Many people might say "well the soul is immaterial, and it's the soul that goes to heaven". But the issue with this is: how does one experience with "a soul" ? We already know that feelings and emotions can be heightened or disabled entirely by manipulating the PHYSICAL material of your body. All feeling can be removed by removing your touch sensors. All 6 of your senses can be removed by destroying parts of the brain, but you will still be sentient - and I don't think christians would claim that a person's soul has left while they're still alive. It's the same with thought - we can reduce your thinking property by destroying parts of the brain, or we can increase it by taking adderall (physical effect) meaning these 2 are undeniably linked to each other.
Bible says in Luke 16:24 about a beggar in hell: "and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." meaning there's clearly PHYSICAL feeling and emotion in hell. How can these be felt, when feeling and emotion, and even thought, are by definition properties of the PHYSICAL body and ego? If the soul goes to heaven,but the soul cannot be EXPERIENCED, then how is "heaven" different from the buddhist conception of complete disappearance?
The bible also describes heaven as a place of eternal bliss, but how does one experience "bliss" ? Is that not also an emotion? And if the bible is only metaphorical when it describes feelings and emotions in heaven/hell, what are they metaphorical OF?
Need responses from people who believe in heaven/hell.
I would like to believe in an afterlife. It's a very comforting idea, but there are some issues with the rationale.
The Anatta doctrine in word of Buddha says the following: "Individual existence, as well as the whole world, are in reality nothing but a process of ever-changing phenomena which are all comprised in the five Groups of Existence. This process has gone on from time immemorial, before one’s birth, and also after one’s death it will continue for endless periods of time, as long, and as far, as there are conditions for it. As stated in the preceding texts, the five Groups of Existence—either taken separately or combined—in no way constitute a real Ego-entity or subsisting personality, and equally no self, soul or substance can be found outside of these Groups as their ‘owner’. In other words, the five Groups of Existence are ‘not-self’ (anatt ), nor do they belong to a Self (anattaniya). In view of the impermanence and conditionality of all existence, the belief in any form of Self must be regarded as an illusion. Just as what we designate by the name of ‘chariot’ has no existence apart from axle, wheels, shaft, body and so forth: or as the word ‘house’ is merely a convenient designation for various materials put together after a certain fashion so as to enclose a portion of space, and there is no separate house-entity in existence: in exactly the same way, that which we call a ‘being’ or an ‘individual’ or a ‘person’, or by the name ‘I’, is nothing but a changing combination of physical and psychical phenomena, and has no real existence in itself"
Jackson Cox
>REAL? yes. humanity has just romanticized them throughout the ages.
Ryder Edwards
You're not going to get a real answer from soyboy christcucks who have never thought about the ramifications of their own retarded beliefs
Wyatt Cook
>yes. in what form? Do you have properties of the physical body in the afterlife (like enjoyment, bliss, pain, torment)? If so, how can that be when the core thesis is that the PHYSICAL body and it's properties don't pass on at death?
Hunter Anderson
Hell is real and it is called Tasmania. Post-card perfect views hide the pain, every inch of movement dictated by red tape. And weather most inconvenient. Interstate tourists have a death rate something like 90 times local people. Must be the bad roads ;)
Juan Phillips
Revelation 22:1 says the following: "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever."
Do christians ITT believe this? Will there be a new physical earth with all the people who already died on it?
Jackson Sanders
We have this ages old joke here in my country. >A guy drives in his brand new car from the money he stole, drunk. He is going as usually to the nightclub, to get him some prostitutes. He takes a wrong turn, hits the tree and dies on the spot. And of course, because of his life, he is going straight to hell. He is greeted by the devil himself, who shows him around. In the first room, he sees a giant orgy full of beautiful women in what seems a luxurious roman spa. He suspiciously asks the devil: "This is hell, right?". Devil confirms, this is hell. Next room is a typical English club, full of gentlemen leading highly interesting debates, slowly drinking expensive alcohol and smoking luxurious cigars. The guy is without words. He asks the devil again, if this is really the hell. Devil once again confirms. Third room is a huge cave, full of lava and brimstone and fire, where thousands upon thousands are tortured, skinned alive and burned by the devils with horns. "Now, this is hell I was told about!" proclaims the guy. The devil bemusedly answers: "This one is for the Christians only. They like it this way."
You can take the moral of the story is that after you die, you go whenever you like, whenever you wanted during your life. And you still there, until your soul is purified of "you" and sent to another round to learn more. Or you go somewhere else, if there is nothing to learn anymore.
Eli Young
It is my supreme hope that no hell exists. No crime can be so severe that the suffering caused by the evils exchanged in 100 or less years of a human life should ever be weighted by the pain of eternity.
Even worse is to think that such an overzealous punishment could be attributed for any crime at all is that it might be assessed for no crime.
If hell exists it is both unjust in its application and unjust in its sentencing.
In my view Christianity has not come to terms with this.
Ayden Scott
>after you die, you go whenever you like to be honest the buddhist doctrine on this is oddly relieving - I would like to completely disappear after I'm done, since even if the physical properties of the body continued into an afterlife, it would either have no variation (essentially a drug-induced coma) or it would get boring.
It does sound a lot like a scare, in order to make more people self-govern in a certain way to avoid the threat
John Morales
That thing is adorable.
Sebastian Thompson
>fuzzy wuzzy animals wont break your hand with their 200psi bite
yeah nah
Gabriel Price
I didn't say it was safe or that I had some retarded compulsion to jam my hand in its mouth I just said it was adorable, and it was
Ethan Hall
Hell is real but its only for sinners and blacks. Be a good White man and you will find peace in the afterlife. Whites are God's true creation, made in His image. If we are good people and lead good, positive lives, we will see Him again. Blacks are the creation of Evil and Jews obviously help spread It's word. They will burn for their sins.
Michael Kelly
does america not have skunks? do racoons not cause rabies? fluffy creatures are either bags of piss waiting to explode or a series of deep lacerations. I guess it's nice that you can see something positive in the image :/
William Sanchez
>Hell is real but its only for sinners and blacks. okay but this doesn't answer any of the questions presented in the OP
>Whites are God's true creation, made in His image According to the bible, MAN is made in his image, and whosoever calls on jesus goes to heaven, including blacks
Andrew Hughes
We have both, but neither are considered more than minor pests - physical harm from either is exceptionally rare. We don't get the badass dangerous animals you guys have running around, so maybe that's what's throwing me off from seeing them as hazards. Raccoons are pretty cute though. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna shoot one if I see it in my yard, but still.
Aiden Miller
At least a sinner is better than an inbred retard.
Asher Lee
>Do you have properties of the physical body in the afterlife There's a reason the torment of hell has been compared to physical sufferings. That's the best way to explain it to people for who most sufferings and pleasures are physical (think about the Muslims and their X virgins). It's true now but were even more true at the time Hell was described more precisely and they doubled it because at that times, physical pain was a part of everyday life. But from a Catholic perspective, the worst suffering in Hell is being separated definitively from God (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church IV 1035)
Ryan James
Subjective emotions are 100% virtual, just like the digital content of your browser.
Physical feelings can happen without the correspondent physical parts. I don't know if there can be any biovirtual subjective experience without the physical pillars that enable it...
Daniel Scott
They look kinda similar, with one exception. Klara Hitler was much more beautiful.
John Collins
Hell is real. I've been there. It's not a fiery place, but instead unbelievably cold, empty, void and dark.
Muslims try to recreate a glimpse of it with their black cube filled with darkness and nothingness. They all circle around it, which tells you much about the intentions of that so-called religion. In truth, every muslim is a nihilist - believing no fun, no music, no pictures should be allowed. They would forbid the sun to shine if they could.
Caleb Lopez
can you explain to me what immaterial pain is? When you have no thoughts, no pain receptors, no brain, how do you experience pain? If it doesn't FEEL like anything (because FEELING is an attribute of the physical/material body) then how can it even be called pain?
>Physical feelings can happen without the correspondent physical parts. Wrong, if we destroy the part of your brain that controls for pain, you cannot feel pain
Mason Hall
No need to speak of crimes and punishment perhaps when it can be easily summed up that people go to hell because they chose satan. Think of the punishments of hell as satans reward for doing his bidding on earth. In the biblical story I think it is written satan did not want to bow down to adam, accept adam as being superior to him, thus it only makes sense that satan would vehemently hate humans who blindly choose to serve him, as satan would do anything to get back to God, that plus God's judgement is part of the horrors of hell I think.
Ryder Scott
Although some say while a person is alive there's still time to repent, I wonder if satan had a choice to stop or keep rebelling. If anything he condemned himself through his conscience perhaps.
>Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
Colton Morgan
Have you ever used DMT or Ayahuasca? The experience exists solely in your mind yet there is a very real physical feeling to whats going on around you. I've had experiences where entities entered my body and tinkered with it and I felt every movement they made. Our concept of physical feeling can absolutely exist without a body and many scholars from numerous religions will argue that the concept of the afterlife is an extension of the DMT experience. If you want a hint of what the afterlife is like, I suggest you try it. You get to see it for 10 minutes and its not what you think it is.
Also if blacks were allowed in heaven then it wouldn't be heaven, would it?
Kevin Barnes
Hell = gehenna = large burning trash dump in Jerusalem Sinners are literally trash, disposable and to be forgotten. Lake of fire =/= Hell
Ayden Bell
I'm a very sensitive person, and about 6 years ago I broke a girls heart (not on purpose). Since then i'm suffering attacks from evil spirits. Never believed in these things. But now i'm turning to Christ for help.
Alexander Stewart
If hell is real then why the fuck do the Christian gods create seven sins in the first place? What’s the sense of creating evildoers and then send them straight to hell when they die? Does that make Jesus an ignorant fool and a hypocrite?
If you christfags love your god so much, you should think of him better than that. Maybe if there’s any God at all, then everyone deserves a place in heaven. Especially evildoers. God created evil in this world so that they would balance out with the good ones, because what the fuck of a boring place the world could have been when there’s no good versus evil? What’s so good about a book when all characters are goodfags sucking each other’s dick and no villain? What’s the point of even living without negativity? Evildoers are condemned to play their role, the bad guy, and be rejected by society. They should deserve even better heavenly treatment than goodfags, who were born with silver spoons in hand and live a comfortable life.
Stop being retards, christfags, and think just for a bit. Hell is a retarded idea.
Justin Morris
Find true regret for your actions, and you will be forgiven.
Jacob Edwards
You don't lose your body in heaven. That belief is gnostic and heretical. In heaven your body is resurrected in perfect form.
Ryan Wilson
You're already dead. This is hell.
Jeremiah Long
Pray, repent, make amends. What have you done to this girl?
Ayden Powell
I've told you why heaven and hell were compared to physical experiences, that's all. Of course if you consider that the mind is only a physical thing, then the idea of an afterlife makes no sense at all.
Liam Lewis
No
You reach heaven on Earth by being woke as fuck. Hell is just a metaphor for being remembered in a bad light by those whose lives you affected.
Jacob Baker
just accept that youre an autistic retard and the demons will go away.
Liam Long
The mind is a physical thing. That is standard Christian teaching.
Jace Kelly
They are probably not demons, but spirits of relatives trying to avenge the girl for the evil this dude committed.
Jordan Barnes
You have to offer up a human sacrifice in your place. If a virgin you will proceed to receive powers as well.
Jace Jones
This is hell. Death is heaven.
Christopher Wright
Only if you are a trap or an weeabo faggot.
Kevin Hernandez
i don't think so. both outcomes are terrible. if it doesn't exist, i disappear. if it exists, i'll get bored because eternity.
Jackson Howard
>faggot
Nolan Clark
listen, were all getting new dirt bikes in the after life, and were gonna ride all day.
Gabriel Collins
But what if that eternity allowed you to explore the things you didn't have a chance to while living.
Cook/eat exotic foods Watch every movie ever Hang out with your friends Explore new ideas Shoot that gay porno you and your uncle were talking about
You know, everything!
Evan Baker
Your entire argument is against the interface by which the soul experiences the material world. Translating some best death experience into real world language will filter through real world experience. I'm saying your argument is weak because it doesn't deal with the soul, only the way in which ours supposedly interfaces with our body. Try again
Ian Nguyen
Sounds comfy to use dirt bikes on the clouds
Evan Cook
I am actually content with there being nothing after death. I don't know why, but the idea that I just cease to exist sounds comforting.
Carson Thompson
Maybe because you want to die already .
Oliver Jenkins
yeah dude, but... eternity! infinity is such a scary concept to me. i'll be content too, but right now it's scary to imagine.
Couple of days ago I woke up with that feeling of being incredibly content with ceasing to exist. You know that small timeframe when you just wake up but you aren't fully awake? That's when I had the thought and I felt like I was ready to go in that moment. Not sure why I had that experience.
James Wright
the physical body is just a vessel to your feelings, soul and your spirit
Jason Smith
Forget religion finnbro. There is no true religion; many people experienced "enlightenment". Depending on where you are born people give it different names. The third eye, the eye of horus, the zohar, water-walking, the nirvana, true level etc...
Words are artificial constructs and language is a prison. It's the best that we have but it is de facto limited and the meaning of words is fluid in time. But scriptures stay the same.
Concepts like heaven and hell are motivators for normies and spiritualy weak individual to live a "virtous" life according to the scriptures they adhere to. Humanity is flawed, and what we see, hear and feel are limited again. What is light? Particles going at the speed of light captured by the eye and converted into images by your brain. You are only given a certain spectrum to see. What is sound? Vibrations of the air particles going at the speed of sound captured by the ear drum and converted into signals for your brain to interpret. Once again, it is a limited spectrum that we are given to hear. What is the feeling of touch for example? A nerve sending an electrical signal for your brain to interpret. Once again, you can't feel everything. You don't feel the light particles coming into contact with your skin as long as the exposure is low enough (sunburns) or vibrations as long as the level of decibels is low enough.
The body is a jailcell, reality is a lie.
Brody Mitchell
Who knows, but I'll tell you what... The universe will not exist forever... Googol of years after Heat Death, the universe will eventually be ripped apart (eventual right combination of chance and serendipity of perfect possibility).
Will it recycle it all and oscillate? Will it be siphoned by another universe? Will it bring us all back to the source?
Austin Price
You go back at the source when you die anyway.
Aaron Lopez
lol that is what i call a panic attack i always fight it i think its god telling you are destined for hell = cease to exist
Leo Parker
No. Of course they aren't real.
To think there is a mote of space dust at the very edge of existence turning under the influence of whether or not I transgress a rule that didn't exist five thousand years ago is pure solipsism. The Universe is not a moral test for Homo Sapiens, nor is the concept of the Afterlife by extension. It's laughable how self-important that sort of myth is.
We still employ it because it makes people feel better when someone they like or love dies. Or hate, I suppose.
William Ward
>in what form?
Here is your answer
When you die your soul(not your body) goes threw a first judgement.There they weight the bad and the good things you did.If the good things are more your soul go to Heaven and if not your soul goes to Hades.
Now after the Judgement Day(Return of Jesus) you will be judged for a second time(if you are dead already) by this time your physical form and your soul will become one once more.Now if you have done more good things than bad then your body and soul goes to the Kingdom of Heaven if not then to Hell
Notice there is a difference between Heaven and The Kingdom of Heaven and Hell and Hades.Hell and Kingdom of Heaven does not exist yet or they exist and they are empty
Benjamin Green
yeah you came from God and go to God, the problem is if you reject him he will reject you
Robert White
I read that in Alex McFarlands voice
Aaron Thompson
that aspect you describe is true, it's one of the main 3 manifestations as described by holy fathers (burn, cold and/or the unsleeping worm. what did you experience to say "you've been there" though?
Xavier Clark
i love that europe is being conquered by islam, too bady Christians arent as strong, but better than stupid atheist >nothings matter bro literally worst tier of stupidity
Colton Hall
>When you die your soul(not your body) goes threw a first judgement.
If jesus judges you when you die how does he apear on toast in ohio at the same time you get judged ? what if 2 die at the same time or 1000
checkmate christian
Lucas Roberts
This is Hades you are referring not Hell
Hell does not exist right now and if it's exist ot's empty for now
Cameron Carter
It wasn't a panic attack. On the contrary, I was calmer and happier than I was in years. It just felt weird.
Julian Peterson
you are god. you experience everything at all times when you die
John Garcia
Why would Pisces return in an Age of Aquarius? Moses got pretty angry when people were still faffing about with Age of Taurus stuff when itt passed, you'd think we'd have learned to expect something new in every Age by now?
Jesus isn't coming back, chaps, his Age passed in the 1970s. Whoever or whatever Aquarius turns out to be has yet to be revealled. Let's hope it involves a purge by tsunami, eh?
Kayden Jones
hell is real, I fucking live in it, but it happens to get rather cold
Luke Harris
In the Bible it says "Ο Θεος ειναι πανταχου παρον".It means "God is everywhere"
Dominic Thompson
Yes. Now GTFO
Dylan Hughes
I like you. What you mean by rejecting God is attachment to the human condition right? Aquarius is not a person but a set of values. Why the 70's though?
Jace Sanders
>ARE HEAVEN AND HELL REAL? yes, as far as I can tell
Thomas Davis
Then you are ready for eternal death, i do not know how some people do it only it scares the shit out of me hence panick attack ,it increases the more depressed i am
Ethan Edwards
The light from your screen must be absrobed by your skin before it reaches your eyes, m8? That's not what I typed. Shit matters, and indeed those rules made halfway up a volcano five thousand years ago are generally a good guide to civil society. Yet breaking them is not going to cast you into a pit of fire after you die; it's going to fuck up society.
Adrian Kelly
As summarized by fr. Serafim Rose in his book the soul after death, in numerous testimonies the soul can indeed see (one of the main senses) and talk/think (see: Logos). So the soul can definitely see in the non-material domain without of course the use of eyes, which as I can think of, are the instruments to adapt to the material domain. It's really hard to get a grasp of it, hence all examples reference a physical world analogy. BTW its a very interesting read.
Gabriel Perez
Jesus and Buddha agree: "The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the Earth yet men do not see it."
turn off your random thought machine and then it becomes obvious
t. 30 day zen retreat, 20 years zen practice
Wyatt Gomez
if you reject Jesus, you reject God
what do you think happens after life? the light goes out? why do you care about order in this life if there's no other life?
Asher Hernandez
Have you seen them, or are just metaphorically talking about our own shitty world?
Tyler Robinson
Neither heaven nor hell are real. Human creations entirely.
Death leads the "soul" back to the ephemeral state from which you came.
Luke Russell
They was when the stellar calendar turned. We are literally in the arc of Aquarius right now. Jesus even mentions it in the bible, cryptically of course. He admitted his influence would end with the water carrier. He was the manifestation of Pisces, allegedly. Which is why there are so very many allusions to fish, fishing and fishermen in the NT, amoung other more esoteric clues.
I was able to see with the soul. You get to be one with the universe again, you feel the intelligence of what as been called God. My eyes where closed but I saw. Colours that don't exist, sounds that are not audible to humans. You still feel too; those feelings are thoughts, like doubt and uncertainty. I believe that is what has been called angels and demons. You see the infinitely small of a large scale, you are everywhere and nowhere. You become one with God again.
John Scott
>God is all loving and all powerful but the 99.9999999% of the human race that happened not to be born in a time and place to hear of the right spin-off spin-off spin-off religions sub-sub-sub denomination that is actually the right one are being tortured in hell or eternity
what do you think? is this real? or a story humans made up to influence other humans?
eternity is not a 'long time', eternity is outside time, eternity is always 'now', cf: Eckhart Tolle, and The Perennial Philosophy and Einstein
Luke Carter
literally tell me who havent heard it by now, you have heard it and dont believe it anyway, you are get the worst ending bro, knowing the truth you reject it
hindians worship the devil have you seen their Gods? literally demons, with serpents on top of their heads
Adam White
Tolle is very good. I was speaking of Buddhism. Demons for you maybe, because your idea of right and wrong, holy and unholy was shaped by the society you grew up in and your personnal choices/interpretation. There is no right or wrong, but positive and negative.
Jackson Ward
Good question, and one very difficult to put into words. I've lost object reality before: that's when your perception of solid objects and even solidity itself dissolves. It's quite traumattic, you think "oh shit, I've overdoses on these fucking mushrooms, I'm going to die and be in the papers as anti-drug propaganda, shit shit shit".
What is beyond solidity is quite difficult to explain. You don't have a body, obviously, yet you are. You have perceptions similar to your senses, but they are not your senses. You're also stripped of your ego somewhat, butt you're still you and during the experience you still fear not being you, as if you were dying, yet it's all very abstract. You are in a "new world" where you perceive the interplay between chaos and order and can interact with both. Like I typed, it's difficult to explain. There's a lot of light, and a lot of dark, and indeed a very strong urge to approach perceived light sources, they are beautiful and compelling. There's more but drug trip reports are tedious, I appreciate, but I will mention the timelessness of it all. Things happened in sequence, but there was no percepttion of "time passing", like time itself was par of the illusion that had stripped away.
TL;DR? we're not actually alive, this physical world is anything but, and when we check out the illusion strips away. No morality court, no angelic lawyers, or weights with feathers on them. I imagine we plug ourselves back into the illusion, somehow.
Jaxon Young
>Christian gods create seven sins in the first place
something something free will
Carter Roberts
Hell could be a learning place to straighten your soul.
Colton Morales
>Have you ever used DMT or Ayahuasca? No but I'd like to, unfortunately the import control is very strict in Finland and the punishments are severe, so it's not really worth the shot to try to get it
>Also if blacks were allowed in heaven then it wouldn't be heaven, would it? I'm afraid the bible disagrees with you, it says WHOSOEVER calleth upon the name of the lord, not "just whites".
>body and soul goes to the Kingdom of Heaven ok so it IS a physical place then?
Daniel Nguyen
I'd say one should be very careful with those experiences. From what I've read, a true spiritual experience of such kind would be only achieved by fasting, prayer and pure heart. Also, the number of demons surrounding earth is numerous, and as holy fathers say, it's actually a gift from God that we cannot see the spirits / demons, so as to be easier for us to do the little thing we are asked to do on this earth by Jesus Christ's teachings. I can't judge, but i am just guessing that one should be careful with such things. How you managed to get to what you describe?
Hudson Lopez
there is truth and lies, Jesus is the truth, if you think he's wrong, you are going to waste all your life trying to find the awnser that you already rejected, it's not about where i was born, im from Argentina, why would i be following a abrahamic religion? it's not about the place or your cultre, it's about God, it's about Jesus
Hudson Ward
I was going to write a wall of text explaining how dumb you are but I'm too lazy for that
Chase Anderson
>it's looks like we are in some kind of illusion, created by someone >but when we die nothing matters you are just confused
Matthew Morris
Our brain is a filter. We squish ourselves into this flesh prison to experience linear time and something other than pure bliss for a while. Why? Because you have cause and effect here, which turns into lessons learned, which you take back with you when you’re released from your body. If you beat your dick all day every day it’s just not as good anymore, same with eating your favorite food all the time, etc. We come here to experience the re-entry to bliss, because after you’ve been deprived of something you really want for a while, it’s so much better when you get it. >our entire life is just edging for death
Connor Fisher
>In heaven your body is resurrected in perfect form. And what is the perfect form then? If you are born with downs syndrome, is your physical body in heaven then un-downs-syndromed?
What if you're 5"2 as a man? Does god make you 6"2 in heaven?
there is no amount of things that wouldn't get boring if you have an eternity to do it. There simply isn't enough variation.
I don't get what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the thinking property is in fact one and the same with soul/spirit? If so, why does it get weaker or stronger depending on the material of the brain?
Jeremiah Rivera
heaven and hell are not places but states of being that we translate to upon death