Who was in the wrong here, Sup Forums?

Who was in the wrong here, Sup Forums?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=D1JWkV8qftc
nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project
youtube.com/watch?v=-wgt1OBjAPA
youtu.be/8xRaJ5QA1kk?t=2m57s
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

The government, big time. All the reasons they used to get warrants for Koresh turned out to be false. It was a show of force.

Even the sloppiest surveillance would have revealed Koresh left the church regularly to go into town on errands.

Literally would have taken 1 or 2 deputies to approach him while he was in a convenience store and arrest him, even though the charges were all bs. The entire thing was a gigantic show of force.

You don't assault a gigantic building you know almost nothing abotu with like 60 people inside to arrest one man you could have arrested any day of the week as he was alone away from the others.

The gov fucked up bad and ended up murdering everyone inside (deliberately).

The propaganda was out in full force and most people took the bait and just figured they were a bunch of religious nutjobs.

However the militia movement blew up because of it. It showed a lot of smart people that the government will literally kill you in the 20/21st century, not in some far off gook dictatorship but here and locally. That isn't freedom.

youtube.com/watch?v=D1JWkV8qftc

The last will and testament, a 2 hour video of the Waco people before they were murdered by Clinton, is available online. It proves that they were all there voluntarily, doing no harm.

As Bill Clinton said at the time, it literally saved his government.
Then the next time he needed it saved, the OKC bombing happened.

They might been weirdos but there was no proof that they did anything illegal.
Also feds shoot first.

The crazies at the compound. If police come to your door to arrest you, you go get arrested. Guess what? If you're in the right and have not done anything wrong, our justice system vindicates you. That's how you fight unwarranted prosecution: by standing up to it in a court of law. Not by being a fucking psycho and getting into a gunfight with cops.

The (((government))) is always wrong.

...

Probably not except it cause jews but
nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all

The ATF knowingly submitted a fraudulent affidavit for the warrant that justified the raid.

Ok. So go to court and prove it. Be vindicated. Then sue the ATF.

Don't start a gunfight like a fucking retarded psycho. Because guess what? You'll lose.

>believing the branch dividians started it when ALL the tapes of the first shots fired went mysteriously missing

>The work of the Innocence Project has led to the freeing of 351 wrongfully convicted people based on DNA, including 20 who spent time on death row, and the finding of 150 real perpetrators.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project

>If you're in the right and have not done anything wrong, our justice system vindicates you.
>shit sheeple Sup Forumstards actually believe, lol

If a police officer attempts to arrest you and you run away to go get your guns? You just started a gun fight. It doesn't matter which one of you shoots first.

>>shit sheeple Sup Forumstards actually believe, lol
The rule of law? Yes, I do. So will you, once you stop be an edgy fourteen year-old.

Shh.. How much coke do I need to give you to delete the thread?

It's not clear which side shot first, but it is clear the ATF had no interest in resolving the matter peacefully. They refused to talk with Koresh by telephone, made no attempt to contact him outside the compound, and went forward with the raid after finding out the Davidians knew they were coming.

yeah I'm sure the ATF knew that both unarmed people behind the front door where running to get guns to shoot it out with the feds, so they opened fire preemptively, then shot all their dogs just in case

What's your point? Police officers went to the compound to serve a warrant and raid it. Yep.
>lol therefore illegitimate government grab weapons and be ready for war with cops
No, therefore get raided and arrested, and go to court.

Imagine being that much of retard that even after its been proven that the US government meddles in affairs that it shouldn't, the funding of the taliban, the creation of AQ, the lies behind the invasion of Iraq, funding Islamic terrorists in Syria and North Africa.

And you still have a hard time believing they provoked Koresh into using what were his constitutional rights. They could have arrested him without any bloodshed, he frequently was on his own. They wanted a gunbattle and to prove a point.

Anons figured out during the Pizzagate investigation that Koresh was probably CIA, and the compound was probably a CIA site used for trafficking and MKULTRA. The fire was to clean up loose ends.

>And you still have a hard time believing they provoked Koresh into using what were his constitutional rights.
The constitution of the USA does not give you guarantee any right to resist arrest and fight copes.

Try again.

The ATF knew the Davidians were heavily armed and awaiting Armageddon. Why didn't they call Koresh and try to get his cooperation?

wow this video is like straight put of a horror movie

I don't know or care. That's utterly irrelevant. The police chose to pursue a raid. Ok: get raided, and go fight it in court.

>just let your own government violate you and then fight for your freedom in court
bootlicker

>serve warrant
>violate you
You have confused some words.

>The rule of law?

No, that the police are always the good guys and the good guys always win.
That's some reactionary bullshit right there.

There was no reason for a raid in the first place. The way the officers involved conducted themselves suggests their goal was to kill the Davidians, not to serve a warrant.

>No, therefore get raided and arrested, and go to court
It's obvious today that was never a preferred outcome from LEO or .gov that oversaw them. There were ample chances to pick up Koresh outside of that compound and decisions were made to simply forego that. When you're facing individuals who are simply there to murder you in the case, what do you exactly suppose they do? Get riddled fulll of bullets from people looking for a fight and hope someone has your side after the mudslinging?

Please.

The rule of law does not assume that the police are good guys. It assumes that police have a job to do in the serving of warrants. And that prosecuters, judges and defense lawyers have a job to do in arguing or moderating discussions about criminal charges. And that we have that argument in a court because no one wants to live in a world where, instead of having a discussion, we have gun fights when we disagree about things.

Except the crazies who would rather have the gunfight. And then they get shot and die.

>When you're facing individuals who are simply there to murder you in the case, what do you exactly suppose they do?
No one was there to murder them. They were perfectly ready for the possibility of a gun-fight, if the crazies decided not to comply with the warrant. The crazies decided not to comply with the warrant, so got a gun fight, and lost.

>There was no reason for a raid in the first place.
Yes there was: it's called a warrant.

>unironically defending the waco feds

yeah sure thing as long as we all just make sure not to saw six inches off our buddys shotgun our families and dogs should be all be okay

If you do, and the police come to talk to you about it? Protip: go to the door instead of running for your gun.

Your families and dogs will be just fine.

>Ok: get raided
If someone invades your property, it's your duty to kill them.

The government, or nobody.

None of the accusations stuck, Koresh and others left constantly for supplies and were active on the gun show circuit. The ATF was spending a million dollars per week to surveil and siege these people with no evidence. People were free to leave, and not even the FBI contests this, all they say is that they were required to undergo an "Exit Interview", which is tantamount to just Koresh asking "are you sure?"
Koresh charged next to nothing for rent, bought everything in bulk and paid in cash. The Davidian's lived a simple life and simply did not need the income. It was so unfathomable that a people could live so cheaply that the government thought that they HAD to be dealing meth or illegal arms. This is the official story.
What I believe is that after the Cold War ended in 1992, the government set its sights inward to squash other communist threats. If enough people got together and willingly pooled resources and lived cheaply, the US labor and tax base would evaporate in a month. People can't be made aware that this is an option; this is why Mount Carmel burned and all those children died.

>It assumes that police have a job to do in the serving of warrants. And that prosecuters, judges and defense lawyers have a job to do in arguing or moderating discussions about criminal charges

Fine.

But don't forget you said this bullshit:
>If you're in the right and have not done anything wrong, our justice system vindicates you.

If you turn a conversation into a gunfight and get shot? It's your duty not to whine about it.

>Protip: go to the door instead of running for your gun.
>we are here with a warrant and agents in full tactical gear
>uh oh they could be getting a gun behind that door, time to use lethal force

youtube.com/watch?v=-wgt1OBjAPA

ATF shot first and shot their own on accident.

>ITT: Statist nigger being a statist nigger
If I ever see your glow in the dark was on the streets I'm running you over, CIA nigger.

>But don't forget you said this bullshit:
The overwhelmingly vast majority of the time it does.

Yes: we don't always get it right. So you can submit to a system of law that turns an armed conflict into a conversation that results in bad guys being behind bars 99.999% of the time and innocent people joining them .001% of the time, or we can all pull out guns and shoot each other until everyone is dead except the people that the winners like. And then they can build a new society, and have enough kids that their kids start disagreeing, and eventual establish a peaceful method of resolving those disagreements because no one wants disagreements to result in murder any more.

If you pull a gun on a cop, the cop is supposed to shoot you. Preferably first.

No, a warrant does not inherently justify a raid, and again, the affidavit was fraudulent anyway. The Davidians had a significant gunsmithing operation and Koresh had a history of cooperation with local law enforcement; simply knocking on the front door would have been sufficient.

>All three of them were Bill Clintons Body guards during the presidential election
>all three of them died

he seems so happy in that first pic

>tfw you couldn't protect that smile

one man is never wrong if he is against the state.
no matter how you look at it.

>running for your gun

its clear you dont understand the situation

99.999%

Revise your number. Plea deals, legal bullshit, weasel words, confessions under duress, far more evil people avoid jail and far more innocent people face penalty than your ass-stat indicates.

There was no conversation and the agent in charge had even refused Koresh's attempt to contact him.

>bad guys being behind bars 99.999% of the time and innocent people joining them .001% of the time

Total out-of-your-ass bullshit.
Go read the wikipedia page I quoted earlier and find out the real truth about innocents behind bars.
>>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project

>No, a warrant does not inherently justify a raid,
Yes it does. "Raid" means "a sudden invasion by officers." It has no legal definition. It is more-properly known as "serving a warrant."

>the affidavit was fraudulent anyway.
Which would come out in a court case.

> simply knocking on the front door would have been sufficient.
Maybe it would have been. Maybe not. Neither one of us has a time machine, so stop making shit up.

If a warrant is obtained under false pretenses how lawful is it really?

They were there to serve a knowingly and willfully fraudlant warrant. The Davidians are under no obligation to comply with an illegal order.

At this point, the police are illegal trespassers in a castle doctrine state and they are wholly justified in shooting each and every last one of them.

>boomerposting this hard

people like you are why Oklahoma City happened

Timothy McVeigh did nothing wrong.

The warrant is 100% lawful, under those circumstances. A warrant is an order from a court. A warrant cannot be unlawful, by definition.

lmao, 90% of americans convicted in your """""""justice""""""" system don't even get a trial by jury because the judge offers you deals like 1 year if you plead guilty or fucking 50 years if you lose by jury, so any lawyer will tell you just plead guilty even if there's no way in fuck you did it just in case on the off chance you fail at a jury trial and lose the rest of your life

>The Davidians are under no obligation to comply with an illegal order.
Incorrect. A fraudulently obtained warrant is not an illegal order. It is a legal order. Go fight it in a court, expose the fraud that resulted in it, and the charges against you will be dismissed.

Go pull a gun on the people serving it, and you will be shot and killed.

just gtfo spook we all know you're here to stir the pot and keep us from discussing this.

everyone itt just stop replying to this guy. he's here to stir the pot, not to discuss anything.

Judges don't offer deals.

>Go pull a gun on the people serving it
you keep saying this like it actually happened

>It is more-properly known as "serving a warrant."
A warrant can be served peacefully.

The fraudulent affidavit is evidence that the ATF intended to kill the Davidians.

>Maybe it would have been.
That's reason enough they should have tried.

>Which would come out in a court case.
Neither one of us has a time machine, so stop making shit up.

good goy

I am discussing things with you. I am responding reasonably and rationally to erroneous information and mindless arguments about feelings.

just stop replying to him he's a fucking fed

Koresh was a certified wacko but in the end it was actually Hillary Clinton who got them all killed

stop replying to him

go to bed you fucking glow in the dark cia nigger. think about sleep and dreams and shit.

>The fraudulent affidavit is evidence that the ATF intended to kill the Davidians.
No, it isn't. Evidence is evidence. What you're doing is wild speculation.

the ruby ridge cops were hiding out all through the woods and the following is roughly what went down

>dog comes across agent staked out in the woods and barks at him
>they shoot and kill the dog
>14 year old boy freaks out about the cops shooting his dog, then they kill him
>conspiracy theorist lolertarian dad sees his dead son on his own property and runs for his gun
>federal agent sniper then shoots and kills his wife at a range of 200 yards while she was holding nothing but her baby

all this was over the guy sawing off some dudes shotgun for him who went on to become a federal informant. so the guy skips court for it and they send a whole team to massacre his family and fucking dogs. it was so bad that one of his friends who was there killed an agent and got off on grounds of self defense

im not too much of a muh rights person but sometimes shit like this is completely indefensible and prves these consipracy fags had a point all along. waco is one of these events as is the recent bundy ranch thing imo

>lol therefore illegitimate government grab weapons and be ready for war with cops
Pic related, bootlicker

It does give you the right to resist and fight against tyranny though. Which the US government was undoubtedly guilty of being tyrannical in this case.

Out of curiosity do you wear a wig and a red coat?

no harm in being a wacko.

i heard, from another Sup Forums poster, that the waco compound was a node on an underground railroad that was smuggling kids being trafficked away from their captors and out of the country, and that is why the government killed everyone there.

no idea if its true.

stop replying to feds.

Incorrect!

The constitution of the united states does not guarantee citizens the right to fight the government of the united states on the basis of claiming that it is tyrannical.

Try facts more, and impassioned hysteria less.

>lol people who disagree with me on the internet must be police officers!

>>federal agent sniper then shoots and kills his wife at a range of 200 yards while she was holding nothing but her baby
yep, and he did such a good job, he was a sniper at Waco too. also, fucking delta force was apparently there, but only officially as "observers"

>JUST PAY THE KING HIS TEA TAX
>JUST LICK THE BOOT
Would you let someone fuck your wife to avoid conflict?

Clintons covering up a rogue child trafficker before he could cause them problems.

>The constitution of the USA does not give you guarantee any right to resist arrest
Yes it does if it's unlawful you retard. That is literally what our fucking constitution is for, to ensure our rights from tyrannical governments that go out of their way to set up gunfights to circumvent more rights later on thanks to the bloodbath of the fight they intentionally provoked. And forged evidence.

kys

tyeah this, clinton had a stake in it
and the feds killed (by other feds) were former Clinton personnel youtu.be/8xRaJ5QA1kk?t=2m57s

This.
Honestly Waco and Ruby Ridge really shows just how corrupt the Government is when it comes to these things.
Almost all the evidence that proved without a doubt agent wrongdoing mysteriously disappeared.

this is an interesting take. got any details or a source?

A valid warrant is required for a search. They had no such warrant. These were illegal intruders.

You know this, but hold out hope that in the same situation the justice system will treat you fairly. My only question is, "Why?"

>Yes it does if it's unlawful you retard.
Incorrect on two counts:

One: a warrant is a court order. By definition it cannot be unlawful. It can be obtained fraudulently. It, itself, cannot be unlawful.

Two: the constitution does not guarantee you the right to resist arrest.

Go try to find a quote in the constitution to support the stupid things that you have said. We'll all wait.

because he works for it. he's replied to almost every poster and he's making deliberately inflammatory posts to keep us from discussing something still sensitive to him and his masters.

So whats the point in having the right to bear arms then? Show me where it says you do not have the right to protect yourself from a tyrannical government.

A warrant is valid, by definition. Even a warrant obtained by lying to a judge is a valid warrant. The charges will be thrown out if it comes to light that the warrant was obtained fraudulently. But the warrant, itself, is valid.

look at this, instead of sharing information about waco and other federal fuckups we're arguing the law and semantics with some guy who's not backing up any of his assertions beyond "if the government says so its true".

he's making shitty simple-minded ontological arguments and it's stifling discussion. filter his ID and move on with the thread.

atf is not local police.
if koresh went peacefully they would've breitbarted him.

you're a fucking idiot for not understanding how shit really works.

you're a fucking fool for trusting the federal (not local) judicial system.

you're a fucking dumbass for thinking anybody is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the people.
(eyes of the law is irrelevant as people must enforce the incantations on the magic scrolls.)

maybe one day you'll grow up, but none of those people there deserved to die that day except for the corrupt government workers that went there strictly for the taste of blood.

you are now dismissed.

This. Don't let the feds derail.

>Fraudulent warrant is crafted
>You know you didn't commit the crime
>They send a literal army to get you over a fraudulent warrent. Body armor, heavy guns, a fucking tank
>Just walk out and talk
Yeah kys he was a dead man walking retard. If you were in his position and you got fucked by fake evidence with an army you know you aren't getting out of there alive or any justice in the courts.

>lol prove a negative!
The right you're making up doesn't exist. There is no specific quote proving that it doesn't exist, any more than there is a quote proving that pink unicorns do not live on Mars.

Incorrect. I am providing you information on Waco. You want to share infographs and conspiracy-theories. I, on the other hand, am sharing with you the law.

But that's not relevant to your idiotic, mindless agenda, so you can't possibly conceive that it's worth talking about.

HE IS A FUCKING FED

FILTER HIS ID AND START DISCUSSING WACO

WHY IS SOMEONE SO INTENT ON DERAILING DISCUSSION?

WHAT MOTIVE COULD THEY HAVE?

>atf is not local police.
Correct. What is your point? Federal law enforcement agents are law enforcement agents.

>if koresh went peacefully they would've breitbarted him.
You are making a baseless speculation. They got, and served, a warrant. That is a legal document compelling cooperation. It is exactly the way that our laws require law enforcement agents to act, in order to compel our cooperation.

>talking about the law and facts derails a converrsation because I wanted to talk about conspiracy theories!
The reason you are not taken seriously by anyone is because you are not a serious person. You want to sit up late at night and trade conspiracy theories. Then invent conspiracy theories to explain why no one should talk about anything but your conspiracy theories.

>The constitution of the united states does not guarantee citizens the right to fight the government

dude youre retarded

prove you're one of us by posting a brainlet meme. you should have at least one saved or know where to get one within a few minutes.

filter his id and move on with the thread he's a shill.

what those people were doing in Waco was totally unamerican. A dozen families sharing resources with one another, is unfathomable.

Imagine if the block you lived on all shared one cable bill, one internet account, one water bill. Sharing one toolbox, sharing cars, sharing big screen televisions, and electronics.

worst of all, they were teaching their own children, rather than indoctrinating them into consumerism like everyone else.

In this country, there's only room for consumers, and producers. Democrats, and republicans... there is no "sharing party"
you gotta nip that in the bud, or pretty soon everyone will be sharing things, and then there won't be enough taxes being paid so politicians can get 4 or 5 heart transplants, livers, and kidneys too.
ten families with one washing machine, i don't even

Forging evidence for a warrant is unlawful, a fucking crime and voids the warrant, nigger.
>the constitution does not guarantee you the right to resist arrest.
Nice try schlomo, but conflating your usual arrest with the events around WaCo as 'just another arrest' is asinine.

It does not. Go read it, look for a quote, and come back to us. We'll wait.

I am not one of you. I fucking hate the bad name Sup Forums gives Sup Forums. But it's 5am and there's not a lot going on, on the boards that don't suck ass.

Yes it is.

The warrant that is thus fraudulently obtained, however, is not unlawful.

I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble distinguishing between those two things.

wow, you live on america's east coast, what a shock.

quantico? langley?