What exactly was supposed to be the difference between all the versions of instrumentality that the series tried to...

What exactly was supposed to be the difference between all the versions of instrumentality that the series tried to portray?

From the background with Yui, it made it sound like her idea was different than SEELE's, since her life was endangered when they found out about her ulterior motives. But then during EoE the SEELE agent acts like this is what they planned from the start when Third Impact commences.

And it's basically stated outright that Gendo's idea of it was different than SEELE's due to their conflict, but also different from Yui's as well due to his panic when Rei rejects him in EoE. At least that's what it appears like, as he's never reunited with Yui like he wanted, since in the end we find out Yui's idea was fulfilled with Unit 01 becoming the vessel for her soul for eternity.

And why would SEELE put the fate of instrumentality in Shinji's hands if the result is so malleable to his will? Did they simply predict that a broken mind like his would never reject instrumentality? But they knew Unit 01 had Yui's soul in it and the connection between the two of them is what drove its power, so if they knew that Yui still existed within Unit 01 and that her instrumentality plan was different than theirs, why would they make Unit 01 the cornerstone of their plan?

If the initiation of the Impacts are caused between the unity of an Adam life form and a Lilith life form, why were the Angels going after Adam? How would the fusion of Adam + Angel cause an Impact? Why didn't the fusion of Rei + Armisael cause an Impact if this were the case, since humans + Adam caused an Impact?

And what exactly did Fuyutsuki mean when he was talking about instrumentality shielding the human race from Third Impact? I thought instrumentality and Third Impact were one and the same? If protecting humanity was the plan from the beginning, wouldn't defeating all 18 Angels suffice? Or is the unification and destruction of Adam+Lilith required as well?

Other urls found in this thread:

gwern.net/docs/eva/1996-newtype-anno-interview
youtube.com/watch?v=orXtcm_BlG0
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

>And why would SEELE put the fate of instrumentality in Shinji's hands if the result is so malleable to his will?
Gendo was supposed to be in control, but Rei chose Shinji instead. Apparently this part of the plan depended entirely on that Rei would follow her orders until the very end.

The Angels were trying to reunite with Adam, but simply confused Lilith with Adam. Adam based life + Lilith would've blown things up, but we don't know who would survive after that. Presumably, Angels + Adam would wipe out the Lilim, allowing the Angels to dominate earth.

Gendo wanted to control Instrumentality to bring his wife back. To that end, he want to hold both Adam and Lilith's soul - which was inside Rei - within himself. If he had succeeded in doing this, he probably could've resurrected Yui.

Rei denies Gendo this and steals Adam from him, fusing with Lilith's body to initiate a different form of Instrumentality. She then gave control of it to Shinji, giving him the ability to choose how Instrumentality progresses. The Instrumentality that we see is not what Seele wanted, but it seemed close enough that they were satisfied with it anyway. Seele would've been happy if Shinji had simply let Instrumentality complete and fuse all beings into one. Instead, Shinji rejected Instrumentality.

Yui's goal was to deny Seele of their goal, allowing Humanity to keep existing. As a side goal, she also created a lasting monument to Humanity so that it would never die.

Rei + Armisael wouldn't have done shit because Rei didn't have Lilith's full soul until Rei III.

>The Angels were trying to reunite with Adam, but simply confused Lilith with Adam
That makes sense for the first few episodes, but then Gaghiel attacks the Navy fleet in episode 8, knowing that Adam is there with Kaji. If they were still confused about whether Adam or Lilith was in Terminal Dogma wouldn't it have just attacked NERV HQ then?

>Rei + Armisael wouldn't have done shit because Rei didn't have Lilith's full soul until Rei III.
Wait really? I thought Rei's entire identity was the clone of Yui shell + Lilith's soul? Maybe I missed something.

>Gendo was supposed to be in control, but Rei chose Shinji instead
Okay, so SEELE's plan assumed Gendo would be in control, assuming he also followed orders? Which is why they attacked NERV when they found out he had a different plan for instrumentality too, since they didn't trust him anymore to carry out instrumentality according to their wishes? And this is why they defaulted to using Shinji + Unit 01 as a backup?

>Gaghiel attacks the Navy fleet in episode 8
Think of it as if both Adam and Lilith are emitting a radio signal on the same frequency. Gaghiel was closest to Adam at the time, so he attacked Adam. The other Angels were closer to Lilith, so they went there. After this episode, both Adam and Lilith are in the same location, so it makes little difference after that.

>I thought Rei's entire identity was the clone of Yui shell + Lilith's soul?
Rei I had Lilith's full soul, but then was killed. The theory with the most going for it is that her soul was then split up, with half going inside Eva 00, allowing her to pilot. Rei II then has half of Lilith's soul. When she's returned to having a complete soul with Rei III, she does things like fly and emit extremely powerful AT fields.

>SEELE's plan assumed Gendo would be in control
Seele was aware of Gendo's betrayal long ago and had planned to take him out as soon as preparations were set. Ideally, they would be able to take over Nerv, steal all of the Evas, and then conduct Instrumentality on their own time without any distractions. Gendo made things difficult for them, which is why they rushed into accepting a Shinji led Instrumentality instead.

>as he's never reunited with Yui like he wanted
well, in some way he is.

Nope, Yui is not in the LCL sea.

>Think of it as if both Adam and Lilith are emitting a radio signal on the same frequency. Gaghiel was closest to Adam at the time, so he attacked Adam. The other Angels were closer to Lilith, so they went there. After this episode, both Adam and Lilith are in the same location, so it makes little difference after that.

That's mere speculation. The truth is that we don't know the angels' true motives. The only one who gives the viewer at least some hints is Kaworu and he didn't seem to be aware of the fact that Gendo fused with Adam.

The fact that Gaghiel went after Adam at all, combined with Kaworu confusing Lilith with Adam, is enough to tell us that they both emit very similar "frequencies" or otherwise attract Angels in the same way. You're welcome to offer up another theory, but as far as I'm aware, this has the most going for it and is the most reasonable one to follow.

Don't try too hard making sense out of it. Even Anno has no clue :

> "The development of Evangelion gives me the feeling of a ‘Live’ concert. Whatever the story or the development of the characters, I made them without a plan"

> "The impression of ‘Live’ concert that gives me the birth of Eva, was the team joining me in developing it, in the manner of an improvisation"

> “Speaking of improvisation, when I added the ‘Human Complementation Project’ that appears in the second episode, and which was going to become the fulcrum/pivot of the plot, I still had no idea about what it was going to ‘complement’

> "We only started working on the next script once the previous one was done."
gwern.net/docs/eva/1996-newtype-anno-interview

Just enjoy the visuals and the feeling of being mindfucked.

Guys, just no.

SEELE was planning on starting instrumentality, and so was Gendo. However, there are open hostilities between Gendo and SEELE, as Gendo ends up sitting on all the trump cards.

SEELE planned to start instrumentality using the Eva's, and when EVA01 makes an appearance, they seize the chance to do so. Instrumentality starts as the MP-EVA's converge on EVA01 and do the dark magic they were created to do. Instrumentality begins, and destroys a large chunk of the globe right off the bat.

SEELE was sure that the destruction of Shinji's ego would result in the outcome they wanted. An effective end to all wars and pain, but also all progress. They would have been right, if not for Rei and Gendo, who had predicted this. Gendo had gone to Terminal Dogma in order to get Rei to give him control. Rei can do this because she is the original upon which the rest is based, and with her will, she can give choice.

So while instrumentality is booting up and SEELE is about to "win", Rei defies Gendo and leaves him entirely shattered and broken. Rei then manages to get in contact with Shinji, and give him a choice in matters.

The rest is history.

Nothing you said contradicted what I said.

>he didn't seem to be aware of the fact that Gendo fused with Adam.
They downright tell Kaworu that Gendo fused with Adam in NGE.

Kaworu is just a retard.

If you're the first guy, then it's clear that SEELE never intended for Gendo to be in control.

If you're the second, then you explain that Rei somehow initiates instrumentality, despite how it was already well underway at that point - Rei assimilates it when it's ongoing and rather than simply tang all humans, we now have an entity outside instrumentality that can communicate with those inside it, in this case, Shinji.

If that's the only issue you have, it's negligible as both Rei asserting control and Seele initiating their ritual occur very close in time, but whatever.

What you just said was bullshit. Close in time? How about you stop making excuses for getting your facts plainly out of order instead of excusing yourself?

It's not even close in time, earth is largely blown the fuck out as pretty much most of Japan is gone before anyone does anything down in Terminal Dogma. It's important to make clear who/what starts instrumentality, and why.

If that is your only complaint with what I detailed then your complaints at this point are nothing but posturing. What it comes down to is that Seele wanted to evolve humanity, Gendo wanted his wife back, and Rei gave Shinji the choice to decide how Instrumentality proceeded.

You know what posturing is? Being a stubborn dweeb when you know you're wrong. For one, the first guy didn't get the question of who wanted what right, so that might mislead and confuse the OP. You got the bits about who actually started instrumentality wrong, which is also something the OP asked about .

Then being butthurt and going "n-nothing u said contradicted wat I said!", and still going full defensive after being shown what contradicts it, that's posturing.

What the hell is wrong with you, can't you handle being wrong or something? Typical tripfag ARK loser.

Okay. The important parts I was focusing on was each groups goals. If you want to work yourself up over Seele starting it, that's fine, but if that's your only complain then you're making a big deal out of nothing.

Holy shit, it actually WAS ARK! No wonder you seemed bulletproof against logic and facts, you're pretty much legendary for your narrowmindedness and complete and total inability to admit you're wrong.

Now look, you can't just say "well, hurr, who CARES who started the second world war, it's not like it MATTERS!", especially not when you're trying to explain what happened to someone. If someone points out your error, the decent thing to do is say "thanks for pointing it out".

Not "OGM IT DUZNT CONTRADICTZ ME", like you did.

Amazing, the person who posted an Asuksnack image was the person known for posting those. Good on you.

>If someone points out your error, the decent thing to do is say "thanks for pointing it out".
Okay.

Is that your only complaint with what I wrote?

I was just trying to point out the mistakes and set the timeline straight. But then, ARK's gonna ARK.

Right, so everything else is fine.

ITT: Autism
Can't you guys chill out? Do you have to sperg out over ever minute detail?

Some of us just want to talk EVA, others like ARK want to be autists who can't handle being wrong about something without going into full defense mode. Cancer of the fanbase, that team red.

No. Yes.

made by autists for autists

>Reifag rewords a post to be Rei-centrific
>T-That cancer!
Look, I hate ARK as much as the next guy, but you really did just reword his initial post. Don't be a faggot.

t. ARK (Phone Version)

You sure are paranoid.

Look, I explained which parts contradicted his and the other guy's version, and at that point you can't call it a rewording.

You didn't expand on shit. You get pooper peeved because his post wasn't Rei-centric enough.

Except for the part, where, you know, I explain the hostilities between the two and clarify for poster #1 that SEELE certainly didn't want Gendo in charge, and the rest is about the order of events and why it's even possible, which ARK fucked up.

The only difference he made from what I said was in stating that Seele starting things up. That's fine. I just find it strange for everything else to be essentially the same while starting with a "Guys, just no" as if it were all wrong.

The antagonism is also annoying, but not surprising.

>ARK thinks he's the center of the world as usual

It's a reply to two posters. If I really wanted to antagonize you, I'd just point out that you should leave your fanwank at home with the Rei/EVA00 shit.

>It's a reply to two posters
Okay. It's still only different from my post in one aspect. You only really added 1 thing to what already made it clear that he was wrong.

> I'd just point out that you should leave your fanwank at home with the Rei/EVA00 shit.
Feel free to offer a better theory.

I'd propose one that wasn't based on groupthink and parroting something popular.

If you watch the anime, you'd see that EVA00 is in fact a testbed for the dummyplug tech along with Rei, and the testing they do relates to the development of said tech, which has no relation to souls at all.

Okay, so your theory is that Eva00 utilized the Dummy Plug system to pilot.

If the Dummy Plug system is so far along in the first few episodes of NGE that it can allow Rei to pilot, then why does Gendo not install it into Eva 01 until over half way through the series? Even when they tried it out against Bardiel it wasn't complete, but Gendo took that one test as confirmation that he didn't need Shinji anymore, and so let kicked him out immediately. I don't think Eva 00 could be run off the Dummy Plug system alone, especially that early.

>If the Dummy Plug system is so far along in the first few episodes of NGE that it can allow Rei to pilot, then why does Gendo not install it into Eva 01 until over half way through the series?

Your question answers itself, because the prototype unit EVA00 is what they've been using for developing it and they are still testing it, it's quite obviously not ready. They do the sync in ep 14 with Shinji to determine whether or not it's ready for deployment, and lo and behold, the tests determine that they might be ready and some episodes later, they make the dummy plug system.

I don't recall that being why they were conducting those tests, but I'm long overdue for a rewatch. I'll keep this in mind next time.

It seems odd to me that Rei would be able to achieve even that 20-30% synch ratio or so that she had with a dummy plug that's early in development, though. The idea that synching with only half a soul would lead to lower results does make sense, after all.

>I don't recall that being why they were conducting those tests, but I'm long overdue for a rewatch. I'll keep this in mind next time.

Yeah, which makes me wonder, you rewatch this crap probably several times a year, and I watched it more or less 15 years ago. I remember this shit, and I seriously struggle with accepting that people who aim to take it seriously don't even after multiple rewatches.

>It seems odd to me that Rei would be able to achieve even that 20-30% synch ratio or so that she had with a dummy plug that's early in development, though.

It only seems odd because you're incapable of critical thought. The facts are that Rei has the lowest sync ratio in the group, and an incomplete unit would explain that very, very well.

>The idea that synching with only half a soul would lead to lower results does make sense, after all.

It doesn't make sense at all, in any way whatsoever. It's established that Rei doesn't have a mother, and it's established that EVA's use the pilot's mother implanted soul to function, and therefore Rei's method of syncing is logically different from the rest. This is also backed up by NGE2, for what it's worth.

>during EoE the SEELE agent acts like this is what they planned from the start
Keel says that of a 100km Rei taking all the Evas right before he melts. Rei had never been Seele's scenario, they didn't suspect what she was until episode 23 and they still had less to say about her than Ikari's son overall. He wasn't seeing the same shit we were, he was being tanged and Rei showed him what he wanted to see as a courtesy.

>you rewatch this crap probably several times a year
I haven't rewatched it in years. Forgive me for not having a perfect memory.

>The facts are that Rei has the lowest sync ratio in the group, and an incomplete unit would explain that very, very well.
I do not deny that.

>therefore Rei's method of syncing is logically different from the rest
Syncing with only half a soul would be different from those who sync with a full one, therefore it would make sense for it to provide different results.

>This is also backed up by NGE2
It's stated that Eva00 uses the Dummy Plug system in NGE2?

Also keep in mind I'm not defending the split soul theory, but considering yours. It has its merits and I'd like to watch the series again while looking out for it. Thanks.

>Syncing with only half a soul would be different from those who sync with a full one, therefore it would make sense for it to provide different results.

Again with the "forgetfulness", the only one syncing with a full soul is arguably Shinji, as Asuka's mother was left alive after the transfer, with a soul. Syncing with one's own soul is also more or less unprecedented, but using a dummy plug or similar isn't.

>It's stated that Eva00 uses the Dummy Plug system in NGE2?
I was referring to what I wrote in the previous sentence. In other words, stop skimming my posts and get some fucking reading comprehension skills.

>Asuka's mother
That's a good point. I didn't consider that.

>I was referring to what I wrote in the previous sentence
That they use mother's souls to pilot? That's common knowledge. The whole point of coming up with the split soul theory was to explain how she can pilot with a mother. NGE2 backing up mother's souls being important isn't really relevant.

Antagonism aside, your theory does sound pretty nice. However, unless you can provide me a screenshot or something that makes it clear they were testing for their ability to synch with the Dummy Plugs, all I can say is that you've made a good point and I'll have to consider it the next time I rewatch the show.

>NGE2 backing up mother's souls being important isn't really relevant.

It backs up the idea that Rei's low sync ratio is caused by a different method of operating the EVA, which is not disclosed.

>However, unless you can provide me a screenshot or something that makes it clear they were testing for their ability to synch with the Dummy Plugs
Don't have it with me. Watch episode 14.

Ritsuko says they can use this test data to go forward with the dummy plug project, which maya/misato doesn't like.

>It backs up the idea that Rei's low sync ratio is caused by a different method of operating the EVA
Which, again, was what the original theory was supposed to be getting at, but like you already brought up everyone forgot about Asuka entirely. That's a pretty bad blunder.

>Watch episode 14.
Alright, excuse the shitty paint image; subtitles haven't been showing up in my screenshots and I'm too lazy to fix it lately.

Your theory is definitely sounding a lot better, and that explains what those sync tests were actually for in the first place. I'd still like to rewatch things with this in mind, but you've definitely presented a better theory. Thank you.

My theories are always the best, and Evangelion's fanbase is a tragedy of deception, jealousy and hatred of each other, which is why you get such a large amount of people agreeing to something they should know is false.

>Evangelion's fanbase is a tragedy of deception, jealousy and hatred of each other, which is why you get such a large amount of people agreeing to something they should know is false.
That much, I'll agree with you on.

Okay so. There's 3 ways Instrumentality can go.
1. The SEELE way which doesn't have anybody really at the helm, it just has Lilith take all of humans and put them in the hivemind so they live forever, immortal and in harmony.
2. The Gendo way where Gendo controls the pathway of souls, so he can reunite with Yui. What else he was going to do different from the SEELE way is unclear, if anything. Rei refused this.
3. The Shinji way where Instrumentality kinda goes mostly the SEELE way but stops right at the end. Now anyone who is in the hivemind who has enough self-awareness to recreate their own ego can leap out of the hivemind and go back to living on earth with the possibility of pain and misery. Rei chose this.

Third Impact is what happens when a being born of Adam makes contact with Lilith, which kills Lilith and everything Lilith ever created (i.e. Lilim i.e. humanity and most of earth's biosphere besides) and remakes planet earth in Adam's nature instead. This happened partially in Rebuild of Evangelion 2.22 when Shinji made the awful mistake of jamming Eva-01's arms (which are made of Lilith matter) into Zeruel's core (which is Adam-born).

How conceited of you.

...

...

who the fuck is SEELE?

Monolith guys.

yeah but who were these guys?

Illuminati

A secret society of investors who were able to use foreknowledge of Second Impact to gain influence over the UN and massively expand its power, securing control of the world economy, ultimately in pursuit of kooky cult shit.

Unless you mean in Rebuild. That's a new kettle of shit.

The Jews above the Jews.

"Who" indeed.

I saw you post this earlier. It's a cute gif.

>Traumatizes both her son and husband for the sake of her own egotistical plan to make humanity immortal, with her as its matriarchal mother-goddess

Yui is a monster and the true villain of Eva.

She was a terrible person for what she did to her husband and son, but I would not call her a villain.

>le yui is actually an evil mastermind meme

I actually agree.

samefaggerino

>quote a single post
>claim it's the same person
No shit user

This shit is why I can't take the more deluded Eva fans' insistence that it actually makes sense somehow if you just pay attention seriously. There are so many fucking contingencies for the character motivations that there's nothing coherent to come out of anything. By then end we have only vague notions of what any given character even thought of one another or what their actual aims would have been on regards to their overall plotting.

No serious Eva fan contemplates the plot beyond superficial musings. The plot is just there to advance the really important stuff, which is Shinji's character arc.

As much of a cop out as it sounds like, the plot really just seems like it was slammed together in order to explore the characters. Whether that was Anno's main goal or if he was just a pretentious hack that got lucky is up to interpretation, but the plot wasn't what made me like Eva, personally.

But that doesn't really work. Understanding the plot and the mechanisms behind it is crucial, to a certain extent, in order to understand what motivates characters like Gendo and the people in NERV and their interaction with each other and the teens they oversee.

The teenage characters, on the other hand, are less involved in the plot at large, but there is also honestly less substance to their thoughts, and this is despite the fact that they get explicit introspective scenes.

I have much respect for Anno, as in interviews he clearly shows that he is capable of nuanced and intelligent understanding of the issues he comes up against, but that doesn't mean I have to like what Eva actually is, or what it's fanbase makes it out to be.

>I think the deconstruction of these signs is rare in cartoons that are shown on TV. When we aired our line drawings, some people in the industry called our work shoddy, even though it was impossible to consider it such.

Its hilarious to me though that Anno understands what deconstruction is and does in part consider Eva to be something that does this.

...

Plot is secondary but it does make sense to a certain extent.

SCHEME 1. Angels wanted to take back their plannet and Make Earth Great Again.

SCHEME 2. Seele wanted to create instrumentality and unify humanity into a collective consciousness where they would be at the forefront and be 'more equal' than the others.

Yui being dauther of Ikari Sr (the most senior member of Seele we ever get to know about) didn't have much choice but to be a cog in that machine.

SCHEME 3. She didn't share their goals and thought humanity should forge it's own path. But whatever happens she thought humanity deserved to be remembered (echos Gendo's Cenotaph and Memories scene)

SCHEME 4. She needed allies not loyal to Seele, so she recruited the two people she knew would fit the bill. She sold them on the idea that rather than pursuing Seele's 'death' scenario they would bring about an utopic 'brighter world'.

When the moment of truth came, she let Fuyutsuki know the real scheme in case anything went wrong, but didn't tell Gendo because he would have stopped her.

SCHEME 5. After the 'accident' Gendo decides to throw the 'beautiful world' scenario and instead seeks to only bring Yui back.

SCHEME 6. Rei is not a doll and procedes to BTFO out of everyone's schemes eccept maybe Yui.

As far as Instrumentality scenarios go you got:
SCENARIO 1: Humanity dies, angels prosper
SCENARIO 2: Instrumentality of man. (everyone merges in the soup of life, Seele is ok with this one even if they're not the ones leading)
SCENARIO 3: Wishfulfilment (Shinji's slice of life, Gendo and Yui together)
SCENARIO 4: World without me (life action scenes)
SCENARIO 5: World of only me (seen on TV ending)
SCENARIO 6: World faces the consequences (EoE ending, nothing is undone but people can choose to go on if they're willing to)
SCENARIO 7: Reset, try again.
I might be forgeting about some scenarios.

youtube.com/watch?v=orXtcm_BlG0