traditional fight between mages. All the fights we've ever seen are exceptions to a 'normal' which is never actually shown to us.

He was a top tier magic scientist and teacher. Not a battle mage.

Nasu said that Illya was a much better and more powerful magus.

Also, Kayneth's imouto is better than him.

>he honestly might have won
against kerry or gil? no

Gil lost to much weaker enemies already. And Kerry would stand no chance if this dumb fag took him seriously.

>And Kerry would stand no chance if this dumb fag took him seriously.
It would have been harder, but if you remember, Kerrytugu's whole schtick is killing Magi.

Thanks to shit writing and magi being written as retards.

I think Nasu? said that if he used Diarmuid in a specific way he'd have won

Literally a fucking nothing compared to the actual top tier of mages in Nasuverse.

Gil loses to weaker enemies that happen to have the perfect trump card against him.

Illya had more raw power especially in Fuyuki but nasu also said that magi like Kayneth or Tokiomi would just cut her off from the land to defeat her. Illya has shittons of raw power but Kayneth is a lot of power with a lot of skill.

Keeping Alexander would have fucked him over even more. He would not tolerate his shit and have been forced to use seals just to keep him in check

It's also said in the material that gil could have won the war in one night

He did.

Kayneth is just a typical example of "I'm so great" character written in a way that makes him fail miserably so fags and losers can feel good about the mean asshole getting fucked hard.

Exactly.
>How should I defeat my opponent, an assassin who specializes in killing magi?
>I know! I'll walk through the front door of his house, announce my presence, and challenge him to a duel!

His issue, like that of almost everybody in Zero and SN, was that he got to fight against his "natural enemies".

Kayneth was an upfront guy. 1v1 battles wouldn't have been an issue. If he had fought against Shirou, he'd have trashed him.

But then he got to fight against Kerry who, surprise, was his natural counter due to being a stealthy fuck with gadgets.

The Nasuverse is less about how strong you are but more about which enemies you fight and what your compatibility with them is.

>nasu also said that magi like Kayneth or Tokiomi would just cut her off from the land to defeat her

No.

He said they could maybe win if they did it.

Looking as how fucking stupid they acted in the series they would just face her in a honorabru magi duel and die in 10 seconds.

and Gil "could have" won against Shirou if he wasn't retarded and wore armor

Could Tokiomi beat Kayneth in a 1v1 final destination?

He was better than Rin's retarded dad. But Rin had more talent than him. Duel between them would be interesting.

Considering how this is the founding principle of every fight in the franchise, it sure is amazing just how many stupid faggots latch onto "MUH POWERLEVELS" and ignore all talk of anything otherwise

No. Melloi is more powerful and has advantage vs fire users.

Adolescent Tohsaka vs. Kayneth wouldn't be a fair matchup. Kayneth is too strong for her since she's still in training and also destitute and lacking the materials her family uses in their magic.

Adult Rin would be a much more interesting fight, though the odds would be all but reversed from when she was a kid.

It has more to do with bad writing really.

Was pic related overall as dumb and weak as he seemed when his strategy against a magus was to throw bees at him

He's a good magus, but having skills at magic and being good at combat are totally different things. Kayneth got himself killed by assuming that all his opponents fought battles according to the rules he was used to.

Kariya was both dumb and weak, and it didn't help that the crest worms were driving him insane.

>Zelretch

I don't know how true it is but I've heard it claimed he was literally brain damaged by the time the war began, and he wasn't capable of brain functions high enough to develop proper strategies or, more importantly, just tell Tokiomi his daugher is in danger living with Zouken

When he walks into the Einzbern Mansion, encased in a living metal bubble, it sorta show cases it.

Kerries entire mage killer stick is literally bait and switch.
Do they have projectile shields?
Do they have E-D grade endurance reinforcement, to make them bullet prof?
Even if the answer is both of those questions are yes, all he do is to pull out the Luger and fire.

The only "mage killer" in his entire arsenal is that he bothers to trap, overkill with explosives, the special bullets and the barrier breaking.
And thats the problem. He is doomed if whatever he fights, fights back.

Zelretch is on a totally different level. Comparing a top-tier DAA and True Magician to a regular magus isn't even meaningful.

All Kayneth would need to overkill Kerry, is to change the modus of his Mercury sphere.
If it inherently was bullet prof, he wouldn't be so fucked.

That's the Matou family worms for you. Kariya was lucky to survive the implantation process at all.

Kerry vs Aoko, Lorelei or Alice would be absolutely hilarious.

Rin looks way better with her hair down. Long pigtails a shit.

Yeah, next let's make him fight Altrouge or ORT.

C'mon now user.

>Touko: gem jew edition

Her series would be great.

Wouldn't those bees be a huge problem if they bit/stung someone though, I mean look at them.

It would make for a bizarre story. It'd pretty much come down to whether he could get the drop on them and sneak in a killer blow, since he wouldn't survive any direct confrontation.

Well sure, but he threw them at a guy whose specialty is WALLS OF FIRE

They're dangerous to regular humans. To an actual mage they're a joke.

Get in the fucking box !

This. Any mage who could set up a proper defensive barrier (i.e. any mage with basic competence) wouldn't need to fear the bug swarm. The Matou family bug magics aren't really that suited for open combat, anyways.

I can see him trying to fight someone like Alice and his bugs are just hitting a wall while she looks at him with that disappointed as fuck look of hers.

Totally unrelated, but does anyone know what relation the Types have to the Root? Also, does every planet have an Ultimate One?

>what relation the Types have to the Root?
Literally none, the Types don't come from Earth, and the Root is from Earth

We already know at least dozens of magi who would completely rape him in combat. He's like Alba, top tier lab magi who's shit at real combat.

So anyways, is Reines his sister? Cousin?

>does every planet have an Ultimate One?
Yes.

No you colossal moron, the Root is the origin of all existence in the universe.

Everything has its origin in the Root. This is true of every star, planet, and every lifeform on every planet.

His sister

Not every planet has an Ultimate One, Gaia does not because reasons so it had to 'borrow' the Moon's Ultimate One.

Different user here, but what material do the Types actually show up in? I've played F/SN, F/HA, and Tsukihime, and watched F/Z and Kara no Kyoukai, and I'm wondering where to find all the expanded universe shit. I know there's a bunch of written side material, but I don't know where to start.

TYPEs are only in Notes.

>possibly surpassing the Tohsaka house
The Tohsaka are shit though. Only Rin is better than usual.

There's references to Crimson Moon in Tsukihime though, and he's a Type.

Is Lord El Melloi II Case Files good? Is anyone translating it?

According to the Fate/Apocrypha material, she's Kayneth's younger stepsister.

Well yeah, he's literally TYPE-MOON, the series' namesake.

Kayneth is a 9/10 magus with a 9/10 lineage and mystic code. Unfortunately his privileged (sheltered) upbringing left him conceited and without any real appreciation for what a 'war' really is.

In a Grail War with only other proper magi in it, he would perform excellently without a doubt. Unfortunately, Grail Wars are a joke and magus killers always seem to find their way into them.

He only learned the desperation and determination necessary to win after losing his magic circuits, and by then it was already too late for him.

Nips like it and I saw a lot of praise.

This. Before Rin, the Tohsaka house had a short history (by magus standards) and wasn't blessed with much talent. Their only claim to fame is that Zelretch was their founder's master.

Kayneth deserved better than a shit Servant, a shit fiancee and a shit delivery service.

youtube.com/watch?v=csBZLd66Bow

Though it should be noted they weren't shit tier. They were just depressingly average. Zelretch viewed them as a family whom nobody notable would likely ever come

There's someone at Beast's Lair translating, I think. Not too sure on the details.

This. Kayneth doesn't have any exposure to the world outside of Clock Tower magus politics, so his assumptions about the Grail War were wrong to begin with.

Apparently anyone actually surviving their training with Zelretch is actually a major claim to fame, though. Zelretch liked him enough to give him the blueprints to his gem sword as 'homework', literally the chance to develop their own personal tool of the Second Magic.

Gave him a magic trunk that can contain infinite stuff in a pocket dimension too.

And a kaleidostick. But that was more of a prank.

Why the fuck does Pluto have a Type anyways? There are literally hundreds of Pluto sized dwarf planets in the Kuiper belt.

Pluto is a fucking planet stop triggering me

Well they might all have Types too.

Now if you wanted to ask me how anyone on earth knew where each Type came from once they saw them descending from the sky, I'd be at a loss.

Wait does that mean there's a nigh-infinite number of Types ?

Potentially. I mean there's nothing saying the sun doesn't have a Type, for example.

There are only as much as the traditional planets of the solar system (that means including Pluto). When Gaia died, it called for humanity to be wiped out as its last request to all the other planets, and they answered Gaia's call with their TYPEs, of which there are only 8-9.

If we're talking purely about Magi, he's more or less upper mid-tier. Taking Magicians like Zelretch and Aoko out of the equation, as well as Dead Apostles like Roa and Servants like Medea, Fastwheels is still inferior to the likes of:
>Willy Wonka
>Ciel
>A hypothetical future Rin who's reached the peak of her potential
>Barthomeloi Lorelei

In terms of sheer genius, he's also inferior to Sion (who, as an Alchemist, isn't quite the same kind of Magus as the others).

From a combat perspective, there are even more Magi who are better, but combat doesn't necessarily equate to one's rank as a Magus. Shirou could probably beat him, but he'll never be the better Magus.

There are also wild cards like Ilya, who isn't really a proper Magus since she functions somewhat differently from them.

Incidentally, while Willy Wonka is a very high tier Magus, apparently his combat compatibility against Fastwheels is poor.

It's not, get over it.

True Magicians aren't necessarily good magi though.

Aoko's fucking terrible, all she's good for is fight magecraft. Being a magus is about more than just being able to shoot big shiny beams around. Ironically that seems to be why Caster Medea is apparently the greatest threat to humanity out of all the Servants in the 5th HGW, she's on such a higher level than every other magus that even modern Magicians don't stand a chance against her.

>american education

Nasu is a hack. With that out of the way, I think he servers somehow as a foil to Shirou, in the sense that this guy is all magical studies and potential, the "correct" archmage archetype, and then he gets jobbed by a dude with a submachinegun.

Doesn't having the ability to use True Magic make her inherently better, though? I mean, True Magic is a major goal for mages just short of the Root itself.

this guy was a fucking joke why do people hype Cornelius up.

Not in Aoko's case. In her case she just got lucky that she basically stumbled upon it.

How can reaching the root be a major goal if it means not being able to come back anyways? Isn't dying and your soul returning to the root functionally the same thing?

Not really. Aoko's ability to use the Fifth is totally independent of her actual skill at magic. She's a shoddy magus with very little talent beyond fighting, but her ability to use the Fifth turns her into an unparalleled destroyer.

If you were to look at all the magi in the world, Fast Wheels would probably have ranked in the top 2 or 3%. His skills were so impressive he managed to alter the capabilities of the Holy Grail circuit after just a few weeks of study.

He was more of a book mage however than a warrior mage, and he had bad luck that he went toe-to-toe with someone who specialized in assassinating warrior mages.

If Kayneth had had Iskander like he wanted, and by doubling up Iskander's mana thanks to his alterations to the circuit (letting his wife also give mana), he probably would have been able to win the Holy Grail War.

But again, even then he might still have lost to Kerry - scissors beat paper, even if you have a phone book.

It was given to her by her grand-pa. He's the amazing magus. She's canonically mid-tier at everything else which is why Alice is mentoring her.

The point is to reach the Root yet not get swallowed up. That's why there are so few True Magicians -- it's almost impossible to get there and still come back.

It's a dwarf planet now, the "not a planet" meme is long dead.

Oh right. I haven't read her VN yet so my knowledge about her is mostly limited to the Tsukihime prologue and what little I've pucked up from these threads.

True Magic isn't magecraft.

Aoko was just born further ahead on the track to the Root than most magi, but if she was ever forced into the position of needing to start further back, she would lack all of the foundation necessary to lay fresh rails to the Root that talented magi already possess.

This. Beyond Kiritsugu, though, Gil is still a natural counter for Iskander. Iskander's Reality Marble can't survive Ea.

He was next in line to become the director of the Sponheim Abbey, and as far as Magic Circuit count and quality goes, he's one of the highest and the series. Just in terms of talent alone, he was one of the best, with tremendous talent in a large variety of fields. Touko and Araya are specialists. They're not necessarily the best, but they have one field that they're better at that anyone else. Araya's the best at bounded fields, while Touko's the best at dolls.

While Alba's power as a magus was great, he was ultimately an inferior fighter compared to Touko and Araya. But the thing is being able to fight well is not an indicator of one's talent as a Magus. That's why even though Shirou is able to recreate Noble Phantasms and use them proficiently, he will never be more than a fifth-rate Magus.

Basically, you don't become valedictorian by fighting good.

Why doesn't Iskandar just summon all his troops on top of Gilgamesh at the start?

Humans are basically shit tier in Fateverse in the first place, so the modifier to that statement that is unstated is basically "I am strong (for a human)".

That's why in nearly all Type Moon verses people always say that humans can never surpass the odds and beat a race stronger than them. It is heavily unusual.

For perspective, the ranking system is as follows:

Entities (Alaya, Gaia) > Divine Spirits = Types >>> Most Servants = Most Dead Apostle Ancestors = Phantasmal Beasts (Noble Phantasm Tier) >>> Dead Apostles = Most Magi/Enforcers (Mystic Code Tier) > mindless magical beasts > regular humans

The Magicians are failures. They reached the Root, but they never actually went through the door. They made a path, but they never actually went inside. True Magic is cool, but it's not the ultimate goal. It's more like a booby prize.

>Incidentally, while Willy Wonka is a very high tier Magus, apparently his combat compatibility against Fastwheels is poor.

Isn't this just elemental rock-paper-scissors? Alba's fire attribute probably fares poorly against Kayneth's dual wind-water attribute.

And Illya's a homunculus with a ludicrous number of magic circuits, so comparing her with humans isn't really meaningful.

Because then they get swords to the face.

Oh come on, hundreds of guys on one dude and not ONE of them can stab him in the face before a sword hits them?

It's not even that. Ilya was born with innate knowledge of thaumaturgy. Furthermore, she doesn't actually use spells. Her Sorcery Trait is "Wish", so when she does something, all she's doing is wishing for a certain result to occur. As long as that wish is within her capacity to perform, it'll happen.

Except that Ciel has Roa's knowledge and skill.

He's near top tier as a magus. Same raw power as willy wonka, but with more Mystic Codes and shit.

Dude's got shields too you know.

He can't. The RM is based on the idea of a fair fight and true conquest. It always spawns the enemy a fair distance away organized in clear battle formation, as seen with Assassin.