>“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
>This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.
>proceed to bow down and pray to statues of Mary
explain Catholics
veneration =/= praying to as an idol.
But no matter how many time we tell protestants this, they never listen.
what is the difference between "venerating" and "praying to"
>oh mary pls protect me and be my mother
>ITS NOT PRAYING >:^^^(
Would it be ok to give a statue of Baal the same veneration as a statue of Mary?
Do you believe that nobody is saved that can intercede for you, being in a better position with God and all that ?
Always knew the prottie salvation doctrine was fucky.
>be catholic
>bow before statue of Elrond
>"Dear St Anthony pls help me find my car keys"
>btw it's not prayer :DDD
>t. gatolig
When you Catholics pray to Mary you are praying to a corpse. So not only are you being idolatrous but you are also committing necromancy (talking to the dead). I tell you the truth because I love you.
Would it be okay to suck a dick like you suck a lollipop ?
There is literally nothing wrong with worshipping Mary and Satan. Catholicism is the final redpill.
>prayer to the dead is bad mmkay
I thought you guys followed the bible ?
Oh wait you pulled out the books that specifically included prayers to the dead.
>sola scriptura unless I don't like it
More like sola mea scriptura
Catholics believe that Mary and all the saints are alive in God even after their earthly lives have passed, being alive in the communion of saints (just like it is professed in the apostles creed)
We also believe that the saints are aware of what is going on down on earth, and they surround the faithful as a cloud of witnesses (just as it says in the Bible)
We also believe that the saints continue to pray for the intentions of the world after they die (as it is revealed in Revelations)
We also believe the God delights in intercessory prayer (as it says in the Bible) and that the prayers of the righteous are efficious (again, as it says in the Bible)
So asking for the intercession of Mary and the saints is perfectly valid in both Catholicism AND Protestantism, since Protestants accept all the above.
How is that different from praying to and idolizing then again
If you said "Ba'al, please pray for my intentions", then it wouldn't be idolotry because by asking for the prayers of Ba'al, not his own intervention, you are not violating the law against paganism.
You are acknowledging that Ba'al has no divine powers of his own and can only pray to the Creator.
Monastic life dies without Mary
You're asking someone to pray God for you, you're not asking them to act in God's stead.
That's actually pretty fucking major.
Protties are just ultra-autistic.
From the Catechism of John Paul II:
>2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68
>2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69
>2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.
>2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
>Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
We can have a statue to spruce up the place and not accidentally start worshiping it. I know it's hard being a brainlet and all.
that seems like such a cop out answer
>i'm not praying for Elrond (St Anthony) to help me find my car keys, I'm praying for him to pray for me to find my car keys
mental gymnastics
By forbidding idolatry, God is specifically speaking out against paganism. Paganism is attributing properties of the Creator to creatures.
A pagan, by bowing to an idol, earnestly believes that the statue of wood or gold itself has power. That it has the power to save, or act as a conduit for the power of a lesser pagan god. Lesser in the sense that it is not the true Creature, above all laws of nature.
*not the true Creator
You guys pray to literal icons, including ones depicting the virgin mary.
FUCKING RARE AS FUCK
I KILL MYSELF NOW
VIVA MEXICO PUTOS A LA VERGA
>muh mental gymnastics
Of course, differentiating between two different concepts necessitates the ability to think a little.
You're like a mental blob of lard. Anything can be considered gymnastics at that point.
>A pagan, by bowing to an idol, earnestly believes that the statue of wood or gold itself has power.
how can you know that that is true? pagan faiths had the same sort of view that Catholics do, that statues represented their gods and contained some sacred energy or that the god "lived" there. Catholics literally believe that god "lives" in the Church building and they believe that getting your priest to "bless" your Rosary puts holy sacramental energy into it
One problem, the bible isnt true.
don't you have a statue of elrond to be praying to right now (and by praying to i mean praying for him to pray for your intentions)
>Mary
>corpse
imagine being this much of a theolet
thicc
>Catholics literally believe that god "lives" in the Church building
No.
It's the Holy Sacrament.
Do protestants even believe in God ?
more mental gymnastics, you deserve a gold medal
i'm not a christian btw
She is dead. All humans die, and then arise for the judgment when Jesus returns. This is scriptural.
no no, she's the magical queen of heaven because they say so. now light a candle and bow to the statue
It's alright I know you dont do prayers, you're already saved after all.
>proceed to bow down and pray to statues of Mary
Orthodox do this too. They have even more of an obsession with Mary.
>All of these prots being dumb
Has anything been better since the reformation?
I mean, you guys literally killed half the continent for your autistic "proto-marxist" revolutions
I mean, at least we Catholics can respect the orthodox, but the prots are just dirty dogs
>mexican PAGAN talking shit about any other christians
go bow down to Santa Muerte or whatever
That is not what Catholics believe.
Sacramentals don't confer grace, but they merely prepare the faithful to recieve grace.
Pagans have things like idols and wands and poppets which they believe channel natural power. Power that should only be attributed to God. Catholics believe all divine power comes from God.
>haha pagans have their silly magic wands
>*waves wand dipped in holy water*
>*fumbles magic beads*
>*bows to statue*
don't bother casting your pearls OP
youtube.com
>American MORMON talking shit about Mexicans
The satanic Narcos are the only ones who bow to the Santa Muerte
The common people is horrified and disgusted with these practices
>“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
>thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.
>strange gods before Me.
>gods before Me.
>BEFORE
That why after having found the christian god I am kinda on the lookout for others.
Dulia and latria faggot, learn greek you kike. Nothing worse than a fake ass Western convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. Such obnoxious little cunts they become.
Honestly I want to become a muslim but I'm just too convinced that the resurrection happened. I'd honestly prefer Islam though.
by that logic there's no reason you couldn't do Dulia for Thor and Odin while still doing Latria for God
Lol get out of here with your talmudic lawgic. Tell me are you a LARPer or are you actually Greek (non-white)?
This is a shit-tier Protestard argument that only a complete moron can possibly think is a "gotcha". Not even worth a serious response because you could find out about this so easily on your own if you were actually interested in knowledge. But you're not. You're an intellectual untermensch, a sloth, an idiot, a clown.
> Catholic
Yuk, but if it's work them "K..."
i am a white midwesterner, and no i am not an orthodox convert (because i am not a slav nor a greek). i will say this, they do give a mean Sunday service
How is the act of prayer itself not implicitly an expression of worship?
One word for you: intercession.
I don't pray to Mary as a God but as a holy soul in heaven who may intercede before the Lord on my behalf.
You might not be able to tell the difference between that and worship but that's your problem and not mine.
>I don't pray to Thor as God, I pray to him as a holy Angel of the Lord who may intercede on my behalf
what's the difference
Mary is the mother of our Lord who is, according to my faith, a holy soul in heaven.
Thor is a pagan god who is fictional and not a holy soul in heaven.
Does that explanation suffice?
I don't buy into the idea of
>i-i-it's just intercession!
when it requires prayer in the first place, which can easily be contrued as a from of latria
Catholics pray to Saint Michael who is also fictional and functionally is no different from Thor (mighty flying warrior deity who protects people from evil)
Luke 11:27-28
>And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
>But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
All else aside:
Michael is subordinate to God and does nothing of his own power.
Thor is a cross dressing alcoholic who chooses to do the things he does of his own free will.
then why do catholics pray to him if he has no free will?
>he has no free will
I don't know, why would you ask someone to speak to their boss on your behalf?
You don't need to buy any idea at all. I came here to explain the Catholic answers to these questions, not to convert you or convince you of their veracity.
That's your opinion. Saint Michael isn't fictional.
I fail to see the relevance of that passage. Please explain exactly what you mean by quoting it and then I can respond properly.
if Michael has no free will then praying to him makes no sense; he's not going to intercede for you if he's just an automaton
We ask Mary to pray for us you fucking Pagan
Alright, I was trying to avoid the free will discussion because it's a lot more typing than I wanted to do, but here goes:
Angels are possessed of free will, but they have chosen to fully obey God with that free will at the moment of their creation. The exact opposite is true of demons, who chose to disobey as their first act of free will.
Using Michael as an example: he is a member of the dominion of Archangels, which is actually the WEAKEST of the orders of angels. However, since he understands his place in the order of things, and understands that he does nothing of his own power, only through the power of God, he is capable of casting down Satan, who was of a higher dominion than him, and thus was theoretically more powerful.
Does this make sense? I'm not a Catholic myself but you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of their beliefs.
no, you don't ask her like you would walk up to someone and plainly ask them to do something for you
you pray to her, to pray on your behalf, but you pray to her nonetheless
prayer is an act of worship
ok, time to come clean
i was larping in this thread. i was trying to get good arguments out of Catholics because my dad is coming to mass with me this weekend and I know he's going to freak out at prayers to Mary and Michael (which our parish always do after mass). I was larping ITT trying to get arguments that would work with him.
I am not Catholic but I'm dipping my toes in and considering converting in the future.
Fair enough. Just remind him of the etymology of the word "pray." Protestants have conflated the words "pray" and "worship" and their theology is poorer because of it.
>mary is in heaven with God his son
>you can't pray to her to intercede on your behalf
>proddies think Jesus won't listen to his mother
are prodshits even christian?
We already have the perfect intercessor intervening on our behalf; Jesus Christ.
Cause you know, when you finish a prayer you say "in Jesus's name, amen."
Jesus is the only one who can intervene on our behalf, not Mary or any other Saint... Though they are all wonderful people who God used they aren't our mediators. Only Jesus is.
>Cause you know, when you finish a prayer you say "in Jesus's name, amen."
But that's not how I finish my prayers.
It is biblical and proper to pray to Mary. Follow these premises:
1) We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, not a great cloud of corpses.
Hebrews 12:2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us
2) The prayers of the faithful are particularly strong.
James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous person has great power"
3) Mary was a righteous person.
Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
Mary said that "all generations would call her blessed."
This prophecy is fulfilled in the Catholic Church, in which millions upon millions of people pray every night: "Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou among women. Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus." In Protestantism, this prophecy is left unfulfilled.
Ask any Catholics if they view Mary, Joseph, St. Jerome, Lucy, Joan or any other saints as "God" and they'll tell you they are not. So tired of explaining to protestants about this intercession thing, it's like talking to a leftist low iq.
Why not? The Bible clearly states that Christ is continually intervening on our behalf.
RARE FLAGGGGGGGGGG DEUS VULT AVE MARIA!!!!!!!!
So forgive debtors or trespassers?
Because I begin and end all of my prayers with the sign of the cross and "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Much more meaningful and inclusive of the entire godhead.
Daily reminder that proddies are not white.
>rejects everything European such as philosophy, art, culture, ancestor veneration and mysticism
Do proddies deserve to live? Honestly asking.
>>proddies think Jesus won't listen to his mother
When the wedding went out of wine, Mary told Jesus that there is no wine. She didn't just merely ask, rather told directly, because she knows that Jesus is God and He will listen to her. She is the "woman of Genesis". Her intercession is the most powerful.
...
>Do proddies deserve to live? Honestly asking.
Funny throughout history it's always timing when muslims attack Europe, protestants also engaged war against Catholics. It's like a (((coincidence))) that they always fight Catholics the moment muslims invade.
Since we're on the topic of christfaggotry, why do you guys worship Jesus again? Isn't he just the messenger and literally said his daddy was god? Why aren't you worshipping his dad?
...
Genesis 3:15 says there will be enmity between the serpent (Satan) and the woman. In Revelation 12, it says the great dragon pursued the woman who gives birth to Christ.
Satan hates Mary.
That is why all false religions and heretical sects reject any sort of Marian devotion. It is a common theme in them all.
The Quran condemns Marian devotion. Protestantism condemns Marian devotion.
Behold, Protestants, your brother:
youtube.com
There is nothing wrong with Christians sharing in some pagan practices. Paganism is not evil so there is no reason to avoid it.
REDPILL ME ON GNOSTICISM!
Mary is not a god.
Mary is alive.
Mary stands beside God as the queen in heaven.
A living, breathing Mary listens to your words, and delivers them to God.
Why? Well, because some Catholics don't see themselves worthy of speaking to God directly, but protestants are prideful and like to see God more as their beer pal, who picks up his guitar and delivers some mild songs to children.
Saints are not gods.
Saints too are in heaven and this is made manifest by their posthumous miracles.
But of course, Protestants renounce the power of God because they renounce His agents and therefore fester atheism. The Protestant god is a weak god.
Monotheism is for fucking kikes. Catholicism was used as a tool to convert pagan Europeans by presenting them with a religion that didn't feel completely alien to the European mind.
Christianity is a blantant symptom of the Kali Yuga, by the way.
>Be protestant
>Distribute violent 3rd worlders around the western world
>Push for abortion/immigration
>Don't give a fuck about other Christians (unlike Catholics who launched the crusades)
Protestants are the original cucks
>Mary is not a god.
>Mary listens to all the prayers instantly all over the world. like NSA micro-possessor
>Catholics don't see themselves worthy of speaking to God directly
Adam and Eve speak to god directly
everyone in the bible speaks to god directly
>Saints are not gods.
Saints are pretext for non-saints
be saints and lets us be non-saints
saints :paye us and its ok
and they are not saints at the first place
pedophilia is just the seen part of the iceberg
there can't be a saint, we are all sinners. our origine(adam) is a proof
>"venerating" and "praying to"
one implies the other
they pray to merry because they venerate her, she is god's interlocutor.
Coming from those who wanted to drop Revelation because it contradicts their made up heretical doctrines.
en.wikipedia.org
>Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.[5]
>"If Luther's negative view of these books were based only upon the fact that their canonicity was disputed in early times, 2 Peter might have been included among them, because this epistle was doubted more than any other in ancient times."[1] However, the prefaces that Luther affixed to these four books makes it evident "that his low view of them was more due to his theological reservations than with any historical investigation of the canon."[1]
Catholics are being retarded when praying to saints.
I'm one btw but I don't practice this shit since I'm one of the few that actually read the Bible.
the problem is that most are tought only the new testament in parts at church and nobody reads the entire Bible or stop to think it's teachings.
>Catholicism
>Monotheism
If you think praying to saints is stupid, you don't believe in the intermediate state, but believe in soul sleep, which is heresy and not biblical.