All Jojos are self-inserts

>All Jojos are self-inserts
>but Shirou isn't
Fucking explain this shit fatefags.

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I thought the jojo MCs were based of american celebrities.

Who cares what they think. Fate is shit. That's why it's on its way out. UBW killed all discussion. Thank goodness.

Why is Sup Forums so obsessed with self-inserting?

>JoJo and Fate
>edit of a 3D reaction image
This thread belongs on Sup Forums.

None of the JoJo MCs are self-inserts, JoJo is basically the antithesis to shitty shonens and shittier MCs.

Jonathan, Joseph, Jolyne, and Johnny especially are some of the greatest action series protagonists ever written, and one of them has influenced many different genres and demographics of anime massively.

When you watch JoJo, you don't self insert and try to imagine yourself as the characters, it's like you're getting to observe some really awesome people do really incredible stuff. If anything the side characters are the self inserts for The Viewer, and not the MCs.

But no one mentioned videogames except for you. This doesn't add up.

Don't bother. He's one of those guys, who get triggered by anything and everything.

None of the jojos have actual developments like Shirou.

Where do you think Shirou comes from?

Shirou doesn't get any development, he stayed retarded, proud to be retarded, and got rewarded from being retarded in 2 out of 3 routes.

Fate is an amazing story with the best magic worldbuilding (that is even more expanded with the other stories from Type-Moon), very layered storytelling broken in 3 routes, where each one introduces plot points, characterization and foreshadowing for the twists that appear in the next, and each route is focused on different aspects. It's a story that exceeds in having tons of well-written twists (you MUST play the routes in order and also look at the Servants' stats to understand their abilities, otherwise you may be thinking there are asspulls), great themes of altruism, justice, giving a meaning to life, morality, what is evil (in a unique execution, you'll know what I mean in Heavens Feel), redemption, responsibility, etc., and all the important characters are excellent, although only some of them are fleshed out immediately in the first route, most take time. The fights are amazing and well detailed, and the effects and soundtrack are impressive. And of course the use of interactive elements, with many choices that lead to unexpected and revelatory bad ends

>Staying true to his ideals is being retarded
wew lad

We're talking about development, look at the previous post. Staying true to unrealistic ideal is the antithesis of development. Stop moving the goalpost fatefag

Jonathan, Jolyene and Johnny went through changes. Other Jojos like Josuke and Giorno have backstories that explain why they are the way they are.

Being dynamic is not a necessary because not all stories are about characters going through dramatic changes.

looks like copypasta

>lots of text = copy pasta

>Falseflagging with Jojo
Fuck you

What's this then?

What else do you expect with fatebabies anyway? Their self insert harem protag can't even carry his own show like all Jojos do.

To be fair, some Jojo carries the part better than others.

That's nonsense. In Fate, his character development was in his bonding with Saber & looking into her past. In UBW, his character development was getting confronted with literally his future self & ending up with a more realistic version of his ideals. In HF, we find that he abandons those ideals for his loved ones & that's it. His desire to protect his loved ones was something always there even in the other routes.

Both are shit, now fuck off.

This implies that abandoning those beliefs are the only way forward. That's like saying that the only way Jotaro can develop is if he abandons his friends & becomes evil.

How can one even compare JoJo and Fate?

>How can one even compare JoJo and Fate?

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There doesn't need to be any explanation. Fate is a self-insert work. Go to /fgo/. Someone will tell you about it.
Anyone telling you otherwise are the same as those idiots who still don't want to accept that Nasu called FSN a shonen work.

Staying true to stupid ideals, no matter how beautiful, is retarded and stupid.

Fatefags always say that Nasu doesn't know what he's talking about. It seems like Fate has already became the God's gift to humanity that surpassed the author himself. So Nasu's interpretation is meaningless.

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Please stop

Well at least jojotards aren't that delusional as fatefags.

HOW is it bait when Nasu himself said that Fate (and Tsukihime) are self-insert works?
HOW is it bait when Nasu himself said FSN was a fucking shonen, not seinen?

Jojo is just a series having fun. Fate takes itself too seriously at times.

F/sn would be more interesting if Joseph replaced Shitrou as the MC. Imagine Joseph ineracting with Rin and Gil he'll fucking piss off all fateshit characters.

No jojo are sel-inserts unless you think thta a successful and strong guy is like you?

I am a fatefag and Shirou is a fucking self-insert, shit should be fucking obvious. Who the fuck would think otherwise?

Same people who think seibah is a deep character.

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source: my ass

>baiting 2 of the most cancerous fanbases in a single post.

Well done *tips fedora*

>it's a jojofags and fatefags have a meltdown and scream bait loudly at each other

It makes me happy knowing that mods will go through this thread and cleanse Sup Forums of almost two dozen idiots

The Secret of Mahoutsukai no Yoru's Birth, TYPE-MOON Ace 2
tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html

There wasn't any bait in the statement made by OP at all.

They're all inserts.

read the thread

>doesn't mention Josuke, the best JoJo

I haven't experienced much of the Fate franchise, but I kind of assume that the whole "you get an ancient mythological hero as a familiar" concept was inspired by Stands. Kind of like how Shaman King, S-Cry-Ed and especially Persona brazenly ripped off the concept.

That's not how you spell Joseph

>Make a bait post and try to get two large fanbases to brawl

I like your style.

Sorry senpai, but jolyne is best jojo.

J-O-S-E-P-H

>This thread

Are you a retard? Do you even know what a self-insert is? You can't self-insert as Shirou, period. Hell, in the VN you have to choose the opposite of what you, the reader, would do in that situation if you want to stay alive. Common sense choices end in dead and bad ends.

i only self insert as women, and Jolyne was Difficult

>Common sense choices end in dead and bad ends.

That's pretty common in VNs though. Hell even in the earliest text adventures shit's already like this. Otherwise it would be too predictable. It's just common game design that has nothing to do with the character building.

I can't believe anybody with a little bit of taste can like Shirou. He single-handedly ruined any potential Fate franchise had. They should remake Fate with Rin as main character.

Fate was by Type Moon, right? They made Melty Blood and that's a fun game, so it gets a pass. Jojo has no fun games aside from Heritage, and the fanbase and anime fans are absolute cancer, trying to weasel into every fucking thread.

you fucking destroyed that FAKE user. he was a tripfag in disguise.

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Nice falseflagging

Shirou is amazing though

F/SN is just as epic as it is because he is the main character

Because people that hate themselves can't stand the fact of characters being jovial or competent.
It's pretty much the same reason they think "suffering" animes are mature.

Nobody wants to be Shirou.

Shirou's crazy. He's the guy who wakes up, goes for a 10KM run, eats a simple breakfast, goes to work, comes home and studies.

What does he want to do with his life? He wants to be an aid worker, or a UN peacekeeper. I wouldn't wish that life on my worst enemy, fuck. I want to get through life by doing the minimum amount of work for the most amount of money I don't deserve.

It would honestly really suck to be Shirou. Like, what is it about him that you would enjoy? The dead parents? The dead foster-father? The mindset that makes his life a living hell?

>All Jojos are self-inserts
I don't think I've ever heard this

Yeah, I could never dream of being that fabulous. I once got into a fistfight in a Rastafarian clothing store, that's the closest I've got.

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Every Jojo is much better than Shitrou.

He gets to fuck the waifus.

He had super sekrit sword chuuni power, got a super hot fiercely loyal foreigner with DFC thrown at him, and got to go along Teenage Chuunibyo Magical Adventure.

That's all you need to be a self insert vessel for otakus. They want to be lifted out their mundane sad life, be a hero chuuni with dark past, and got to fuck the waifus and beat the big bad.

tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html
>Nasu: In terms of the main topic, I hope people will feel like they have just watched a great movie after playing the game. Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters.

>Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios

>projecting yourselves as the heroes

>ITT:Battle of cancerous fanbases.

>Nobody wants to be Shirou.
Nah man, I wanna pass through my enemies by being autistic and retarded without consequences.

I also wanna fuck a qt blone girl with a royal status calling me master, the popular girl in my school, and the submissive slut.

Johhny>Josuke=Shirou>Joseph>Jolyne>Jonathan>>>Shit>>>Jotaro=Giorno

Haven't read JJL yet.

Is that the realistic view of Shirou's "suffering"? He has good life compared to mine desu.

Only Shiroufags brought that up.

Well that's just your opinion man.

I sure as fuck want to be Shirou instead of myself because at least I get to fuck Rin in the ass. And living with an strong ideal like that is at least more meaningful than what I am right now anyway. I don't care about suffering or die for that to be honest. Real life is already like that minus the waifus and interesting world setting. So why the fuck not?

And why are you people so against the idea of "self-inserting" anyway? Why would you respect a character if there's nothing at all relatable or desirable to you? Why would you look up to Shirou staying true to his ideal if you never ever wanted one yourself?

>Nasu's words
>meaning anything
>when he retcons then time and time again

>self-insert as a gay man
>i'm gay now guise
>nice butt, fagg.

Everything about jojo is fucking gay.

Projecting yourself just means going inside their head and living their story through them, which is what happens in Tsukihime and Fate, none of Nasu' VN have a self insert protag you can full control, they have very well defined characteristics

If you self insert into Shirou like and , it just means you're doing it wrong

Why is storytelling so obsessed with making characters relatable to their audience?

>none of Nasu' VN have a self insert protag you can full control, they have very well defined characteristics

Well that is like most VN though. By your definition the only self-insertable characters are the faceless non-existent MCs whose sole purpose is dicking. Those exist in nothing but nukige.

And how do you "rightfully" self insert into a character anyway? One can always self insert into a character if it's relatable or desirable. It doesn't have to have no personalities at all to achieve that.

I would trade my life in exchange for Shirou's.

>If you self insert into Shirou like user and user, it just means you're doing it wrong
Otakus self-insert for that very reasons.

>none of Nasu' VN have a self insert protag you can full control, they have very well defined characteristics
HAREM MANGA MCs all have very well defined characteristics and you CANNOT control them at all. Because manga (and light novels) have zero choices for you to choose. Because you just read it.

And everyone considers them self-inserts. Your criteria for non-self-insertion makes no sense at all. VNs have more choice than manga/LNs, allowing for greater insertion than otherwise.

They aren't though, you falseflagging nigger

Sup Forums has a very broad definition of "self insert characters".
Some characters are obviously meant to be extremely relatable, and that MC is super special/all the girls love him in an effort to pander to a "certain" audience who like that. This is Sup Forums's most basic definition. However, chances are that all male main characters are pandered to to a certain extent. That's why demographics exist.

Actual self-insert characters (ones that you were meant to pretend to be as) only exist in nukige. Yes, some faggots actually self-insert into anime but those that do probably aren't going to just self-insert into terrible low budget battle harem adaptations.

Therefore, its fucking pointless to use "self-insert" as an insult because its a buzzword. Try something like "This character's personality isn't interesting" or "This anime panders more than it tries to tell a good story"

Yes. I don't see why some people give the phrase itself such a strong negative identity. It just means that you want be the character and experience things yourself.

Whether the character is well written or not is irrelevant. Like a well built fantasy world can make people want to be in the story to try out things themselves. And that's how Disney works. If otakus want to self insert into some shitty haram world that's because they have shit taste themselves.

Then they're doing it wrong

Anyone can self insert into Shirou if they want or any other character really, but the story was not build with that in mind

for example, people who say this don't really understand what Shirou, as a character, is all about.

> And everyone considers them self-inserts.

That's only the case when these characters are basically blank pieces of paper with a few generic qualities here and there

> VNs have more choice than manga/LNs, allowing for greater insertion than otherwise.

You just contradicted yourself here

True, it's lame. Plebs want to "relate" to characters all the time and bitch when they can't see their ugly mugs reflected in everything.

But I don't see the ability to empathize as self-insertion. That is a faggot term used by faggots.

>no u wrong
>u just don't understand muh deep Shitrou therefore not self-insert
That's what all you fucking said. Shirou is a fucking shit, so are you.

That's the issue. Retards are defining every character by how they think the audience is using them or supposed to use them, but that's fucking retard because it leads to any sort of character being accused of this. They can't just say "this character is boring" or "this character is pathetic" or "this character is too OP for me" --no, a strong MC, a weak MC or a normal MC are all "self-inserts" because they're egocentric and self-project onto the characters.

What a shit reply

I was dumb to think I'd be able to have a serious discussion with someone of your level

youtube.com/watch?v=XazsdoGWfMo

Shirou is at least better than Giorno, one of the blandest pieces of shit in anime/manga medium

>remorseless killer with a heart of gold
>bland
He was like a good Dio. Don't understand the shit he gets.

>That's only the case when these characters are basically blank pieces of paper with a few generic qualities here and there
Wanting to be a fucking superhero is a generic shonen quality, you fucktard.
So is "facing your contradictions" which is an internal struggle bullshit that every fucking shonen hero has done.

And no, there's no contradiction. You're the fucker that says the lack of choices in the VN prevents you from saying an MC is a self-insert.

My counter to that is Manga/LN Harem MCs are regarded as self-inserts even if they have personalities all their own while at the same time, you have no choices.

By using your own logic, it's MUCH easier to insert into eroge VN MCs than Harem manga self-insert MCs.

Jojo and Fate are totally different, Jojo is more about cool powers and fights, funny characters and bizzarre shit, Fate has an overall better plot, characters and a deeper worldbuilding.