The more I read about him the more conflicted I am. On one hand he was a strong leader who defended his nations interests, protected the faith and fucked up the Irish but on the other hand he was a Parliamentarian, messed up the monarchy and fucked with the Scots.
May Cromwell and Trevelyan burn in hell forever and may not a glass of whiskey cross their throat, a pretty girl cross their glance or their descendants see anything other than utter poverty.
Gavin Wood
He let the Jews back into England, setting the stage for the destruction of Western civilization.
Blake Harris
Afaik, he invited them back because he was under the false impression (the same impression Luther was under until he became woke) that Jews would convert to Christianity and become normal people. His problem was underestimating Jews.
Brandon Johnson
>Irish Opinion discarded
Nathan Martinez
>Said the leaf
Cromwell was a monster by anyone's standards. Even the English eventually decided he'd gone too far and posthumously executed him. He even banned Christmas for fuck's sake. He's one of the most contemptible figures in history. He practiced scorched earth colonization, pretty much for no reason whatsoever, since he had a far better equipped and trained army.
Lincoln Powell
this, letting the usurers in is unforgivable
Ryder Morales
>In September 1649, he justified his sacking of Drogheda as revenge for the massacres of Protestant settlers in Ulster in 1641, calling the massacre "the righteous judgement of God on these barbarous wretches, who have imbrued their hands with so much innocent blood."[59] However, Drogheda had never been held by the rebels in 1641—many of its garrison were in fact English royalists.
Motherfucker didn't particularly care who he slaughtered.
Jackson Taylor
>Cromwell was a monster fuck off he was a hero for the ENGLISH people
Brody Miller
I mean, seriously, even Loyalists in Northern Ireland don't like him, and he aligned broadly with their agenda. That's what a loathsome cretin he was.
Andrew Parker
Again, >Irish Your fucking republican schools teach you that he was a monster.
Charles Bailey
What was that?
Anthony Edwards
my opinion has been finalized
Owen Gutierrez
Empire fetishist Leafposters always crack me up. You're kind of like the mirror image of plastic paddies or weeaboos or something. You think you're some far flung son of a great empire, but you have no idea where to direct this belief, so you settle on extreme and bizarre interpretations of history which not even the most ardent imperialists in Britain attempt to express these days. It's fairly pathetic desu. Have you ever even been to England?
Is there a term for this? Engleafs?
Dylan Campbell
Go home, taig, you're drunk
Jack Nelson
History teaches us that he was a monster. I mean, his almost autistic devotion to Anglican protestantism and contempt for his fellow man pretty much indicate there was something seriously mentally wrong with him, and as I said before, *even the English decided he was a cunt and went to the trouble of EXECUTING HIM when he was already dead*.
William White
So if you're such a Cromwell worshipper, where do you stand on the monarchy?
Fuck the Queen, surely, right?
Xavier Davis
Not for any of the reasons you think. That was done because the monarchy returned and Cromwell has fucked the monarchy.
Lucas White
I'm not a Cromwell worshipper, I made it clear in my OP that I'm conflicted on the man, I'm only defending aspects of his personality against stupid Irish bullshit.
Jace Thompson
kill yourself
Parker Roberts
His reputation on his death and immediately after was abysmal, both in the UK and Ireland. Drogheda, the Christmas fiasco, pissing on the British traditions and ruining the Anglican Church were the main charges. Alongside regicide.
After the Glorious Revolution when Charles I descendent's genuinely did convert to Catholicism people began looking at him again. Carlyle liked him, people focused on him as a proto-Democrat and republican idealist.
After the Victorians his reputation started to go downhill again, or at least become more measured. In Ireland he is hated (actually partly unfairly, most of the massacres as someone has mentioned here were of English settlers so the genocide charge is false), and in England most historians like him but temper that with he was a bad guy. Anti Catholicism and Democracy bumming are common in British historians.
In my view, he was a social disaster, as confirmed by the response in his lifetime, but a fiercely competent general and leader, a religious maniac, and he possessed a certain kind of vision for the future that was authoritarian and in a way modernist. Calling him a Fascist is annoying but does happen, but he is interesting.
Oh, and he readmitted the Jews to England after 400 years of Jew-free civilisation. Which is ((()))
Henry Allen
>During 1648, Cromwell's letters and speeches started to become heavily based on biblical imagery, many of them meditations on the meaning of particular passages. For example, after the battle of Preston, study of Psalms 17 and 105 led him to tell Parliament that "they that are implacable and will not leave troubling the land may be speedily destroyed out of the land". A letter to Oliver St John in September 1648 urged him to read Isaiah 8, in which the kingdom falls and only the godly survive. On four occasions in letters in 1648 he referred to the story of Gideon's defeat of the Midianites at Ain Harod.[46] These letters suggest that it was Cromwell's faith, rather than a commitment to radical politics, coupled with Parliament's decision to engage in negotiations with the king at the Treaty of Newport, that convinced him that God had spoken against both the king and Parliament as lawful authorities. For Cromwell, the army was now God's chosen instrument.[47] The episode shows Cromwell’s firm belief in "Providentialism"—that God was actively directing the affairs of the world, through the actions of "chosen people" (whom God had "provided" for such purposes). Cromwell believed, during the Civil Wars, that he was one of these people, and he interpreted victories as indications of God's approval of his actions, and defeats as signs that God was directing him in another direction.[48]
The guy was legitimately unhinged. I'm not even a republican, and many aspects of Anglo-Irish history and relations are exaggerated. Not Cromwell though.
Justin Allen
Which parts exactly?
The part where he cast both Britain and Ireland into turmoil which lasted decades, just because he was such an autistic dickwad, or the parts where he believed he was the representative of (((God's chosen people))) on Earth? Maybe it's the part where he decided to go in raw on all the cultural traditions which defined both Britain and Ireland, and fostered a mutual hatred which lasted for centuries beyond his death, because "muh catholics".
Also his false reputation as a Republican ignores how he dismissed multiple parliaments (bare bones etc) that he set up to run the country, and having deposed the King for being an anti-Parliamentary autocrat, became one himself.
Now I don't like democracy and do like authoritarianism but the experience of Cromwell put the British of radical politics to this day to some extent.
He's still in front of Parliament though. Think they put him there as a warning to the Queen...
Justin Ross
Thanks
t. Paddy who lives in Canada, back in 5 days to plough your already wrecked slags
Levi Young
Some of us are proud of our history faggot
Nathaniel Morales
where in Canada I'll smash your face in bud
Nicholas Turner
Christmas clamp-down may not have been personally ordered but it perfectly sums up his puritanical and socially invasive attitudes, which are poison to English people.
I am not detracting from his reputation as a soldier and a statesman in the early days, but the Protectorship was a fucking disaster. Only the Victorians have ever thought otherwise.
Jaxson Smith
Bring it on, taig
Lucas Diaz
>likes that he fucked with the irish >dislikes he fucked with the scots
you really cant have an opinion if you dont know who and what your talking about
Dylan Ward
you are hon hon
Wyatt Johnson
As sympathetic as I am towards radical Protestant theocracy (I'm not joking) he was a republican and that is not something that can be forgiven.
Bentley Flores
GTA
Bring it cunt, I'm stocked and loaded
Gabriel Bennett
Oh I know. Trying to analyze him through the lens of any particular political ideology is completely futile. His motivation was purely whatever extreme and retarded philosophy would allow him to piss in as many people's business as possible, with himself on top. Nothing was ever good enough, Christian enough, or pure enough for him.
Even look at his features for goodness sake. The small eyes, thin lips, lack of creases on the upper lip. If that isn't foetal alcohol syndrome I don't know what is.
Christopher Stewart
Respect this, but Cromwell is a bit dubious. I actually sympathise with Charles I a lot, and II, they were maybe a bit too decadent to be taken seriously in the religious time they were in but they were good people in my reading of it. Cromwell was brilliant, but puritanism is not a British trait at all. Anglo Protestants are moderates by nature.
Oliver Fisher
I also live in the GTA
Parker Martin
>GTA confirmed shitskin fuck off
Justin Hill
I associate that kind of puritanistic protestantism with Ulster. English protestants are moderate, Ulster Protestants are bible thumpers
Nathaniel Taylor
>Scots try to invade England >Fucks up the Scots
Why is that bad? Pleb
Colton Nguyen
Little pussy bitch
Come fight. I'll even put birdshot in the 12g and leave the cumshot as a kneecap
Jonathan Garcia
reported to OPP have fun losing all your guns faggot
Logan Garcia
>z
Brody Clark
>guns Just like a fucking irishman. I thought we were gonna slap fight like real men
Jaxon Roberts
Good luck reporting an Irish IP and the rerouting through Canadians fagboy
As usual, Canadians being little bitches. You cunts are so easy to tell what to do, no wonder you're cucks within your own country
Chase Martinez
>real men >leaf Doesn't really ring through Chang
Brody Johnson
Lmfao, you also live in Canada, retard. I wasn't born here either. So how am I any different than you as far as being Canadian?
Luis Hernandez
Canada's history is being America's hat. Go bow to queen bootlicker. At least Ireland has remained free for it's history.
Eli Cox
Utterly despicable. You can thank the Puritans for all the progressive moralizing we have to deal with today. And Charles I was a good dude.
Colton Campbell
>Ireland has remained free for it's history mutt education
Carter Reed
Canada is a British / Irish / French colony
Napalm dodgers will face the rope for unlawful residence
Anthony Phillips
He started the process of opening up England to the Jews, but it was a process and not only Cromwell. More than anything, he was a crypto-Jew himself, and that's why he was willing to genocide the Irish
Andrew Bell
Lol. Good one Chang or is it achmed?
Ian Watson
He was all about Jihad before Jihad was cool.
Julian Rogers
Smelly, dumb Roundhead scum Betrayed his king He's a bum
Ryder Carter
Messed with the Clan's " North of the Wall " ? );
Lucas Watson
>Defended the faith You protties should all have died with Charles V. A pity he didn't finish the job.
Ian Campbell
Canada is British and French, not fucking Irish. I was born in Germany and am an ethnic German.
Robert Jackson
>[WORLDSTARS IN GAEILGE AND ENGLISH WITH FRENCH SUBTITLES]
Nathan Thompson
>At least Ireland has remained free for it's history.
Adam Carter
We're OK with it down here, neighbour.
Nolan Brooks
It makes sense why you're so tense. A word of friendly advice: Germans are very good at starting fights, but not so good at finishing them.
Daniel Russell
You Americans are lovably stupid. You are like that retarded cousin everyone pretends to take serious. Never change.
Henry Taylor
There are 5 symbols on the roof of Canadian parliament
Scottish Thistle Welsh Dragon English Lion French Fleur de Lis
and
Irish Shamrock / Harp
Your very parliament is covered in your subservience, both on the ceiling and in the art everywhere in Ottawa.
Jack Carter
LOL you leaf retard, and it says that right on your fucking banner.
Gabriel Kelly
I don't even know what country your flag represents. Maybe if you post here more you will become relevant. ;^)
Aiden Hernandez
Ireland was a part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland during much of this country's history.
Luke Hall
This is, in all seriousness, how you get Americans. The US as we know it is a child of Cromwell and his followers.
Adrian Nelson
Who let the mensa into the thread?
Austin Robinson
The South, maybe. The rest of the country is such a mixed bag, the legacy of the puritans is lost on it
James Ortiz
Jesus Christ, user.
Zachary Torres
The Irish who settled were protestants. The relatives of modern Ulster Prots, not your kin. Irish Catholics didn't come in any great quantity until the famine.
Jaxon Hill
Comfy thread bros, gives me hope.
Parker Foster
Ambassy of Oral-B. We are a repressed people, driven from our lands by the British.
Connor Hughes
The Brits should be thanking you for King Billy
Brody Martinez
I should have specified the Colonial and immediate pre-Revolutionary periods, but yes, point taken.
Chase Price
Toronto alone was > 50% Catholic after the exodus in 1850
1850 was also UKofGBaI
You also fail to realise that there is little to no animosity between N.Irish and S.Irish today. I sat 6.5 hrs home in a plane and 1.5 hrs in the airport drinking with 2 Proddies from Belfast. Good lads. Had a blast. They're on the same flight as me going back, so we've agreed to meet in the airport and have a few more drinks on the way back.
You are completely ignorant in all aspects.
Tyler Howard
>Opinion on Oliver Cromwell? the fact that you can go around openly scheming against the power of a king and not get immediately killed is telling. I'll have to read shakespeare to get a grip on the time period for any further opinion.
Aiden Gray
Cromwell is one of the greatest figures in English history. He wasn't without his flaws, but he laid the foundations for England to become a world power by firmly establishing the concept of representative government, as opposed to autocracy. This was one of the key features that made England stand out from the rest of Europe during the critical period that would lead to the beginning of the industrial revolution.
And as far as his flaws are concerned, most of them are hugely over exaggerated as a result of propaganda against him. The amount of misinformation surrounding Cromwell's life perhaps greater than any other person in English history. For example:
>He even banned Christmas for fuck's sake. Cromwell didn't personally ban Christmas. During the civil war Parliament - since all it's less puritan members had left to join the king - tried several times to ban Christmas. This was before Cromwell came to power. After his victory in the civil war, he probably approved of the ban on Christmas, given that as Lord Protector he would have had the power to veto it, but it was still Parliament that originated the ban. It was hardly an unusual step for hardcore protestants - the Scottish kirk had banned Christmas as far back as the 1560s, over eighty years before Cromwell came to power.
Robert Myers
Also the Tudor Dynasty was a mistake. Henry should have never broke with the Catholic Church
Lincoln Bell
>Cromwell is one of the greatest figures in English history So much so, that you literally dug him up and post-humously executed him.
Aiden Sanders
We bullied everyone and kicked their asses. Our mistake was teaching the Brits our glorious ways of banking and finances. We are but a small tribe and weren't able to stop the Brits once they stole our tech.
Jackson Adams
Gave me a chuckle. You're not so bad.
Jace Roberts
Louis XIV should've send reinforcements to England and have crushed the opposition. Real shame their was too much rivalry between the monarchies of Europe.
Jack Reed
Gross. Terrible take.
Brandon Kelly
>You also fail to realise that there is little to no animosity between N.Irish and S.Irish today. I sat 6.5 hrs home in a plane and 1.5 hrs in the airport drinking with 2 Proddies from Belfast. Good lads.
Nice sample size stats Prof. Potato. I'll buy you a beer if you drag your flag around Ulster on a Sunday afternoon and confirm that no animosity theory of yours. Hahaha.
Noah Phillips
Cromwell had more power as Lord Protector than Charles ever had as a King
Gavin Reed
there*
12 years of practising English and I keep fucking up the basics.
Jackson Williams
Thank you for letting us steal the East India Company flag though - that was bro-tier.
Aaron Brooks
I go to Belfast every year for NYs and always have a great time. 5 years running. I've worked with everyone from ex-UVF and to ex-IRA, and we're all the same. I've sat down in a pub with both the former and the latter together, and everyone just went home having a good time.
Your idiocy is because of what you believe from your isolation chamber on the internet. You are ignorant and stupid, like most Canadians.
Jason Cook
Sorry McShane - gonna need to see some proofs on that.
Christopher Carter
My ancestors battled him.
Thomas Bailey
This. I like what he did to the Irish, but reversing the expulsion is unforgivable. Imagine world history if he hadn't let them back?
Juan Myers
k, thx Canacuck who has never met a white person, let alone an Irishman
> inb4 Be silent among your betters Chink
Caleb Scott
>He practiced scorched earth colonization Cromwell's time in Ireland was actually limited to a small number of sieges in the first year of the Irish war. The long guerrilla war - during which BOTH sides practised scorched earth tactics - was conducted by other English commanders since Cromwell was urgently needed back in England. He didn't even take the post of Lord Protector until the final months of the conflict, so he didn't have direct authority over those commanders.
Nor was it a tactic practised to enable colonisation - in the 17th century most armies didn't have adequate supply chains and were expected to 'live off the land' (i.e. loot whatever areas they passed through for supplies). English and Irish, Royalist and Parliamentarian - all sides tried to gain a many supplies for themselves as possible, and deny as much to the enemy as possible. It was just how warfare was conducted in those days, and wasn't carried out with any especial prejudice against the Irish (in fact, the conflict in Ireland was practically humane compared to what happened during the 30 years war).
Cromwell viewed the Royalists as having incited the Catholic Irish. Which by the time he arrived in Ireland was entirely true. Cromwell's dislike of the Irish is somewhat understandable when you know the context. In 1646 Charles I had been defeated and captured. The Civil War - the bloodiest war in English history, which had been hard fought by Cromwell - was over. But while Charles was negotiating to keep his crown - which Parliament and Cromwell were still willing to consider at that point - he secretly negotiated behind Cromwell's back with the Irish and the Scots. So the Irish and the Scots rose up in support of Charles, starting the second phase of the Civil War. You can see why Cromwell would be pretty fucking pissed.