Would these two have had a chance if Zouken wanted them to win and gave his full support...

Would these two have had a chance if Zouken wanted them to win and gave his full support? Their biggest problem was Berserker had no versatility, just attack attack attack, and Kariya was an awful tactician who never remotely did anything clever. We saw easily he can manipulate everything in HF if his cards are right.

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If he had shown himself to be someone even remotely capable of winning, Zouken might have done something. Doubt he would put too much of his effort into it though since he was putting basically all his chips on Sakura. If he had killed a single master, maybe Waver or COORUman if he bum-rushed his shit before their respective servants could do something, then I could see Zouken getting at least a bit interested. But no matter what, there's no way he would've had full support. As you said, Kariya sucked. He was too retarded to do anything even remotely useful and it doesn't help that Berserker can do fuck all on it's own other than fight stuff.

Being Kariya really is suffering.

Technically, how do you even lose with a Berserker? That's the strongest fighter one-on-one. Your plan would be "Berserker? Fuck this nigger up. Collateral damage? Who gives a shit, I want his head."

Like, Fate/Zero is better at this than in F/SN, where the fights end for no reason, but I can't help but think that the War would be very brief and very brutal.

Gigantic mana drain on the master and very predictable strategy.

Actually, another question is: If Berseker's the gimp class, why would you pick Berserker? It's not like you HAVE to do it.

If I recall, Berserker means you summon a Servant then slap on Mad Enhancement. If you didn't, does that mean you get two of the same Servant?

Well I'd assume you would either have no choice or there would have to be special circumstances for it
Or maybe you're a magus who gives no fucks about the mana cost and just wants some muscle to swing around like Illya in FSN

It was never meant be fair. Berserker was a dump class to sucker some idiot into choosing so the three families have an easier time.

Yeah but the Einzberns deliberately chose a Berserker for Ilya. Like, what, Hercules wasn't badass enough? You have to make him a frothing blood-mad axe killer? Sheeeyyyittt. (Frankly, I'd have thought he would be more effective as Saber.)

>Ok we made all the classes now-
>Wait wait we need seven, it's a lucky number.
>Who the fuck cares? We've already covered everything unless you want to make something retarded like a shield class.
>Nah. Let's just make it some garbage class that no one would want.
>Fine. Uh vikings were known to go batshit insane in battle right?

And so Berserker was made.

That's specifically because after Kerry screwed them over they wanted someone who will obey over all else. Also if summoned in any other class Heracles would've likely killed the Einzberns and saved Illya from them.

Honestly, Assassin seems a lot more gimped. It just seems like no-one ever uses him properly.

Technically, even if you did use him properly, you'd have to be really, really lucky. Even if the Master was asleep, his Servant might be hovering nearby in spirit form or something.

Where the hell were the other Einzberns during the war anyway?
I would have thought after the events of the fourth grail war, they would be a bit more proactive in helping their chosen horse win the race. It felt less that they made Illya enter and more that she did it of her own accord so she could get revenge or whatever.

Ilyia was made to sustain berserker and take full advantage of his power.
Kariya was a failed magus who needed the power boost of the berserker class to compete with other servants. For example Saber is stronger with Rin as her master compared to Shiro as master.

Where there more Einzberns? I had thought Acht was the last one.

Assassin is gimped, hence the Hassan only rule.

Not when Gilgamesh is in the war.

Hercules is best suited as an Archer actually, where he can use his most powerful NP, Nine Lives.

I don't understand
Doesn't he use that while he's a Berserker anyway?

If Fate had taught me anything, creativity can get you far. If you're a smart/lucky Master, you can make Berserker works.

He wasn't even a real Einzbern. He was a golem meant to manage the homunculi production and make sure the heir was taught properly. All of the real Einzberns were already long gone.

He can't use it as Berseker because of Ma Enhancement, at least in FSN. He should be able to use it in all other classes because it's a technique, not a weapon. And he qualifies for all classes other than Caster.

He can't activate it while he's a berserker because he doesn't have the mental capacity to. Nine Lives is actually a technique that is sublimated as an NP. He can use it under any class and with any weapon, including his bare hands, if he's in a suitable class (basically anything that isn't berserker). Berserker is actually Herc's worst possible class that he qualifies for, whereas Archer is his best.

As Berserker he can only use 1 NP, God Hand, which is the regenarating/Revival ability. Nine Lives is the bow he used to kill the Hydra in mythology. Also, imagine the superhumanly strong and fast Hercules, with all his combat experience intact, given a highly-destructive range weapon.

Lancelot actually had a decent amount of versatility, it was just gimped under the berserker class in favor of giving him enough power to keep up with other servants because Kariya was a crappy master with little to no real training.

He needed to be berserker just to stand a chance against Gilgamesh, and he still had a chance of losing to several other servants in the war. There is little chance of them overcoming Iskandar and his Reality Marble, and Diarmuid was a really good servant for one-on-one duels. Even with Zouken supporting them, they'd almost certainly lose to one of the above.

Ah I get it now. It's been awhile since I read FSN so I thought that Nine Lives was the freakish regen thing. Thanks for clearing up my retardation.

>He was a golem
wait what? i never heard about his

Nine Lives wasn't the bow, that was the Hydra Bow that he gets under Archer class. Nine Lives is a technique NP that he can use with any weapon. It was explained more in-depth recently with the translation of Fate/strange fake.

Yeah, he's similar to the other homunculi of the Einzbern house, but with a more important function of creating the other homunculi.

is this in apochrypha, strange fake or something?

This gentleman is correct, I mixed up between the Hydra Bow and Nine Lives. I blame Prisma Illya for that.

I believe it was stated in the Q&A for UBW.

I still think that Kerry + assassin would destroy the war in like 4 nights.

The problem with that is that he'll have to exclusively go for master kills because the assassin of the 4th war had very little combat potential. Servants who keep close to their masters at all times would have no issue dealing with assassin, which means Kerry would have to give fire support to even come close to killing a master like that.

Part of the Zero LN talked about Iskandar easily fighting off assassins in a tight space, so Kerry would have to try and shoot Waver instead. Gilgamesh can survive for a while without a master contracted to him, so he would likely just kill Kerry/assassin if his master dies and then he'd pick a new master if he feels like it. If caster gets his giant monster up, Kerry has no way to deal with it in that case, so Saber (or Gilgamesh, but he would't care enough) would have to deal with it, assuming she's still alive by that point.

He has more compatibility with an assassin, but he'd still have some heavy obstacles.

>It was explained more in-depth recently with the translation of Fate/strange fake.

Goddammit, I wish the translations weren't scattered across like a thousand page thread.

He's not strongest as Archer because of NPs, he's strongest as Archer because he's able to display his cunning and resourcefulness better there than in any other class.

Nine Lives would be at its strongest if he was summoned as Saber.

There's nothing saying it would be at its best in the Saber class, it's power varies based on how he employs it. It can be anything from anti-unit to anti-fortress whenever he chooses.

>Nine Lives [Noble Phantasm]
"The Shooting Hundred Heads".
Heroic Spirit Heracles' most trusted Noble Phantasm.
It was the bow used to slay the Lernaean Hydra, whose nine heads would always regenerate no matter how many times they were cut off. Afterward, Heracles perfected a method of attacking that emulated the abilities of the bow, that could even be used with great swords. If Heracles' class was Saber, that glorious, exquisite swordplay would have definitely made its return.

That isn't saying that it would be at its best in Saber class, it just means it would be easily used with a sword as well as a bow. There's an updated profile for it in Strange Fake.

What is Heracles doing in Strange/Fake?

Problem is Gil could stick around without a master forever and he'd just go "mongrels" and kill them

Kerry winning the war does not mean he would kill everyone himself. He would try to make others fight and then kill the masters. If someone else picked Arturia or some counter to Gil then it would still be possible.

If he could show off the technique better in any other class, it would have said that class instead of Saber.

Being evil and getting decked by Hippolyta.

Being an edgelord and trying to kill Gil's loli master.

No it wouldn't, it listed Saber as an example of how it could be used with any class and weapon. It does not explicitly state that it would be better at all. It has no need to say a different class because it is equal under all classes.

Assassin is used properly in Apocrypha (Assassin of Black) and fails despite supposedly having 100% chance of a perfect ambush attack on Mordred simply because her target had the Instinct skill. Turns out Instinct and other similar skills that provide defense against unseen threats kind of completely invalidate the Assassin class.

Assassin is used properly in Extra, and Li Shuwen makes it to the fifth round of the Mooncell HGW doing so. But he still fails to kill your Servant when he targets them despite his 100% chance of a perfect ambush and successfully striking them that way. They survive - even Tamamo, who canonically has E rank Endurance - and you formulate a strategy against him that destroys him badly.

Assassins are weak even when used properly. That is an unfortunate fact.

Possible, sure, but he'd be likely to screw up sooner or later and then have no good defense.

>No it wouldn't, it listed Saber as an example of how it could be used with any class and weapon.

It seriously did not. It could have given any class as an example for showing the technique off, but it specifically mentioned Saber, not Lancer or Archer, the only two classes that can compete with Saber in fighting skill.

> It does not explicitly state that it would be better at all.

It implies it heavily by omission of other examples of suitable classes for the technique.

>It has no need to say a different class because it is equal under all classes.

Just because other classes still have the NP does not mean they are best able to demonstrate its true value.

It doesn't completely invalidate it, but Instinct and similar skills do create a nonzero chance that the ambush will fail spectacularly.

Just because it doesn't list them directly does not mean Saber is the best for it. It lists it as a skill he developed with the bow first and foremost, goes on to say it is more of a style than anything else, and then lists and example of how it can be used elsewhere. You're making a lot of assumptions that just because Saber is the only one listed that it would be the best for it.

If Kerry did not have Saber, he wouldn't have been able to use Avalon. If he lacks Avalon, he can't beat Kirei. And if Kerry can't beat Kirei, neither can any other Master.

Without Saber there to foster a desire in Lancer to fight honorably against another knight, Lancer would have had no problem fighting as dirty as his master demanded. In other words, there's a risk that he would adopt hit and run strategy, and if that happens, he becomes a highly formidable opponent that has decent odds of winning the whole war.

>Just because it doesn't list them directly does not mean Saber is the best for it.

It implies that. You cannot deny it.

>It lists it as a skill he developed with the bow first and foremost, goes on to say it is more of a style than anything else, and then lists and example of how it can be used elsewhere. You're making a lot of assumptions that just because Saber is the only one listed that it would be the best for it.

Do you know how Servant vessels work? Different aspects of a Heroic Spirit are summoned depending on the class. Different classes will have different parameters, sometimes different skills, etc. Just because an NP is a style that can be used across any class, does not mean there is not a class that it is strongest in.

Lancer was still a huge moralfag that loved honorable duels regardless. Even then, the hit and run strategy still only gives him a slightly-greater-than-zero chance to win, hardly formidable.

You also have to consider that if Kerry doesn't have Saber, and instead has Assassin, then that means Kirei likely gets Saber instead.

I can deny that because it isn't as strong of an implication as you believe. It listed bow first, meaning Archer would be the obvious first choice, and then it gave Saber as an example. It could have said Lancer and it wouldn't have mattered. They likely chose Saber because it was said that if Herc was ever summoned as a Saber, he would use a club, whereas is was never stated what he would use (though obviously a spear or lance of some kind) if he was summoned as a Lancer. The fact remains that he also gets a better weapon as Archer, as it is implied that he would get the deadly Hydra Bow with its poison arrows. That's far better than some no-name club.

Nine Lives is an adjustable NP that can be used anywhere from rank C to A+, so the vessel does not matter as much anyway.

>if Kerry can't beat Kirei, neither can any other Master.
I mean you could just have a Servant stab him.

they'd have to deal with his servant first

This is Lancelot as a Saber
Stats:
>Strength B
>Agility B
>Luck B+
>Endurance A
>Magic C
>NP A++
NP
Arondight Overload
Anti Army Rank A++
>Bestowing an overload to the Unbreakable Lake Light, letting the changed magic energy leak out. It is then repurposed into an attack. This Noble Phantasm is something close to a sword skill, which deliberately refrains from emitting the magic energy that would originally turn into a slash of light, instead releasing it upon cutting at the target. The blue light of the vast magic energy that overflows from the severed section has been alluded as like a lake.
Knight of Honor(A++)is the same as the Berserker version and same goes for Eternal arms Mastery (A+) and Protection of the Faeries (A+) is the same too.
Magic Resistance is B rank and Riding is B rank as well.
It's noted that Saber is is his best class apparently.
>Indeed, Saber is the most fitting class for Lancelot to be summoned under.
and Lancelot has another new skill called "Knight of the Lake A" we don't know what it does yet in lore.

I just checked out the wiki, and it says KoH is a personal skill as Saber, but no description on what it does

typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_(Fate/Grand_Order_-_Lancelot)

It does the same thing as his Berserker version.

So why the change from NP to personal Skill?

It's a gameplay thing. You can only have 1 NP in Grand Order gameplay wise, so sometimes other NPs are used as skills. Mordred and Gawain have this too I believe.

>and Lancelot has another new skill called "Knight of the Lake A" we don't know what it does yet in lore.

I think it's just Protection of Fairies renamed, like how KoH was renamed into its tagline: "A knight does not die with empty hands". It's the same A rank and has the same theme (lake ties into Vivian, the lady/fairy of the lake that raised lancelot)