UBW

What happens when Rin finds out what happened to Sakura?

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She shrugs and moves on because she doesn't love Sakura.

She doesn't. Sakura would never mention it on her own, Zouken would have no reason to keep abusing her after the greater grail is destroyed, and Shinji stops being a huge piece of shit after UBW. She's a powerful magus and she's stable enough to be able to move on from her trauma eventually, so I imagine she lived a successful if not particularly exciting or fulfilling life.

im not even a sakurafag but it was disheartening learning about her situation
besides the whole worms thing i would friend for life

She anonymously sends an exterminator to fumigate the Matou house to deal with the worm infestation, and takes Sakura to a healer that won't masturbate to her suffering later. She also kidnaps Shinji and castrates him.

If Rin ever finds out what happened to Sakura, she'll break horribly, especially if it's too late to save her.

HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.

Why do people like HF true while hating UBW Good? They're both Harem ends.

Maybe so for Shirou, Sakura, and Rider, but not Rin. That's UBW Good. She gets:

Overpowered Ginger Sword
Saber
Sex with both of the above as much as she wants

HF True isn't a harem. There's no way in hell Sakura would share Shirou. Shirou only gets a harem of Rin is the alpha, because she's cool with it. Sakura would maim anyone who tried to get the Shirou dick.

>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.

Sakura x Shirou and Rider x Rin.

>Why do people like HF true
But no one does. If not for Illya's scene (which could easily be integrated into HF Normal with both Illya and Shirou sacrificing themselves), it would be worthless.

>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
They end in a pretty great position materially, but I think Shirou and Rin were both better off in other routes. Shirou has to deal with the guilt of having caused the deaths of a fuckload of people, breaking his promise to Kiritsugu, and giving up on his dream of being a superhero. Heaven's Feel Shirou is the successful businesswoman who gives up on her career to be a housewife, she doesn't regret it per se, but sometimes she'll be laying awake in bed late at night wondering about what would've happened had she followed her dreams instead of settling. As for Rin: .

>But no one does.
Speak for yourself.

>Shirou has to deal with the guilt of having caused the deaths of a fuckload of people, breaking his promise to Kiritsugu, and giving up on his dream of being a superhero

He came to terms with that when he made up his mind to save Sakura over anything and anyone else.

HF Normal should have had both Shirou and Ilya sacrificing themselves and had Sakura actually do things to atone rather than just sitting at home growing flowers. HF True should never have existed.

Oh let me fix it
>No one with standards does
Unless you like unfitting pseudo-harem shit with no consequence that goes against the 20 hours of prior build up, it is an awful ending.

>He came to terms with that
In the sense of accepting it as a price to pay for her life. Like how you can accept cutting your leg off to escape from being chained in a basement, you can accept it, but it still hurts.

Because UBW have another happy ending called "UBW True end", while HF doesn't.

Many people would overlook all issues with something as long it's only happy ending for this. Even when it's illogical, stupid etc. Just like HF True.

It's the other way around. UBW Good is acceptable because it isn't the "True" ending, and it feels like the characters have earned, or at least deserve, it. HF True seems to have the message of: "The key to happiness is to be born with or happen into power and then use it to fuck over strangers for the sake of nepotism. Don't feel guilty about this because your friends and family will love you for it and you'll have all kinds of nice stuff." Which feels awful if you have empathy.

Except we talking about people reactions to endings, not about what is acceptable and where characters earned this.

HF True end have many fans, simply because it's only happy ending in this route. It's loved by people that want to have happy ending in everything that they watch/play.

I was just stating my opinion, which I believe to be the more common perspective. But I could just self-centered.

>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
So, are we going to see them actually do what Rin suggested and enter a money tournament? I can't imagine how any run of the mill magus at the clock tower could beat a team of Rin,Sakura,Rider and Shirou.

Who cares?

I do, I want to see Bazett,too.

HF was botched for a host of reasons, but mostly because it made Sakura an irredeemably bad character when she was supposed to be the heroine. You can't just spring a horrible backstory on someone for no other reason than to inspire sympathy for them. On top of that it just became a dumping ground for elements taken from other routes that got scrapped, eg. Ilya, fight scenes with Rider, etc. That just muddled the narrative even further.

But the greater grail isn't destroyed in UBW.

Rin and Waver destroy it in the Lord El-Melloi II Case Files.

From the wiki:
>In the Fate and Unlimited Blade Works routes of Fate/stay night, ten years after the Fifth Holy Grail War, the Mages Association planned on bring back the Greater Grail with great opposition from the Church. After the end of a great turmoil with the same magnitude as the Grail War, the Holy Grail in Fuyuki City was dismantled under the direction of Lord El-Melloi II and Rin Tohsaka and the Grail Wars of Fuyuki came to a complete conclusion.

Nothing of course, what else did you expect? She is not going to save her because she thinking that their separation was a right thing to do.

It's just what Nasu does. She's basically Kohaku 2: More Suffering Edition.

Huh. Although I don't really see why things would be any better for Sakura (if anything I would expect Zouken to just dispose of her if she is no longer of any use), the destruction of the greater grail is the main reason I thought HF was the only acceptable route. This kind of changes that.

>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
Best ending for Shirou is UBW Good.
Best ending for Rin is UBW Good.
Best ending for Rider is the route she was going to have to herself that got cut to make way for Typical Tortured Puppy Heroine Nasu Wants You To Feel Sorry For
HF True is only a good ending for Sakura, which is great if you can bring yourself to like Sakura as she was in FSN.

Zouken goes senile six months after the 5th War. HA confirms that all the drama involving him could have just been avoided if the Grail just held its load in for another half year.

That's what happens when you merge two routes into one

>tfw you actually have a fic of the resumption of HGW by the Mages Association with a new grail managed by the Edelfelts

was the greater grail a good plot twist?

>(if anything I would expect Zouken to just dispose of her if she is no longer of any use)
Disposing of her doesn't actually help him any, cutting ties with her is just as good, and it doesn't create an unexplained disappearance for certain nosy people to investigate. Despite all the shit he did Zouken was originally a good person, he's just obsessed with living forever and will do anything to serve that goal, but when it comes to things that don't concern that goal he's basically just a nice old man. We saw with Shinji that he was perfectly willing to keep useless people alive.

More than two routes I think. There are bits of Ilya Route, bits of Sakura route, pretty much anything involving Shirou and Rider teaming up was probably of Rider's route... And that's without bringing up stuff in other Servants' stats and skills that obviously lampshade other scrapped material, like Caster's golden fleece.

More like he kept Shinji alive so people wouldn't ask questions. If he has to go out into the streets to melt some random person into a new body, logic dictates that there must be a reason he didn't do it with Shinji despite being close at hand.

>Fate/stay night - Fate and UBW (The title of the Rin route. During the plotting stage, it was also the subtitle of Fate/stay night itself.)
>Fate/other night - Sakura and Illya (eventually merged into HF)

Honestly, when we map out the endings.

In True, Sakura may have Shirou but she does a lot. No one here can really understand living with that guilt. Moreover, the idea that Sakura doesn't care is foolhardy because she actively pushes herself in her job as Supervisor and taking care of Shirou as best she can not just because she loves him, but she is grateful to him. And also says she works so hard to not lose herself in guilt.

Its about understanding the situation rather than going off of emotion. After all, despite the fact that Ilya died to stop the ritual, she herself kept a lot of important info that could have prevented things from going tits up.

Furthermore expecting Sakura to be normal after everything happened is unrealistic, it's not just that Shirou died, but she feels the weight of that but doesn't know how she should work through it, that was plainly said in the ending. Rin telling her flatly Shirou isn't coming back doesn't help the situation and is for the most part unhelpful to ask her to live with her, because let's be honest, the Tohsakas have all but erased her as part of their family (you see Sakura's reaction to finding out her old things and all pictures of her were thrown out when she cleans Rin's house in Hollow). People fail to realize exactly what the situation is. Expecting a traumatized, 15 year old girl to suddenly become Kenshin for something that is largely not her fault is pretty out there. She pretty much had to go for self therapy, and actually made good strides considering.

Whereas you have HF True, where the story ends in hope for the future despite Shirou and Sakura bring magical freaks with unknown side effects. It ain't just them being happy, they are working toward maintaining that happiness. It'd be wrong to not consider the fact that they worked to get to that point. Only the most die hard Sakura haters seem to think that I find.

I know what's right and what's wrong. What I've protected until now, and what I want to protect right now. I know which choice is correct, and which is wrong. With that in mind, I

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I never even considered it to be a twist until you just said that. An explanation was required for the mechanism by which the grail wars were actually set up, and they were clearly building toward the explanation, so it wasn't exactly a shocker. Pretty much every part of it had been really heavily hinted at.

There were also Caster, Rider and Shinji routes planned.

How would any of those have even worked?

After all, around this point, the plot itself was starting to stray. Not only Rider, but even Caster was a potential heroine candidate. It was terrifyingly chaotic.

>Shinji route
How the fuck would that even work? Shirou somehow manages to redeem Shinji despite him being a literal rapist and then they have buttsex?

There are lots of reasons he would dispose of her. Paranoia, convenience, she is still good material if he doesn't give up on the grail. The list goes on.

It might give some people peace of mind to think Zouken would just become retarded and sulk off in a corner, but if his dream dies, all he has is his obsession to live, and Sakura is just a fresh body that will rot slower than normal humans.

Post UBW, Nasu just doesn't say what goes on concerning certain characters for brevity, that's it.

>It ain't just them being happy, they are working toward maintaining that happiness. It'd be wrong to not consider the fact that they worked to get to that point.
I won't deny that they worked hard, but they worked hard for themselves at the expense of others. Bank robbers, drug tycoons, and tinpot dictators also work hard, but that doesn't make them deserving of what they get from that work. I don't think Sakura can really be faulted for what Zouken made her into (though it is implied that everything the shadow did came from her repressed desires, but YMMV), but seeing Shirou do all that he did and get away with it is simply stomach turning.

This. She even tries to kill her in Heaven's Feel.

>"FATE" was, originally, planned to have 4 heroines with 4 routes.
>The first part would be temporarily playing either Saber or Rin, the two would meet at the middle part, and the last part would proceed into 4 routes...... or like so, it was made into a very confusing plot.
>The first of the scrapped routes was, the well-known Ilya route. Other than that, there were the Rider route where Rin & Saber fight as a team, and the Caster route which would make Caster as a loli and the partner. The Caster route has completely extinguished, but the plot regarding a cooperation with Rider is continued in a portion of the actual game, the Heaven's Feel route.
>If there was the Ilya route, there would have been a choice in the 9th day of Sakura route which would have chosen to be not the hero of justice, nor Sakura's hero, but Ilya's hero. The possibility has disappeared in the actual game.

Yeah, at some moment of the production stage, even Fate and UBW didn't existed yet. Fate/stay night suffered a lot of conception changes... In this article in the Fate/side material, they mention some portion of the game involving Saber & Rin, and then a last part of "short routes" (Sakura, Ilya, Rider, Caster). At the end, Sakura route absorbed Rider route and Ilya route, and Caster route was totally scrapped.

However, as you know, for a temperamental genius like Shinji even a friend of many years is not safe from suddenly becoming his enemy for incomprehensible reasons.

Basically, he's the kind of person that's reliable when he's on your side but ends up being really troublesome if he turns on you.
Originally there was going to be an option to accept his invitation to join forces in the Saber route, but tragically we ran out of time and were forced to cut it.

Ah, if we'd included that route (let's call it the “Shinji route”), players would have gotten to see a bit of Shinji's good side, but there was just no way. Please, find it in your hearts to forgive us!

>"The key to happiness is to be born with or happen into power and then use it to fuck over strangers for the sake of nepotism. Don't feel guilty about this because your friends and family will love you for it and you'll have all kinds of nice stuff."
More like: "What really matters is those who are close to you. If you want to be a real hero, don't betray them for the sake of convenience, but stick with them to the very end even if the world turns against you." If you have empathy, you'll realize anything but a complete happy end for Sakura feels awful.

The way I see each route is using a new facet of Shirou's powers to better understand the complexities of Shirou and his raison d'etre. In short, each route is a lesson on how Shirou avoids becoming like Archer.
>Fate
he trains his ability to trace objects he sees and understands, and gains a moral compass onto which to fix himself to (the promise of Avalon).
>UBW
he trains UBW and comes to terms with his goal being impossible but virtuous and worth pursuing anyway, as well as gaining Rin to keep him in line.
>HF
he trains his ability to trace not just objects but concepts and techniques tied to the object, and ultimately rejects his raison d'etre to save himself and Sakura at all costs.

>Rider
I'm not sure how it'd tie in with Shirou's powers, but a crux of this route I imagine would be the trichotomy explored in F/HA; man, monster, hero. Man defeats hero, another cautionary tale against Shirou becoming Archer, and possibly proving to Medusa that these qualities are not fixed; instead of letting fate dictate that she's a monster she may fight as a woman, even a hero if she chooses.

>Caster
Along the route he either comes to of his own volition or is shown by Caster how to trace personal truths and concepts with enough firmness as actual qualities of an object; while Caster herself has no use for the Argon Coin, popular culture dictates that Jason's Golden Fleece is a divine armor in the same league as Avalon. It'd also delve more into her backstory, and show to Shirou that heroes aren't faultless and that the Archer approach of killing anything in the path of justice will spill blood that's more innocent than first believed.

I'm sorry, but that is a very subjective moral. Family and friends are important, but yeah, there are bigger things out there than them, especially in a world where magic and superpowers exist.

I wouldn't put it that strongly. But I didn't agree with that other user either.

Being born into power in that world for Sakura made her life hell, so it's dubious to say it gained her anything. It's more like, now she has a chance to live a life of her own, and maybe feel some pride and accomplishment in being born a magus. And for Shirou, just like post UBW, it's a chance for him to love himself in the truest sense.

But that's just selfishness with added steps. It's choosing the wrong answer to the trolley problem because the people YOU know and love are more important than the people that others know and love. Sakura has more of a right to live than all the people who the shadow killed simply because Shirou is in love with her.

HF Shirou reminds me of that video I saw of a penguin being eaten alive while surrounded by other penguins. The birds that were eating the penguin weren't that big, the other penguins could have easily fought them off had they worked together, but only its mate tried to help it. That's what happens when people think the way Shirou does, they care only about those close to them and let everyone else die for their sakes. The only reason human civilization was able to form at all was by moving past that kind of thinking.

>If you have empathy
Frankly, no we don't. Not through any fault of our own, but because Nasu didn't sufficiently sell Sakura to the reader as someone worth empathy.

>it made Sakura an irredeemably bad character
Actually, she's easily among the most complex and well-written characters in the VN, and considering her circumstances, she's pretty much an angel for managing to remain as kind and selfless as she is.

That is kind of a problem with her.

Shirou technically should care about her more than any of the heroines, but we as readers don't, because we don't spend two routes hanging out with her, like we did with Rin and Saber.

>Not through any fault of our own
>wow she got raped what a slut xD
Keep telling yourself that.

Rin is far more complex.

No one in this thread said that. The only match for the word slut is your post.

...

She could've been if she wasn't outed as the big bad in the first act of HF.

Rin is about as generic as it gets. The only semblance of character depth she has other than being a generic tsundere is her relation to Sakura, and even that is pretty much just her being a tsundere for her own sister.

Rin is at her best in UBW. Interesting, complex, unforgettable dialogue, amazing key in Shirou's story.

If an opinion seems so outrageous that it identical to what bait would look like then just treat it as such and don't go on some 50+ post argument that we've already had hundred of times.

>outed as the big bad in the first act of HF.
[citation needed]
The route throws a lot of misdirections at you, but the astute reader realizes that Sakura is good at heart.

Whereas Sakura is just a dime a dozen doormat character you see in hundred of other IPs, with the only difference being a trademark Nasu tragic backstory shoehorned in late to inspire sympathy. I'd say that's even more generic than a tsundere, who at least by definition has demonstrable character layers.

>doormat
Opinion discarded.

When "The Shadow" speaks, it's in Sakura's voice.
>Sakura's good at heart
So was Ol' Yeller.

Rin is the most understandable, and relatable "tsundere" you can come across. Her actions generally aren't born from being too shy to admit she loves Shirou, so much as she gets frustrated by him literally jumping into danger.

Outside of that, she's a character who's in over her head. She presents herself as being calm, cool, and ready to fight in the war, but when push comes to shove, she's still just a teenager who freaks out when they see a mortally wounded person.

That's one of the first inklings she has about Shirou being off, since he doesn't flinch during the stuff going down at the school.

The shadow is linked to Sakura, but it isn't Sakura herself. That's a good example of the red herrings meant to make one doubt Sakura during the route. Also, you do realize F/SN wasn't voiced originally?

>Rin and Sakura
>Not the worst characters in FSN

That's still not exactly deep, especially not compared to HF having interludes upon interludes devoted to showing Sakura struggling to stay sane while all the good and bad parts of her mind are shown.

Please don't anyone respond to this.

>caster route

You can have those interludes, but what comes of it?

Rin is an active character. We see her thoughts in the prologue, and have her in every part of the narrative.

I don't hate Sakura, but the fact is, she's not really there until the third route, and she spends a good chunk of it literally lying in bed.

Shiki did that in Hisui's route of Tsukihime, too, which made for an interesting setting, but the man had four other routes of doing things too.

And yeah, I know Sakura becomes active at the end of HF, but does that make up for everything else?

How long are the last two days of HF? 50k words? I'm shooting that and being generous.

For an 800k word novel, that's not too great.

Except it was very poorly done.
>hey look, it's all the characters you loved in the first two arcs!
>and here's that doormat who did and said nothing up until now, she's going to eat them all!
>now feel sorry for the doormat! EMPATHISE, DAMNIT!

Rin also has more to her character than what I mentioned.

I mean Shirou provides a contrast for her in a lot of ways. She's trained to try and be this perfect mage, like her father wanted her to be, but she sees in Shirou that he's a genuinely good person, even if he isn't front of the line to get into the Clocktower.

She can live her life, rather than the one expected of her as a member of the Tohsaka family.

>she's going to eat them all!
So yeah, you didn't even read the route and are just baiting. Nice to know.

I think Sakura was a fairly deep character, she had layers to her, and I appreciate her. But she just wasn't compelling to read about, she felt boring. Outside of her tragic backstory and failure to find the will to kill herself but success at staying otherwise moral as long as she did, there wasn't a lot to her. She had depth, but not... breadth, I guess? Whenever she wasn't struggling with her inner demons she was just kind of there. She comes off as bland and submissive, which is the point, it's what makes her transition to dark Sakura shocking, but it's still a point against her appeal as a character. Almost every scene with her in it is dry and slow, even when the better parts of her character were being shown off I still just wanted to move on to the more interesting parts of the story. She's like a black and white painting, it might be really well composed, but I'd still rather hang up a color painting of similar if lesser quality in my living room.

What didn't I get?

There's actually a lot of layers to her character, but these facets were mostly explored during the SoL scenes, which I unironically enjoyed.

The Shadow isn't Sakura. It's Angra Mainyu, which is gradually fusing with her body and corrupting her mind over the course of the route because she's the grail.

Who was in the right and who was in the wrong?

For one, she didn't eat any named characters other than True Assassin and Gil, one of whom made his first appearance in the route and the other was less than loveable in the previous two routes. That's a far-cry from "all of them" and it's arguable whether she's actually responsible for eating Gil or not.

One of them sold out his daughter to an old man without doing a background check. The other one wants to save said little girl. Who the fuck do you think was in the wrong?

Both were wrong.

Man, in a roundabout way, Rin scored when she didn't have to be raised by her dad.

Regardless, Rin is still the better written and true heroine of the story.

>The other one wants to save said little girl.

Well, you know, intents and actions are teensy bit different, considering he ended up strangling that little girl's mother.

>The Shadow isn't Old Yeller. It's Rabies, which is gradually fusing with his body and corrupting his mind over the course of the route because he's a rabid dog.
Also, literally none of this is given to the reader before we have to decide whether to save her or not. What we are given is all our favourites being killed off by this big shadow we know is Sakura, who again we are given no real reason to feel sorry for.

>likely Caster
>Lancer
>Saber
>Archer
>very likely at least half of the muggles from school you never see again

Tokiomi was right because Kariya was a salty and selfish fuck who got everything that was coming to him.

t.cuck

...

I'd say in terms of writing Sakura is just as well-written as she is. And no matter what you'd like to think the true heroine is Illya.

There is no right and wrong here. One was a mage with a mage's mindset. The other was a mage with a human's mindset.

She's not even the true heroine of her own route.

Archer is pretty firmly the antagonist.

Guy is actually kind of a fucking asshole in UBW.

She's never the heroine, she's more of a second protagonist considering she has a major role and focus in every route.

Wait. Do you really think Shirou doesn't care about others? Because you missed the entire reason why he even fought. He wanted to give Sakura a future and refused to sacrifice her. It's literally the same Shirou we have seen since forever.

He thought about, he thought about killing Rin if she recklessly. Shirou's deal is that he wasn't gonna be swayed by the BS of saying that if Sakura dies everything is fixed. Which hindsight tells us, is true. Sakura never needed to die to stop AM, despite being it's current host. Shirou was lost being an amateur in this situation and having little to no reliable info. I loved when he punched Kirei in the face for fucking with him all that time.

Ilya had trouble accepting the ritual was a failure until things went to hell in a handbasket. She was willing to use Shirou's soul as blackmail against Sakura to fulfill the ritual, amongst other terrible things before she and Shirou bonded, and she abandoned her mission from the Einzberns.

It's not a trolley problem question at all, it's a matter of a clusterfuck happening and a bunch of kids being trolled with misinformation by a edgy priest and a mummy who was cucked by a Japanese man long ago, but can't let go of his boner for a German hottie.