Question for Trumpists: How do you justify the "grad tax" in tonight's tax reform bill? (treating tuition waivers as incoming and taxing graduate students for that "income" of which they will never see a penny)?
Won't this hurt US science and tech competition by creating a powerful disincentive for STEM graduate studies?
Personally I am most of the way through my undergrad degree in Physics and was planning to pursue a PhD but to be frank the grad tax almost certainly places that out of reach for me, there is no way I can come up with thousands out of my ass to pay it, let alone the cost of grad school without an RA/TAship and waiver.
I am studying at one of the largest physics departments in the country and have found much agreement among others that the tax bill has them reconsidering their grad school plans.
So anecdotally as it may be, it seems like we're talking entire graduating classes in core science and engineering disciplines, which would have gone on to produce many PhD's, simply being cut off.
It's true that there's a glut of PhD's in many fields compared to the academic positions available, but American companies also need to be able to hire skilled scientists and engineers to be competitive. If US schools can't keep up, they'll try to hire immigrants instead. If Trump puts a stop to that too, they'll be out of options, and we will all fall behind economically as our big tech, aerospace, and energy companies can't keep up with other country's competition.
>having to pay an extra $30 in tax is going to stop you studying STEM
Jason James
Yes, I'm sure that the only reason American innovation no longer dominates everywhere is because science education is too accessible, we just need to train *less* engineers, this will solve all of our problems!
Kevin Evans
Trump doesnt want to ethnically cleanse america, unlike clinton. Thats how deep it goes
Oliver Miller
Best if the university system is denormalized and thrown to the wayside. It's a wasteful, inefficient system that rewards people with admission and financial aid based on how brown they are. Almost everything they teach you in college is utterly useless. Grad level is no different.
Christopher Murphy
I think that schools are going to have to change their graduate program formats in response. Hire PhD candidates as employees, which they basically are, rather than doing the former loophole bullshit where they rape the government of grant money.
Schools aren't going to allow their programs to dry up, and they'll be racing each other to alter things so that people still want to go through with the program. Things will adjust. Don't worry.
Logan Davis
>HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT >HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT
Daniel Hill
FAKE NEWS
Isaac Bell
You will have to pay more while people who pay for your shit will have to pay less. Seems to me like a fair deal.
Ian Wilson
What's your alternative for training scientists and engineers then?
Justin Murphy
>doesn't want to ethnically cleanse America >creates incentive for American companies to hire foreign engineers.
heckuva job trump
Isaiah Mitchell
U R FAGGOT
Jonathan Turner
It's a tax on students' tuition waivers. Taxpayers aren't paying for them to begin with, private endowments almost always are.
Caleb Perez
You want to know why we are falling behind? The real reason?
Wasting trillions on niggers trying to make them our equals. Loading our ivy league with frizzy haired negresses that upon graduation hardly have a 5th grade command of the English language. On top of this you have the pseudo degrees, primarily females getting these garbage degrees.
Tl;dr niggers and women are holding us back
Isaiah Perry
...
Jordan Flores
Heh, this happened in the USSR as that was collapsing, as well. Once the elites no longer care about the wellbeing of the country as a whole, the reason for being nice to scientists and engineers disappears.
Jason Parker
Universities minus communist insurgents
Liam Jenkins
Creating a disincentive for graduate studies will help with that how?
I mean you could make such an argument if this was specifically taxing women's studies degrees etc.
But it's not. It disproportionately impacts STEM, because science and engineering students are the ones most covered by waivers.
Jaxon Long
>heckuva job trump
Lucas Brown
Academia is a cancer that is stopping real science from being done. It actively screens out people that are likely to make breakthroughs and the literature is flooded with garbage produced by desperate rats on the tenure-track treadmill. It's a gigantic waste of money and scientists would be swinging from lampposts if the public understood what they were paying for.
Joshua White
Better than all out niggerdom, which was the alternative
Parker Bennett
What's your alternative?
Lucas Morris
...
Owen Lewis
Promoting actual academics versus boot licking sycophants
Dylan Reed
>What's your alternative?
Jayden Flores
>government squeezes extra income out of young students >expecting them to become less radicalized, not more >MFW
He's talking about problems in STEM fields. Graduate STEM fields. The things you mention are more a problem in certain undergraduate departments which are, ahem, easier to get through and attract more bullshitters. (not that STEM fields don't have their own bullshitting problem, but it tends to have more to do with the replicability crisis and the influence of money)
Jordan Ortiz
Prove you're smart enough to make objectively valuable and difficult contributions by becoming independently wealthy in the stock market and then hang around coffee shops full of similar people all day. That's how science was done for most of its history; by the independently wealthy out of pure curiousity, with the universities and formal institutions largely an afterthought.
>How do you justify the "grad tax" in tonight's tax reform bill?
Those most deserving of participation in academia are still favored by way of scholarships and fellowships. The rest who qualify but aren't smart enough are simply paying for the privilege. It's also nice because it really shrinks the amount of dumbasses with bad ideas polluting America's ivory tower.
Cameron Long
Left wing academia has created xy that dont even know whether they are xy or xx
John Jones
>MFW
Carson Torres
Right, how are you going to achieve that?
Particularly in the technical fields?
The grad tax doesn't accomplish anything towards such a goal. If anything it will mean more womens' studies degrees and less chemisty degrees!
Jonathan Evans
>Right, how are you going to achieve that?
Bentley Price
It's income. Grad students are employees, not slave labor.
If you take it, you don't have to take out loans. You'd end up paying more in interest than you'd end up paying in taxes.
Henry Lee
Current academia attempts to create marxists. Dont deny it. The goym know schlomo
Anthony Clark
>Reminder that STEM is disproportionately impacted.
Over in Comparative Literature, they're already paying for the privilege. It's the applied math and biology and computer science students getting RAships
Jose Martinez
>Universities classify tuition as part of grad students salaries > universities can do an accounting trick and just waive the tuition fee > universities can lower the cost to attend grad school > they could also just pay the grad students more > that face when universities are grad students own worse enemy
William Brooks
...
Oliver Davis
I am sure that $100 is really going to impact your education
Michael Thompson
And what?
Ethan Bell
Get a job. Make the billion dollar drug companies pay you your due instead of leeching your services through universities. In all honesty, the people taking those opportunities are probably worth way more than the tuition and stipend they receive and are getting taken advantage of with the "benefits" they think they are getting. Treating the universities as a source of cheap labor is all they are doing.
Kevin Ramirez
...
Colton Perez
Follow the money soyim
Jaxon Gutierrez
It'll discourage people from carelessly joining college and going into massive debt over worthless studies like African Studies or Women's studies. It will help put an end to endlessly pushing diversity affirmative action students into courses they can't complete, leaving them broke and dispirited. Less students mean schools have to lower prices drastically to attract people.
That is, if anything you said was even remotely as it sounds. Which is unlikely given that you have neglected to put sources down for the topics you address.
Tl;dr you want something, you pay for it.
Eli Kelly
You'll figure it out. I had to pay taxes on the money I paid for tuition, while working a full time job. I got 0 financial aid because my maintenance job put me over the threshold.
Colleges are compensating grad students via tuition waivers in order to not have to pay payroll taxes, which they have to pay for every other employee they have. While the grad students teach classes and do research in the capacity of an employee. They are systematically abusing a loophole. I worked my way though college greasing and operating construction equipment with no degree, paid taxes on that money as income, then paid it to the school in the form of tuition. Why should a grad student, with a masters degree, who is teaching classes and doing research get a tax credit on their tuition waiver which is used as compensation from the university? It's funny, all these brainwashed liberal idiots love new taxes until it hits them personally--enjoy the real world privileged ones
Landon Wood
hope the rich get richer and the poor to die off as the waist they are
Mason James
>Almost everything they teach you in college is utterly useless. Grad level is no different. found the redneck
Aaron Peterson
Its the same way corporations abuse internships
Jason Sanchez
>Tl;dr niggers and women are holding us back
Caleb Miller
>less retards borrowing money and giving it to these commie schools because the MSM is blowing a gasket over some minor costs is somehow bad
Hudson Sanders
Right, I'm arguing that the grad tax makes such problems worse, not better.
>If you take it, you don't have to take out loans. You'd end up paying more in interest than you'd end up paying in taxes. FINALLY. Now this at least is a somewhat decent argument. Because it's true that you would be potentially paying more on interest for loans, and it can be seen as income from that angle. If I do decide to continue with graduate studies it will involve considering both of those factors, and probably finding a balance that works best financially for me. So it can at least be seen as a reasonably *fair* tax from that perspective.
This is also a good point, it is likely we'll see changes to the structure of graduate education in response, because universities certainly want to compete.
Owen Green
The senate bill didn't include that, only the house one.
Mason Carter
When i got my first job after college, they called it wallpaper. I found out why
Jace Campbell
All this law does is that niggers still have their free rides, but whites have to pay thousands of dollars out of their ass
BASED TURTLEMAN BASED MCCAIN BASED TRUMP
Jayden Gutierrez
Grad students shouldnt really have to pay taxes because they make a small impact on the economy and shouldnt be penalized for learning.
Carter Barnes
> almost always Only when it’s convenient. If the number of students goes down as a result, unis will have to lower fees. Overall, society wins. Now pack your 0.02$ and go back to r*ddit.
Charles Martinez
And people like DaVinci used to be masters of multiple fields just 2 centuries before that. You are an imbecile if you think your argument has any grounds.the more breakthroughs that happen the greater the ceiling of knowledge is. Furthermore universities have existed for Milenium and most great innovators actually went to university.
ie. Tesla or Freud >expecting people who just study chemistry in their backyard without any standards will be better for research companies than people actually vetted from the university system kek
Aaron Mitchell
I wish I could find the video they did of Hillary being chucked in that van.
Why should a tuition waiver get a tax free pass? You don't get to barter big ticket items and not expect to pay taxes on it. If I give someone a $5k waiver on a roofing job and they give me a $5k waiver on a new 3 season addition, the IRS if they come knocking will consider that taxable.
Wouldn't it just make sense to have colleges adjust their prices down? Shouldn't you be picketing the college for basically having an indentured servitude waiver? Maybe hire you on as an actual employee.
Seems like the college is skirting paying taxes on that as well as you?
Nolan Bell
Once Atlas shrugs, they will know
Ayden Cruz
because your job is trash and if you did well you'd have got a job that requires you to actually use the material
why would you want someone designing a pipeline for a company not to have knowledge to compute water flow through vector fields? You think a highschool algebra program will prepare people for that?
Ryan Robinson
Education is an investment and should be non taxable
Evan Richardson
>you have neglected to put sources down I made very clear that this is a personal anecdote about my own situation and others in a major, well-respected US Physics department. I don't walk around with a GoPro on my head all day so I can't give you more detail than my own words, and I don't care to reveal the specific college, though I gave a detail that makes it not too hard to figure out.
Eli Campbell
This is my personal feeling as well.
Brandon Ross
>colleges charge an exhorbitant amount for tuition >they hire grad students as virtual unpaid slave labor to push their shit agenda, in exchange for complex tutition >trump effectively kills this subsidy and hits leftists where it hurts Now they gotta pay more for their (((studies)))
Zachary Rodriguez
Basically THIS.
Jackson Johnson
easy ; pay for your own education.
Jose Perry
> i am too lazy to ask my uni for compensation > i want other to pay taxes instead of me Your degree is worthless it seems.
Adrian Morris
I worked at universities for 10 years, and when I started in the 90s, tuition was free for staff even in law school and grad school. By 2001, they started taxing staff for their tuition remission, meaning it was treated as income. By 2007 the universities in our town had changed their benefits, and your dependents had to wait 3 years to get "free" tuition, and it was all tied into your tax returns. One of the only reasons I went to work for universities was to get my children in the preschool. Later I went back to another university just to get them free tuition. At the time it was $42k a year for undergrads.
Ethan Powell
Maybe we should just give engineeering jobs to eager beavers. There is a possibility that they could have done as well as me. Im sure China already does this. When an airbag fails in a car, think of me.
Cooper Williams
I'm still trying to figure out how having a surplus of scientists and engineers helps with the GPD of any country. It's mostly scientists and engineers that compete for government contracts anyway, which is tax payer subsidized, along with their education.
David Long
Engineers are simple. Large DIY-related programs at schools. Teach people mechanics, electronics etc. by practice, this will encourage them to research the more mathematical and optimization-related aspects of engineering.
Think about this. Your typical combustion engine was invented by factory clerk - both Daimler and Diesel were just these - the more unusual one was patented by a guy who sold engineering textbooks for a living(Wankel). None of them had a degree in mechanical engineering. Do you know how many types of engines did mechanical engineers(or people with PhD's in it, or professors) invent?
In other fields - Siemens was self-taught, Browning was "just" a craftsman, people like Bob Widlar only wasted their time at university to "get into" the world of engineering that got gated by the retarded "get a degree or else you're incompetent" dogma, Funk(the vitamines guy) got honorary prof. but he didn't even get past elementary(he was an apprentice at local apothecary).
It's extremely rare for inventions to be created by engineers. They mostly did the refinement of the concept, which is something that can be handled by computers with ease(especially quasi-quantum ones like D-Wave which is literally made for such things).
The reality is that engineers that come out of college are only trained enough to learn how to do their job from now on. Usually you can't tell fresh graduate to just go and design something because it'll end in a disaster. He'll have to research stuff from the ground up and the only advantage he'll have over the random guy pulled from the street is that he had to somehow pass calculus(while the random guy may as well be shit at any math), so you can expect him to be able to comprehend the material he's going to use for research. Fix math so people learn calculus at high school like they've used to and encourage technical hobbies and you'll likely end up with better engineers than any money put into STEM universities would do.
Jeremiah Gutierrez
Pretty lame reason for it being non taxable.
Not all education is an investment. Real world on the job experience is also an investment. Should my salary at a company be non taxable too?
Justin Sullivan
what does that even me
Angel Gutierrez
How fucking naive are you?
Nathan Collins
t. someone who hasnt done an engieneering major
Leo Kelly
>we just need to train *less* engineers
*fewer engineers
Levi Miller
>I'm still trying to figure out how having a surplus of scientists and engineers helps with the GPD of any country.
Because they create industries... You do realize that grad school isn't similar to undergrad right? To get the paper you have to come up with novel research. That's the whole point.
Dylan Williams
Sometimes you are right and sometimes not, who knows
Landon Barnes
SJW UNIVERSITIES BTFO
Austin Walker
>Get a job. Make the billion dollar drug companies pay you your due instead of leeching your services through universities.
if you honestly think there's enough time to work and do your masters full time you are retarded
Kevin Nelson
Maybe elementary schools students should pay a value added tax. What do you think about that Chaim ?
Adrian White
>Because they create industries Such as?
Aiden Green
You should have thought about not being black or jewish before you were born, kid, someone has to pay all those illegals
Jayden Rogers
If you took a studies major, whatever you want it to.
Aaron Cooper
>Won't this hurt US science and tech competition by creating a powerful disincentive for STEM graduate studies? won't the lower demand for graduate degrees force colleges to lower their artificially high prices that are being supported by government subsidies and tax breaks?
Easton Scott
>(((Stem))) >PhDs >Academics >Tech >Aerospace
Yeah fuck off we don't need that shit this is Trump's America now
Adrian Taylor
Actually this helps fight the inflation of tuition costs. With tuition wavers now treated as income, it gives an incentive for colleges to stop pumping up the price of their courses, prices that many students never paid anyway due to the college being reimbursed by the government for the "cost" of the education.
Imagine you are private school which decides the price of tuition. I want to enrol my child, but I can't afford the $10,000 you want for education. But our local government creates a policy to help poor students get into good (private) education by agreeing to pay the tuition fees of low income pupils. You now have a license to print money by accepting as many low income pupils as you possibly can, even if it means creating new subjects like gender studies and media studies, and receiving your $10,000 from the local government. You might even decide to start increasing the "cost" of your tuition by $1000 every year. Because it's not your "customers" paying for these increases, you know it's not likely to lower enrolment. But if the local government realised it was being fleeced by your school and changed the law so that pupils' families were taxed on the fee the government paid on their behalf.. that would threaten your enrolment numbers and hence, your income, so you would now have an incentive to lower the price of your tuition.
Andrew Cooper
Well, I am glad I got my Masters (fully funded) before this. But, it is fair because that is part of your pay. Be glad you don't have loans to pay back.
Evan Williams
The inventor of the steam locomotive, George Stephenson, never went to school at all. He was almost entirely self-taught.
Cooper Green
Eat a dick tranny
Camden Long
You are mistaking waivers with scholarships
Scholarships are unaffected, by the way
Jose Evans
I don't really feel bad that privileged bourgeois grad students have to pay a bit more in taxes.
Adam Walker
This guy should be prez
Christian Rodriguez
holy shit I'm having a hard time telling if this post is serious
Aiden Torres
William Eccles John von Newman
Look their names up you dumb faggot.
John Evans
This. Schools are just liberal indoctrination camps
Ayden Howard
Consider this. Colleges were exploiting the fuck out of the system by having artificially high tuitions that they weren't actually paying to anyone.
>It's true that there's a glut of PhD's in many fields compared to the academic positions available
Then perhaps we should be providing targeted grants to education for the areas that we actually need instead of a blanket tax break that affects the basketball team and professional protestors as well as the CS instructors.