Why did people choose this show to shit on and call it a trainwreck when Code Geass also had most of the same problems...

Why did people choose this show to shit on and call it a trainwreck when Code Geass also had most of the same problems? Fucktons of plot conveniences, terrible pacing, flat out silly moments we were supposed to take seriously, unexplained shit and a bunch of underdeveloped characters, all of those check.

Not that I'm saying Guilty Crown is better or even as enjoyable as Code Geass, but now that I took my time to watch both, I'm wondering why things turned out like this. Is it because Guilty Crown borrowed too much from Code Geass, leading people to view it as a shitty ripoff and have some negative bias since the beginning?

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I think people just got disappointed while watching it, it felt like it could have been Geass tier fun but it never got there

Will do.

I can definitely understand that, especially because Lelouch is a lot more fun to watch as a protagonist than Shu, even though I don't hate the latter as much as most people seem to.

The mini Hitler part was pretty good

Code Geass just handled the execution and delivery better, frankly. The characters were much more entertaining/likable regardless of the level of development, the drama was ridiculous but engaged you better and basically never felt as who-cares-tier as traitor kid and his brother for example, etc. Geass had a mishmash of crazy shit that they managed to glue it together with exaggerated pathos and theatricality, while Guilty Crown was just smashed together without that glue, and honestly felt boring a lot of the time despite how bizarre some of the shit actually happening was.

Surprisingly I agree with a lot of what was said there, and it was a pretty entertaining read too. But to be honest, someone could write a review like that regarding Code Geass as well and call it some kind of unspeakable trainwreck at the end.

The complaints about episodes that add little to the story, for example, could be used against CG in a similar fashion. R1 can be summed up as "Lelouch plans something but Suzaku gets in the way and it goes kinda bad" for at least half of the episodes, R2 also spends a lot of time on Lelouch's fake school life and some barely relevant stuff before the plot goes somewhere.

Things like Gai having enough plot armor to survive a fucking nuke from space, some things seeming too convenient, character decisions that seem stupid or just don't make sense whatsoever, plot elements that are introduced and forgotten later on, and unexplained stuff in general can also compare with Code Geass.

Why was Suzaku of all people on the empire chosen to pilot the Lancelot when he didn't even have any experience piloting Knightmares and by that time was just some random japanese soldier? Also, how the hell does Suzaku expect to change the empire from the inside by being a soldier instead of a politician or something? Why doesn't Lelouch realize how overpowered his Geass is and use it to get every britannian soldier he can and also get important people from the anti-Britannia factions to his side instead of sometimes resorting to fight both Britannia and anti-Britannia forces? Why did they bother to introduce this weakness to Lelouch's power where he lost control of it to only use it once to make Euphie kill all the japanese people and then brush it off? Honestly, there's a lot of stupidly-written stuff Code Geass is also guilty of, these are just a few I'm thinking of right now.

Because most people cannot see past their own biases to critically analyze the shows they are convinced are "perfect" or good.

Code Geass is just a meme, anyone with a modicum of taste thinks both are a pile of shit.

Code Geass made me hyped with its first episode, but GC annoyed me and made me think
>get to the point already!
>I really don't care for these 2 lead characters, they are too obnoxious

It's all about the characters and the delivery of the story

Why would I want to? All I care about is how enjoyable it is. Anyone who thinks "good" can be removed from their own biases is a retard, anyway.

>trainwreck
>plot conveniences
>pacing
>underdeveloped characters
>ripoff
>bias
A+ review where do I subscribe?

GC was hyped to death and failed to deliver,still love the ost.

Yeah, Guilty Crown would probably work better if they fleshed out its characters and their personalities as well. Inori could use some more backstory like C.C had, the crazy psychopath guy from GHQ was apparently a "good person on the inside" according to his superior, but this supposedly "good" side of him is barely shown at all, I wanted to see what was the deal with Ayase and Tsugumi and why they joined the rebels, and so on.

But I don't think it had zero character development either, Gai was apparently a strong and cocky Gary Stu-ish leader at first, and later on we find out that on the inside he's actually not as great as he shows himself off to people. The traitor guy and his brother, despite having little actual development, were interesting. On the episode where Shu ends up killing the brother, it shows that the guy actually hated his brother for slowing him down with his space cancer, also he's pretty much the one manipulating everybody during the Hitler arc. He was using Shu because of his power and seems to hold some grudge due to his brother's death in spite of not really liking him, but was doing that mostly to make sure everyone survives in the end. The blonde girl who people call a whore also went through some shit and changed for the worse, but she made for a decent antagonist anyway.

Also, I didn't find Shu to be that awful. He was a faggy wimp for the most part, yes, but he was established from the beginning as a coward with a borderline autistic personality, kinda like Shinji Ikari, and someone like him to get suddenly thrown into a huge conflict must be hard to deal with. He builds up some courage in the first handful of episodes, but being forced to kill his friend's brother made him go back to being a coward for some more time before trying again. He really did remind me of Shinji, maybe a bit too much, but I've seen worse lead characters.

It's common to get invested in the main character when you watch a show. When the main character is the kind you'd root for, it makes the show more enjoyable. When the character is a whiny little bitch, it becomes really irritating after a while.

Btw people called Code Geass a trainwreck when it originally came our as well

enjoying things that don't feature traditionally "good" storytelling/animation says more about you than the anime is all

They did?

I remember R2 getting a handful of flak, but R1 was always highly rated.

Alright, good to know that if I disagree with conventional wisdom then you don't like my tastes. Again, why would anyone care?

>Why was Suzaku of all people on the empire chosen to pilot the Lancelot when he didn't even have any experience piloting Knightmares and by that time was just some random japanese soldier?
In the second episode Lloyd states that he had the highest test score on the KMF simulation and had came to Area 11 to scout him.
>Also, how the hell does Suzaku expect to change the empire from the inside by being a soldier instead of a politician or something?
Also explained in series that becoming a Knight of One will grant you the power to govern an entire nation which is what he was aiming for, he also made friends with an Imperial Princess and a Duke along the way granted him Knighthood.
>Why doesn't Lelouch realize how overpowered his Geass is and use it to get every britannian soldier he can and also get important people from the anti-Britannia factions to his side instead of sometimes resorting to fight both Britannia and anti-Britannia forces?
Wow that's...really fucking stupid. While Lelouch's Geass is strong it is not all powerful and the only people who would know what happened to his mother were a select group of people within the Family that he didn't know about and there would have been no chance for him to have actually get to them since they wold be essentially exposing his identity, as hypocritical as it seem due to his actions Lelouch didn't want anyone in his organization that he put under his control and believed in free-will and all that jazz and that really wouldn't have helped him at all.
>Why did they bother to introduce this weakness to Lelouch's power where he lost control of it to only use it once to make Euphie kill all the japanese people and then brush it off?
Not a lot of people would defend this in the first place but its contrivance for contrivance sake and its meant to damage Lelouch's and Suzaku's relationship even more, could it have been dealt in a less asspully way? Definitely but after the Mao arc its to be expected.

GC had a garbage cast while CG had Lelouch.

well nobody cares if you care or not user, they'll just judge your taste and carry on all the same

Because Guilty Crown does everything worse than Code Geass and actually introduces a bunch of new problems that make the show far worse. All anime has plot conveniences

Also, this...

>flat out silly moments we were supposed to take seriously

...is mostly BS on your part. 90% of the time, something you think is silly also happens to be silly for the staff involved, if you do any digging around

That would be a very sloppy summing up though, since there are plenty of episodes of Code Geass that do not match your description. Thus you're full of hyperbole there. Even in R2, it's not like there is nothing going on when they have school life episodes, of which there's really only a handful.

The impact of unexplained stuff is open to debate. Evangelion doesn't explain everything in-universe either. You'd need to go look for extra materials to learn about stuff. Even Gundam doesn't really address much about Newtypes that well in most of their appearances.

Asking that about Suzaku is like complaining about how mecha pilots are chosen in most mecha anime, which is chock full of people accidentally finding robots and being allowed to pilot them with no prior training.

Lelouch was being prudent with his Geass and going on a mad rush to use it on everyone and everything would backfire even more quickly then the problems he ad.

The evolution is not a "weakness" of the Geass though. It's more like a process. You get permanent Geass in one eye, then in two eyes. That's when you can get a Code and become immortal. Lelouch got his other permanent Geass eye in R2 ep 21 and it's apparent that he became immortal shortly afterwards, if the upcoming sequel is any indication.

Doesn't mean you can't criticize a bunch of things in the show, but most of your examples are very weak or questionable at best.

*...and everything would backfire even more quickly than the problems he had.

Guilty Crown is a literal trainwreck dragged on by Shu's spineless incompetence. Code Geass is a rollercoaster that occasionally feels like a trainwreck but had a more interesting core thanks to Lelouch and reached a much better end.

People's standards were lower when Geass aired.

>The complaints about episodes that add little to the story, for example, could be used against CG in a similar fashion. R1 can be summed up as "Lelouch plans something but Suzaku gets in the way and it goes kinda bad" for at least half of the episodes, R2 also spends a lot of time on Lelouch's fake school life and some barely relevant stuff before the plot goes somewhere.
I don't want to get into a point-by-point argument because that'd last forever (and the other guy's already got that covered, anyway), but this complaint is just silly. The Lelouch-vs.-Suzaku operations only happen like four or five times in R1, and those incounters regularly involve something else going on, usually character-wise, that make them more relevant. Suzaku refusing Lelouch, C.C. saving Lelouch, Lelouch finding out Suzaku is piloting the Lancelot, Schneizel's arrival and Lelouch's time with Euphie on the island - it builds in these developments to prevent the battles from getting stale.

>In the second episode Lloyd states that he had the highest test score on the KMF simulation and had came to Area 11 to scout him.

He still didn't have any experience piloting an actual Knightmare. Considering how advanced and important Lancelot was to the empire, handing him to a guy whose only track record is getting the highest score on a simulation when there are probably a lot other pilots with more experience seems bizarre.

It's like giving the most powerful tank in your army to a pilot who just passed the tank-piloting test instead of someone in a higher rank. Would make more sense if Suzaku started with some generic normal Knightmare and then earn the right to pilot Lancelot later.

>Also explained in series that becoming a Knight of One will grant you the power to govern an entire nation which is what he was aiming for, he also made friends with an Imperial Princess and a Duke along the way granted him Knighthood.

Oh right, I forgot about that. Even though it more or less ties to the fact that he was conveniently allowed to pilot Lancelot as his first Knightmare. It would take way much longer for him to be recognized the way he did if he went the soldier route without Lancelot being handed to him right from the start. Probably no one would care about what he thinks because they would be too busy ordering him to fight against the people he's supposedly trying to save/protect.

(Damn char limit)

>While Lelouch's Geass is strong it is not all powerful and the only people who would know what happened to his mother were a select group of people within the Family that he didn't know about and there would have been no chance for him to have actually get to them since they wold be essentially exposing his identity, as hypocritical as it seem due to his actions Lelouch didn't want anyone in his organization that he put under his control and believed in free-will and all that jazz and that really wouldn't have helped him at all.

The only way people would be able to expose his identity would be if he told them while using his Geass. I'm pretty sure that if he just said "follow me" as Zero, they would follow Zero without knowing that he's Lelouch. Sure, he believed in free will, but that was still mostly the reason why he got into trouble with people that were supposed to be his allies.

Wait, why is "become a politician" even on the table? This is a fucking absolute monarchy, politics isn't really a chosen career so much as something nobles do. And an eleven would clearly not be allowed to do it, anyway.

Code Geass did everything better.
Better and more dynamic characters. Voice actors were amazing. Timing and pacing were great.
GC is just shit.

Wait a minute I thought both were considered trainwreck by Sup Forums? You won't fool me OP.

IMO Geass was fun but GC was just a miserable mess.

Do you have any source that the studio staff thought things like Lelouch accidentally making Euphie want to kill all japanese and the whole "One Million Zeros" episode were silly? Because those parts made me laugh, even if they were aparently played as something I should take seriously.

I mean, the former was literally what started the biggest conflict of the first season.

LICKING CHOCOLATE IN MY DRAINAGE

>6 years later
She still gets merchandise
And I fucking love it

Gai is pretty much the worst written character on the show and that's saying a lot, biggest problem with him is that he feels so underwritten and there's huge portions of his backstory that's never detailed or given much development because he's meant to be Shu's poplar opposite and not much else which is was probably one of the only well-done aspect of Code Geass was Lelouch's rivalry with Suzaku where you understand where both characters are coming from and why they do the things they do and in GC you're just wondering why does Gai even exist other than to delivery half baked exposiion.

That whole episode of GC is probably the only one people will agree was decently written and it was one of the few episodes written by the Code Geass head writer Okouchi. Sugar winded up not being a bad character all said and done.

Arisa was just all around lame, just a dumb character with a dumb motive who didn't even get a satisfying death just to put an end to her worthless existence instead she survives for some reason other than to be a last fuck you to the audience much like Daryl did

Shu's problem is the same as every other character in GC in which they are written to be extreme personifications of tropes that are popular in order to be popular because there's no other way you can establish that Shu is a wimp other than seeing him bundled in the fetal position while the love of his life gets captured in the first episode, Evangelion managed to have more subtle in its characterization than a lot of anime back then and now so the characters actually felt more real and you can get their plights without making them retarded in the eyes of the viewer and that was essentially Shu's problem, he's Shinji if all that character had to him was being a wimpy faggot.

Code Geass is a trainwreck, most people agree. But it's an enjoyable one.

Guilty Crown would have been perfect if they ended it the first time they "kill" Shoe's sister and just added a few scenes to deal with the few plot holes left.
As amusing as the whole Shurer deal was, the show shot itself in the foot after that.

Sup Forums loves Code Geass

>The only way people would be able to expose his identity would be if he told them while using his Geass.
And then as it turns out Zero the leader of the BK was a young Britannian teenager
>I'm pretty sure that if he just said "follow me" as Zero, they would follow Zero without knowing that he's Lelouch.
And then begs the question why would a Britannia Official be siding with a terrorist organization.

>It's like giving the most powerful tank in your army to a pilot who just passed the tank-piloting test instead of someone in a higher rank.
You do realize that in order for someone to be certified to operate a tank or any vehicle for that matter they have to pass tests right? If the recruit scored the highest in a simulation then he's more than qualified to start piloting the real thing also the whole point of Lloyd scouting him was that he needed a guinea pig essentially since the Lancelot was untested as you can see him asking a high ranking Britannian Official to pilot a highly dangerous experimental mecha was out of the question.

>It would take way much longer for him to be recognized the way he did if he went the soldier route without Lancelot being handed to him right from the start
Well if we take the show's word he was always going to be recruited by Lloyd one way or another due to his high scores, there's also the fact that he was still pretty much a low ranking soldier even after being selected as a pilot for it and jump ranks due to his feats alone throughout the show. The only one that felt "out of nowhere" was him meeting Euphie who literally fell out of the sky and even then he grew favors with her by being a nice guy. Really its like saying that Lelouch wouldn't have gotten anywhere without magic eye powers well no shit its an anime its not suppose to adhere to logic or be realistic.

Because michael bay isnt japanese

They ruined Gai's character when they revived him, it would be better if he just stayed dead and Shu ended up becoming the new leader as he follows Gai's example and mans the fuck up. I'm not really sure why they felt the need to make him into a villain anyway, there were a lot of other villains in the show already and most of them got their spotlight stolen by Zombie Gai.

As for Arisa, she and the other people at the school were teenagers who were probably getting their heads messed up in that situation, and considering teenagers are quick to make dumb shit I probably didn't get too mad at her for this. But I agree she deserved a worse punishment for her shit, and so did Daryl.

EVA did the wimpy protagonist a lot better than GC, no contest. But I found Shu going from a wimpy faggot to Hitler to be entertaining, or at least the closest he's got to being as entertaining to watch as someone like Lelouch. It didn't feel forced either, for such a big shift in his personality, he was still mostly a good guy who was just trying to save everyone he could. He didn't even want to get revenge on the people who turned on him, even though he would have every reason to do that.

because the first part of geass was actually good
the second part had enough of its characters fleshed out to carry the shitty story

>And then as it turns out Zero the leader of the BK was a young Britannian teenager

They wouldn't have to know he's a young Britannian teenager.

>And then begs the question why would a Britannia Official be siding with a terrorist organization

People were already asking why Gottwald suddenly helped Zero with freeing Suzaku anyway. What would Lelouch have to lose if he just made it look like Zero has so much influence that he's getting people from the Britannian empire to obey him?

As for Suzaku and the Lancelot, I took a better look at how it went and it does make more sense now, so I take that part back.

He wasn't a good character to begin with but bringing him back was the most baffling decision in the show since his arc was all tied up with him sacrificing himself to save Shu and Inori why bring him back just to make him a more evil version of his old self?

There's only so far a dumb teenager can be dumb but her entire character just fell completely off the chart that you have to wonder what was the point of keeping her alive considering she betrayed everyone she knew for Gai's dick. Really just a waste of a character.

I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that Shuher was the only entertaining aspect of his character and the only aspect of his that's not being a wimpy faggot but at the same time not a boring alpha male at the end of the show, kinda brought his character into a new light and there was also hints that Inori was driving him insane all throughout that arc that didn't really go anywhere but besides the conclusion with everyone betraying him a scene that stuck out was his confrontation with his advisor who ironically was trying to help him at that point in the story when he realize he had gone too far and that Inori was poisoning him mentally seeing Shu retaliate by calling him "Sugar" was surprising since that's such a trope in anime that's rarely done seeing a character bring up how much of a dick the person was before they mended their relationship.
>They wouldn't have to know he's a young Britannian teenager.
Of course they would by unmasking him
>What would Lelouch have to lose if he just made it look like Zero has so much influence that he's getting people from the Britannian empire to obey him?
Actually that came to bite him in the ass in R2 when the BK betrayed him and would have made it more justifiable action on that part if he literally brainwashed people into the organization.

Not him but Suzaku is a poorly written character in general, his line of thought makes no sense and he gets his prestige completely by fucking plot convenience one way or another

"That evil Zero and his black knights... saving people, dealing with criminals, punishing an oppressive empire that treats other races besides theirs like shit and kills innocent people with no remorse. His methods are wrong! I serve this aggressive empire with these awful methods he's fighting against, but who cares, he's wrong because... he's wrong! Yes, he is totally wrong!"

I know we were supposed to hate him, but he's stupid and nonsensical beyond belief, I almost dropped Code Geass because of this fucking guy

This. Suzaku is garbage and does not provide moral ambiguity at all since no one agrees with him and his methods are literally proven to be inefficient compared to Lelouch by the end of the series.

>Lelouch accidentally making Euphie want to kill all japanese

I'll say this one is more open, but the way Euphemia herself is presented once she goes mad is pretty telling. She's treated just like Orange and other famous victims of Lelouch.

They even have her smile, kindly ask people to die and even apologize (she tells Dalton "I'm sorry general, but I must kill all the Japanese!"). They also make light of the SAZ incident in the Nunnally in Wonderland special.

The serious part is that, of course, this all leads to Euphemia's death.


>whole "One Million Zeros" episode were silly?

This one is much easier to tell. Even the staff has said this is only possible in anime, not real life. Also, did you fail to notice:

a) That they even dressed up a pet in the Zero suit. What does that tell you?

b) That every named character in that suit is color-coded?

If you think that One Million Zeroes was a serious scene for serious people, I have news for you.

It's one of the only "trainwrecks" that doesn't actually wreck itself in the long run and gives people various reasons to watch at the same time. Thus in a way Code Geass feels like more of a trainwreck than what it actually is, objectively speaking.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

Except it can be argued taht Suzaku is actually pretty well written once you understand he's not supposed to be a normal, mentally healthy person in the first place. The man is a sick, traumatized individual who stubbornly clings on to a decision he made as a little boy, not because it's the best option available.

It's not truly about the ambiguity. The show sides with Lelouch eight times out of ten, so Suzaku's methods (while more realistic in certain situations, depending on factors the show doesn't get to explore) are not being strongly defended by the story.

Furthermore, in the end of Geass the fact is Suzaku ended up accepting Lelouch's "evil" methods and accepting he had been too naive before. But at the same time, Lelouch ended up changing Britannia from the inside too, even if it was part of his masquerade to pull off ZR. Thus each of them adopted a little of the other.

>Not him but Suzaku is a poorly written character in general,
Nope, hell he was a more interesting character than Lelouch for playing up a twisted version of an archetype done a million times before while Lelouch was just a discount Char. The show would have been boring as shit without him.
>That evil Zero and his black knights... saving people, dealing with criminals, punishing an oppressive empire that treats other races besides theirs like shit and kills innocent people with no remorse
Except Zero wasn't doing this shit in fact it was Zero's actions that led to damn near everything in Code Geass turning badly for everyone. That was the ultimate irony in Lelouch's actions is that he never had to do the shit he did if he had wanted for Nunnally to be happy because she was happiest with him by her side.

>I know we were supposed to hate him,
He's the second most popular character in the show, the only people who hated him were Lelouchfags.
Suzaku was able to reach the highest rank a Japanese person had ever reached in the Britannian Army and the only reason why the SAZ failed was because of Lelouch's actions not because it was wrong to begin with.
>The show sides with Lelouch eight times out of ten
The show ultimately states that Lelouch was wrong given that he's shown in his face that all the bad shit he was doing up to that point was for naught since his mother was alive pulling the strings and his lost his Army in the brink of an eye due to all the actions he had committed biting him in the ass. Zero's Requiem came about when he realized this and was something that he would have never thought of if he was still in his S1 mindset which is ironic because that's the same sort of mindset Schienzel had.

Literally both sides in Code Geass are fucking shit and the only reason why anyone gives a shit about the Japanese is because Lelouch was commanding them until they betrayed him and then all of a sudden the audience turned their back on those characters they were rooting for over 40 episodes.
>since no one agrees with him
Euphie and Nunnally
> and his methods are literally proven to be inefficient compared to Lelouch by the end of the series.
Main reason why Britannia isn't wiped out entirely by the end was due to the change in the system by Lelouch's rule. All that happens is that they switched positions in their stances which is part of the ultimate irony of it.

This desu

Code Geass wanted the audience to follow Lelouch and it was he who ultimately decided to not even fight back against the betrayal and embraced going his own way, so that's not surprising to be honest.

Neither of them was fully right. Of course Lelouch was not perfect and he did make a bunch of mistakes. However, the show ends up saying that using foul trickery in the name of peace is a good thing, which is what Lelouch had been doing all along, at least in principle. He did mess up due to his misuse of Geass and other mistakes, like you mentioned, but the outcome only forced him to accept responsibility, not to move away from that position into a less radical solution..

>it was he who ultimately decided to not even fight back against the betrayal
Because he was suicidal not because they were right.
>However, the show ends up saying that using foul trickery in the name of peace is a good thing
I don't think the show had anything to say really and of course there's the inverse of saying that "sure you can do a bunch of horrible shit but are you willing to pay the price in the end" which is what what happened. If any case I don't think Code Geass is a show you should get a message from since it ultimately became a character piece than one with a message where there was something to take from it.

Personally? Lelouch was pretty fucking fun to watch as an MC, I never found myself really gritting my teeth because of decisions he would make. Sure, some of the shit he pulled was ridiculous. But it was almost always fun and entertaining.

Shoe just irritated me as a character. I watched like 7 or so episodes before I couldn't stand him.