Give me an argument against communism that isn't MUH STALIN MUH GULAGS MUH HUMAN NATURE...

Give me an argument against communism that isn't MUH STALIN MUH GULAGS MUH HUMAN NATURE. None of that is a valid argument. Everything you know about USSR and Stalin is a lie concocted by cold war propagandists. Argue against the ideology itself. Find a flaw in the IDEA of Communism. You cannot. It's the best system for humanity and we are inevitably progressing towards it.

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good luck taxing my bitcoins

Commies would murder me and my family.

free stuff gives humanity no reason to exist
kys commie cuck

>all communism tried that failed wasnt REAL communism
>so we should try to

There is no incentive for working and no proper method for determining the value of goods.

there's no flaw against the idea that the rich should share their wealth with the poor

the idea that the rich should be forced to share their wealth with the poor is fucking retarded

>find a flaw in the idea, not in it's viability or previous implementation guise
Listen dipshit, communism is as wonderful an idea as giving every person in the world enough food to live for the rest of their lives, but that doesn't mean it's possible to implement.
Your ideology is a fairy tale, an ideal that can't be achieved and is worthless in the process of implementing it.

Yeah we’ll get there in 50 Years once we develop sophisticated ai capable of fully replacing humans in every aspect of the work force. I’m fine with it then since there’s no other choice. But after that your oh so precious niggers and islamics will either ruin it either because an ai is developed and proves god isn’t real, or theyll just continue to spread their degenerate retarded culture. Then there’ll be a war and all that’ll be left are the Jews and some robots. The end.

youtube.com/watch?v=jFxWXbdqGIg

>find a flaw in the IDEA
>you cannot

Then why does it keep failing the transition from idea to practice?

Sage

You made the assertion that Gommunism is great, the onus is on you to prove this.

So let's start with what do you do for work? What do you suppose your position/job will be in worker's paradise gommunism? What does gommunism offer me?

Communism is false idealogy just like believing in flat earth. Only way to make this system afloat is to force it or let it collapse. Therefore stallinism is natural consequence of applied communism. And no, no one wants to be cattle for state, even you, OP, if did you wouldn't mind the injustice of capitalism either.

You aren't fucking entitled to anything you privileged fuck

there are no black co-ops that form, only black markets

sage

>give me an argument
>but not one that i can't defeat
slide thread. i just dropped by to tell everyone to ignore it

OK

>the LTV
is wrong. Commodities are used in every step of the production chain. Machines DO produce value in mechanically the exact same way as humans do. Additionally, Sraffan analysis shows that you CAN NOT derive stable/equilibrium prices from labor-value analysis, but you CAN quite easily derive the ratios of their exchange from the raw physical data.

>the transformation problem
There can't be constant and falling rates of profit across industries, despite Marx's claims.

>Falling rate of surplus value and wages
empirically wrong. See: the median incomes of EVERY capitalist country steadily rising for practically as long as they have been capitalist.

>currency and finance
Are constructive and hugely important institutions which have made possible the explosive growth of, for example, the industrial and tech revolutions.

>everyone being financially equal will make everyone happier!
fucking wrong. Whether or not you're happy, at the end of the day, is decided by you and the people around you, not by income. Furthermore, happiness is achieved not by instant gratification, but by fruitful labor and constantly raising quality of life, something that capitalism allows.

>muh exploitation
is a philosophical abstraction that has been psychologically falsified. Meaningful labor CAN and DOES occur within capitalist production.

>give the government 100% power over everything!
How retarded can you be to not see the problem with this? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Just look at ANY socialist regime today.

...

Like Nazis wouldn't kill your NEET ass
Communists would give you more money
What? It's the end goal of humanity. It's the utopia.
It wasn't. It was State capitalism, social market, Maoism, Juche, Titoism, etc. but there has never been a pure Marxist society implemented
And there are incentives now? Put yourself in debt goy, shine your masters shoes while he gives you .01% of his net worth while you work paycheck to paycheck. Great system chief.
True blue Communists abhor idpol and you'd know that if you've read. Islamists and trans and other useful idiots would be purged in the revolution.
It is possible though, especially with automation and technological advancements. Social democracy is a few steps away from communism and it works wonders.
I am studying to be a graphic designer. I will design propaganda or advertisement for the state.

Having 0.1% in charge of all wealth tricking every citizen that their lives are better because they are all equally poor. Communism is for people with no ambition but full of jealousy.

>Communists would give you more money

The only thing communists can give is death, famine and poverty.

Labour only has value if what it produces has value, and that value is inherently decided by the person buying/wanting it.

This is reality and completely at odds with communism

One is not allowed to work for his own needs and for his own wants and desires. Individualism is essentially killed in a communist society for the "good of the collective" when in all actuality, a society in which the individual is most valued, and individuals are given freedom to pursue their ambitions, is the greatest because everyone is doing as best they can with no limit to what they can do. Communism is the foolish philosophy of "I'm breathing you owe me something", can you not see how truly greedy this is?

MUH FOOD

>Ignore every time its been put into practice and argue about magic words on pieces of paper

It could be the ideology of curing cancer and unicorns it doesn't mean shit when its applied in real life.

Fucking leftists, I swear, have some mental disorder that detaches them from reality.

My mom lived for 30 years in soviet union until moving to st louis in 2002.

sHE SAID: everyone had a job, everyone was doing something, everyone had over 30 days PAID vacation to go somewhere warm, everyone could be trusted to watch your kid

WHAT U HEAR ABOUT COMMUNISM ON WIKIPEDIA IS A MEME

Communism rejects the concept of supply and demand. Supply and demand is based on scarcity, and since scarcity will always exist, communism is fundamentally flawed and cannot work.

>muh anecdotal evidence
literally not an argument

>Give me an argument against communism that isn't one of these arguments that have debunked communism time and time again

Communism = kike dictatorship

Give me an argument against communism and you can't use these 3 very valid arguments

how is it not an argument? this is legitimately what happened to her and my grandparents in russia

you got any non anecdotal evidence besides wikipedia or reddit?

> Give me an argument
> Nothing that has been historically proven as fact is a valid argument

Typical slave of the jew, bound by nothing but his ever ending faith to a political ideology that has caused nothing but suffering and atrocities to every people/culture/nation it has seized control over.

See you on the streets commie filth I hope you’ve been lifting and you are as loyal to your cause as you claim

>It wasn't. It was State capitalism, social market, Maoism, Juche, Titoism, etc
That's fucking wrong. They tried as hard as they could to implement Marxism in the USSR, but even fucking Lenin realized after massive famines that about half of Marx was bonkers destructive, and reformed with the NEP. They succeeded in China in implementing many of Marx's agenda--ever heard of the cultural revolution?

Unless you mean to say that communism (the ideal state after an indefinitely long transition period) has never been implemented, which is actually true, because post-scarcity is logically impossible since resources will always be scarce and people will always compete for them.

Marxism repudiates human nature, just like feminism and post modernism.
You are in need of a ride in a helicopter, sun.

Private property isn't the community's to take by force, but to communists, it is.
If you purchase and build "capital" or "factory equipment" with your own money and sweat, commies think they are justified in killing you if you don't willingly give it up for the "community leaders." Commies also simultaneously believe that the product of your labor belongs to you alone.
Once commies take over the factories they have literally no say in who gets to use the equipment, because nobody has the right to control who uses capital. The next group of idiots can easily accuse you of being capitalists and turn you into fertilizer for standing in their way.
Imagine the same factory scenario, except now the factory produces silicon computer chips. The idea of an operation continuing to run smoothly after being taken over, after having all the productive skilled people kicked out, and still managing to keep a lid on things is incredibly naïve. But this is how communists think.
It is a dictatorship of barbarians. A stateless state of confusion and contradiction.

People wont be forgotten if they produce for themselves.

There are two legitimate arguments that can be made against communism
1. Lack of incentivisation for high skill labor (neuro-surgeons for example)
2. Lack of incentivisation for random innovation (so not like actual scientific and technological progress but for shit that we "didnt even know we wanted until we got them" like the internet i guess)
>t. A commie

>everyone had a job, everyone was doing something,
sounds right, even if you hated your job or were doing something totally unproductive
>everyone had over 30 days PAID vacation to go somewhere warm
She was lucky, most people it was only 15

>WHAT U HEAR ABOUT COMMUNISM ON WIKIPEDIA IS A MEME
not all the brutal police state stuff, which is verified from innumerable first hand accounts

>Because I would actually like to get rid of the Kikes as opposed to being even more their hapless slave.

The problem is that man cannot dominate nature. The strong should not carry the weak, the strong should SURVIVE the weak.
The fundamental failure of your argument is that human nature is separate from communism. People are inherently greedy - we want enough to persist, and if that's achieved then thrive. We want to be the best we can be and do the best we can do. Greed itself isn't bad, it can become ambition, but with communism all greed does is centralize power around the exact sort of bourgeois you claim it saves everyone from.
Literally, capitalism creates the Jew. You see the Jew and call him porky, thinking he is one of us. He is in fact, one of you. He created communism as a form of goyim enslavement. We finally killed it in the nineties and you have to bring it fucking back? What shame, fool that you are.
Without need, without ambition, without drive, assuming that the theoretical, in a vacuum ideology were alive, what kills it is a lack of incentive. Technology, culture, and the pursuit of happiness would never progress. At best, we could plateau and mitigate the losses.
Here's what your ideology creates: "revolutionary," violent extremists with low testosterone, serotonin and IQ. Often times they are homosexual, they are liberal even, and prone to frequent bouts of depressive, morbid, Ecstasy addiction-similar tantrums. How could you say this group represents your actual ideal? How could you say this group could even become your ideal, such as they are?
Losers them, and loser you. Now the fool is me, for even responding to you.

Faggot

Gommunism gud
gIT FRe Moni

If everyone gets paid the same why would i do some bullshit for 8 years to

youtube.com/watch?v=300D3GXH4fc

Imagine that the socialist revolution occurs not all at once, but in stages, so that for some period of time there is one capitalist and one communist block of societies. There exists in this situation a huge individual incentive for movement across borders.
In the capitalist country, the sick, dumb, lazy, disabled people will be inclined to move to the communist country, where they will be provided with resources according to their needs.
In the free communist country people who are smart, healthy, hard working and talented will have an inclination to leave for the capitalist country, where they will be provided with goods based on what they can produce.

Thus, the communist country has a natural inclination, because the first generation will have grown up with Capitalist values, to destroy the capitalist country or to lock down its borders. Either way paves the descent into tyranny.

>I am studying to be a graphic designer.

Unemployed and unemployable. Just as I suspected. Now tell me, Gomrade, how will gommunism help me?

> muh Lenin
> muh Mao
> muh Pol Pot
> muh Ho Chi Minh
> Muh Chavez
> Muh Castro
...

The goal of a Communist State would be to run all enterprises in the state to produce the most benefit.

Because of the fact that the state would be run essentially as a business ,i.e., to produce benefits, and because the fact that this state would have no competition for economic production would more or less make the state a giant monopoly. A large reason for the creation of labor movements was the pressure that advanced industry could create on a society; i.e., a society with large monopolies virtually is run by them.

So, because of the difficulties caused by large empowered monopolist businesses state communism creates a large empowered monopolist business.

free stuff is money.

Communism turns the entire country into the corporation that you so desperately want to destroy. Instead of working for whoever pays the most, a communist "utopia" forces individuals to work for their corporate government. By not allowing retirement until a certain age and outlawing all suppliers of jobs other than the corporate government, a monopoly is created and both laborers and managers are squeezed of their wages to increase the profit of the corporate government. The result: 99% of the top 1% of income earners you hate so much are dragged into poverty, while the top 1% of the 1% are the only beneficiaries of the corporate government and live in fantastic, unimaginable wealth

>being such a useful idiot

I'd gladly give my life to rid the world of the plagues known as Niggers, Jews, and Commies.

you have to get rid of people who are good at managing business in order for it to exist. this naturally creates a situation where people who dont know what they are doing having to learn at a breakneck pace so they naturally make mistakes. and what was it all for? absolutely nothing as the system still did not free men as it said that it would

I feel like the key concept all the conservatives/cappies itt conpletely forget that the modern communist is one who recognizes that capitalism's inherent drive for more wealth will ALWAYS lead to the destruction of the environment because we only have so many resources. The modern commie recognizes that communism in todays modernized society will only be successful if ALL forms of manual labor required for a society to function is met by automated labor. Its not a hard concept, and we are getting closer and closer to this point. Think about it. What will happen to all of the farmers when they arent needed? They have basically no education, so they will be living off the government. Communism will eventually be necessary in order to keep society from collapsing in on itself and still have all citizens live comfortably.

>but there has never been a pure Marxist society implemented

there have been many attempts, even in small rural communities in the US. All attempts have failed.

anecdotal evidence is just that - an anecdote, a flawed appeal to emotion
it is invalid

I grew up in Soviet Union and had to study scientific communism. It doesn't work. It doesn't work because they insist on pricing products at cost. It means non tangibles like skills are priced at zero. For all this shit to work, you need to go against game theory. You need to convince people to work more for no reward. Because what really happened and should happen is the groups worked at the worst member levels and productivity decreased. It doesn't work. Plus you have to force people to swallow the shit ideology like a gospel of truth and science.

>for communism to ever work, we need to have technology that basically does everything for us

youtube.com/watch?v=300D3GXH4fc

Yup. This is the essence of the venus project and why it's commie retardation.

I mean, yeah. Basically. Thats the entire point of modern communism in terms of avoiding the whole "muh stalinism isnt communism" rhetoric. The proletariat will only revolt when society gets poor enough, aka, when their jobs are taken bu robots that the proletariat had no say in their implementation.

Socialism is a pyramid scheme, you need more workers on the bottom to support cradle to grave benefits but the nanny state skills birth rates and then the next thing you know you're importing AlQaeda

>I am studying to be a graphic designer. I will design propaganda or advertisement for the state.
That's a funny way of saying I want other people to pay for my shit life decisions.

I'll pass thanks

sage

It doesn't reward one for one's initiative, creativity, and productivity.

iIt rewards lackadaisical behavior.

It does nothing to instill a sense of pride.

No motivation to do better.

No motivation to BE better.

Holy shit Communism and Autism are two drugs that shouldn't be mixed together. You should kill yourself.

>Give me an argument against communism that isn't MUH STALIN MUH GULAGS MUH HUMAN NATURE
>no, don't give me a reasonable answer

Economic Calculation

>defend a made up ideology that is impossible to practice outside of theory
2/10 people replied.

Well thats just getting into philosophy. Why do humans need to be better than someone who is biologically our equal?(not counting for obvious genetic traits, but you get what im saying, we all have 46 chromosomes)

I just want to take a moment to thank you all. I have a final exam essay for my political ideologies class and I have to write a critique for Marxism. This thread made really good points.

>Everything you know about USSR and Stalin is a lie concocted by cold war propagandists.

men as a species have an unlimited pool of wants and desires. society simply does not stop as soon as we have robots. we will move on to solve man's next big problem. as for the farmer, he must adapt in order to survive. we have seen a similar trend happen during the industrial revolution, so it is ridiculous to assume he would not be able to adapt.

One of the founding principles is literally the elimination of government, as seen by Marx. Of course it wouldn't work.

Im in Cross Examination debate where im mainly critiquing capitalism, but uyou always love these threads becbecause it allows me to pprepare for some arguments that ibe never heard before.

commies get the bullet too.

why do all men have to be the same?

Where is he going to go? Asides from space, which is an entirely different area, there wont be any field for them to go into for their lack of education. Its funny because the free college thing alot of "socialists" promote these days may actually deter the farmer from revolting because he'll have the education to move on.

>capitalism
>work to earn what you can achieve
>communism
>work to be given what someone thinks is fair
Both can be corrupted. Which sounds better? The one that incentivizes people to work hard to achieve dreams, or one that encourages you to do "government work" i.e. don't work too hard as it won't change your pay.

Sure.
>Marx's labor theory of value is wrong and was rather definitively refuted by Bohm-Bawerk to the point that almost no reputable economists accept LTV. >Hisotrical materialism is largely useless.
>The idea that popular revolution happens without elite patronage is total nonsense - struggle between elite power centers is much better for explaining historical events than the development of the forces of production
>Central planning seems ineffective.
>Most "Communist" regimes stopped being Communist in short order and "degenerated" to State Capitalism.
>The idea that human nature is contingent on the mode of production, in particular that hierarchies will evaporate under the Communist mode of production, is nonsense.
>The very idea of a public/private distinction is nonsense.

Your goals are unobtainable and in direct conflict with your core motto.

My philosophical argument here is (and this WILL sound really autistic) when you see movies or video games set in the far future, you dont see "Russians" or "Americans", you see "Humans" or "Human Alliance". Basically, if aliens are real, we'll need to get our shit together as a species real quick. Im a futurist.

was invented by jews

>argue against an ideology that is essentially bastardized hegel.

we are progressing towards a world where the workers control the means of production(ideology)? Or do you think "we'll have a group of officials who account for the worker's interests and equitably divide everything"?

Both are dubious claims... capatialism is closer to equitable division (i.e. universal basic income), than any not-real-communism state has ever been.

>capitalism is literally centered around getting more money

then he will go into education
as for the 'socialist' education problem. if the problem of automation becomes a burden then the government would naturally make adjustments to her public school program, just as she did during the industrial revolution.

that is a big if sonny

Unless it is National Socialsm it will not work.

wow yeah, basing your view of the trajectory of mankind on videogames and movies IS autistic.

There isn't a flaw in the 'idea' of communism. There's a flaw in the nature of humans called 'greed'.

You can take the animal out of the wild, but you will never take the wild out of the animal. The fact of the matter is communism doesn't work, not without being tainted by capitalist elements. Just like lassez-faire capitalism doesn't work because even capitalism needs a touch of socialist restraint.

In a real communist society people don't line up for the 'free money' booth. They line up for basic necessities booths. Everything they do is appropriated by the government. Governments that are easily corruptable.

Even if you started out with the unicorn perfectly socialist 'utopia'... Give it a few years. The greed of not just the leaders, but the proletariat itself will fucking ruin it. Hence why you need to be running an authoritarian/one party state to keep most communist economies even functioning.

The idea isn't in itself bad, it's just a total pipe dream.

It don't work

Fuck Communism

>implying I don't want to put fascists, bourgeois, and liberals in gulags

First, thats only if the teaching isnt taken over by AI. We already know about robot teachers in thea status quo, so its not far fetched. Second, I was critquing the modern socialist viewpoint on higher education, saying it may deter the farmer from revolting because they will be able to find a job. Third, yeah, it is a big if, but it's an even bigger universe. I'm not saying it will happen, but wouldnt you rather not have the chance of being BTFOd by some fucker who thinks youre sub-human?

Economic Calculation Problem

>Everyone owns the means of production
>Trade requires two parties
>Therefore no trade in the means of production
>Trade generates prices
>Thus no prices and efficient allocation of the means of production

Mises destroyed socialism in 1920

>OP

Id say its more like "but dont give me 4, give me a different way of getting to 4"

I really like communism because it makes disabled people like me dont have to work.

Well of course you'd say that... fucking commie bastard.

Communism is just a facade to absorb billions of Mongloids to build bigger armies. The
The active measures of Communist Subversion of ideology into the US during the 1970's was implying Asian , Siberians must own North America since they were first. Communism forces a theocracy .
Communism is racist.
The only winning argument to any Communist Government is the First Strike factor, so communism has already declared to fuck up the planet with nuclear fallout, it is just a matter of when. that is why Communism is so dangerous.