Serious question for neopagans

Okay, so imagine that one way or another Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are out of the picture and we're all living in le pagan paradise. I think the idea, from what I've gotten from other conversations with neopagans, is that the Nords would be worshiping Thor and co., the Greeks would be worshiping Zeus and co., the Slavs would be worshiping Perun and co., and so on.

So here's the question: what happens if you, a proud Nord, suddenly find out that a Sub-Saharan African (or many Sub-Saharan Africans, maybe even a whole country) wants to convert to Asatru, for seemingly pure intentions? That is, they legitimately think Asatru is true (or truer than their own native beliefs at least). What do you do? Does the answer change based on if it's just one guy or a lot? Does it change if it's a less drastic example, like a Greek wants to stop worshiping Zeus and worship Thor?

>a Sub-Saharan African (or many Sub-Saharan Africans, maybe even a whole country) wants to convert to Asatru, for seemingly pure intentions?
They don't. But assuming they have some reason to, which they don't, they can do so in their own countries. Stopping worshipping Zeus to worship Thor is pretty pointless considering they are both the Thunder god of a specific regional variant of the wider Indo-European religion.

Honestly user, if they wish they to halt the worship of their regional gods just to move somewhere else (although doubt it); they would take this is consideration

>remember that most gods have almost similar roles (ie: Thor and Zeus = Thunder Gods, Hel and Hades = Gods of the underworld, etc.)
>do some research about the gods from Region A compared to Region B
>trust in your gut feelings
>to note that some of the regional gods have also a major cultural and heritage root

And my list goes on an on...

>which they don't

What if they think it's true? I'd say that's as good a reason as any.

>Stopping worshipping Zeus to worship Thor is pretty pointless considering they are both the Thunder god of a specific regional variant of the wider Indo-European religion

I would argue that it's not very rigorous to gloss over the many and varied differences between the mythologies of Zeus and Thor. But you've said something interesting here about the "wider Indo-European religion." Do you mean that those pagans who fall into this category are essentially one religion with different iterations? As opposed to, say, an African indigenous religion? In that case, is there any sense (even a limited one) in which this prospective convert African kangdom would be privileged above other African countries with regards to Europe?

Well, like I said, we're assuming here that these guys want to convert with pure intentions.

And again, maybe it's just my opinion as an outsider, but it seems like doing a disservice to each of these European mythologies to say that they're basically the same because of a common root.

Worshipping someone else’s god is cuckoldry, it’s believing your ancestors were wrong and needed to worship someone else’s ancestors. An African worshiping European gods takes his inferior position in the same way if he was complecant as a slave or servant.

But it seems to be the case that SOMEONE's ancestors were wrong, right? Zeus can't be king of the gods if Amaterasu is.

It also strikes me that you say "worship ancestors." Do you take paganism as a form of ancestor worship? I know it's very tied to European heritage and the like, but do you go so far as calling it ancestor worship?

In general most pagan religions aren't exclusive like Abrahamic ones. They generally don't care what others believe or have any interest in evangelizing or spreading their faith like Christians or Muslims.

Your afterlife is largely determined by your actions rather than what you believe. Many Christians suggest if you don't do some rituals having to do with Jesus in life, you'll go to hell, where as with pagans it doesn't matter who you believe in, it's how you act that determines where you go.

When you lack a bible and something so centralized like the Catholic church determining what is and isn't "legal" it's pretty open. There is no "THIS is how you worship Thor and all other ways are wrong and if you call him Raiden or Perun you're evil and must be killed."

...

>wants to convert to Asatru, for seemingly pure intentions?
How would this be an interaction between the two parties. You don't need anyone's permission to worship a god. Religion isn't copyrighted intellectual property, he can do whatever he wants, and in a normal world he's in Africa, so no one would give a fuck about what he does or believes in.

I understand, but in my humble opinion this idea (implicit though it may be) that the truth changes depending on what ethnicity/culture you are seems like a pretty strong nail in the coffin for neopaganism.

Well, if these Africans started worshiping Thor without asking first you can imagine how this board would react. "REE fucking niggers stole our gods!" Furthermore, it makes sense that if you want to convert to a religion you seek the experience of those who've been doing it a long time. Notwithstanding rituals (which I'm assured have no fixed canon), you want somebody to at least come and teach you about the stories associated with the religion, the cosmology, and so on.

>I understand, but in my humble opinion this idea (implicit though it may be) that the truth changes depending on what ethnicity/culture you are seems like a pretty strong nail in the coffin for neopaganism.
Who are you or I to understand how the gods work? Why can a god not have many faces? Maybe the heavens are different depending on who perceives them?

Many pagans don't have a priest class the same way we understand it as a Christian society. You may have an elder who remembers and passes on the old stories and years of wisdom to share but rituals are more social and informal. You don't need a priest to help you pray to Thor, though you may ask an elder what may be a good sacrifice to him.

It's a tricky thing to understand at times, as (I'm guessing) you, like myself, were raised Christian and surrounded by them our whole lives, it is ingrained in our society and colours how we perceive things. The old ways are very different and sometimes hard to understand without lots of study. Just the lack of "a bible" is alien to most Western (and Eastern!) faiths.

I think the idea that Thor and Zeus and Perun and others are actually double-secretly the same is patently bunk. Even if you can trace them back to an Indo-European religion, the development that each has undergone has ended up making them different entities. To say otherwise, again, seems to obviously disrespect the richness of each of these traditions. Zeus doesn't use a hammer. Thor isn't married to the goddess of matrimony and monogamy. Forget "I need to believe correctly or else I'll go to hell!" What if I want to believe correctly because I care about the truth and want to believe in the truth? At the very least if you want to pull "O great mystery," it makes sense to go more on the "transcendent" end of the scale of deities (for example Hindu Brahma) than the "personal" end that's embodied by Greek and Norse pantheons.

>Maybe the heavens are different depending on who perceives them?

I'm not po-mo enough for this meme.

Despite the lack of a priestly class, I'm guessing you'd say there's enough of an orthodoxy to neopaganism to be able to shut down those who would say that racemixing is good or neutral?

Besides, the way you describe the lack of a priestly class basically just sounds the same as Protestant Christianity, which (I assume) is what you grew up around based on your flag. Doesn't seem to require too much of a paradigm shift there

Guess it depends what you want from your religion.

I guess I feel one doesn't know the truth of things until it is experienced. The truth of religion is only found after death, isn't it? So really, in life, religion is about what helps you get through the day, as in the end how you live your life is more important that what name you call your god and how you follow them, no?

why worship anything tho?

>The truth of religion is only found after death, isn't it?

I don't necessarily agree, but I suppose it's possible. At any rate, I think you don't have much of a shot at finding the truth before death if you're not even willing to say that your religion is universally true.

>So really, in life, religion is about what helps you get through the day

I don't want to psychoanalyze here because I know it's horrible manners to do so, but here's the thing: from where I'm standing it looks like neopagans are literally just atheists who recognize the social benefits of religion, but only put up the slightest, most delicate veneer that they actually think it's true. Forgive me if I'm wrong in my interpretation, but this is just how it looks to me.

>in the end how you live your life is more important that what name you call your god and how you follow them

But how you live your life is part-and-parcel of how you follow your god. I think it seems artificial to divide the two. I don't think this is too "Abrahamic" of an idea, since I'm sure you'd say that a woman who regularly burns coal and calls herself a devout Asatruar isn't following Thor correctly based on how she's living her life.

I'd also point out that, again, you cannot boil down the differences between gods to "just a different name." If you get tripped up by the fact that Thor and Zeus are both storm gods, then how about comparing Zeus and Ra? Kings of their respective pantheons, but one is a storm god and the other is a sun god. What's the deal?

There are two aspects to religion: The social and the metaphysical.

The social benefits are quantifiable and observable, arguably a science.

The metaphysical aspects are wholly unknowable before death, barring true supernatural stuff happening, which never really does, does it?

So no religion can be proven true before it's too late, right?

And you are quite correct, how you follow faith and how you live your life are closely related, but all religion is interpretation until a verifiable god shows up and lays down the law. We can guess that Thor would want you to continue to honor your ancestors and live a brave and honorable life, does he approve of race mixing? We don't know, also what counts as "race mixing" for him? We're all pretty mixed race compared to 1000 years ago, never mind 5000 years ago, so they idea may no longer have meaning. He could also be staggeringly racist and only allow blue eyed, blonde haired, pure blood Norwegians into Valhalla. We have no way of knowing.

I don't feel "tripped up" at all. If you put all the pre-Christian gods into a database, you would see lots of similarities between many of them. So many so that you have to wonder if they are related or the same with a different face.

Some change and divide and rejoin. For example, Bast and Sekhmet are both Egyptian cat goddesses. Are they the same or different? It is hard to say as over the hundreds (thousands?) of years of their worship they have both changed, shared and swapped attributes.

Is this one god who who has many faces and doesn't care what you call her ("her"?) because she is above such pettiness and knows your heart, or is it a dozen gods who are each very similar but separate?

Another example if Freyja/Frigga/Frijjo. It seems that the prot-Germanic goddess Frijjo transformed into both Freyja and and Frigga, except that also many stories seem to also swap the two and can get confusing. Is this a single god with multiple aspects or several related ones?

Truth is, there may be just one god period and we're just seeing different faces of it, or it could be that there are millions of gods all around us. Anyone who claims to know the truth is lying or delusional.

I've got this one. Short answer is no. Ancestor worship is an integral part of the process, so since the new converts can't tie their lineage to your lineage, what they call their deities is less important day to day. They will remain an outgroup to the greatest degree because they are not even extended kin. That doesn't mean you necessarily wish them I'll, but they aren't your concern either.

Culture of the Teutons is a must read work for understanding the world view instead of just the symbols.

It doesn't change truth at all. Dishonorable wretches are wretches regardless of what they do. Mutual respect and a focus on deeds and reputation is applied consistently to all humanity. But a pagan only has to focus on the greatness and luck of his ancestors and posterity. That attitude extends to everyone else.

>The metaphysical aspects are wholly unknowable before death, barring true supernatural stuff happening, which never really does, does it?

This also seems to be an unqualified metaphysical assertion. It's basically a defeatist attitude. If you throw up your hands and say it's unknowable so you never make an attempt, then you ain't got much of a shot at actually finding out.

I probably agree that empirical proof can, for most of us, only be found after death. But this doesn't mean that we have to resign ourselves to complete unknowability. Like I said, I'm not po-mo enough for that kind of crap.

Paganism doesn't make a claim that your Gods are the only correct choice (as there are many), but it makes a claim that they are correct for you and yours.

We deeply desire to. Humility, cultural bonding, ceremony etc. It's human.

Is it universally true that my father is my father?

I'm unfamiliar with the term "po-mo".

It isn't a defeatest attitude as much as a "go out and live your life rather than sit in a corner and wring your hands over if god is pissed that you wanked last night and you'll never get into heaven now." I think that is a big thing about paganism, it is about living. Go do your best and make your gods and ancestors smile in pride down upon you. You do this by going out and living well and doing things.