Ive heard some people argue this.
>On the secret recording of Hitler with Mannerheim, Hitler says things that point in this direction. When the Wehrmacht rumbled through Russian territory Hitler says they stumbled across massive factories with 30.000 people in each for building tanks.
What other evidence is there for Stalins plan to attack Germany were it not for Hitlers pre-emptive strike?
What evidence is there of Staling planning to attack Germany before Barbarossa?
Jonathan Howard
Cameron Hall
He invaded the Baltics, Finland and Romania. Listen to Hitler lay it all out in his own words.
Kayden Cook
I think Hitler gave a speech detailing some of the the intel he had that led him to that conclusion. Germany was also starved of resources and fuel and would surely lose against a global British Empire.That's another reason why going east was such an attractive option.
John Russell
There are lots of german war memoires that say they ran into an invasion ready red army
Wyatt Fisher
Dude theres any evidence cause the whole story is a bullshit revisionist nonsense. I recommend you search actual facts, like the constant attempts of the British to convince the Soviets to attack Germany cause Hitler is planning an attack. Stalin, being the usual paranoid, dismissed the British information. He believed they were trying to manipulate Soviets into a war that wasnt their business(You cant really blame him, the eternal Anglo meme is older than internet). All shit you ll probably read here are nazi propaganda sources(at best) or hillbillies that think that if you believe something really hard, you ll make it true
Anthony Gonzalez
strange how its really seems sometimes Hitler told the truth about literally everything
is this intel publicly available?
any examples of such memoirs, id like to read them?
Ayden Harris
that is some seriously interesting shit
Jacob Perry
okay so how do you explain the massive armament industry of Russia in 1939 even though the country was dirt poor otherwise. How do you explain to forward positions of its endless divisions with no plans for a defensive war? Hell, they did not even have maps of their own lands, only maps of Germany when Barbarossa surprised them.
Hudson Hill
Try Kurt Meyers book
It should be translated
Thomas Davis
...
Luke Powell
Soviet Militarization program was during 1926-1933
under Tukhachevsky(executed) and its the main reason why Soviet army was so behind technologically compared to the Germans.
The program was implemented as a deterrent against another invasion from the West capitalist countries.
The fact that Soviets didnt have defensive possitions can be easily explained.The borders had changed in 1939 with the annexation of Poland. The map of Germany story sounds, and probably is, retarded revisionist propaganda, + military maps are about a really small territory, theres no such thing as a military map of Germany, it just doesnt make sense, its only natural to have maps of the German territory they have borders with
Oliver Williams
yeah no sale.
>''Colonel Dr. Pavel N. Bobylev[32] was one of the military historians from the Soviet (later Russian) Ministry of Defense who in 1993 published the materials of the January 1941 games-on-maps. More than 60 top Soviet officers for about ten days in January rehearsed the possible scenarios of the beginning of the war with Germany and its allies. These materials show that no battles were played out on the Soviet soil. The action started only when the Soviets ("Easterners") attacked westward from their border, and in the second game("South variant")- even from the positions deep inside the enemy's land.''
Who said anything about maps of the whole of Germany. They were maps of smaller area's. The maps are always of the areas you intend to do potential combat in.
Jaxson Carter
Also, why would Hitler tell Mannerheim in a meeting he thinks is secret and not being recorded that the strike was pre-emptive and they had no choice but to do so, considering Finland was already at war with Stalin before the German invasion. Woulnt Hitler had than rather said something like: ''We were morally bound to protect you and now we help you fight this mortal enemy'' But instead Hitler tells the Fins: this current fight, it was them or us (Germany). Again, not for propoganda since it was supposed to be kept secret
Austin Myers
Google 'Icebreaker' by Suvorov
Evan Gutierrez
Dude we have maps of Turkey and 300 different scenarios of attacking Turkish territory.War scenario's are totally different from planning an invasion. Stalin believed that theres gonna come a time of clash between West and Soviet Union, thats no secret, he just didnt believe thats the time. What im telling you is that during 1941 Soviet Union had NO plans of attacking Germany, and thats a fact, like it or not
Blake Scott
Dude Hitler told the same bullshit for Poland, Greece,Belgium etc. Attackers always want an excuse throughout the history of war
William Rivera
>''It is a documented fact that a detailed plan for a pre-emptive strike by the Red Army against the German forces concentrating in Poland was prepared in May 1941 by Zhukov and Timoshenko.
The plan went into great detail about the forces required for the pre-emptive strike and their deployment. It recommended that the strike force be assembled under the cover of summer manoeuvres.
The basic strategy of the plan replicates earlier plans prepared in 1940 and early 1940, namely a massive thrust from the Lwow salient across the south of Poland as far as Silesia and the Sudetenland, then wheeling north to reach the Baltic and cut off the bulk of the German army in Poland.
A subsidiary thrust would be launched into northern Romania to cut Germany off from its main source of oil.
The earlier plans were framed as counter-offensives, assuming an intial German offensive that would be immediately stopped at the frontier. Curiously, those plans did not propose any strategy for halting the German offensive; they simply stated that that offensive would be stopped, and then went on to detail the strategy for the counter-offensive. That curiosity suggests that the plans may actually have been for a first strike after a claimed but fictitious enemy attack, as for example happened in the case of the Soviet invasion of Finland.
However, the May 1941 Plan was in no way framed as a counter-offensive to a German first strike, but explicitly recommended a first strike by the Red Army, to catch the German forces while in a state of deployment rather than in a defensive position. In other words, Timoshenko and Zhukov were proposing to do to the Wehrmacht what the Wehrmacht in historical reality did to the Red Army.
The only controversy is whether Stalin ordered the pre-emptive strike plan to be implemented. After the war Zhukov claimed that Stalin rejected the plan, but that is an attempt at self-exculpation and cannot be trusted.''
Thomas Jackson
"Icebreaker; Who Started the Second World War"
mega.nz
Luke King
Again the difference between a Scenario and actual planning of an invasion.
Look you can believe what you want, but just know that the propaganda comes from Westerncucks that just tried to downplay Soviet role in WW2 and practically equate them with Nazis. This started during cold war but continued and is still going now. Why? To indoctrinate east europeans into the western dogma. I never demonised Nazis and i ll never demonise Soviets. I have no dog in this one, i just like the truth
Isaac Fisher
shillerino
i think the accepted idea was that the soviets were preparing for war but they realised they were not read, then germany invaded, soviet losses up till barbarissa was finished and fall blau initilaized shiwed hiw unorepared they were for military operations against a qualified enemy
Ayden Wright
Without a doubt, all historians agree that eventually Stalin planned to come West; in the respect, you could definitely say Hitler was right no matter what. Where the debate occurs, however, is when this exactly was expected to occur. Most estimates I've seen speculate on Spring of 1942, as by then the Red Army reforms would've been completed. That the Wehrmacht struck in 1941 was a stroke of luck and cunning, as it hit the Soviets when they were in the middle of recovering from the purges, adopting new equipment, and increasing its force size (With all that entails to force cohesion and Officer/NCO cadre quality).
Despite all of this, while most of the Icebreaker hypothesis has been rejected, there is some undeniable elements. By late 1940, Stalin had begun to withhold resource shipments he had agreed to previously during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and was pressuring Hitler for bases in Bulgaria, defacto making it a Soviet puppet; this would also imperil Romania and it's oil supplies, as Soviet troops would be to the North and South of the nation now. In early 1941, Stalin did, by most historians agreement, request a study into the feasibility of a preemptive offensive and ordered Zhukov to look into it; preserved archival data shows Zhukov and other Soviet officers did make plans an feasibility checks upon it. Where this breaks from the Icebreaker hypothesis is that Historians state Zhukov talked Stalin out of it when it became clear the Red Army was in no shape to do such.
On the whole, I find the German offensive justified via the 1940 actions alone, regardless of the actual Soviet motives prior to the invasion. Whether or not there were Soviet plans for 1941 is irrelevant in the face of knowing for sure such did exist for 1942.