Well-animated stuff in anime always amazed and captivated me. I've been lurking the sakugabooru for a very long time, and now that it has a blog along with the airing of Mob Psycho 100 which is pretty bad story-wise but absolutely incredible visually, I have decided that it's time for me level up from a simple observer and actually start thinking and analyzing stuff.
So, where do I start? Is there some kind of recommended reading on the topic? I'm starting to recognize animators by their style a little bit, but so far it's only the most obvious stuff and the biggest name like Kameda or Aninari. How does one get better at this? By watching even more stuff? Learning moonrunes? Stalking animators on twitter?
Also, general sakuga thread, I guess? I dont' want this to be just request, this isn't /wsr/ after all.
familiarize yourself with the anime production basics/studio history/staff history etc
familiarize yourself with the names of known animators
Jordan Nguyen
Mob Psycho is well written. It has a simple plot but that doesn't preclude a good story and there is plenty of good character writing in it.
Anyway, animation is also filmmaking so all those choices to make it visually appealing is in service of the story.
Jayden Anderson
personally, I find good directing a more engaging watch than good animation. moreso when it's a combination of the two
Hunter Morales
It's hard to get a really accurate "idea" of it without literally being an industry insider - much of the 'sakuga' analysts in the west are making assumptions from hearsay and suggesting the idea of what is dubbed "sakuga" has more weight than it really does. Presumably there's a more in-depth community on japanese message boards, but how much you trust of those translating that discourse should be taken with a pinch of salt.
They present it like it's some kind of ideology or concept, when often it's just animators doing shit because it looks cool. Often it's just raw talent and experimentation at play, instead of any real school they're prescribing to.
In that way it's mostly a fan passion thing, which by no means discredits it - just beware of those being a bit too "pretentious" about it. It's fucking cool and that's enough, it doesn't need to be high art.
Colin Groesbeck does a good talk on it in 2013, mostly looking at how sakuga is routed in resource management - you spend minimal effort on irrelevant movements and then blow your loads on the important scenes, which is counter to the american ideology which demands consistency. He looks at some old animated films that do this to prove the point.
Then the site you mention is linked to sakugablog.yshi.org/tag/mob-psycho-100/, which is probably the best western review site of good animation and looks at more recent stuff. Presumably if you want to get really into it, you can talk to one of the people who manages it.
Also on a completely unrelated note (since it's not even anime) you should check out the full uncut version of The Thief and The Cobbler, cos that's like the crowning achievement in fluid animation, even if the overall product never reached its full potential.
Cooper Thompson
>pretty bad story-wise FUCK YOU, GIF POSTER.
James Peterson
Funny that you mention it, this panel video was my first foray into the world of sakuga. I didn't even know the word before, I just assumed it's well-animated scenes without a specific name.
I tried watching Canipa Effect, the videos are pretty informative, but for the life of me I cannot get behind the guy's voice. For some reason it's off-putting to me and distract from the actual content of the video. I will give it a couple more tries though, thanks.
James Diaz
John Dunham and crew also posts stuff in twitter (like yuyucow) with frame by frame commentary. they have their own podcast too. never listened to it tho so I can't give an opinion
Luke Wright
Oh come on, it suffers from the same problem as One Punch Man did. It's incredibly one-note. The gimmick was clear and got stale by the end of episode 3. We get it, Mob is the fucking strongest esper around but he limits himself with his crippling self-loathing or whatever. Sometimes his emotions overflow and he loses his shit. This solves the problem. Rinse and repeat.
The visuals are out of this world though, so I'm not complaining.
Justin Wilson
Also just following up on this, if you want a good "diet" of animation to consume, then you want:
- Genius Party. Any of them really. - Actually anything by Studio 4c, even their franchise tie-ins (i.e. Batman) are great. - Kaiba, probably Yuasa's masterpiece - Sword of the Stranger, for 10/10 fight choreography - Gurren Lagann for Gainax's best artists doing what they love. - Birdy the Mighty Decode: 02 is actually a really good example of when animation takes the priority so much that the art just falls apart. Some people really hate it, I think it's great. I forget the name but there's a certain animator attributed heavily to this kind of direction (I think is responsible for the infamous Naruto fight where Pain just melts for no real reason) - Xam'd: Lost Memories is overall disappointing but has some amazing animation in terms of both character movement and action direction. End fight has some amazing Itano Circus. - In general, check out Itano Circus as a concept, as it's a well known animation tradition and it looks just awesome. - Norio Matsumoto and Yutaka Nakamura have been around for a while and are probably the better known "names" in terms of great animation.
Anthony Kelly
>anime or manga >good story It's stuff for children.
Go read a book.
David Lewis
no, it never really solves the problem. nothing will be solved if he resort to violence. that's what reigen has always been preaching all this time.
I don't even want to mention opm wherein you literally solve the problem with just a single punch
James Jones
Actually, I'm way ahead on this. I'm gonna defend Kaiba to the day I die. One of my absolute favorites in any form of visual entertainment, really. I've already watched everything you mentioned except Studio 4c tie-ins. Never considered them worthy of my time, really. Are those actually good? Guess I have some catching-up to do.
Ryan Young
Sakugafags and sakugablog mostly jerk off the staff of the animation and comments association of persons, they rarely say anything interesting about the cuts themselves.
Ian Brown
nice try m8
Anthony Wilson
I was gonna come to say this. "sakuga community" isn't about analysis or thinking, it's about mindless categorizing and being awed by shonenshit
the best writing about animation in anime is at anipages
Jack James
That's what I mostly dislike about Yuyucow and his circle of friends. They mostly just say "LOOK AT THIS GOOD ANIMATION, IT'S SO GOOD" without actually ever explaining anything. I know they are pretty much the best we currently have, but I would really like to see a more in-depth approach.
Bentley Ramirez
Never heard about anipages, looks interesting. Thanks! Will definitely give it a read.
Hudson Wright
exactly
basically all of it is just learning the names of people who did different scenes
Dylan Powell
too bad anipages is half dead. still has good inactive threads tho
Zachary Rivera
the site is dead now, since the author pretty much stopped caring and anime doesn't give any reason to, but it has 12 years worth of content and it has entries about some pretty obscure stuff that casual "sakugafags" from twitter haven't ever heard of.
Jace Moore
I haven't yet to seriously read his blog but it has been here for ages and only that is impressive, but the looks of the content is also impressive from a general point of view. I really should get into it but I guess I'm not that interested in some of the obscure things he covers.
One subject that interests me a lot is a comparison between Japanese and western animation. I despise the fact that Japanese animation was and is always considered subpar by a lot in the animation world (notably old Disney supporters I guess) "just" because it's economical and limited. I think a lot of concepts that emerged to limit the animation a great, and of course sometimes it involves non-animation (harmony shots, pillow shots...), but more and more I think it's meaningless (to me at least) to concentrate on animation without the directing and effect wanted behind.
One cut is nice, I love watching cuts of OPM, Mob and all, but I even more love to see how they manage to put out a final product (a series, a movie) with limited means (time, money, staff, certainly not talent) and passion as fuel.
As we often say, they are for a lot modern slave, and they still kick asses. I guess it must not be easy for them everyday but they "like" it and it's kinda great to forsake things like... money, for that matter.
After that I might idealize a bit or a lot all of this.
I think I strayed a lot from the comparison West/East but that's one of the central point of comparison to me, everything diverge from that (cheap and smart anime vs rich and academical disneys)
Kevin Campbell
let me give you a headstart >muh yutapon cubes >muh bones >muh kinoani >muh yamada >madhouse sucks >ufotable sucks
Jaxson Brown
Nice manga with story for children you got there.
John Gonzalez
He's a complete retard.
Kayden Allen
>I guess I'm not that interested in some of the obscure things he covers. What are you interested in, in terms of anime works?
West vs East is also covered in the anipages forum, look up the Peter Chung posts. They're pretty much the best writing there is on the subject
Kevin Rivera
>Also I like camonte/tamerlane, I don't remember if he did in-depth analysis of cuts (don't think so) but he has an extensive knowledge of world animation in all its variety, it's interesting. Come back to twitter m8
Why would you say this? At least he says interesting things that no one ever talks about, but I must admit I don't know him much as a person
In more or less everything, but not always. Sometimes curiosity might pick me and I could read obscure anipages stuff, I don't know.
But I have to admit I'm a normal-tasted pleb that likes Yutaka Nakamura, Norio Matsumoto and the webgen
Thanks I'll go check what you just said.
Easton Gonzalez
You literally don't get it.
Evan Rivera
And you missed all the psychology and symbolism because you got too distracted by the animation, yeah it happens.
Robert Gutierrez
Though I find Yutaka Nakamura disappointing lately.
And I love Gainax guys like Yoshinari too.
Cooper Adams
This is kind of true. It's like dota commentator against professional players with their views on the game.
Tyler Rivera
>which is pretty bad story-wise user please.
Owen Evans
But again I'm in "Sakugabooru" mode talking about the people rather than the animation.
I find the recent stylistic evolution of YN very interesting, it looks way more limited when it was very detailed in movements and choreography at the time of say, Darker Than Black or Soul Eater. Also what's with the slimy lava trope when rocks are melting?
Caleb Ward
>How does one get into in-depth sakuga analysis? What, you mean like appreciating the good points and criticising the weak points of the drawings/style/sense of movement etc?
Well the only way to get good, informed discussion is with a bunch of people with reasonable experience animating (or at least drawing) because a lot of flaws and strengths in a cut can be entirely stylistic. Knowing this, you can't really have an informed opinion on stylization without having in-depth knowledge of what they're stylizing and how they're doing it. This goes for both critics of artists and artists themselves (example: MP100 manga vs anime. ONE isn't a competent artist technically, his art is stiff and strewn with errors that just look bad, vs. the anime where the artists clearly know the forms they're working with and they're reducing them to simpler shapes to match the style of the manga. That said ONE's stylization itself would be quite good if he had the technical knowledge and skill to back it up, since it's a nice simplification that could be quite expressive in the hands of a good artist; again, see the anime).
However this is the internet, and there's never a guarentee the person you're discussing with is an expert or even has any idea what they're talking about at all. So the best way to get good discussion about sakuga is to go somewhere that animators go to discuss stuff, or just say fuck it and get ready to see a fuckload of retarded posts about how Bahi JD is shit because smears are for lazy animators or some other stupidity.
Cooper Peterson
I thought that his lava splatter was done on a tablet, well I feel like it is.
Josiah James
By sucking BahiJD cock on twitter.
Chase Ramirez
THIS. THIS SO MUCH IT SUCKS SO FUCKING BAD STORYWISE
Jaxson Collins
The fans often overestimate Mob. I've always heard that the manga was unique, different from the usual battle shonen and blah-blah-blah. But now, with the anime, I realize that it's basically the same thing. In fact, it is even more bland. I don't know if it improves in the following arcs, but, for now, is only average. Unique indeed it is the animation.
Connor Cooper
>The fans often overestimate ONE. ftfy
Justin Foster
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Gavin Gutierrez
>So, where do I start? Is there some kind of recommended reading on the topic? I'm starting to recognize animators by their style a little bit, but so far it's only the most obvious stuff and the biggest name like Kameda or Aninari. How does one get better at this? By watching even more stuff? Learning moonrunes? Stalking animators on twitter? It's just animation. If you want to be more knowledgeable, read about animation. There isn't separate theiry for "really good stuff".
Levi Lewis
I get the feeling that people who say "western cartoons are better at animation and anime is better at art" get that impression from all the low-budget long-runners that were the face of localized Japanese animation at the height of its American boom.
Joseph Walker
Learning how to see animation will require you to:
- learn art and everything that requires training to ben an artist (anatomy, color theory, perspective, etc, etc)
- learn animation, how the body works, how moving one limb will affect skin, bones, muscles, etc, etc. HUGE investment in time; animation is easily one hell of a career.
So yeah, want to learn how to "read" animation? Study. It can take from 8 to 12 years.
"Watching more anime" will never teach you anything at all, be it for appreciating animation, or any kind of valuable criticism (writing, acting, etc.)
Grayson Collins
Shut your ass up about Mob being not well written. Well other than that just watch, watch and watch sakuga and animation not only Japanese animation check out the amercian legends out too some are to this day the best. Try to find out why you like certain things and how a particular Animator animates his stuff with the help of the story board. Also helps to have a basic understanding of art, makes you appreciate everything a bit more. Other than read a lot till you feel confident to make your own opinions with backup. What i did was watching Movies too. Animators are heavily inspired by movie making, so get a good understadning of cinematography and direction too. That may even be the most important part.
James Scott
I don't know, it depends on the people.
Because sometimes people will say "Disney has better animation than anime" and the point can be discussed since there is a variety of anime, and Disney also have different people and 80 years of existence.
But people who say "cartoons are better in animation than anime" just because most of the time it's interpolated to 24fps so more fluid (actually they say it's more fluid, not better animated, but it's like it's the same for them) are mostly wrong I guess (even if we could still discuss it).
But I don't know, generalizations are wrong in general.
I also think that most of the people that prefer Western (Disney) animation either grew up with it or judge it on a theoretical level. Again I generalize and there are certainly people who waved though different point of views through their learning and are not that simply categorized.
But as I learnt about animation, I never was bothered by the lack of frame on Japanese animation (I mean, when it's well done, like Yoshinari Kanada's stylistic heritage, and the Looney Tunes for example). And sometimes even for emulating reality like in Okiura's animations on 2s or less, I don't think being on 1s would change that much. Look at GITS for example.
The golden standard that is animation on 1s seems just to be smoke and mirrors to me, and Disney's non-shading and round form really feels too flat to me. The illusion of life tend weirdly to being cartoon, but with their means they really could have developed something interesting by taking things to the Japanese.
In the end, I guess it's just a matter of taste and stylistic preference, really. I can't into Disney because I despise their academic tropes that please the American public, but I guess it's the same for Westerners than despise lots of QUALITY and big stylistic difference sometimes in a single episode, in anime.
Ryan Green
>So yeah, want to learn how to "read" animation? Study. It can take from 8 to 12 years.
I agree that knowledge about how to do animation helps understanding and having a point of view on animation.
But 8 to 12 years? Practice is hard, but is it really related to theory? You mean if you can't do it, you can't understand (then judge) it? I'm not saying you're wrong but that's really a question that bugs me, since I'm not sure we can ever agree on something here.
Someone who would have 2 year of experience say, and someone who would have 5 years, the latter guy would say "I'm the authority because I have more experience (or rather skills, since everybody do not evolve at the same pace), thus more understanding of the theory".
But if you're the former guy with few experience/skill you'll never be able to tell for sure if the guy is really more right or wrong than you. I don't think there is such an authority related to experience, rather a change of point of view, but the point of view always change, no matter if you've got little or big experience. Point of view is simply mood and taste of the moment I guess. That's why it's a medium (like most of art) that works on passion and the will of the creator, and shouldn't be too much "objective" in judgement.
I feel like you should really trust your own judgement more. But the best way to do it is certainly to learn art, yeah.
Josiah Ortiz
Well the troubled middle schooler is the part that is so incredible about it for most people. Its very relatable and lighthearted at first but every now and then some really strong character development shines through. It doesnt try to be something it isnt and totally knows what it is and what it has to do. A comical coming of age story with a psychic twist. Other than that its funny as fuck(reigen character of the year) and the story has a nice flow, it doesnt drag at all may even go too fast for a few episodes. And all that is not even related to the directing and animation. Combine all those things and you have a solid 8+/10 anime. That will probably be remebered by a lot of critics in the next few years.
Nicholas Thomas
The pattern Mob Psycho usually follows are pretty cliched story arcs until I other Mob or Reigen takes things off the rails in a pretty interesting way.
Instead of joining the telepathy club, which was built up to be basically made for Mob, he joins the body improvement club instead. This isn't just a one time gag before he quits the club immediately either, the body improvement club end up being extremely supportive and kind to Mob for his dedication, and help out a lot with his development.
Mob outright refuses to participate in the rival battle he is presented with. Instead of being some equally matched and intense battle, Mob unintentionally shatters the ego of Teru and causes the guy to grow as a person and improve himself.
The battle shonen pattern of the current arc in the anime goes on for a bit longer than it should in my opinion, but Reigen's involvement in it might change your mind about it.
Parker Anderson
>Shut your ass up about Mob being not well written. the plot is thin as fuck
Jack Torres
Wanna see another reason why you will NEVER learn more about animation just "watching anime"? See all these idiots that started talking about Mob 100 instead of the theme. Just leave this place. I would refer you to /ic, but that place is garbage since it was infested with 16-21y olds.
Blake Evans
Dude thats just their opinion, i dont agree with everything they say. You cant say much about Mob cause its just that fucking amazing right now. But i am critical of their opinions and so should you be. Just cause they own a site doesnt mean that they are objectively right. But they are good conversation staters and source of information so i am really glad they do what they do.
Juan Stewart
>the plot is thin as fuck The show focuses on the development of an overarching plot and more on the development of its characters. The characters are deep as hell.
As the series goes on, every arc will have some effect on the development of some characters. You'll care less about the event transpiring and more about the effect this will have on the daily lives on the characters you've grown to know and love. It'll surprise you how many characters develope and how deep that development is.
The same goes for One Punch Man. Lightning Max and fucking Puri Puri Prisoner, two characters that are hardly central to the plot at all, get some development off of the Sea King fight. Shame the tournament arc is so fucking boring.
It's a style of writing that I like, but you might not.
Ryder Sanchez
>The show focuses on the development LESS on the development of an overarching plot. Jumped the gun on my post.
David Ward
A story doesnt need a super deep plot to work. Kino no tabi, Space dandy and cowboy bepop were good on their own, with their Episode for episode stories. Whats important are the themes. There is a overarching goal but its not that important in the now. Mob Psycho focusses on the present, how will all these experiences influence Mob as a character and how will Mob influence other people. All this happens in a seemingly standard shonen environnment with a psychic protagonist. Its a character coming of age story with a lot of lighthearted funky humour. If you dont like Mob as a character and you dont feel the Humour this anime wont click with you. Not even the animation will able to save it for you. Its not for everyone and the artsyle doesnt make it more engageable but its a great story, that is just not for you.
Caleb Morris
Do people really like anitwitter jesus?
Justin Green
They're not amazing but if you liked the variety of Genius Party then it's just that, just less weird.
Grayson Russell
Actually the part in Birdy was corrected for the BDs, but both TV and BD versions are at a finished state with digital lineart and all, it's interesting and pretty rare.
As for animation, I'd recommend to watch omnibuses like Memories, Neo Tokyo or Robot Carnival too.
Lincoln Perry
Everyone is a hack fraud
Joseph Scott
Remember when Yuyucow badly quoted the KyoAni Euphonium interview to make it look like it was yuri to defend his precious KyoAni from "queerbaiting" accusations because he is a SJW?
Thomas Kelly
You regress enough to wear diapers, listen to Coldplay, wear glasses without lenses, a scruffy beard, a faggot haircut and a cap in your 30+
Jeremiah Hernandez
>Yutaka Nakamura, Norio Matsumoto and the webgen Nothing wrong with that, Nakamura and Matsumoto are among the best action animators, and the webgen style has its unique visual appeal. Liking some obscure animator doesn't mean anything.
Liam Reyes
Yuyucow and his sakugabooru friends are a mistake. Vito was right.
Sebastian Cooper
Source?
Oliver Wood
>The characters are deep as hell. Deep? They're charismatic, but, c'mon, they're just like the characters from Naruto or Bleach. Far from "deep".
John Evans
>Comparing 50000 episodes to merely 10 Good job there user.
Tyler Cooper
...
Jace Gomez
I read the manga. They are as deep as the characters in Gintama. What it is not a bad thing, but please stop overestimating it.
Henry Stewart
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Dylan Taylor
...
Grayson Watson
It wouldn't be bad if you went to /his/ or /lit/ and ask for some theoric background. Some times it isn't so much that you lack information, but you don't have the tools to properly translate what you know into a new or more cocrete idea. No one is supposed to be born with all the knowledge to properly do any task, that's not how anything works.
Eli Lopez
>animeonlys
Colton Johnson
I would love to see that source as well so that I can save it.
Adam Sullivan
>Learning moonrunes? Stalking animators on twitter? These are probably the most useful. There's a lot of interesting interview with animators out there but most of them don't get translated.
Grayson Clark
What can you analyse with knowledge of moon and animators stalk?
Wyatt Brown
A number of animators like to reveal what they are working on or did on Twitter, and you can get information like what an animator's influences are from interviews.
Nathan Sullivan
meme psyco is terrible. Also proof that sakuga alone cant carry terrible writing and character design.
Try animating. Even if you suck, which you will, you'll get a feel for how animators do things and understand the craft better.
Sakuga twitter is good for identifying what upcoming anime will be well animated, but is devoid of original thought and cares little for anything older. Busterbeam's probably the one exception still around.
